Let's talk brass train cars!

Ed,

 

I have been down the same road. I don't understand why Importers are so reluctant to list suggestions. Put the thing on the website for 6 months or so and see what happens. If there are few or no responses, eliminate it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

My other pet peeve is not redoing a project. If the demand is there, WHY NOT? It's done all the time with locomotives, so why not cars?

 

Simon

Yeah me too!

Is it possible that these importers do things with profit in mind?  Maybe a re-run is not in the cards if they lost $ the first time around?

 

If there is profit in high-dollar freight cars, and the big-name importers are ignoring the potential, then it is an opportunity!  Bill Davis did it for trucks - Rich Yoder seems to be having fun with his pet projects.  Plenty of room for another supplier?

As for a brass education, there was a brass book once published, I think I once talked

to the writer/publisher? at a show, (Brown Book?). but I understood there was little

or no "O" in it.  This is the kind of history that gets/got written up in RMC and NG&SLG, but is not all in one place.  And I have no idea who could put one together,

but wish somebody would....  I was looking for this info years ago, to see what cabooses might have been produced in brass.  Of course, it would be out of date

as soon as published, but you'd have a baseline.

Sorry Brad, I can't find your E mail. i click on the star and little points to an E mail. tried a tweet, nada.  Ieven have trouble to post tothe sight pictures and wish I could.

 

I have a white trinity tank car #60000 model 4461P. GATX, 40' airside 4631 U.P.and lastly a greenville box 60'DD painted DTI Md. # 4133 A car number 25034. I believe these have been on my shelf for close to 15 yrs about the time Atlas started producing it master line.

 

Phil.

Heck, I am lazy, I just went to the computer and looked up the numbers

http://www.brasstrains.com/Cla...-Dome-Tank-Car-60000

 

Can't find anything on the other 2 cars but found this nice refer FS

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html...cos+river&crdt=0

Obviously, I don't expect someone to rerun a loser. If you go to the Importer's website and look at past projects, most, if not all, say "sold out".

 

I think one of the flies in the ointment might be that a second run would probably require higher retail prices per unit to be successful, and some folks might balk at that idea. As in: "Why can't they cost the same as the first ones?" (Spoken in a petulant tone.)

 

I have also heard, the Importer does not want to offend the collector element, which in my opinion is hogwash.

 

Simon

Correct. It was indeed the Brown book, and the bulk of it was HO (makes sense, since there is way more of that than "O").

 

In my opinion, it would be a monumental task to compile a remotely accurate documentation of what is out there, and you would need the cooperation of those that Imported the stuff, and some of those folks are no longer with us.

 

If you attend all the shows you can, lurk around on the Net, and watch Evilbay diligently, you will slowly start to get an idea of what is out there.

 

I always figured if you can't find what you want for sale somewhere, it doesn't do you a whole h*ll of a lot of good just knowing it exists.

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

Start with that neat set of books that Bill Davis sells.  Those are the earliest, and they are well documented.

I'd like to add to the discussion of cars it would be good to see in O-scale.  As far as I know, the PRR X25 boxcar has never been done in O-scale. Between 1914 and 1919 PRR built over 11,000 X25's and X25A's(double-door); as late as 1947, there were still 9,161 X25's and 1,950 X25A's on the roster. So it was a prevalent car in the US car fleet; thus also good for non-PRR modelers.

 

The X25 was PRR's first steel box car; it was a bit taller than the later X29; it had end sills and a fishbelly centersill; and the doors opened to the left - very distinctive.

There was an article on these classes by Ted Culotta that appeared in #22 of the PRRT&HS "The Keystone Modeler" and issue 1 of Prototype Railroad Modeling.

 What books on what subject "that Bill Davis sells"?  I am looking at an excellent

Ted Hikel thread of the history of Mountain and Mohawk locos now running on the forum which seems to capture and exceed, by including prototype info, what I would

like to see for O brass including cabooses.  If done for locos, why not for cabooses?

Somebody has this info squirreled away, or knows the sources from which they could

compile it.

Boy would a run of x25's be swell.   The welded door variant especially 

I would love to see a run of x25 cars; this was the "lost car" that Pat O'Boyle was to do before he had problems with (WBM?) and then health issues.

 

Even more significant would be a run of X29's of every variant and with patch panels.   Between 10 of us an entire run of 100 cars could be pre-ordered.

Those were the most common steam era boxcars in the US after the NYC variants.

That would be interesting

We usually hear the "100 car" number bantied around.   Even though the market is saturated with plastic and gerneric X29's I would venture to say that an accurate run of X29 and variants (including close ARA 1923 "cousins") would easily sell 100 cars.

I would love to know the price spread for 50 versus 75 versus 100 since some cars like the Erie horizontal rib hopper have limited numbers on most steam roads.  A run of 50 might sell well but 100 might be a challenge unless it were a Kohs-like museum piece.

 

The only issue with the X25 is that it uses the X23's "fishbelly" underframe which might make for complexity and additional cost.

 

Maybe we need to review the Culotta Essential Freight Cars series and look at common cars that have never been done accurately. 

If you really want to see them, you could fire off an E-mail to Rich Yoder (nudge, nudge). Worst case is you get a "Go Fish!" in response. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

Simon

 

Or maybe Norm Buckhart at Protocraft

Do you mean the  Max Gray spotting Guides?

I think at least in the beginning brass importers made many models that they wanted to own too. It seems to me that OMI produced a bunch of UP models to my pleasure. Trying to get a importer to do research, dyes, and seek production with many trips abroad  is  asking a lot for a 100 car run and wanting to pay some $300+ I would think by now a brass model would be asking about 400-500. each meaning a total investment of $40,000. Seems like a lot of work for such a return as most stores who stocked the models only had a 30% markup. Sometimes I think postage was more than the profit on getting these models. 

 

Phil

Unfortunately both are in the middle of big projects, Norm with the 1937 car and Rich with the O-17 Watermelon cars and then the Mather cars. 

 

The market might be limited for another boring PRR steel box car... but I still suspect there are enough hard core brass buyers that a dead accurate model with versions not done in plastic or brass may be a big seller.

 

I suspect that Pat O'Boyle was interested in X25 cars since he already had the underframe from the X23 and R7 done... unfortunately the project never made it to fruition.

Rattle Jack Vansworth's cage. He's always game to produce. Only catch is orders. He is checking in hoppers for Brad. He is in the middle of moving.

I would prefer to see x25's done before another attempt at x29's.     That being said, I believe the Erie hopper car project being discussed would also be a swell project.

 

Brad

Do you brasser's run these cars, for display or use for personal mod's and alterations?

 

I haven't turned a wheel in probably 30 years on a model RR!  But someday I hope to add to the "has a P:48 layout" crowd. 

 

I plan on running them all and I buy things that fit my era and locale. 

 

Brad has Pacific Limited X23 PRR cars he would like one just like the one at Parksley at  the Eastern Shores RR museum.

 

Robbie---you are tough!    I run my cars; busy decaling and painting a slew of models including a personal fav: the Overland Palace Poultry car!     I'm partial to wood boxcars and hope to find an importer to do the XM varients...  of course the x25 is also a great model to pursue.

 

I have about 8 psc x29 that I have painted and decaled for the roads that operated them: CNJ, Maine Central, B&O, PRR etc.    I have also used a couple for the Canadian mini box as I like the spans the world herald [though the model is not accurate]...

I am not what one would call a "runner", but I do have four test loops.  I have an eclectic collection ranging from 75 year old Scale Craft through modern PSC, with lots of Max Gray and USH in between.  While I appreciate the accuracy of the more recent PSC cars, and would love to have unlimited bucks for some Pacific Limited GS gondolas, I am happier running the older wooden and brass kits.

 

I have a complete set of Harriman passenger cars, but prefer to run, and indeed to admire, my hand-built Walthers cars.  Just me.

Just think if someone did accurate ARA 1923 flavors of an X29 car you could have the right cars for CNJ decals!

 

I am hoping that Norm does 1937 cars with CP and CN specific details since CN had 18000 of them and CP had 9500+! 

 

When Rich does the Mather cars we'll be well on our way with the missing pieces being filled in for wood cars though there are tons and tons of other good wood cars missing yet. 

I would, respectfully, disagree.  Over the years a number of items were announced / advertised that never reached the production stage, and it is helpful to know that those items don't exist so that the search of a potential buyer can be redirected to a 'second choice' or Plan B, especially if that alternate item is hard to find [ or in some cases, hard to find at a non-atmospheric price.....].  Opinion, based on experience.

 

Best rgds, SZ

I run a several hundred car roster divided about 50/50 brass vs. plastic, along with a small mix of wood and resin body cars.  In selecting what models to acquire I care less about the materials the car is made of and more about prototype fidelity, and how the car will fit my circa 1952 PRR theme.

 

I would like someone to do some PRR box cars that have not been previously offered.  An X25's would be nice, but I'd also like to have several X26 and X29 rebuilds.  The have the under frames of the original cars but with the taller. wider body dimensions of a postwar ones.  The side sill and underbody details make them quite distinctive in a train heavy with AAR design box cars.

 

Ed Rappe

 

 

       
       


I run my equipment lightly but I do enjoy them on the track also. Most o scalers are operators. HO is another story.

Disagree all you like. If you can't find an item for sale, you can't buy it, and plan "B" doesn't change that.

 

Simon

But don't you think it is useful to know that a certain item does NOT exist, and that

it is therefore a waste of time even to look for it? If I know in advance (from some sort

of credible inventory of models that have been produced in the past) that no one has

ever produced or imported a model of a particular engine or car, then I'm not going to

go out searching for it. In that case, I can devote my energy to looking for a second choice (Plan B) item that I know has been made and may, therefore, actually be available somewhere.

 

 Let's suppose that years ago people knew for sure that there was no Holy Grail, then they

would't have wasted so much time and effort looking for it!

 

 

Certainly a lot of the fun of the train hobby is searching for that elusive car that is rare and very seldom seen for sale... kind of like when the real ones lose a car, lol!

 

What's probably more important here is the fact that one of the premier importers was planning on doing an X25 box car, a car never done in O scale, and had done a significant amount of research for the car.  I don't know where all of that research went but it was rumored to have went "somewhere" and whomever has it supposedly wants a significant amount of money for it.

 

PRR boxcars seem oblivious to the "just another boxcar" crowd but for those who model for accuracy the mere fact that the PRR (and NYC) had more boxcars  than others railroads had cars in their entire fleet should make at least a fair number of folks interested in an accurate model of one of these common cars.

 

Of course, at $300+ a pop YMMV. 

M. David Vaughn owns the pacific limited name and pats files....   We speak somewhat regularly and their is interest in locating a builder to finish pats projects.

 

 

the usra clones, prr x25's and a run of usra s/s and d/s are the three we have discussed.

So what credible inventory is it that you use?

 

Simon

I like the idea of oblivious box cars.  Most of mine are like that - they, and I, have no idea what is going on.

 

You guys will soon excommunicate me.  A good number of my PRR box cars are just re-decalled All-Nation.  I do have a Mini-Scale under restoration, and it indeed is somewhat accurate.

What you like is what you like, and it doesn't offend me one way or the other! Now bring on the inquisition! (Just Kidding Bob!)

 

Simon

No excommunication.  Plenty of room for heretics with old train cars!  

 

I always admired the late John Armstrong AND the late Ed Reutling for their love of old models.  They enjoyed building a model of a railroad in the same manner that I and others enjoy rivet counting and having lots of different and accurate rolling stock. 

You raise an excellent point;  in my opinion, deciding what is or isn't credible has to be based on experience.

Here's an example from the SZ files, Case History 7895:

 

A.  In the early 1980's ads by the importer for a small series of 0 scale passenger cars appeared in the major mags, complete with retail pricing.

B.  In 1984 a fully illustrated book showing production covering many manufacturers, especially 0 scale, was published;  these cars were illustrated.

C.  Some years later, the manufactuer, on the occasion of their Nth Anniversary, published a booklet listing production to date;  these cars were listed.

 

But the cars were never produced.  Between 'B' and 'C' appearing I cajoled [ or nagged, if you will ] a friend who collected the brand to write to the manufacturer asking about these cars, plus a few similar mysteries;  he received a very nice reply from someone with the institutional knowlege to provide definitive answers.

 

So:  Do you stop using Reference B, which used the photos of that manufacturer's same cars that were produced but in HO ?   No, it's still a valuable source -- especially where 0 scale only mfgs are concerned ! But Reference C has to be treated with a lot of skepticism.  One learns -- just like internet sources.

 

Regards, SZ

I agree 100%!

 

Simon

A lot of conversation points to the lack of what has been produced in brass. I was wondering if some place there could be a site where individuals could ad to a list of what they own, No names, just to point to out these did sale at one time. Maker, model, roads. No registering to get on but just listing what one knows. Be nice if it could be on this website. It could be broken down into importers, (manufacturers), yr?etc and then we would almost know what is out there and maybe even prices they sold for.

 

Phil