From what I've seen, your spidey sense may not be wrong. Theres video of the NKP on youtube and its the same color.

I've also seen that light grey color on most if not all of the recently delivered Northerns.

Its mind boggling really. For 15 or so years Lionel used pretty much the same dark graphite for the smokebox.

What happened?

Heres a snapshot of locos I have. Spanning from the 2002 j3a, on the far left, to the 2015 heavy Mike on the right.

The heavy Mike is a "tad" lighter, but is still perfectly acceptable IMO.

Oh and I also used to own one of the previous run Legacy F12e's . It was also the same color.

( Solid runner, I should have kept it)

I’m a little curious if this’ll be a thing on the other recent LEGACY steamers will have this color gray, too.

As far as I remember, this color thing didn’t really become an issue until 2018 with the silver smoke box 2-8-0’s.

I think though the new 2020 light Mike’s have the more accurate graphite gray, or at least the Southern 4501 does, but don’t quote me on that.

I was actually considering the Black custom run B&O that is shown above but passed on it for precisely that reason. My backup plan is to pick up the NYC version if they didn't mess it up with the awful primer color. I'm anxiously awaiting an image of the NYC so I can pull the trigger. What a shame if they mucked it up and I have to pass on that one too. I know Muffins has some or had some. He's usually great about posting actual product photos so hopefully we will know something soon. I passed on the H10 also for the same reason. Looks really bad IMO, I don't really care if it's prototypical or not.

BTW, nice lineup RickO!

If you can live without whistle steam, Lionel has already made two NYC Legacy ten wheelers plus a TMCC version.

Pete

Great line up Rick.

It is unfortunate that they seem to be using way too much light gray. Most engines seem to have changed to sparkle light gray which sort of reminds me of battleships. As a kid I built a bunch without painting a drop of paint on most save the tan decks. That changed when I got the giant Missouri and used a ton of paint to get the color scheme right. Besides three different grays, there was steel, bronze, silver and a few others. Yeah, the waterline, and the bottom red too(forgot those).

If these steam engines had the gritty graphite colors, they should on the models. Why get the spray paint can of light gray out and slap that on the engine where it don't belong? Ugh!

I just unboxed my Rutland. Mind you I have 3 Northern Pacifics that have re lettered into Rutlands. Everyone is dead on about the smokebox color being what looks like light gray primer. Actually the Rutland featured a very dark smokebox. The original dark gray I would still paint over. The class lights now feature clear lenses. I’m not a fan of glowing LED’s on steamers. If the green can be shut off with the remote fine. If not. They will be unplugged like the majority of my steamers.

Well they got the black right. When I ordered it. I kind of new the lettering would be white. That’s how the Mogul was. The Rutland’s lettering was more of a silver or aluminum. My other 10 wheelers are lettered with Highball Graphics decals.  They deal with discriminating modelers and I’m sure they got it right. Lionel seems to have got the font right. It’s just not stretched out enough. I really didn’t want to do a re letter job. I was hoping weathering might fix it. I run these a lot as doubleheads so it’s going to stand out from the others. At some point when it’s out of warranty I’ll re do it. I have a re done NP that’s already numbered 79. I may leave that as is. Switch out the headlights and renumber the new one.

I only ran it a few feet. The start up sounds are new. If your into smoke. It’s a good one and plenty comes out the whistle. A few issues cosmetically if your into the prototype. For the money. Pretty reasonable with it’s features considering what other engines are selling for.

What got my curiosity was the Alco builders plate. My NP’s are Baldwins. The Alco is correct for the Rutland. Not sure of the other models in this run as far as builders plates. Do these vary from one run to another. Seeing the indent in the shell houses the builder plate they are not interchangeable.

I just put my NYC 1232 on the track and programed it in. The classification lights came on white and I can't seem to change them to green. I hit the AUX2 button and held it and no lighting menu came up. Am I doing something wrong?

How's the smokebox Skip?

@Randy_B posted:

How's the smokebox Skip?

Not really liking the gray.  Can't imagine who or what is making these horrible paint decisions. Here's the new one.

And here's the older one which I like much better.

SMH

@NYC Fan posted:

Not really liking the gray.  Can't imagine who or what is making these horrible paint decisions.

Seems like when MR left, he took the graphite smokebox paint code with him....

@RickO posted:

Seems like when MR left, he took the graphite smokebox paint code with him....

They got it right on the 1297 4-6-6T not too long ago. I really gripes me when, like with the VIsion Niagara, you open up the box thinking it's going to look like the catalog photo and instead of the joy you expected, you're first thought is, "I'd like to get this thing repainted."

Come on Lionel, fix that grey paint.   First thing I did with my J3 is send to Harry to weather it get rid of that light grey on the smoke box.  Glad these are coming in good working order though.

It looks like you can get the green class light housings from Lionel if you want them but that doesn't fix the paint. I guess I will try to pick up a 1258 - at least you have that one already. Thanks for the info. Do the lights look like your other steamers once they are on now? I assume the photo is from before you reset them to default.

That is just sad. I was all excited to get my 972 until I saw this post.

Despite the wrong color one the smokeboxes, does anyone have the Reading & Northern version. I'm sure that one may not have this issue with the smokebox color since it's black.

@NYC Fan posted:

Not really liking the gray.  Can't imagine who or what is making these horrible paint decisions. Here's the new one.

And here's the older one which I like much better.

SMH

Yeah, like they stopped at the first coat. I know some paints(room paint) always comes out lighter the first coat, so you need a few, but this is just downright ridiculous. Almost like they didn't mix up the paint. Really makes me sad.

I saw the NKP ten wheeler in the flesh yesterday. It’s definitely battleship gray. Ugh. It sticks out like a sore thumb against the backdrop of every other Legacy (or Premier) steamer (like Rick’s awesome lineup above). The shame is Lionel otherwise did a fantastic job with it - Steve put a ton of effort in his design and it is awesome with all the whitewalls and so forth from the prototype photo.

It’s maddening this continues to go on.  It also seems to be some releases and not others. If you flip through Mr. Muffins latest email, the ten wheelers and their auto primer paint are at the top, yet scroll down and Steve has other Legacy stuff for sale with the perfect graphite paint. It really is a roll of the dice.

My guess is Harry is building a paint mask for the ten wheelers.....

This does raise an interesting thought: are we here on the forum just a small vocal minority about these constant paint screwups and, for the most part, everyone else just shrugs and keeps buying without even lodging a complaint?  It seems like at some point if enough people were pizzzzed, it would get fixed. I refuse to believe this is hard to fix - they apparently just don’t want to or don’t feel the need to.

To the extent anyone is taking a poll, I would certainly vote to take the time used to make 2 or 3 of the Facebook shows and direct it toward fixing paint colors.

I know its annoying to have to consider a repaint but it would not be that difficult on this engine. Headlight and class lights come off. You only have mask off the grab rails, builders plates, and rest of the body. I use liquid masker on the small parts.

Pete

It must have something to do with the Mr. Muffin's Trains exclusive version. That is what the artwork for that one called for, and I think that's what confused the factory on the smokebox color.

@NYC Fan posted:

I just put my NYC 1232 on the track and programed it in. The classification lights came on white and I can't seem to change them to green. I hit the AUX2 button and held it and no lighting menu came up. Am I doing something wrong?

If you haven’t already figured it out just simply press the classification light “on” button again to change the color. Same goes with the one with “T” in it for the tender lights

@Peter Araujo posted:

It must have something to do with the Mr. Muffin's Trains exclusive version. That is what the artwork for that one called for, and I think that's what confused the factory on the smokebox color.

I don’t think that’s true. Every road name that has surfaced so far has the same battleship gray paint. The two special runs from Pat’s at the top of the thread, Skip’s NYC version, etc - they all have it.  

@Rider Sandman posted:

[snip]

This does raise an interesting thought: are we here on the forum just a small vocal minority about these constant paint screwups and, for the most part, everyone else just shrugs and keeps buying without even lodging a complaint?  It seems like at some point if enough people were pizzzzed, it would get fixed. I refuse to believe this is hard to fix - they apparently just don’t want to or don’t feel the need to.

While it doesn't change the fact that far too many Lionel engines are arriving with wrong paint schemes, this post (on 4/17/21) by 3rd Rail's Scott Mann indicates that unless someone is onsite to oversee the painting process, 3rd Rail's factory will not correct paint issues.

@sdmann posted:

Hi Folks,
[snip]

I'll tell you a little story of how I usually check all these paint schemes and roads.

I go to China, and after a few days of getting my bearings, they have a desk for me at their office in the small assembly factory. They present me painted samples of shells, which I  hold, and  look at them, and google pictures of prototypes, and review our data for the road name. I use my years of experience of seeing good and bad color matches, and I instruct the factory make changes and corrections on the spot.  We have a color library that we refer to when there is a question of accuracy. Some times it take 4 trips to the painter (downstairs) to get the color spot on. I usually am there through the most critical parts of production to catch not only their errors, but ours.

Now, after being stuck here, I get digital photos of color matching with samples chips. I get engine by engine views of each side, front and back and sometimes the tops of the finished models. It's too late to correct color variations as they tell me, "Everything is already painted". It's too late to correct detailing errors, "Everything is already assembled". When I see pictures of these models they are basically finished.

[snip]

I believe this is the situation Lionel has found themselves in with their factory/factories and unless Lionel decides to have someone onsite overseeing the painting process, the incorrect paint colors will continue.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I’m a little curious if this’ll be a thing on the other recent LEGACY steamers will have this color gray, too.

As far as I remember, this color thing didn’t really become an issue until 2018 with the silver smoke box 2-8-0’s.

I think though the new 2020 light Mike’s have the more accurate graphite gray, or at least the Southern 4501 does, but don’t quote me on that.

I think your timing estimate is about right - my first recollection was a 2018 special run NKP #757 Berk. All of the Berks, including it, showed up with the auto primer noses. Fortunately, there was a pre-order waiting list, so I was able to pass on mine without hurting the dealer.

I also think you’re correct on the latest Mike’s. There is another thread and they look great. It truly is a roll of the dice which makes it all the more frustrating - they clearly know how to do it right when they are paying attention.

@GregM posted:

While it doesn't change the fact that far too many Lionel engines are arriving with wrong paint schemes, this post (on 4/17/21) by 3rd Rail's Scott Mann indicates that unless someone is onsite to oversee the painting process, 3rd Rail's factory will not correct paint issues.

I believe this is the situation Lionel has found themselves in with their factory/factories and unless Lionel decides to have someone onsite overseeing the painting process, the incorrect paint colors will continue.

I think it’s a little different in Scott’s case versus the recurring problem on Legacy steamers. Every project Scott does is a specialty one-off and highly detailed. I 100% understand why close up and hands on monitoring is needed.  In this case, Lionel should be using the same color (graphite) on everything irrespective of the model or release (unless the box isn’t supposed to be graphite, of course). The point is, they should be able to get it right and repeat it - these aren’t one-offs - it should be the same thing over and again.

Also, inherent to this line of reasoning is that it’s actually the factory’s fault and not the designer putting paint codes on the drawings. Given how sloppy the editing is in the catalog, shipping schedule inaccuracies, etc, are we entirely sure the problem is “on the other end?”

The way I understand it and I could be wrong.  Working with Dave Olson on my mogul chaos many moons back.  Lionel gets production samples, when they can either green light the project or make changes.  Whether or not they are painted, I don’t know.  You would hope they are checked.

@Peter Araujo posted:

It must have something to do with the Mr. Muffin's Trains exclusive version. That is what the artwork for that one called for, and I think that's what confused the factory on the smokebox color.

Thing is the Hudson Mr. Muffin's ran had the right colors for the artwork, and Lionel okayed it. So it is the factory that is messing up the colors, much like the Polar Express awful colors, the weird off colors of everything that comes out that is supposed to be red, be blue, be green, they're all off what they should be. I was amazed that the Clown Challenger came out with the correct colors that the catalog had(or dang near close). So, someone is not doing something right with the paint, and there are no sample colors being looked at which is why we keep getting this mess. It's almost like Elf and the book Buddy's dad okays with two pages missing so the story doesn't make a lick of sense. What gives, right?

The most frustrating part to me is some get the nice color and some don't. I feel very fortunate I was able to get a PRR 2-10-4 and an NYC 4-6-6T with the more desirable color on the smokebox.

If you don't want to paint, some Neolube applied with a brush darkens the gray nicely. It goes on a little unevenly, but I like the effect. Here's my 2-8-0 after application:

@Professor Chaos posted:

If you don't want to paint, some Neolube applied with a brush darkens the gray nicely. It goes on a little unevenly, but I like the effect. Here's my 2-8-0 after application:

What color was the smoke box before? The "Niagara" silver or the Primer gray? This really looks great!

Wow, Chaos. That looks great!  What was the starter color?

Does the Neolube wear off or is it permanent? Does it come off when handled? Very dissatisfied with Lionel over this.

MELGAR

I didn't take a "before" picture, but it was a really ugly light gray.  You can see some blurry images of the same model here.

I'm not sure how durable the Neolube is. I think it's just graphite in an alcohol suspension, so it might come off with handling. But it's pretty easy to pick up the engine without touching the smokebox. And probably pretty easy to slather on more if it wears off.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I was amazed that the Clown Challenger...

I lol’d at that pretty hard.

A Weaver (brass) 10 wheeler from the early 1990's.   One of my first train purchases.

@Peter Araujo posted:

Despite the wrong color one the smokeboxes, does anyone have the Reading & Northern version. I'm sure that one may not have this issue with the smokebox color since it's black.

Got the Reading & Northern 4-6-0 today from Charles Ro. Smokebox is black! I was worried when I was unpacking it. The blue seams fine also. Here's a few photos:

Here is a video from YouTube:

    Paint looks fine to me.

JohnB    

@MELGAR posted:

Does the Neolube wear off or is it permanent? Does it come off when handled? Very dissatisfied with Lionel over this.

MELGAR

It does come off... but, it doesn't come off from handling it.  I use it to blacken the center rail on atlas track.  I touched a few sections up 3 or 4 months ago and they are still very dark... so its pretty durable.

@JohnB posted:

Here is a video from YouTube:

    Paint looks fine to me.

JohnB    

If you watch the full video, as it comes into direct lighting, it’s the same battleship gray as the other road names.

@Rider Sandman posted:

If you watch the full video, as it comes into direct lighting, it’s the same battleship gray as the other road names.

Rider,

Yes and I thought your two B&O looked fine as well. However you are the one who bought the engines and you do have the right to be disappointed with the gray color of the smoke box. They are not as bright as the silver smoke boxes of earlier engines for me I would be happy that I got a Legacy engine for under $700 bucks, has great sound, smoke and a steam whistle too. However that grey paint is an issue for you......too bad but look at the bright side there are ways of darkening it if you are really that upset. Good luck with the engines happy railroading.

JohnB

I wish that they would get the colors right, but I can live with it being off, its not going to kill me. They do need to get the colors right though. If they can get the clown Challenger right, they should be able to get graphite correct(it's just one color to apply, not fifteen).

Thanks, JohnB and you truly have a good and reflective perspective. To be clear, I didn’t buy the C&O versions, but did another road name. I have a great dealer who is gonna make it work. In truth, I’m frustrated because it’s a lingering problem that should be easy to fix, but you’re right, it certainly isn’t the end of the world. Have a good one.

I'm a big fan of the NYC Putnam Division, known as the "Ol' Put," and the new 10 Wheeler was a must have. I also collect photos of the Put, especially color photos. I would have liked Lionel to have used graphite paint on the smoke box, but there was apparently several shades in different photos. Very hard to tell what lies under the soot dirt and grime on some of these babies. Looking at #1274, I'd have to think this started out somewhat lighter.

Most thought Lionel did a good job on the previously issued #1258. I didn't hear any complaints.

A shade or two can make a big difference in our perception. Lionel should pay more attention to this detail. But, I am enjoying this locomotive, #1232 and the great Legacy features.

Another thread about Lionel screwing something up again.  When will it stop????  Well at least it isn't mechanical.  I like the graphite paint from the offerings from the 2000's.  Skip, nice photos, thanks for sharing.

The model itself is beautiful and seems to be a good representation of a New York Central F-12 - as run on "The Put." However, in my opinion, this is a toy train color that has no place on a costly, scale-sized, scale-detailed Legacy model which is shown with the correct color in the catalog. The only exception to that should be a buyer who orders a fantasy paint scheme. This did not happen with MTH. I'm disappointed in what I will be receiving. I hope you enjoy the model, Skip.

MELGAR

I know the smokebox gray color is a bit of a downer, but at least that can be fixed relatively easy.

How are the sounds on these locomotives, though? I think Lionel's 5 whistles/bells has the potential to really satisfy those who are very picky about these things (myself included).

@MELGAR posted:

The model itself is beautiful and seems to be a good representation of a New York Central F-12 - as run on "The Put." However, in my opinion, this is a toy train color that has no place on a costly, scale-sized, scale-detailed Legacy model which is shown with the correct color in the catalog. The only exception to that should be a buyer who orders a fantasy paint scheme. This did not happen with MTH. I'm disappointed in what I will be receiving. I hope you enjoy the model, Skip.

MELGAR

Thanks! I do agree with you 100%. For the price we pay for these models, They should at minimum stay true to the catalog depiction. I agree also that MTH did not usually let this happen, however, their first PS2 Dreyfuss Hudson was way too light, but they corrected that in the second release.

@MELGAR posted:

The model itself is beautiful and seems to be a good representation of a New York Central F-12 - as run on "The Put." However, in my opinion, this is a toy train color that has no place on a costly, scale-sized, scale-detailed Legacy model which is shown with the correct color in the catalog. The only exception to that should be a buyer who orders a fantasy paint scheme. This did not happen with MTH. I'm disappointed in what I will be receiving. I hope you enjoy the model, Skip.

MELGAR

Melgar,

     You must of missed MTH’s CP Army unit green paint. Instead of Olive Green they used snot green 😀. S happens to all the manufacturers some more than others at least the smokebox has a relative easy solution...........now the Lionel version of PRR Tuscan really chalks my que.

JohnB

The maddening part especially in the case of the NYC is that they got it spot on in the previous release. I was able to find the previous NYC version thankfully since I passed on this one because of the paint. I should have bought the NYC when it was offered new back in 2014-2015 but I must have had too many other irons in the fire then.

@Randy_B posted:

The maddening part especially in the case of the NYC is that they got it spot on in the previous release. I was able to find the previous NYC version thankfully since I passed on this one because of the paint. I should have bought the NYC when it was offered new back in 2014-2015 but I must have had too many other irons in the fire then.

When it comes to this particular locomotive, Lionel seems to never get the production model correct and to match the catalog photo.

With the first NYC Legacy 10 wheeler in 2008, #827, Lionel screwed up the tender lettering adding the word "LINES." The catalog photo showed the correct "NEW YORK CENTRAL" lettering.

With the second Legacy 10 Wheeler in 2014, #1258, The font of the number 1258 is not correct. The catalog had it correct.  Also, Lionel blackened the side rods on the production model. This change was ok with me but different from the catalog photo just the same.

And of course,

With the latest Legacy 10 Wheeler in 2021, #1232, Lionel painted the Smoke Box and Fire Box a light primer gray instead of dark graphite.

My other pet peeve is the horrifically "imaginative" paint job on the Vision Line Niagara.

I'd really be interested in where the process falls apart, causing these uninvited changes.

I noticed that the font used on the NYC 1258 seems a little too big - is that what you mean or the type of font is off? Don't get me started on the Niagara as I passed on that one because of the whitewalls. You think they could have made one or two road numbers without whitewalls to broaden the appeal but I guess not. I never even got to the paint as I couldn't get past the wheels. I'm coming around on the blackened side rods since most of my steamers seem to have them by now so I don't mind them as much.

Interested in seeing pictures of the Nicholas Smith Train's Exclusive Strasburg 972 if anyone here purchased it

1258 has a differently shaped numbers. Look at the "2."  San Serif font has the thickness of the number the same throughout and the numbers are taller and thinner.

1232 has the correct Serif font, shorter and wider and you can see the correct shape of the numbers as they vary in thickness throughout the curves.

It's not the size alone. That's not the New York Central font on 1258. Compare the 1 and the 2 on 1258 to those on 1232 and 1297 which are the correct fonts. They never seem to get the font wrong on Hudsons, Mohawks or Niagaras but this locomotive is snake-bit. The only other example of the wrong font I've seen is the little 1662 switcher.

I hate the Niagara white walls. But, it's not so much that it has white walls, but if it's going to have white walls the drive rods should be shinny new too. White walls with blackened drive rods makes no sense. And as such, the white walls detract from being able to see the action of the drive rods. When in motion all you focus on are the glaring white walls. The silver smoke box was totally uncalled for and disappointing,

Here's the real 1274.

When Lionel gets serious about decoration and getting the colors right I'll start buying again.  Until then my money is going elsewhere.   It's maddening that they can't get this right when others are able to get it right most of the time.

@NYC Fan posted:

1258 has a differently shaped numbers. Look at the "2."  San Serif font has the thickness of the number the same throughout and the numbers are taller and thinner.

1232 has the correct Serif font, shorter and wider and you can see the correct shape of the numbers as they vary in thickness throughout the curves.

Sorry to nitpick, but neither of those are serif fonts.  They are both sans serif.  Since we are talking about very specific paint details, I think careful use of those words is in order so as not to further confuse the manufacturer if/when they try to remedy the paint and lettering detail issues with the overseas factories.

Serifs are the little "feet" and "tails" that come off of the end of the letters.

Sans Serif
Serif

Too bad about the font. It is indeed wrong on 1258. I have yet to find transfers with the correct NYC font so decals would have to be used to correct this. Then you have deal with decal film and matching the sheen. Repainting the smoke box is trivial compared to renumbering.

Pete

If you want products to be correct, you are on the scene. If you are selling stuff, you do it this way. We just got 5 Sunset GP9s. Those $$$ used to go to Lionel. No longer do so. We have plenty of trains so no BTO, etc except with Scott.

This is a simple choice of supply methods.  Buyers make their choice also and obviously the numbers must support things as they are. But, if you intend to get Harry or someone else to correct what you don’t like, then you better automatically include the cost in every buying decision.

That's unfortunate about the font but less troubling and obvious to me than the paint at this point. At least it's still a sans serif font which would have been a deal breaker had it not.

@NYC Fan posted:

When it comes to this particular locomotive, Lionel seems to never get the production model correct and to match the catalog photo.

With the first NYC Legacy 10 wheeler in 2008, #827, Lionel screwed up the tender lettering adding the word "LINES." The catalog photo showed the correct "NEW YORK CENTRAL" lettering.

With the second Legacy 10 Wheeler in 2014, #1258, The font of the number 1258 is not correct. The catalog had it correct.  Also, Lionel blackened the side rods on the production model. This change was ok with me but different from the catalog photo just the same.

And of course,

With the latest Legacy 10 Wheeler in 2021, #1232, Lionel painted the Smoke Box and Fire Box a light primer gray instead of dark graphite.

My other pet peeve is the horrifically "imaginative" paint job on the Vision Line Niagara.

I'd really be interested in where the process falls apart, causing these uninvited changes.

I have 827 myself, and didn't like "Lines" was on there either. GRJ said that the smoke units in that run of 10 Wheelers always blew after some time, which mine did. I have to ask him what all other options he had said to me other than fixing that with a Super Chuffed and such to go with it. I think the lights and resistor. I'll have to ask him for sure. I like that little engine, and got it for a deal at York in 2019 I believe.

@rplst8 posted:

Sorry to nitpick, but neither of those are serif fonts.  They are both sans serif.  Since we are talking about very specific paint details, I think careful use of those words is in order so as not to further confuse the manufacturer if/when they try to remedy the paint and lettering detail issues with the overseas factories.

Serifs are the little "feet" and "tails" that come off of the end of the letters.

Sans Serif
Serif

I was under the impression that one of the characteristics os serif font was the difference in the thickness of the stroke as in calligraphy. Truth be told, I believe the font to be a mixture of Serif characteristics but without the feet and tails that came out of the Art Deco era. It has been referred to as Grand Central font.

@NYC Fan posted:

I was under the impression that one of the characteristics os serif font was the difference in the thickness of the stroke as in calligraphy. Truth be told, I believe the font to be a mixture of Serif characteristics but without the feet and tails that came out of the Art Deco era. It has been referred to as Grand Central font.

The changes in stroke width or weight are just that, stroke variations. There are several serif fonts like Rockwell and Courier that that serifs, but do not vary the stroke width.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serif

Railroad Roman is a serif font and would have been correct for the pre 1940 era. Slight changes in Railroad Roman are not as obvious as the font used on 1258 vs actual NYC sans serif font. One option would be to backdate the engine as RR font is available in transfers from Woodland Scenics but again very tedious to get right.

This would have been correct for pre 1940.

Pete

@rplst8 posted:

The changes in stroke width or weight are just that, stroke variations. There are several serif fonts like Rockwell and Courier that that serifs, but do not vary the stroke width.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serif

I agree. I read that the variation in width was one characteristic of Serif fonts. It is apparent that while it may be a characteristic that is prevalent in Serif fonts it can also be present in San Serif fonts as appears to be the case with the Grand Central font used on the 1940 and later New York Central equipment. So I stand corrected.

@Norton posted:

Railroad Roman is a serif font and would have been correct for the pre 1940 era. Slight changes in Railroad Roman are not as obvious as the font used on 1258 vs actual NYC sans serif font. One option would be to backdate the engine as RR font is available in transfers from Woodland Scenics but again very tedious to get right.

This would have been correct for pre 1940.

Pete

I always liked the early Roman font like on the Mogul. It would also be correct of the F12e 10 Wheelers but, correct me if I'm wrong, they would have been numbered in the 800's. They were still numbered in the 800' at the time the font was changed so the later Grand Central font would have been used when renumbered to 1200 numbers.

Lionel correctly numbered the first Legacy 10 Wheeler 827 in the old Roman font.

This is true. Likely RR is only correct for 800 numbered engines. Here is a set of CDS Pacemaker transfers. Looks close in size to the 827 ten wheeler. Actual height is .180". This is the 2000 Mikado which really is not a NYC engine. I may reletter it someday.

As for relettering with transfers, the old lettering comes off in seconds with lacquer thinner. I rarely coat transfers as they are fairly durable as long as you avoid handling the area.

These come up on eBay every once in a while. There is a set of black letters there now for second generation cars.

Pete

Anyone see the CP version yet? I think I've seen every other version, and I was curious how the magnets look on the tender.

I ordered one, but have not heard anything about it yet.

@CarGuyZM10 posted:

Anyone see the CP version yet? I think I've seen every other version, and I was curious how the magnets look on the tender.

I ordered one, but have not heard anything about it yet.

Not my video, but saw this earlier... It does not show the magnets.

@CarGuyZM10 posted:

Anyone see the CP version yet? I think I've seen every other version, and I was curious how the magnets look on the tender.

I received mine today. It’s very good looking. The smoke box isn’t as light as the video above, mine is darker, much more normal looking, thank goodness.

I can’t say anything about the magnets, my train didn’t include them. Just wrote my dealer about it. I planned to run it as a CP, so it’s not a major issue, but I still want the magnets.

We got the Nickel Plate Road version from Mr. Muffins, my boys love it. Not sure how accurate the colors are. It is our first Legacy engine.

Is this a marketing strategy???

Does anyone think that perhaps Lionel deliberately screws up one aspect of a locomotive each time, so that the next time it's released the same people will buy it again in hopes they got it right?

I bought a Southern and liked it so well on my small layout I purchased a Texas & Pacific. As for the gray vs graphite, I bought mine to relax. My take is the locomotives produced in Korea are normally spot on. The locomotives produced in China are hit or miss. I am impressed with the sound, whistle smoke, pulling power, and ability to negotiate O36 curves. If they gray where to upset me, I would just weather. I remind myself this is one of my hobbies and if the model performs well I can modify or find a solution to a cosmedic issue. Hey I just got a 3rd rail missing a staton. Am I sending it back...not on your life. I wished we as hobbyist to appreciate how the locomotives have improved over the last 60 years and relax a little.

@Aldovar posted:

We got the Nickel Plate Road version from Mr. Muffins, my boys love it. Not sure how accurate the colors are. It is our first Legacy engine.

Great video!   The excitement in the engineer’s voice is awesome and what it’s all about! Enjoy and cherish your time with him on the layout - in my experience, your engineer will grow up way too fast.

These ten wheelers really are a great size for almost all layouts and are packed with lots of features.

@NYC Fan posted:

Is this a marketing strategy???

Does anyone think that perhaps Lionel deliberately screws up one aspect of a locomotive each time, so that the next time it's released the same people will buy it again in hopes they got it right?

That is a great point Skip. With the Hudson's it should have been a no brainer on the colors, especially when the art released to Mr. Muffin's was spot on with everything we know. Plus the fact that everyone has been saying that they needed to remake the J3's like the 50th anniversary set. So what happens, way off on all counts except the shape.

@SouthernFan56 posted:

I bought a Southern and liked it so well on my small layout I purchased a Texas & Pacific. As for the gray vs graphite, I bought mine to relax. My take is the locomotives produced in Korea are normally spot on. The locomotives produced in China are hit or miss. I am impressed with the sound, whistle smoke, pulling power, and ability to negotiate O36 curves. If they gray where to upset me, I would just weather. I remind myself this is one of my hobbies and if the model performs well I can modify or find a solution to a cosmedic issue. Hey I just got a 3rd rail missing a staton. Am I sending it back...not on your life. I wished we as hobbyist to appreciate how the locomotives have improved over the last 60 years and relax a little.

How about some pics of both of them?  Would love to see all the different versions.

You also make a great point about all the impressive features - my gosh, the whistle smokes like a demon!  I wonder if it’s a new design, none of my other Legacy steamers smoke like these do.  Good stuff.

@Keith Crook 020419 posted:

I received mine today. It’s very good looking. The smoke box isn’t as light as the video above, mine is darker, much more normal looking, thank goodness.

I can’t say anything about the magnets, my train didn’t include them. Just wrote my dealer about it. I planned to run it as a CP, so it’s not a major issue, but I still want the magnets.

Hopefully mine will be darker too. I hope you not having the magnets is a fluke. I planned to display mine with the P&R magnets.

@CarGuyZM10 posted:

Hopefully mine will be darker too. I hope you not having the magnets is a fluke. I planned to display mine with the P&R magnets.

So Lionel forgot to make them. My dealer got this email from Lionel:

“They are aware and are making the plates now. They hope to have then in service in about a month.

The plates will come with both tape and magnets depending on how the customer would like to install them (put magnets inside the shell or put the tape on the back of the plates.) If customers call in to CS, we can get them on the list to mail these out when they arrive.  If any dealers need these for product they may still have in store, they can also reach out and we can send them sets to put in the box before sale.”

@Keith Crook 020419 posted:

So Lionel forgot to make them. My dealer got this email from Lionel:

“They are aware and are making the plates now. They hope to have then in service in about a month.

The plates will come with both tape and magnets depending on how the customer would like to install them (put magnets inside the shell or put the tape on the back of the plates.) If customers call in to CS, we can get them on the list to mail these out when they arrive.  If any dealers need these for product they may still have in store, they can also reach out and we can send them sets to put in the box before sale.”

Don't hold your breath. You know what happened with the Hudson boiler fronts that were going to be coming.

That was the first thing I thought of Skip! I received my NYC 1258 today and I'm pleased. The font is a head scratcher but I can overlook that for the smokebox paint.

@Randy_B posted:

That was the first thing I thought of Skip! I received my NYC 1258 today and I'm pleased. The font is a head scratcher but I can overlook that for the smokebox paint.

Great engine Randy!!!  I've been able to overlook it too. But, when 1232 was announced, I have to admit I zoomed in on the catalog to check out the cab number.

Can someone please clarify about the "magnets" for me? I'm not aware of any magnets on these models. Where would they be and what would be their purpose?

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

Can someone please clarify about the "magnets" for me? I'm not aware of any magnets on these models. Where would they be and what would be their purpose?

MELGAR

In the catalog it mentioned the following:

Perhaps they plan to cover CANADIAN PACIFIC with P&R or anything else they may have done for the fan trips.

@Keith Crook 020419 posted:

So Lionel forgot to make them. My dealer got this email from Lionel:

“They are aware and are making the plates now. They hope to have then in service in about a month.

The plates will come with both tape and magnets depending on how the customer would like to install them (put magnets inside the shell or put the tape on the back of the plates.) If customers call in to CS, we can get them on the list to mail these out when they arrive.  If any dealers need these for product they may still have in store, they can also reach out and we can send them sets to put in the box before sale.”

Thank you for the information. I will definitely be contacting customer service.

@NYC Fan posted:

In the catalog it mentioned the following:

Perhaps they plan to cover CANADIAN PACIFIC with P&R or anything else they may have done for the fan trips.

Lionel's page for them shows three separate pictures, each with different tender lettering. The effect is supposed to be exactly as you said for fan trips. http://www.lionel.com/products...y-4-6-0-972-2131060/

@CarGuyZM10 posted:

Lionel's page for them shows three separate pictures, each with different tender lettering. The effect is supposed to be exactly as you said for fan trips. http://www.lionel.com/products...y-4-6-0-972-2131060/

Thanks! I didn't see that.

JUST got my Reading & Northern.  Smoke like a chimney in the winter,WOW!!!   Nice, save the color.  Wish it was more darker like what MTH did on their uncataloged version of the 425.  Big downer was no warning lights and back up light on the tender.  Otherwise I really like it.

Earlier there were some questions about using neolube to darken the smoke boxes on these locos

I found that neolube would stain, get blotchy and darken from the smoke oil that will leak from filling and use. Using a solvent based paint paint may be a better alternative.

If the only issues on these locos are cosmetic I would count myself lucky!

I just ordered the custom run Strasburg one from Nicholas Smith, supposedly only 25 painted this way.  My son has been wanting a Strasburg engine to run with the MTH Strasburg passenger cars.

STRASBURG 4-6-0 #972 - Nicholas Smith Trains

Jim

I missed that one Jim, I just put in an order!  Thanks for mentioning it, since Lionel refuses to make a real Strasburg locomotive, I'll use this one.  I was considering the Camelback Lionel offered, but I like this choice better.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I missed that one Jim, I just put in an order!  Thanks for mentioning it, since Lionel refuses to make a real Strasburg locomotive, I'll use this one.  I was considering the Camelback Lionel offered, but I like this choice better.

GunRunner,

I was ordering some Dallee E-units and stumbled upon the Strasburg 10 Wheeler by chance.

Jim

It's a done deal now, my credit card is smokin' again!

The Metca PRR Ten Wheeler should be showing up soon. I got an email that it was shipping. So, guess we'll see what colors it got when it arrives won't we?

@Jim Sandman posted:

I just ordered the custom run Strasburg one from Nicholas Smith, supposedly only 25 painted this way.  My son has been wanting a Strasburg engine to run with the MTH Strasburg passenger cars.

STRASBURG 4-6-0 #972 - Nicholas Smith Trains

Jim

I did see that out there when I was looking around a few days ago. It does look good, hopefully the boiler is graphite and not "striking silver" or "light battleship gray". Good luck.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I did see that out there when I was looking around a few days ago. It does look good, hopefully the boiler is graphite and not "striking silver" or "light battleship gray". Good luck.

By all appearances, the ten wheelers are all the same. Battleship gray it is unless it was designed to be black or something else. Lionel graphite either shows up as graphite, battleship gray, or silver.  Someone somewhere in the Lionel organization can explain why and how it happens, but to the outside world it’s a roll of the dice. As a consumer, I don’t really care how they get to what is or isn’t as advertised (i.e, catalogued), I just wish they could figure out how to tell us what is coming. For example, I’m stoked for one of the upcoming Legacy Pacifics. If Ryan or Dave would just come out and say “hey, our manufacturer for those can only do battleship gray” that would be helpful (and honest) and I could cancel. Otherwise, I feel like I’m sticking it to my dealer (and friend) if I want to cancel.

@Rider Sandman posted:

By all appearances, the ten wheelers are all the same. Battleship gray it is unless it was designed to be black or something else. Lionel graphite either shows up as graphite, battleship gray, or silver.  Someone somewhere in the Lionel organization can explain why and how it happens, but to the outside world it’s a roll of the dice. As a consumer, I don’t really care how they get to what is or isn’t as advertised (i.e, catalogued), I just wish they could figure out how to tell us what is coming. For example, I’m stoked for one of the upcoming Legacy Pacifics. If Ryan or Dave would just come out and say “hey, our manufacturer for those can only do battleship gray” that would be helpful (and honest) and I could cancel. Otherwise, I feel like I’m sticking it to my dealer (and friend) if I want to cancel.

Yeah, I would say the same thing. My dealer is definitely my friend. I listen to good advice and if I need something, he can probably get it for me depending on what exactly it is. I'm sure within reason, I could ask for something that may be somewhat hard to get, he would probably be able to get it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I missed that one Jim, I just put in an order!  Thanks for mentioning it, since Lionel refuses to make a real Strasburg locomotive, I'll use this one.  I was considering the Camelback Lionel offered, but I like this choice better.

Yeah, this just kills me--always waiting for a model of a SRR steam prototype to pull my nice coaches, but for now I'm going to settle on the Legacy SW8 and pretend it's for an ultra rare excursion some kind.  At least they actually have one and the Lionel version and it's livery seem to be pretty well done...

I would not pass on the SRR. I would try Professor Chaos earlier posting to correct the gray if that is an issue. This is a terrific model to own and operate.

@Rider Sandman posted:

By all appearances, the ten wheelers are all the same. Battleship gray it is unless it was designed to be black or something else. Lionel graphite either shows up as graphite, battleship gray, or silver.  Someone somewhere in the Lionel organization can explain why and how it happens, but to the outside world it’s a roll of the dice. As a consumer, I don’t really care how they get to what is or isn’t as advertised (i.e, catalogued), I just wish they could figure out how to tell us what is coming. For example, I’m stoked for one of the upcoming Legacy Pacifics. If Ryan or Dave would just come out and say “hey, our manufacturer for those can only do battleship gray” that would be helpful (and honest) and I could cancel. Otherwise, I feel like I’m sticking it to my dealer (and friend) if I want to cancel.

Because of "Build To Order" those of us who want a particular item are forced to preorder to make sure we get one. I know some distributors order more and you can sometimes find these items for sale after they've been delivered. But not always. The more popular road names may be gone by the time they come out. But preordering should not and need not be a crap shoot if Lionel would pay attention to what is being manufactured and insure that the production model is faithful to the catalog representation.

Has anyone returned one of these high end preordered locomotives because of these issues? Most of us have good relationships with our dealers and don't want to ruin that by refusing an item they preordered. I know I stood there with my mouth open when I unboxed my Vision Line Niagara. It was a real WTF moment! But it wasn't my dealers fault and, being a friend, I wasn't about to make it his problem.

Until this whole issue becomes Lionel's problem, I don't see anything getting done to correct it. Right now it seems to be the consumer's problem. Are the dealers and distributers off the hook? I know it's not their fault but somehow this problem has to get back to being Lionel's problem.

I'd love to hear everyones thoughts.

I feel your pain Skip.  No more Lionel anything until they get their act together.  Whether it's Wrong paint (Niagara, Hudson, this engine), mechanical defects (mogul), couplers that don't couple (milk cars and other latest rolling stock), paint that chips off (Milk cars).  I'm DONE!!!!

I agree with you about it's not the dealers fault to a point.  Once a defect has been discovered and is well known, dealers need to take defective inventory off the shelves and send it back.  How many dealers out there have the latest Milk car on shelves and know about the paint issues and the coupler issues yet continue to sell to unsuspecting customers????   Plus Lionel which does not own up to their mistakes, which needs to change and they needs to recall their defective products.   

There, I've done my rant for the week.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled programing

@NYC Fan posted:

Because of "Build To Order" those of us who want a particular item are forced to preorder to make sure we get one. I know some distributors order more and you can sometimes find these items for sale after they've been delivered. But not always. The more popular road names may be gone by the time they come out. But preordering should not and need not be a crap shoot if Lionel would pay attention to what is being manufactured and insure that the production model is faithful to the catalog representation.

I'd love to hear everyones thoughts.

My thoughts exactly. I have a few items that I am interested in ordering if they are in upcoming catalogs, but I do not want to bet on the "Quality Control aspects" with my wallet.

I really wanted to get one of the latest N&W J's (my local dealer always orders extra) until I saw the bright orange paint.

The PRR H10's looked HORRIBLE or I would have bought one. From the silver smokebox to the yellow whistle, bell, and pop valves (they should be gold). The tender deck and cab roof were also not the (IMO) the correct shade of red. I know there's an entire thread on this alone... but I think all colors on the PRR engines should match the colors currently found on the engines at RRMPA as they are (truly) the experts.

@NYC Fan posted:

Because of "Build To Order" those of us who want a particular item are forced to preorder to make sure we get one. I know some distributors order more and you can sometimes find these items for sale after they've been delivered. But not always. The more popular road names may be gone by the time they come out. But preordering should not and need not be a crap shoot if Lionel would pay attention to what is being manufactured and insure that the production model is faithful to the catalog representation.

Has anyone returned one of these high end preordered locomotives because of these issues? Most of us have good relationships with our dealers and don't want to ruin that by refusing an item they preordered. I know I stood there with my mouth open when I unboxed my Vision Line Niagara. It was a real WTF moment! But it wasn't my dealers fault and, being a friend, I wasn't about to make it his problem.

Until this whole issue becomes Lionel's problem, I don't see anything getting done to correct it. Right now it seems to be the consumer's problem. Are the dealers and distributers off the hook? I know it's not their fault but somehow this problem has to get back to being Lionel's problem.

I'd love to hear everyones thoughts.

Yeah, if I order something from my dealer, there's no way I'd say sorry, this isn't right, I'm not buying it. The dealers I would say feel our pain as well as if they stock some on the shelves from ordering extras, there's less of a chance to sell a purple nosed Hudson that is supposed to be graphite. Yeah, I'm exaggerating a lot there, but heck, that's how we all feel anyway.