Last week Norm Buckhart posted pix of the start of the 1937 AAR box cars starting out with GN wood sheathed and plywood cars.
After the last Strasburg meet Rich Yoder firmed up his intention to do a series of Mather cars.
AND I just got lucky and scored a WA Drake 3 dome tank car off of fleabay for some very reasonable coinage.
Great time to be in O scale brass!!! 
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Robbie
score on the drake. I dropped out on that and the reefer. Pricing is very inconsistent -- I watched a carworks hh go for $780 two weeks later, one bid at $404...
yoderer smack series is going to be very keen. The Kennedy doors have never been done and guys will kick themselves for not ordering. Only 20 made.
The Mather cars will also fill a void--- we still need more O/B boxcars....
I would like to see (and purchase) the Erie/Susquehanna horizontal ribbed hoppers but Rich won't even put out a signup sheet to determine interest. Is there any interest in this car in brass?
Ed
Brad, you're right. The prices for brass are all over the map. I control myself and stick to things in my price range as not to jack up the prices and force domestic buyers out of the market.
Erik, Would be nice to have some steam era highway trailers in real 1:48 I have to agree...
And yes Ed, I love the horizontal rib hopper car. I have the Overland one in HO. According to Rich the problem with hopper cars is that you need to have both the outside and inside of the car detailed which runs up the cost real quick... and the trend is to cars that have many different versions to increase the "play value" thus the limited interest in the Erie/Susie Q hopper. Sadly when Rich did the fishbelly hoppers years ago no one suggested the uber-neat Reading WWII era composite versions. These cars were the nutz and stood out well into the diesel era.
The fact that Rich and Norm (and to an extent George Kohs) is keeping the brass car market going means there is still some life left in sales of upper end cars.
As for me I'd love to see some common but never done cars like FGEX wood reefers, USRA hoppers and UTLX X3 tank cars... AND some 36 foot box cars like Fowlers and Southern SU cars.
On that line, anyone up for Canadian NSC end versions of the 1937 box car? These things really stand out! 
Brass is definitely a wild-card. I picked up two brass hoppers for about $250 shipped a couple of years ago. Saw one of them going for $275 on eBay -- more than I want to pay, but it was a really nice car. Got a brass ATSF drover car for $175, but have seen it as high as $350 (seller didn't sell it and hasn't re-listed it). Go figure.
I do like the detail and weight of brass cars and will grab them if they match what I'm looking for and are in the budget -- pretty much what I do with the other stuff I buy.
Paging through so many categories on the auction site, I gave up looking at brass cars,
but have been lucky in finding Bobbye Hall's few O scale brass cabooses in estate
sales, O scale shows(not lately!), etc. Too bad she didn't make all the HO versions
she did, in O. With an occasional look at O brass, all over the map seems to pretty well describe its pricing. Cabooses is about all I look at there, as plastic for them seems to demand repetition of the very few.
It's hard to look at brass cabooses with Brother Love making such nice ones in plastic!!!
It does make me pine for the olden days when PSC was cranking out brass cars and cabooses on a regular basis.
Just think if Pat O'Boyle was still alive how the O brass car market would be with Pat, Rich, Norm and George Kohs !
Hmmm maybe we can get GPM to take some interest in a freight car project. WFEX/FGEX 6xxxx series truss rod reefers anyone? (we need the bigears emoticon here)
I pickup brass freight cars from time to time. So far all have been for the home road. Some of the things I want, don't show up that often and when they do, they can easily go past my comfort zone.
Tank cars are an area of interest for me, not road names but types.
The best thing I've come across in the past few years are the Rich Yoder Santa Fe box and stock cars. Nicely priced and excellent models.
I rather not have to bid on an item, it's always frustrating when you're barely outbid.
Marker,
rich made great models with his atsf project. You should contact him on the acl cars as a few are left. Gary Schroeder weathered his atsf and did a masterful job. I will ask him if I can re post his images
It's hard to look at brass cabooses with Brother Love making such nice ones in plastic!!!
It does make me pine for the olden days when PSC was cranking out brass cars and cabooses on a regular basis.
Just think if Pat O'Boyle was still alive how the O brass car market would be with Pat, Rich, Norm and George Kohs !
Hmmm maybe we can get GPM to take some interest in a freight car project. WFEX/FGEX 6xxxx series truss rod reefers anyone? (we need the bigears emoticon here)
Erik,
what are you and jack going to make? I would participate in the fgex, erie horizontal hopper and the utlx tank cars... I don't really need more engines.
You should contact him on the acl cars as a few are left. Gary Schroeder weathered his atsf and did a masterful job. I will ask him if I can re post his images.
Brad - I would be grateful if to see Gary's weathering. I lost touch a couple of years ago when he was having internet problems. Love his work.
Rich picks some very interesting cars to produce, and a nice guy. The ACL ventilated cars are a good example of something I am curious about. It's a nice, unique car, but would it have been found on a freight train in the Colorado/New Mexico area? That's always a question I ask when I buy a brass freight car.
We have to think of things in O scale that have never been done but are neat and unique.
Problem is that most people funding the projects are hesitant to do in brass what's already done in plastic even when the plastic versions are mediocre.
Or things that are all boring black like the common UTLX X3 tank cars.
George Kohs mentioned PFE reefers for a future project. PRB did SFRD cars. Would be nice if we could get some FGEX cars next.
Maybe you could put a bug in Jimmy's ear that the WFEX/FGEX truss rod reefers were some of the last truss rod cars running and there's pictures of them with AB brakes.
Marker,
shoot me an email. I will send you the mail from Gary . I believe many of the boxcars could have traveled west. I believe rich has a shot of an acl in la.
You should contact him on the acl cars as a few are left. Gary Schroeder weathered his atsf and did a masterful job. I will ask him if I can re post his images.
Brad - I would be grateful if to see Gary's weathering. I lost touch a couple of years ago when he was having internet problems. Love his work.
Rich picks some very interesting cars to produce, and a nice guy. The ACL ventilated cars are a good example of something I am curious about. It's a nice, unique car, but would it have been found on a freight train in the Colorado/New Mexico area? That's always a question I ask when I buy a brass freight car.
I don't know of any western roads with "watermelon" cars so I would suspect by this that when these cars were in vogue most of the melons grown in the US were grown in the south.
Once again I'm not an expert but I would suspect that ventiator service for melons would happen if shipped to the midwest or southwest during the warm fall and summer seasons when the ambient temps in the car could rise.
Okay, I might sound really stupid here but let me just throw it out there. Even though I do World War 2 era, I would like to have some nice double stack auto loader cars that could fit nice 1/43rd scale diecast cars. Not the Walmart junk, but the nice stuff. I know I know, the 1/43rd is out of scale, 10% to big if I understand the math, but hey that is all there is. I would like to have a few auto loaders with cool 1960s muscle cars or Trans-Am and Can-Am cars loaded on them thereby combining multiple hobbies. I don't know if they would fit on true 1/48 scale rail cars but maybe, just maybe, they could be made slightly oversize to accept 1/43rd scale cars?
I have never seen these cars, although admittedly I have never really looked hard.
(let the tomato throwing begin)
Erik,
I would be in for six Erie and four Susquehanna horizontal rib hoppers... Ed and Robbie, will you two take ten apiece? Erik, lets see some budgetary pricing with them painted and weathered... What trucks would they have?
thx
At 100 we'd be talking something with multiple versions and that would encompass things done generically in plastic.
Like USRA single sheathed cars in tons of modernized variations (AB brakes, upgraded roofs, etc)?
Or 1923 AAR cars (the pre-1932 X29 and clones). Between 3 of us PRR guys we would probably buy at least 40 PRR X29s plus another dozen clones if done in by Boo Rim. They'd have to be with the different side sheathing patterns used, etc, tho.
All of the X3 tanks might meet the 100 for all variations requirements too.
Can't speak for FGEX/WFEX cars but Bill Welch is the expert and hopefully his book comes out soon.
I'm enjoying this O scale brass thread. I used to collect brass HO locomotives several decades ago; a collection long sold. I'm restarting in the hobby, in O scale, and have perused several websites selling O cars and locomotives.
Could forum members list some preferred vendors/importers? I realize this will take much research on my part but I'd like to start out on the right track. Thanks.
Tank you...tank you very much.
I'm enjoying this O scale brass thread. I used to collect brass HO locomotives several decades ago; a collection long sold. I'm restarting in the hobby, in O scale, and have perused several websites selling O cars and locomotives.
Could forum members list some preferred vendors/importers? I realize this will take much research on my part but I'd like to start out on the right track. Thanks.
Well, lets give it a start.
Since you met Rich Yoder this past Strasburg show we can say his cars are top notch. ACF watermelon cars should be delivering soon and Mather cars are next up.
Norm Buckhart's Protocraft cars are also top notch, being built by Boo Rim who is one of the premier builders.
Kohs cars are astronomically priced but almost museum quality. Hard to find and high priced but if you find a fave go for it!
Pacific Limited cars, whicn were imported by the late Pat O'Boyle, also command premium prices. Some are very unique cars and they are generally very accurate (tho I don't think the much-revered 1932 ARA car is his best effort). His "older" cars, the single and double sheathed cars are fantastic cars but they were only done in "as built" form which limits their use. All in all some very desirable models and VERY well researched.
Steve Grabowski's Keystone Model Works PRR gondola and hopper cars are also awesome cars and usually fetch a premium price. He has some models in stock yet.
The "older" imports are Precision Scale. Some are really good and some are older and lesser quality but still unique. Pretty much variety in price depending on the car and the rarity/demand. PSC did LOTS Of cars over the years.
Other smaller imports are the HobbyHill brass ACF wood reefer and two types of tank cars. A tad more less often seen and sometimes premium priced. The WA Drake tank cars are also nice models and they command a premium when seen. And Division Point imported cabeese and SP/UP GS gondolas.
Let's see, we also have some other miscellaneous cars that are seen occasionally such as the Hallmark/I&I B&O wagontop hoppers, Hallmark PRR gondolas or some of the Overland models. Nice models that are occasionally seeen.
The oldest "vintage" commonly seen are Max Gray cars. Less details than the more modern cars and often bargain prices but very sturdy construction.
Enough info for a quick start?
Rule 292's overview hits the mark. I'd add US Hobbies in with Max Gray as they were done by the same builder. NJ Custom Brass and Alco Models also did a few cars I'd put in the same class as PSC. For PRR cabin cars add Weaver's N5c and the Nd, Nda from Car Works.
We should also add to the list the custom built (in the US) Bob Parri brass cars.
Ed Rappe
Well, lets give it a start.
Since you met Rich Yoder this past Strasburg show we can say his cars are top notch. ACF watermelon cars should be delivering soon and Mather cars are next up.
Norm Buckhart's Protocraft cars are also top notch, being built by Boo Rim who is one of the premier builders.
Kohs cars are astronomically priced but almost museum quality. Hard to find and high priced but if you find a fave go for it!
Pacific Limited cars, whicn were imported by the late Pat O'Boyle, also command premium prices. Some are very unique cars and they are generally very accurate (tho I don't think the much-revered 1932 ARA car is his best effort). His "older" cars, the single and double sheathed cars are fantastic cars but they were only done in "as built" form which limits their use. All in all some very desirable models and VERY well researched.
Steve Grabowski's Keystone Model Works PRR gondola and hopper cars are also awesome cars and usually fetch a premium price. He has some models in stock yet.
The "older" imports are Precision Scale. Some are really good and some are older and lesser quality but still unique. Pretty much variety in price depending on the car and the rarity/demand. PSC did LOTS Of cars over the years.
Other smaller imports are the HobbyHill brass ACF wood reefer and two types of tank cars. A tad more less often seen and sometimes premium priced. The WA Drake tank cars are also nice models and they command a premium when seen. And Division Point imported cabeese and SP/UP GS gondolas.
Let's see, we also have some other miscellaneous cars that are seen occasionally such as the Hallmark/I&I B&O wagontop hoppers, Hallmark PRR gondolas or some of the Overland models. Nice models that are occasionally seeen.
The oldest "vintage" commonly seen are Max Gray cars. Less details than the more modern cars and often bargain prices but very sturdy construction.
Enough info for a quick start?
Rule 292's overview hits the mark. I'd add US Hobbies in with Max Gray as they were done by the same builder. NJ Custom Brass and Alco Models also did a few cars I'd put in the same class as PSC. For PRR cabin cars add Weaver's N5c and the Nd, Nda from Car Works.
We should also add to the list the custom built (in the US) Bob Parri brass cars.
Ed Rappe
Bob Parri cars are handmade classics.
Almost forgot Pecos River Brass (PRB). Great Santa Fe reefers, stock cars and gons and some of the very few modern era (along with Overland) modern brass cars. Pricey stuff when you can find it but nice quality.
Also nice are The Car Works PRR flat cars and container cars, cabins and trolleys. Also niccely detailed quality stuff.
Anything else we forgot?
Rob
Glad you remembered PRB's Santa Fe's reefers - they model the very unusual ATSF door and ice hatch details. I especially like the "wrong way" hatch covers that open to the center of the car.
Here are a few more:
Steve Grabowski custom built (in the US) PRR N5c cabin cars and X29 box cars. One of his X29's is listed on eBay today. They were very nicely built.
Sunset imported PRR TM8 tank cars and N5 cabin cars in the 1980's. More recently under the 3rd Rail brand Sunset imported war emergency and B&O round roof box cars, B&O round roof covered hoppers, a chlorine cylinder flat car, an offset side twin hopper, and several cabeese. With the exception of the cabin cars I find the 3rd Rail freight cars to be on the "cluncky" side. The absence of one of the prominent ribs on the B&O round roof box car goes down as one of the classic freight car model screw ups. If you want a brass B&O round roof box car go for Overland's or Hallmark's. From a value perspective I prefer Weaver's plastic model.
Westside imported models of a 4 truck flat car and a heavy 200T wreck crane.
And on the very bottom of my brass quality and accuracy rating list, the cars (and a few locomotives) imported in the 1950's by International Model Products.
I'd bet there are a couple we've still overlooked.
Ed Rappe
Since you met Rich Yoder this past Strasburg show we can say his cars are top notch. ACF watermelon cars should be delivering soon and Mather cars are next up.
Norm Buckhart's Protocraft cars are also top notch, being built by Boo Rim who is one of the premier builders.
Kohs cars are astronomically priced but almost museum quality. Hard to find and high priced but if you find a fave go for it!
Pacific Limited cars, whicn were imported by the late Pat O'Boyle, also command premium prices. Some are very unique cars and they are generally very accurate (tho I don't think the much-revered 1932 ARA car is his best effort). His "older" cars, the single and double sheathed cars are fantastic cars but they were only done in "as built" form which limits their use. All in all some very desirable models and VERY well researched.
Steve Grabowski's Keystone Model Works PRR gondola and hopper cars are also awesome cars and usually fetch a premium price. He has some models in stock yet.
The "older" imports are Precision Scale. Some are really good and some are older and lesser quality but still unique. Pretty much variety in price depending on the car and the rarity/demand. PSC did LOTS Of cars over the years.
Other smaller imports are the HobbyHill brass ACF wood reefer and two types of tank cars. A tad more less often seen and sometimes premium priced. The WA Drake tank cars are also nice models and they command a premium when seen. And Division Point imported cabeese and SP/UP GS gondolas.
Let's see, we also have some other miscellaneous cars that are seen occasionally such as the Hallmark/I&I B&O wagontop hoppers, Hallmark PRR gondolas or some of the Overland models. Nice models that are occasionally seeen.
The oldest "vintage" commonly seen are Max Gray cars. Less details than the more modern cars and often bargain prices but very sturdy construction.
Enough info for a quick start?
Rule 292's overview hits the mark. I'd add US Hobbies in with Max Gray as they were done by the same builder. NJ Custom Brass and Alco Models also did a few cars I'd put in the same class as PSC. For PRR cabin cars add Weaver's N5c and the Nd, Nda from Car Works.
We should also add to the list the custom built (in the US) Bob Parri brass cars.
Ed Rappe
Rob
Glad you remembered PRB's Santa Fe's reefers - they model the very unusual ATSF door and ice hatch details. I especially like the "wrong way" hatch covers that open to the center of the car.
Here are a few more:
Steve Grabowski custom built (in the US) PRR N5c cabin cars and X29 box cars. One of his X29's is listed on eBay today. They were very nicely built.
Sunset imported PRR TM8 tank cars and N5 cabin cars in the 1980's. More recently under the 3rd Rail brand Sunset imported war emergency and B&O round roof box cars, B&O round roof covered hoppers, a chlorine cylinder flat car, an offset side twin hopper, and several cabeese. With the exception of the cabin cars I find the 3rd Rail freight cars to be on the "cluncky" side. The absence of one of the prominent ribs on the B&O round roof box car goes down as one of the classic freight car model screw ups. If you want a brass B&O round roof box car go for Overland's or Hallmark's. From a value perspective I prefer Weaver's plastic model.
Westside imported models of a 4 truck flat car and a heavy 200T wreck crane.
And on the very bottom of my brass quality and accuracy rating list, the cars (and a few locomotives) imported in the 1950's by International Model Products.
I'd bet there are a couple we've still overlooked.
Ed Rappe
Yep, forgot about the Westside F-200 flat car, a gorgeous and often-low priced model albeit with "Bettendorf double truck" lettering on the sideframes.
I forgot the New Jersey Custom Brass "NJ Custom Trash" cars. Unfortunately, as low quality as they are, they are the only PRR X31/X31b and Milwaukee Road Horizontal Rib Side box cars available in brass.
Also noteworthy are any of the On3 UTLX "Gramps" tank cars such as PFM. Sweeties and relatively easy to make into standard gauge cars. I'm blessed to have one from the collection of the late Stan Windrim of "Whew, I needed a few scotches on the rocks after trying to assemble the plastic springs into those San Juan trucks" fame. 
Car & Locomotive Shop: the finest Trainmasters and RS-11/12 ever made!
Berlyn Locomotive Works 20 ton gantry crane [a working model!]
Oriental Limited: NW-2, SW-1,7/8 & 9 diesels and a smattering of freight cars.
their diesels are very nice models with good drives. I have all of those listed and am pleased
NJ Custom Brass Rib side boxcars [not perhaps the best brass model, but an interesting sight on the layout]
I'm enjoying the education. I truly appreciate those taking the time to post.
Erick
Talking passengers - you da man! Recommend you kick off a fresh thread.
Ed Rappe
Talking passengers - you da man! Recommend you kick off a fresh thread.
Excellent idea, for me there is a lot to learn. O scale passenger cars over the years have immense refinements. Trucks, modeling accuracy, interiors, have all changed. Erik has posted pictures in the past of passenger equipment of which I had never seen.
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One of the significant things I'm learning is what to expect when buying older rolling stock. It's a huge education to someone that has not spent a lot of time in scale.
I need to go to meets, but it's very hard for me.
Outstanding, most appreciated and huge Thank You guys! This is a great education!!
I had started buying brass O in the 90's as more of a collector with no designes on running and purchased a few of the PRB cars. At the prices of $300+ per car I may have got 1 a year. They were special in that the fineness of the detail work was a hit over any plastic at that time or even now. But they sit boxed in a closet never to be run now that Atlas entered the market with very presentable cars at a far cheaper price range. I may get an itch to sell the three I have as they are like jewelery sitting in the jewel box just waiting to look good making an appearence. It is like a hoarder and just knowing one has the product is fulfilling. I have collect more big UP engines in brass than I have in brass cars.That is funny in a way as one would think one engine and many cars. Guess I should have done an engine facility to diplay all of them .
Phil
Phil
Phil,
email me with what you might want to sell...
I would like to see (and purchase) the Erie/Susquehanna horizontal ribbed hoppers but Rich won't even put out a signup sheet to determine interest. Is there any interest in this car in brass?
Ed
Ed,
I have been down the same road. I don't understand why Importers are so reluctant to list suggestions. Put the thing on the website for 6 months or so and see what happens. If there are few or no responses, eliminate it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
My other pet peeve is not redoing a project. If the demand is there, WHY NOT? It's done all the time with locomotives, so why not cars?
Simon
Is it possible that these importers do things with profit in mind? Maybe a re-run is not in the cards if they lost $ the first time around?
If there is profit in high-dollar freight cars, and the big-name importers are ignoring the potential, then it is an opportunity! Bill Davis did it for trucks - Rich Yoder seems to be having fun with his pet projects. Plenty of room for another supplier?
As for a brass education, there was a brass book once published, I think I once talked
to the writer/publisher? at a show, (Brown Book?). but I understood there was little
or no "O" in it. This is the kind of history that gets/got written up in RMC and NG&SLG, but is not all in one place. And I have no idea who could put one together,
but wish somebody would.... I was looking for this info years ago, to see what cabooses might have been produced in brass. Of course, it would be out of date
as soon as published, but you'd have a baseline.
Sorry Brad, I can't find your E mail. i click on the star and little points to an E mail. tried a tweet, nada. Ieven have trouble to post tothe sight pictures and wish I could.
I have a white trinity tank car #60000 model 4461P. GATX, 40' airside 4631 U.P.and lastly a greenville box 60'DD painted DTI Md. # 4133 A car number 25034. I believe these have been on my shelf for close to 15 yrs about the time Atlas started producing it master line.
Phil.
Heck, I am lazy, I just went to the computer and looked up the numbers
http://www.brasstrains.com/Cla...-Dome-Tank-Car-60000
Can't find anything on the other 2 cars but found this nice refer FS
Is it possible that these importers do things with profit in mind? Maybe a re-run is not in the cards if they lost $ the first time around?
Obviously, I don't expect someone to rerun a loser. If you go to the Importer's website and look at past projects, most, if not all, say "sold out".
I think one of the flies in the ointment might be that a second run would probably require higher retail prices per unit to be successful, and some folks might balk at that idea. As in: "Why can't they cost the same as the first ones?" (Spoken in a petulant tone.)
I have also heard, the Importer does not want to offend the collector element, which in my opinion is hogwash.
Simon
As for a brass education, there was a brass book once published, I think I once talked
to the writer/publisher? at a show, (Brown Book?). but I understood there was little
as soon as published, but you'd have a baseline.
Correct. It was indeed the Brown book, and the bulk of it was HO (makes sense, since there is way more of that than "O").
In my opinion, it would be a monumental task to compile a remotely accurate documentation of what is out there, and you would need the cooperation of those that Imported the stuff, and some of those folks are no longer with us.
If you attend all the shows you can, lurk around on the Net, and watch Evilbay diligently, you will slowly start to get an idea of what is out there.
I always figured if you can't find what you want for sale somewhere, it doesn't do you a whole h*ll of a lot of good just knowing it exists.
Simon
Start with that neat set of books that Bill Davis sells. Those are the earliest, and they are well documented.
I'd like to add to the discussion of cars it would be good to see in O-scale. As far as I know, the PRR X25 boxcar has never been done in O-scale. Between 1914 and 1919 PRR built over 11,000 X25's and X25A's(double-door); as late as 1947, there were still 9,161 X25's and 1,950 X25A's on the roster. So it was a prevalent car in the US car fleet; thus also good for non-PRR modelers.
The X25 was PRR's first steel box car; it was a bit taller than the later X29; it had end sills and a fishbelly centersill; and the doors opened to the left - very distinctive.
There was an article on these classes by Ted Culotta that appeared in #22 of the PRRT&HS "The Keystone Modeler" and issue 1 of Prototype Railroad Modeling.
What books on what subject "that Bill Davis sells"? I am looking at an excellent
Ted Hikel thread of the history of Mountain and Mohawk locos now running on the forum which seems to capture and exceed, by including prototype info, what I would
like to see for O brass including cabooses. If done for locos, why not for cabooses?
Somebody has this info squirreled away, or knows the sources from which they could
compile it.
Boy would a run of x25's be swell. The welded door variant especially
Boy would a run of x25's be swell. The welded door variant especially
I would love to see a run of x25 cars; this was the "lost car" that Pat O'Boyle was to do before he had problems with (WBM?) and then health issues.
Even more significant would be a run of X29's of every variant and with patch panels. Between 10 of us an entire run of 100 cars could be pre-ordered.
Those were the most common steam era boxcars in the US after the NYC variants.
We usually hear the "100 car" number bantied around. Even though the market is saturated with plastic and gerneric X29's I would venture to say that an accurate run of X29 and variants (including close ARA 1923 "cousins") would easily sell 100 cars.
I would love to know the price spread for 50 versus 75 versus 100 since some cars like the Erie horizontal rib hopper have limited numbers on most steam roads. A run of 50 might sell well but 100 might be a challenge unless it were a Kohs-like museum piece.
The only issue with the X25 is that it uses the X23's "fishbelly" underframe which might make for complexity and additional cost.
Maybe we need to review the Culotta Essential Freight Cars series and look at common cars that have never been done accurately. 
Boy would a run of x25's be swell. The welded door variant especially
If you really want to see them, you could fire off an E-mail to Rich Yoder (nudge, nudge). Worst case is you get a "Go Fish!" in response. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Simon
Or maybe Norm Buckhart at Protocraft
Start with that neat set of books that Bill Davis sells. Those are the earliest, and they are well documented.
Do you mean the Max Gray spotting Guides?
I think at least in the beginning brass importers made many models that they wanted to own too. It seems to me that OMI produced a bunch of UP models to my pleasure. Trying to get a importer to do research, dyes, and seek production with many trips abroad is asking a lot for a 100 car run and wanting to pay some $300+ I would think by now a brass model would be asking about 400-500. each meaning a total investment of $40,000. Seems like a lot of work for such a return as most stores who stocked the models only had a 30% markup. Sometimes I think postage was more than the profit on getting these models.
Phil
Boy would a run of x25's be swell. The welded door variant especially
If you really want to see them, you could fire off an E-mail to Rich Yoder (nudge, nudge). Worst case is you get a "Go Fish!" in response. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Simon
Or maybe Norm Buckhart at Protocraft
Unfortunately both are in the middle of big projects, Norm with the 1937 car and Rich with the O-17 Watermelon cars and then the Mather cars.
The market might be limited for another boring PRR steel box car... but I still suspect there are enough hard core brass buyers that a dead accurate model with versions not done in plastic or brass may be a big seller.
I suspect that Pat O'Boyle was interested in X25 cars since he already had the underframe from the X23 and R7 done... unfortunately the project never made it to fruition.
I would prefer to see x25's done before another attempt at x29's. That being said, I believe the Erie hopper car project being discussed would also be a swell project.
Brad
Do you brasser's run these cars, for display or use for personal mod's and alterations?
Do you brasser's run these cars, for display or use for personal mod's and alterations?
I haven't turned a wheel in probably 30 years on a model RR! But someday I hope to add to the "has a P:48 layout" crowd.
I plan on running them all and I buy things that fit my era and locale.
Brad has Pacific Limited X23 PRR cars he would like one just like the one at Parksley at the Eastern Shores RR museum.
Robbie---you are tough! I run my cars; busy decaling and painting a slew of models including a personal fav: the Overland Palace Poultry car! I'm partial to wood boxcars and hope to find an importer to do the XM varients... of course the x25 is also a great model to pursue.
I have about 8 psc x29 that I have painted and decaled for the roads that operated them: CNJ, Maine Central, B&O, PRR etc. I have also used a couple for the Canadian mini box as I like the spans the world herald [though the model is not accurate]...
I am not what one would call a "runner", but I do have four test loops. I have an eclectic collection ranging from 75 year old Scale Craft through modern PSC, with lots of Max Gray and USH in between. While I appreciate the accuracy of the more recent PSC cars, and would love to have unlimited bucks for some Pacific Limited GS gondolas, I am happier running the older wooden and brass kits.
I have a complete set of Harriman passenger cars, but prefer to run, and indeed to admire, my hand-built Walthers cars. Just me.
Robbie---you are tough! I run my cars; busy decaling and painting a slew of models including a personal fav: the Overland Palace Poultry car! I'm partial to wood boxcars and hope to find an importer to do the XM varients... of course the x25 is also a great model to pursue.
I have about 8 psc x29 that I have painted and decaled for the roads that operated them: CNJ, Maine Central, B&O, PRR etc. I have also used a couple for the Canadian mini box as I like the spans the world herald [though the model is not accurate]...
Just think if someone did accurate ARA 1923 flavors of an X29 car you could have the right cars for CNJ decals!
I am hoping that Norm does 1937 cars with CP and CN specific details since CN had 18000 of them and CP had 9500+!
When Rich does the Mather cars we'll be well on our way with the missing pieces being filled in for wood cars though there are tons and tons of other good wood cars missing yet.
I always figured if you can't find what you want for sale somewhere, it doesn't do you a whole h*ll of a lot of good just knowing it exists.
I would, respectfully, disagree. Over the years a number of items were announced / advertised that never reached the production stage, and it is helpful to know that those items don't exist so that the search of a potential buyer can be redirected to a 'second choice' or Plan B, especially if that alternate item is hard to find [ or in some cases, hard to find at a non-atmospheric price.....]. Opinion, based on experience.
Best rgds, SZ
I run a several hundred car roster divided about 50/50 brass vs. plastic, along with a small mix of wood and resin body cars. In selecting what models to acquire I care less about the materials the car is made of and more about prototype fidelity, and how the car will fit my circa 1952 PRR theme.
I would like someone to do some PRR box cars that have not been previously offered. An X25's would be nice, but I'd also like to have several X26 and X29 rebuilds. The have the under frames of the original cars but with the taller. wider body dimensions of a postwar ones. The side sill and underbody details make them quite distinctive in a train heavy with AAR design box cars.
Ed Rappe
Do you brasser's run these cars, for display or use for personal mod's and alterations?
I always figured if you can't find what you want for sale somewhere, it doesn't do you a whole h*ll of a lot of good just knowing it exists.
I would, respectfully, disagree.
Best rgds, SZ
Disagree all you like. If you can't find an item for sale, you can't buy it, and plan "B" doesn't change that.
Simon
But don't you think it is useful to know that a certain item does NOT exist, and that
it is therefore a waste of time even to look for it? If I know in advance (from some sort
of credible inventory of models that have been produced in the past) that no one has
ever produced or imported a model of a particular engine or car, then I'm not going to
go out searching for it. In that case, I can devote my energy to looking for a second choice (Plan B) item that I know has been made and may, therefore, actually be available somewhere.
Let's suppose that years ago people knew for sure that there was no Holy Grail, then they
would't have wasted so much time and effort looking for it!
I always figured if you can't find what you want for sale somewhere, it doesn't do you a whole h*ll of a lot of good just knowing it exists.
I would, respectfully, disagree. Over the years a number of items were announced / advertised that never reached the production stage, and it is helpful to know that those items don't exist so that the search of a potential buyer can be redirected to a 'second choice' or Plan B, especially if that alternate item is hard to find [ or in some cases, hard to find at a non-atmospheric price.....]. Opinion, based on experience.
Best rgds, SZ
I always figured if you can't find what you want for sale somewhere, it doesn't do you a whole h*ll of a lot of good just knowing it exists.
I would, respectfully, disagree.
Best rgds, SZ
Disagree all you like. If you can't find an item for sale, you can't buy it, and plan "B" doesn't change that.
Simon
But don't you think it is useful to know that a certain item does NOT exist, and that
it is therefore a waste of time even to look for it? If I know in advance (from some sort
of credible inventory of models that have been produced in the past) that no one has
ever produced or imported a model of a particular engine or car, then I'm not going to
go out searching for it. In that case, I can devote my energy to looking for a second choice (Plan B) item that I know has been made and may, therefore, actually be available somewhere.
Let's suppose that years ago people knew for sure that there was no Holy Grail, then they
would't have wasted so much time and effort looking for it!
Certainly a lot of the fun of the train hobby is searching for that elusive car that is rare and very seldom seen for sale... kind of like when the real ones lose a car, lol!
What's probably more important here is the fact that one of the premier importers was planning on doing an X25 box car, a car never done in O scale, and had done a significant amount of research for the car. I don't know where all of that research went but it was rumored to have went "somewhere" and whomever has it supposedly wants a significant amount of money for it.
PRR boxcars seem oblivious to the "just another boxcar" crowd but for those who model for accuracy the mere fact that the PRR (and NYC) had more boxcars than others railroads had cars in their entire fleet should make at least a fair number of folks interested in an accurate model of one of these common cars.
Of course, at $300+ a pop YMMV.
M. David Vaughn owns the pacific limited name and pats files.... We speak somewhat regularly and their is interest in locating a builder to finish pats projects.
the usra clones, prr x25's and a run of usra s/s and d/s are the three we have discussed.
But don't you think it is useful to know that a certain item does NOT exist, and that it is therefore a waste of time even to look for it? If I know in advance (from some sort of credible inventory of models that have been produced in the past) that no one has ever produced or imported a model of a particular engine or car, then I'm not going to go out searching for it.
So what credible inventory is it that you use?
Simon
I like the idea of oblivious box cars. Most of mine are like that - they, and I, have no idea what is going on.
You guys will soon excommunicate me. A good number of my PRR box cars are just re-decalled All-Nation. I do have a Mini-Scale under restoration, and it indeed is somewhat accurate.
I like the idea of oblivious box cars. Most of mine are like that - they, and I, have no idea what is going on.
You guys will soon excommunicate me. A good number of my PRR box cars are just re-decalled All-Nation. I do have a Mini-Scale under restoration, and it indeed is somewhat accurate.
What you like is what you like, and it doesn't offend me one way or the other! Now bring on the inquisition! (Just Kidding Bob!)
Simon
I like the idea of oblivious box cars. Most of mine are like that - they, and I, have no idea what is going on.
You guys will soon excommunicate me. A good number of my PRR box cars are just re-decalled All-Nation. I do have a Mini-Scale under restoration, and it indeed is somewhat accurate.
No excommunication. Plenty of room for heretics with old train cars!
I always admired the late John Armstrong AND the late Ed Reutling for their love of old models. They enjoyed building a model of a railroad in the same manner that I and others enjoy rivet counting and having lots of different and accurate rolling stock.
So what credible inventory is it that you use?
You raise an excellent point; in my opinion, deciding what is or isn't credible has to be based on experience.
Here's an example from the SZ files, Case History 7895:
A. In the early 1980's ads by the importer for a small series of 0 scale passenger cars appeared in the major mags, complete with retail pricing.
B. In 1984 a fully illustrated book showing production covering many manufacturers, especially 0 scale, was published; these cars were illustrated.
C. Some years later, the manufactuer, on the occasion of their Nth Anniversary, published a booklet listing production to date; these cars were listed.
But the cars were never produced. Between 'B' and 'C' appearing I cajoled [ or nagged, if you will ] a friend who collected the brand to write to the manufacturer asking about these cars, plus a few similar mysteries; he received a very nice reply from someone with the institutional knowlege to provide definitive answers.
So: Do you stop using Reference B, which used the photos of that manufacturer's same cars that were produced but in HO ? No, it's still a valuable source -- especially where 0 scale only mfgs are concerned ! But Reference C has to be treated with a lot of skepticism. One learns -- just like internet sources.
Regards, SZ
So what credible inventory is it that you use?
You raise an excellent point; in my opinion, deciding what is or isn't credible has to be based on experience.
Regards, SZ
I agree 100%!
Simon
A lot of conversation points to the lack of what has been produced in brass. I was wondering if some place there could be a site where individuals could ad to a list of what they own, No names, just to point to out these did sale at one time. Maker, model, roads. No registering to get on but just listing what one knows. Be nice if it could be on this website. It could be broken down into importers, (manufacturers), yr?etc and then we would almost know what is out there and maybe even prices they sold for.
Phil
A lot of conversation points to the lack of what has been produced in brass. I was wondering if some place there could be a site where individuals could ad to a list of what they own, No names, just to point to out these did sale at one time. Maker, model, roads. No registering to get on but just listing what one knows. Be nice if it could be on this website. It could be broken down into importers, (manufacturers), yr?etc and then we would almost know what is out there and maybe even prices they sold for.
Phil
Sounds like a good crowd source exercise,
IMO it shouldn't be a list of what people own - but a list of what we know has been actually built. Unless the list is for brass collectors, why restrict it to just brass cars. When assembling a freight car roster it's useful to know what's been previously commercially offered - regardless of material - regardless of kit or built up. In response to Simon's point I've found if it's been offered commercially eventually it will show up on a meet table, estate sale, or eBay. Knowing what's been produced helps me know what, where, and how to search for - it just may take awhile to find it. I'd recommend against listing current pricing as in our very small market it's just too variable. Original MSRP would be of historical interest.
Ed Rappe
A BRASS database alone would be a monumental task. The idea of a cooperative listing sounds nice in theory, but how do you ensure accuracy and keep the "gremlins" away. As far as dollar values, unless it is original list price, I see NO point in that because values will become irrelevant sooner or later. What is HOT today is many times NOT tomorrow. Knowing production numbers would be far more valuable, but where are you going to get them.......the Importer, obviously, but some are not so forthcoming as far as giving out information. Hate to be negative, but I just don't see it happening.
I just don't think you can circumvent the "experience" thing.
Simon
I didn't say that I have, or know of, a "credible inventory," only that if such an inventory could be produced, then it would be very useful.
There's a Kohs NCY Hudson on ebay for $11,995. Probably overpriced and speculating. But, even at a lower price, I don't get it. I've seen Kohs pieces at shows etc and sorta checked them out. But, I don't get it. Help me understand why anyone would pay that kind of money. No disrespect intended. Pure, honest question. Thanks in advance.
There's a Kohs NCY Hudson on ebay for $11,995. Probably overpriced and speculating. But, even at a lower price, I don't get it. I've seen Kohs pieces at shows etc and sorta checked them out. But, I don't get it. Help me understand why anyone would pay that kind of money. No disrespect intended. Pure, honest question. Thanks in advance.
Just a guess but: 1) they want it, and 2) they have the money.
There's a Kohs NCY Hudson on ebay for $11,995. Probably overpriced and speculating. But, even at a lower price, I don't get it. I've seen Kohs pieces at shows etc and sorta checked them out. But, I don't get it. Help me understand why anyone would pay that kind of money. No disrespect intended. Pure, honest question. Thanks in advance.
Asking price does not always equal "getting" price. . I have a few Kohs cars and Kohs, like Glacier Park Models and KEY Imports, are the current state of the art.
I don't own any Kohs or Key locomotives simply because they aren't made in P:48. I would love to have two, tree, a pair of Kohs GG1's in P:48 but I suspect it would cost thousands to convert just one loco.
Anyhoo, I'm in the process of setting up a "O scale brass list" in Yahoo Groups. It would be nice to have like minded folks discussing the topics. Ultimately it would be nice to have a standardized database with Manufacturer names, model numbers, approximate run dates and quantities as well as pictures and descriptions.
Omitting even original selling price might be a good idea.
I agree with the statement:
Just a guess but: 1) they want it, and 2) they have the money.
That's why someone buys a Rolex or Vacheron Constantine, even though a Timex
does the job. And why would someone want it? -- craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction
of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc.
A BRASS database alone would be a monumental task.
It would keep some folks off the streets from stealing hubcaps for a while,
The idea of a cooperative listing sounds nice in theory, but how do you ensure accuracy and keep the "gremlins" away.
Actually, I and a few others set up just such an effort to replicate the Model RR Magazine Index and that effort exists over on a Yahoo group....
As far as dollar values, unless it is original list price, I see NO point in that because values will become irrelevant sooner or later. What is HOT today is many times NOT tomorrow.
Prices change with every variable including phase of the moon.....
That would also be useful - no doubt about it.
There's a Kohs NCY Hudson on ebay for $11,995.
1st listing was at $17,995, 
It's been dropping....
Probably overpriced....
Ya' think?
why restrict it to just brass cars. When assembling a freight car roster it's useful to know what's been previously commercially offered - regardless of material - regardless of kit or built up.
There have been over 200 different O scale freight car models tooled and produced in plastic since the 1990s. When you add road names/paint schemes the numbers are well into the thousands. For all road numbers multiply again.
For brass freight cars the number of different freight car designs might be higher but the total number of road names/paint schemes might not.
IMO it shouldn't be a list of what people own - but a list of what we know has been actually built. Unless the list is for brass collectors, why restrict it to just brass cars. When assembling a freight car roster it's useful to know what's been previously commercially offered - regardless of material - regardless of kit or built up. In response to Simon's point I've found if it's been offered commercially eventually it will show up on a meet table, estate sale, or eBay. Knowing what's been produced helps me know what, where, and how to search for - it just may take awhile to find it. I'd recommend against listing current pricing as in our very small market it's just too variable. Original MSRP would be of historical interest.
Ed Rappe
I tried starting a spreadsheet on one of the Anthracite Roads web sites of accurate O scale rolling stock.
One of the biggest problems is quantifying what constitutes "accurate". To me the San Juan Car Company kits are dead-nutz accurate and my Pacific Limited Seaboard Air Line 1932 car scores only an 8 out of 10 since it has single layer etching that poorly represents the built-up nature of the actual car.
It would be great to chronicle what cars have been done over the years and come up with a scale to rate their accuracy in not only dimensional accuracy but fidelity to prototype and the accuracy of details.
I know from my own efforts how difficult of a task it is to develop photographic evidence of every car I own as well as some semblance of fidelity to the numbers of the prototype, i.e. having lots and lots of H21s and X29's since they WERE the predominate box and hopper cars of my era/area.
Ultimately this would be a great thing, but for now I'd prefer to get away from the computer and start painting and lettering the fleet... and adding to it with accurate, common cars such as X25's and the like.
Bumpety bump... Yoder ACL Cars are here!!!! Meeting Rich at 1 to pick them up!
Rob,
please post images of the acl models!
Rob,
please post images of the acl models!
Unfortunately I'm on the road but the cars are GORGEOUS! Really nicely done and from first glance seem very accurate.
ANOTHER winner from Rich! 
ANOTHER winner from Rich!
Master Yoda has the knack.
Rob,
please post images of the acl models!
B Smith,
"""That's why someone buys a Rolex or Vacheron Constantine, even though a Timex
does the job. And why would someone want it? -- craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction
of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc."""
Thanks for narrowing my reasons for owning a Brass model, models,
Phill
I didn't say that I have, or know of, a "credible inventory," only that if such an inventory could be produced, then it would be very useful.
So we are using a mythical inventory.
As my old Daddy always said about IF: If the old bullfrog had wings, he wouldn't have to drag his behind on the ground.
You are a bit too concerned with what has NOT been produced rather than what has. I look at everything out there I can, and the more I look, the more I know about just exactly what IS out there, and if I stumble across "Plan B", well I'll buy it if I'm able, and I won't give a second thought to "Plan A" because it might be a ghost. Do I know it all? The answer: A resounding NO! But the more I know of what is there, the more likely I am to make an "informed" choice, and magical inventory or not, you can't buy what ain't there!
Simon
Simon -- I really don't know what you are going on about here. You seem to have
deliberately misconstrued my point, which is no more complicated than suggesting
that it could be interesting and useful to have a comprehensive and well-documented list of models produced over the years in O-scale.
What your daddy said about the bullfrog may be true, but there is no analogy to the
matter in question.
B Smith,
"""That's why someone buys a Rolex or Vacheron Constantine, even though a Timex
does the job. And why would someone want it? -- craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction
of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc."""
Phil: "Thanks for narrowing my reasons for owning a Brass model, models,"
Brass Models is like art. Have you heard of the Book published years ago "The Art of Brass?" People by brass/art for the " craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction
of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc.""" Your analogy the the Timex is bogus. Timex is mass produced and readily available, Brass is not! Some people appreciate art, then there are others who have no taste. Stephen
For those that would like photos of the Yoder ACL cars, Why not visit his web page. They been up there for a while now. Stephen
Simon -- I really don't know what you are going on about here. You seem to have
deliberately misconstrued my point, which is no more complicated than suggesting
that it could be interesting and useful to have a comprehensive and well-documented list of models produced over the years in O-scale.
What your daddy said about the bullfrog may be true, but there is no analogy to the
matter in question.
Mr. Smith, I have NO real beef with any of the thoughts you express, and agree that an accurate, comprehensive inventory would be a great and useful thing. That said, I don't see it becoming a reality anytime soon, thus my (hopefully humorous) take on the word "IF". I could be wrong, but it seems to me the longer one is around this "stuff" the less 'their' need is for a guide such as we are discussing. Actually, looking at sites like Evilbait and the various Brass sellers (or plastic if you like) sort of becomes a hobby unto itself, and the reward is, you become your own little guide through the experience of doing so. The Internet makes it easy because you don't have to 'schlep' around to shows to see stuff, but then going to shows is a reward unto itself and you learn even more and get to see stuff up close and personal. It's a journey of sorts, and half the fun is getting there. I hope you find your plan A and B and C (if there is one) and if that mythical guide ever does see the light of day, well I'll probably buy one!
Regards,
Simon
B Smith,
"""That's why someone buys a Rolex or Vacheron Constantine, even though a Timex
does the job. And why would someone want it? -- craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction
of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc."""
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your analogy the the Timex is bogus. Timex is mass produced and readily available, Brass is not! Some people appreciate art, then there are others who have no taste. Stephen
Stephen, I think what Mr. Smith is saying is that people who buy Rolex or Vacherons are buying art and people who buy Timex want something to tell them the time of day. When he states: "craftsmanship, rarity, satisfactionof ownership" I think he is referring to Rolex and Vacheron NOT Timex. The operative word should have been them rather than it.
Simon
the part i don't understand why its such a big deal about putting this together and why so many people are jammed up about there being this list. sure you can track the info down yourself and yes that can be a rewarding hobby in itself but. our 3 rail brothers have Greenberg books matchbox, doll, glass etc collectors all have collectors books available so if someone wants to undertake that and maybe make a buck selling this whats the big deal. i have a lot of brass cars and i'd love to see the list. heck even Bill Lenoir made a book of the locomotives he built and even sent me a list of the ones he didn't have in the book. i also have a list of all the Ken Henry locomotives which is very valuable trying to verify a real Henry locomotive. was that a waste of their time????
I am not holding my breath on the freight car list, but it would be great if you posted the Lenoir and Henry lists. I would love to see a photo of a good Ken Henry locomotive - was not impressed with those in the Baltimore museum. I understand they are not representative.
Try to compile a list of Joe Fischer cars and same thing. Info and cooperation dries up faster than spit on a rock in Arizona.. Doesn't anyone share anymore??? How can I learn to emulate a master if those that also appreciate his work wont SHARE. All I ever Wanted was a standard set of car shots, sides, ends, roof, and underbody. maybe interiors if owner willing. no other information required unless owner willing to provide. I would buy a book of brass cars even if it included all the poorly made cars just to have one for reference. Set the website up like Wikipedia and it could be edited.
For those that would like photos of the Yoder ACL cars, Why not visit his web page. They been up there for a while now. Stephen
Those are his pilot models; he had them at the last Strasburg show. The final cars have all of the minor changes that were made for production. If I were home i'd post some detailed photos of my cars.
Try to compile a list of Joe Fischer cars and same thing. Info and cooperation dries up faster than spit on a rock in Arizona.. Doesn't anyone share anymore??? How can I learn to emulate a master if those that also appreciate his work wont SHARE. All I ever Wanted was a standard set of car shots, sides, ends, roof, and underbody. maybe interiors if owner willing. no other information required unless owner willing to provide. I would buy a book of brass cars even if it included all the poorly made cars just to have one for reference. Set the website up like Wikipedia and it could be edited.
It's always bothersome when someone hides information like it was a multi-million dollar trade secret.
Anyway, I do intend to work on an O scale brass list for (at first) freight cars with a standard set of views of the car along with some rudimentary data. Makes the hobby more fun and ultimately that's what it is all about.
Just an idea. I had started a facebook acc. for the retired friends from work as we get together for a morning feast once in a while and it is easy to post what is happening with all. What I did was a simple thing that collects little fruit as many old guys aren't computer there yet. Me neither.
What I propose is that we start a facebook page for O scale brass that we can post subjects( models made with photos and some history to the models, when,etc.) People just have to keep to the plan of no sillyness, angry talk, as it is just to get out what has been produced. I find adding pictures a lot easier there than on the OGR site.
Phill
phill great idea i would be happy to post as i probably have close to 25 different pacific limited cars many psc overland custom brass sunset hallmark ush and max gray. so count me in. awhile back i posted pac limited variations of the x23 prr box and work cars is that the type pics you are looking for or multiple of each car?
bob2 i'd be happy to post the Lenoir and Henry lists but the are 244 of Lenoir's and 5 8.5x11 pages of Henry builds. i think the 3rail crowd would have a stroke if i posted that.
Re earlier comment on why anyone would pay a very high price for a Kohs car or locomotive? The quest for the perfect model, in essence, a shrunken prototype. Having studied the Kohs UP Challenger at the last Chicago March Meet, it was absolutely beautiful, and truly captured the feeling of "heft" of the prototype. I would consider a Kohs purchase, if he did a locomotive I had interest in, but economics forces him to do locomotives that have been done over and over. Big Boys, UP Challengers, NYC Hudsons, even N&W A's have all been done, nearly unto death in O Scale! Now a Rock Island 5100 or 5000.......that might be a different story!
i'd be happy to post the Lenoir and Henry lists but the are 244 of Lenoir's and 5 8.5x11 pages of Henry builds. i think the 3rail crowd would have a stroke if i posted that.
Convert it to a pdf file and post it as an attachment?
I certainly should have written "them" in reference to the Rolex and the other brand. At first I just listed Rolex, then added Vacheron Constantine without remembering to change the pronoun, which led to ambiguity. I have a Rolex I've been wearing every day
for 30 years, and even though my cellphone gives me the time more accurately, I still
enjoy owning a well-made, rugged and dependable mechanical watch (it's also much
more water resistant than the cellphone). I'd say go ahead and collect those beautiful
brass models from Key and Kohs and others if you want to.
I tried to open a new FB account but it brings me back to my own so if anyone is interested in persueing this endeavor then go for it as I have no talents in this. But as soon as it is open I can then post some of my Brass, what little I own, and a brief history of my pieces, what I paid if I can remember back that far to help build a library of O scale brass for the community.
Phill
When did they start importing brass. I understand some of the first brought over were
individual items made in Japan, as a custom item, for military staioned there after
WWII. So late '40's..early '50's? If it was advertised....somebody has a library of all
the MR's, RMC's, etc., from that era to date (later probably just the "O" magazines),
that would have to be poured through for ads. I can't believe much of it was only
sold by word of mouth. It must be in print somewhere, and, unlike current tinplate,
I doubt of cancellations were common. With the library, they will need patience.
This isn't like structure kit builders, who ginned out 50 kits, got tired of stuffing
boxes after running one ad, and faded away. Importing, even then, was a bigger deal.
I am not holding my breath on the freight car list, but it would be great if you posted the Lenoir and Henry lists. I would love to see a photo of a good Ken Henry locomotive - was not impressed with those in the Baltimore museum. I understand they are not representative.
There is a fairly comprehensive book (paperback) on Bill Lenoir's stuff, and I think some of Ken Henry's Locos were detailed in one or more issues of the late great "O Scale News"
Simon
I have both of those - I thought he said he had unpublished info. I don't have much interest in a list - photos are all I personally care about.
I'm pleased to have the variety of brass items on my railroad but I'd agree with Ed Rappe that I'm interested in the models no matter what they are made of.
I think a brass list would be an enormous task.
I'll be starting a Norfolk and Western 0 scale specific list thread in the next week or so that will include the prototype years of operation for specific items. It will be somewhat in the spirit of Ted Hikel's threads. I think I can make it manageable so the thread can be fluid with suggestions and input while adjusting and correcting it in the initial page of the thread under 5 or so categories. I don't plan to do it all at once but add to it over time.
It would be cool to have similar threads for other railroads. This way all of the work can be spread around to people who are knowledgeable in those railroads. It would be useful to know which items fit the year I model.
I'm pleased to have the variety of brass items on my railroad but I'd agree with Ed Rappe that I'm interested in the models no matter what they are made of.
I think a brass list would be an enormous task.
I'll be starting a Norfolk and Western 0 scale specific list thread in the next week or so that will include the prototype years of operation for specific items. It will be somewhat in the spirit of Ted Hikel's threads. I think I can make it manageable so the thread can be fluid with suggestions and input while adjusting and correcting it in the initial page of the thread under 5 or so categories. I don't plan to do it all at once but add to it over time.
It would be cool to have similar threads for other railroads. This way all of the work can be spread around to people who are knowledgeable in those railroads. It would be useful to know which items fit the year I model.
Another item that would be good to have on any brass (or plastic) list is the availability of decals or the accuracy of the RTR paint schemes.
I just acquired an N&W H1 2 pocket hopper and have the task of finding suitable decals for the car. Finding accurate decals (and sometimes trucks) is a chore.
Having a database or thread to share info is a good thing.
this is when an Alps printer comes in handy.
Best I can do is dry transfer set from Clover House but that's for an H9 - maybe adaptable?
I tried to open a new FB account but it brings me back to my own so if anyone is interested in persueing this endeavor then go for it as I have no talents in this. But as soon as it is open I can then post some of my Brass, what little I own, and a brief history of my pieces, what I paid if I can remember back that far to help build a library of O scale brass for the community.
Phill
I'm on facebook a lot; have a personal page as a small PT business page. It appears quite easy to Create a Group. I know little about brass models but get a/few people willing to be Admin, Create a Group (what's the name?) and it should be easy peasy.
Anyone else get their Yoder cars yet?
Curious as to the crowd response...
We're all sick and instead of watching the goober bowl I'm watching brass train cars on eBay. Some finals:
Pacific Limited X23 with Creco door, painted, $383.54+sh.
Hobbyhill type II reefer nice but incorrect SOO LINE F/P - $282+sh
PSC X28 painted - $138+sh
Plus a PSC X29 (which looked like mislabeled Max Gray car)... didn't watch since it was mislabeled.
Pearls Before Swine had a good take on the Super Bowl. And its author is a sports guy!
My take? All the local pilots gathered somewhere to watch the kickoff, and I took over the airport. Twelve landings on six different runways in 40 minutes flat. I still don't know who won - my Greek spouse thinks I am an ignoramus.
On the brass front - drilled all the holes for my Challenger tender ladders, and discovered I am out of .032 poles. To the hardware store tomorrow. Hope nobody asks about the football game!
Smart lady, she is!
Jay
292, Yes as I too was watching Ebay over the weekend as there was a used 2 rail MTH UP AC4400 that sparked my interest at the offering at $202 but on Sunday shot up over $350 a fact that took me out of the bidding on a used model at this time. Most any other time I might be all over it as I didn't have this model and its engine number. I am not interested in tryng to find decals and renumbering the engines especially the number boards. Well, I'll keep my eye fixed for another in the future. Oh, I did follow the bowl and I had no real favorite but the game was great as it was exciting as it wasn't a blow out.
Phill
Phil
Robbie,
I was shocked when the x23 blew thru $300. I have not paid higher than that in the past.. They aren't rare; though the paint and decal work was quite good.
What else was interesting is that the PRB Sk-T/U stock car went for $192.50. When seen they usually go for over the $275 ($295???) list price they sold for.
And it had an ajax power hand brake which makes it super desirable into the diesel era.
Somebody got a steal on that pretty rarely seen car.
Prices were all over the place over the weekend, no doubt.
I believe the mis- identified X29 was a Grabowski car.
Prices were all over the place over the weekend, no doubt.
I believe the mis- identified X29 was a Grabowski car.
Hmmm, I didn't look as close as I should have...
Unfortunately I removed it from my watch list so I don't have a link to the number or I'd go back and have a closer look.
Too bad Steve didn't get to doing an X29 series like his H21's and H25's. Still seems kind of strange that the most important boxcar of the 1920-1960 era was never accurately done in brass.
It's truly the ONE car that everyone ought to have in a train if they model anything up to the early 60's since as late as 1959 there were still 18,000 original style X29 cars still running.
I love to watch videos of NKP Berks, Cab Forwards, UP turbines and DD's and pick out the puny X29's in the consist. They literally were everywhere.
I know what you mean about not looking closely enough, I missed that the PRB stock car had the ajax power hand brake.
The X29 was auction #381141311732
I agree that it would be nice to have the other X29 variants,
or for that matter, I'd really like a decent X25
I forgot to ask this question.
Does anyone weather their brass cars?
I was looking at some Rich Yoder stock cars that Gary Schrader weathered. They look great but how many actually weather their brass cars. The vast majority of the ones I see for sale are not weathered.
Hi Howard
I weathered all my cars brass or plastic but for me it's the quality of weathering that is important it's not just airbrushing the cars, well you can mix many technic. Also
on our layout it's important to give an atmosphere not only on the cars but vehicle buildings and all that can compose the scenery
I love it 
I can see why you guys weather your cars! Great work.
Dan Glasure had a two Volume set available several years ago (1)The BrassTrain Guide Book ( hard back ),(2)Brass Model Trains: Price and Data Guide. While it is mostly ''HO'' there is a decent section dedicated to ''O'' scale. I do not know if it is still available. Type in Brasstrains.com for more info.
Beautiful weathering, guys.
Don (Industrialmodels) gave a wonderful clinic at the 2008 OSN in Worcester on weathering with acrylics. Hints like remembering that trains pick up the rusty residue of brake shoe wear.
Excellent stuff... especially things like the peeling paint on the tank trailer and the subtle rust around the couplers.
Great work! I'm always astonished to see such fine work.
Erik - Starting with your narrow gauge caboose and then the engines below it, they were the last things I had on the browser when I lost my internet connection. That forced me to look at the weathering overnight. Thanks for posting that fine work.
SO... coming out of the March Meet. Rich Yoder is updating the pictures and info for his Mather car offering. He had updated print documentation for the Mather project at the show.
Norm Buckhart announced that the 1937 car project is taking shape. Up after the GN cars will be the 1937 cars and they will include the Canadian cars with the unusual NSC proprietary ends.
After the 1937 cars he reported that he wants to do a 37' meat reefer.
THEN a PRR X31 round roofer.
Life is good for the brasser.
I love it
Wow...although not a fan of the "Q" per se,this is awesome!!! Red Caboose...?
Mark in Oregon
Strummer,
Yes, Red Caboose with added details - steam generator for passenger service AND (wait for it) engine heater (not in view in this photo). This loco is in a display case on my book case and I can glance from it down to two SD70Ace on the joint line.
I'm a big fan of the "Q", traveled in my youth from Chicago to Denver/Boulder and return each summer to visit my Grandmother, Aunt and too many cousins to count.
ChipR
Bumpety bump!!! Norm at Protocraft just listed the first release of the 1937 AAR series - the GN wood sheathed variants that have never been done in O scale:
Beauteeful! I hope to find a 6k 2 dome car some day... needed an X23 worse so I traded a certain fella that needed a 3 dome 8k car worse than me.
Now HERE is a brass caboose.
Boo Rim at their finest.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4...OSwjVVV2kyY/$_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4...OSwLVZV2k0y/$_57.JPG
Now HERE is a brass caboose.
Boo Rim at their finest.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4...OSwjVVV2kyY/$_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4...OSwLVZV2k0y/$_57.JPG
Yes. Totally. Absolutely beautiful cabeese.
But, a question I've always wanted to ask but felt it would sound like nit picking. So, here goes anyway. No disrespect intended.
How come they pay all that attention to scale accuracy and detail on the underside and yet still use the big funky screws to attach the trucks to the frame? And same for the Kadee coupler box screws.
Not to the same degree, but, kinda like the 3 Rail Scale guys do all the absolutely great modelling and ignore the center rail.
Hey, I'm really curious and just asking,
I had the C&LS wm caboose; sold it. While very well done, I much prefer PRB atsf and Overland wood cabeese.
My trains run a good bit of their route at eye level. I'd submit the screw holding on the trucks is impossible to see. Many of the details under freight cars actually are visible at eye level. One great example is on Yoder's battleship gons. Gobbs of details on the bottoms of the cars. Skirted passenger cars are a different story and much of that is a waste unless you pick the car up and turn it over.
Many of the details under freight cars actually are visible at eye level.
Totally agree, but then why all the extra detail on the above cabeese that can only be seen by turning the car over only to see the big, funky truck and coupler box screws. That's the point.
I think it's a hobby accepted blind spot like. What do you think.
Most of the details under the caboose can probably be seen from the side at eye level on the track so it has to be there. The screws under the trucks and coupler box could have been handled better. On most of my cars the truck screws are countersunk up in the trucks out of site.
Cool cars, Erik. I would not call other people's stuff toys, though. Whether something is toy or not is different for everyone. It is like one person's junk is another man's treasure type of thing.
Yes. Totally. Absolutely beautiful cabeese.
But, a question I've always wanted to ask but felt it would sound like nit picking. So, here goes anyway. No disrespect intended.
How come they pay all that attention to scale accuracy and detail on the underside and yet still use the big funky screws to attach the trucks to the frame? And same for the Kadee coupler box screws.
Not to the same degree, but, kinda like the 3 Rail Scale guys do all the absolutely great modelling and ignore the center rail.
Hey, I'm really curious and just asking,
Most of the models I know of hide the truck screw where the kingpin would be.
As for the "coupler pocket" this is one gripe of mine that a few manufacturers have solved. Steve Grabowski of KMW offered both scale draft gear and Kadee compatible versions of all of his cars.
And Gene Deimling recently had a posting on the P:48 list of upcoming Protocraft scale width/size draft gear boxes ("coupler pockets".
The draft gear area is one place that O scale models could be improved upon since there are things such as Duryea or Cardwell draft gear/cushioning that are pretty obvious.
But considering that O scale took until last year to get mass-produced assembled scale sized couplers (discounting the decades-old Bill Clouser scale coupler) much of this is simply because many O scalers don't care about the little details (notwithstanding that oversized "coupler pockets" are often necessary so that the coupler can slew to allow sharp radius model curves).
My trains run a good bit of their route at eye level. I'd submit the screw holding on the trucks is impossible to see. Many of the details under freight cars actually are visible at eye level. One great example is on Yoder's battleship gons. Gobbs of details on the bottoms of the cars. Skirted passenger cars are a different story and much of that is a waste unless you pick the car up and turn it over.
Totally agree, but then why all the extra detail on the above cabeese that can only be seen by turning the car over only to see the big, funky truck and coupler box screws. That's the point.
I think it's a hobby accepted blind spot like. What do you think.
Bill,
Nowhere is it written that you have to buy the stuff, and there is plenty of it out there without the detail. It's all in what you like, as in personal preference. The "elevator" stops at all different levels of detail. Get off where you like. Too d*mn many folks in this hobby worry about what the other guy is doing. Do what you enjoy/like!
Simon
PS: I wish I knew what half that crap under those passenger cars is for! Do you think maybe they are pulling our legs?
Remember "Cal-Scale" detail parts? The HO scale AB freight and and passenger UC brake sets had a piping diagram and a list of what the components are... all in the tiny little parts bag that they came in
Remember "Cal-Scale" detail parts? The HO scale AB freight and and passenger UC brake sets had a piping diagram and a list of what the components are... all in the tiny little parts bag that they came in
Rob, I have purchased many Cal-Scale detail parts in "O", but have never seen the diagrams you mention. I am fairly sure US Hobbies offered little add on kits to upgrade the underside of their cars back when. One of these days when I have a bit more free time (Ha!), I will undertake the task of getting some more edjumication on the subject.
Simon
The other side of this is that one can easily replace these screws. If the look of slots and/or phillips sockets bothers you, Micro Fasteners sells socket head aircraft quality steel screws In both metric and SAE.
I am with Chris here - I put just enough underbody detail on so I can see it at eye level. As you no doubt can tell, my biggest problem with O Scale 2-rail is the gauge. It is for me an appearance thing, and not the old "anything Russian cannot be good" business I learned as a kid.
I do screw replacement on steam - where Lobaugh supplied a slotted brass 0-80 crankpin screw you will find alloy steel flat head socket head screws. You really have to have good glasses to see it, and they do not make Allen wrenches as good as they used to, but still, that is what i do.
Back to brass trains. Chris, this one is for you. A caboose to go with the SD45 coming that will surpass all other models to date. Custom decals made for model.
Stephen
How come they pay all that attention to scale accuracy and detail on the underside and yet still use the big funky screws to attach the trucks to the frame?
Hey, I'm really curious and just asking,
Now I know why I had been hesitating to ask the question. But, then I have enjoyed reading the responses and responses to responses. No harm meant.
To answer my own question based on the responses, I think it is true that under certain conditions on a layout one can see most of the underside detail and not see the big funky truck screws.
But, I also still believe that it's partially an industry/hobbiest accepted standard resulting in just ignoring the big funky screw while looking at all the other detail. Call it a selective blind spot. We do it all the time in other ways to our engines and rolling stock and of course, the O5W track scale being wrong. The human eye beautifully adapts.
The reason I think this is because the top end model rolling stock builders and truck builders could mount the funky screw from the inside almost all hollow cars and/or counter sink it deeper and provide a plug to hide it. I'm referring to the top end here.
To paraphrase Frank Ellison (I think he said it first). My train room is my theatre. The layout is my stage. The buildings and scenery are the props. The engines and rolling stock are my main and supporting actors. There is a back stage crew doing lighting and providing the other technologies like DCC. I am the Director and Producer. I strive to put on a reasonably authentic play that pleases myself and the audience.
I have a sign on the box office that requests nit-pickers and rivet counters to please remove their glasses before entering the show -- as the management is insecure -- and the overriding objective is fun and enjoyment.
To meet this need I'm comfortable with the Sunset 3rd Rail engines and rolling stock level of detail and price point -- and reliability out of the box. This using Sunset only as an example and not to the exclusion of others and not to get a row going on comparing all the mid level mfgrs. I have items from them all.
This is a great topic and I have thoroughly enjoyed looking at the superior photos of all the eye candy whether called a model or a toy. Didn't mean to rob it with my question.
Hope to see more inspiring photos.
Bill
Erik,
Yes, certainly the infringement in our disagreement is a circular one. I wouldn't let the disagreement get in the way, though. I do appreciate your thoughtful response and participation, not just in this post but others as well.
Bill, I don't have a problem at all with your question about the screws.
I have to get down to the basement to see if I can find a nice brass piece to post tomorrow.
Hey Guys....I had SEVERAL alerts complaining about how this topic got "off topic"...so I edited and deleted the best I could to get it back on track. Took me about 20 minutes and honestly don't want to have to do it again....please!! This is a great thread, lets keep it that way.
Thanks,
Alan
Are you certain about that? What if we could take the old 'ACME' shrink ray and shrink a prototype car and some track. Any reason to think performance (under scale identical circumstances) would not be the same?
I am guessing one of the key factors is weight, and I'm also guessing a typical "O" model is a lot lighter than a miniaturized (both size and weight wise) car would be. Don't know if it has ever been done, but the results might be interesting.
Simon
Take for example. a Big Boy is listed as weighing 540,000 lbs.
Divide by 48 and you get 11,280 lbs! 
Should stick to the track nicely.
Are you certain about that? What if we could take the old 'ACME' shrink ray and shrink a prototype car and some track. Any reason to think performance (under scale identical circumstances) would not be the same?
I am guessing one of the key factors is weight, and I'm also guessing a typical "O" model is a lot lighter than a miniaturized (both size and weight wise) car would be. Don't know if it has ever been done, but the results might be interesting.
Simon
Take for example. a Big Boy is listed as weighing 540,000 lbs.
Divide by 48 and you get 11,280 lbs!
Should stick to the track nicely.
PS: You pay the postage.
I have often wondered about all that, but not enough to do the math.
N Scale seems to work just fine with very teeny wheel tread and flange depth. Folks say that O Scale also works just fine with .115 tread width and small flanges, but I had only moderate success with it. My tracklaying skills are no doubt at fault, but still - why do we need such giant wheels and flanges for reliable operation?
The math was not that tough and I can't help but think that the weight does not play an important role. I'm sure there are pros and cons.
Simon
Scaling down weight involves scaling down volume and goes as the cube as there is length, width and height to scale down. 48X48X48=110,592
560,000 lbs divided by 110,592 = 4.88 lbs for an O scale Big Boy. But if the 560K is dry weight and a loaded BB weighs around 1,000,000 lbs then the weight would be about a scale 9 lbs.
My Sunset Big Boy weighs 12.25 lbs. Bet if I shaved the boiler lead weight?? Hmmm.
I'm sure the weight plays a role. But maybe we are not as far off as you think. I suspect the weight is more akin to a "3D" measure like volume when it comes to scaling down. So 540,000lbs/48 cubed = 4.9lbs
Although I think the Big Boy was more like 1.25 million lbs with tender in operation. So that's more like 11lbs for engine and tender. Certainly I experience much better operations when all my cars are weighted to NMRA plus ~50%.
But I think the fact that none of the physics such as momentum, inertia, "stiction", friction etc. scales down nicely all contribute to our challenges.
OOPS, sorry Austin Bill, you were ahead of me!
Pete
Although I think the Big Boy was more like 1.25 million lbs with tender in operation. So that's more like 11lbs for engine and tender. Certainly I experience much better operations when all my cars are weighted to NMRA plus ~50%.
But I think the fact that none of the physics such as momentum, inertia, "stiction", friction etc. scales down nicely all contribute to our challenges.
Pete
Big Whoops on the weight.....I was in a hurry and misread and got the weight on Drivers figure.
Not sure if all the physics would apply if a real item could actually be shrunk. My main point is, I seriously doubt a model is going to behave like the real thing.
Simon
Pete is on the right track. Ask yourself why HO is so reliable in operation, while we have problems with the same wheel tread profiles? Or why the 3-railers need those giant flanges? There is more to the math than a simple ratio and proportion. Some things do not scale down well - gravity and friction come to mind.
Yeah, I have done math like that. I wrote a computer program for the 737 at various weights and flap settings, computing takeoff run and climb angles for our Orange County departures. I shall skip that in my hobby, and stay with .172 wheels.
Ask yourself why HO is so reliable in operation, while we have problems with the same wheel tread profiles?
I have operated on HO layouts that were both horribly unreliable and extremely reliable - it's not scale, it's the human element that is the critical variable.
Or why the 3-railers need those giant flanges?
They don't.
There is more to the math than a simple ratio and proportion. Some things do not scale down well - gravity and friction come to mind.
Last I checked, gravity does not scale - tends to be pretty constant on this planet.
Stephen,
The caboose is very nicely done. I'm assuming it is the 0 scale version.
Guys,
Here are some images of the Yoder battleship gon. I know it was commented on earlier, but if I were the one actually soldering all of these pipes together, I'd probably mix a few up just to see if anyone noticed. These images are not nearly as good as Erik's and others but I think they show off some of the junk on these things well enough if you click on them.
The model isn't warped as it might appear in the photo. That is the fault of the photographer who would like to blame it on the camera.
One must be cautious about warped photographers.....
Yeah well he may be a warped photographer, but your pig runs backwards.
Joke!
Thanks for the caboose photo compliments Chris. I'll post more O scale brass project photos.
Stephen
Chris, here's a few more photos of N&W brass projects.
Please tell us more about the transfer caboose; scale and source/importer. Don't believe that I've seen that one before
All photos are O Scale. The Transfer caboose is an early Atlas O scale caboose that was cut down and spliced together. Everthing else is scratched built from styrene. Done in the late 80s. Cude till I get time to do a better one, but works for now.
Stephen
All photos are O Scale. The Transfer caboose is an early Atlas O scale caboose that was cut down and spliced together. Everthing else is scratched built from styrene. Done in the late 80s. Cude till I get time to do a better one, but works for now.
Stephen
Excellent! Nice use of the early Atlas stuff which make great raw materials.
Any more pictures of it available?
Very nice stuff Stephen. I particularly like the Virginian 44 tonner.
Simon
Simon: When I researched the VGN paint scheme, I found 4 different variations.
The 44t has dual speakers with lok sound. I am near completetion of a correct N&W Alco T6.
Haven't decided on Sound or not.
Stephen
Thank you for the compliments Erik.
Stephen
Yeeehaw!
Just got shipping confirmation - the first of the Protocraft 1937 GN Wood sheathed ARA boxcars are shipping!!!
The plywood side cars with the Camel composite doors are already sold out! They will look great in Omaha orange or for some of the post-1956 cars, Vermillion.
WONDERFUL time to be in O scale.
OK, here's one to ponder. Several years back the late Larry Muir and Mike Hill imported tank cars. As best I recall there were 8,000 and 10,000 single domers. There was no prototype for these cars, so I'm told, but they sold well and still do to this day. What did the builders use to construct them, and considering how whacked out some folks get when something is not "correct", why did they sell so well?
Simon
The non- whacked out folks bought them?
I sort of missed them, even though I know/knew both guys. Got a photo? These aren't the very expensive Drake cars, are they?
OK, here's one to ponder. Several years back the late Larry Muir and Mike Hill imported tank cars. As best I recall there were 8,000 and 10,000 single domers. There was no prototype for these cars, so I'm told, but they sold well and still do to this day. What did the builders use to construct them, and considering how whacked out some folks get when something is not "correct", why did they sell so well?
Simon
I haven't seen them for a while (they listed at $199.99 if I recall) but they were just a standard ACF type 27 I think, taken right from the ACF drawings. Not that different from the PSC car.
There are very few accurate tank cars in O scale other than the "Gramps" cars or the Drake cars... and even those are ACF cars. Not very much standardization in the prototype cars and lots of different manufacturers make it tough to do a brass tank car.
The scale really needs a series of UTLX A3 cars but since they aren't anything but basic black it is unlikely to see them. Hope springs eternal though.
No, they were not the Drake cars....I think most of the Drakes had multiple domes. Pretty sure they (the Hobbyhills) retailed at $299.99. I know Bob Anson painted many of them. Hobbyhill also brought in a line of very colorful reefers, which I think were also decorated here in the states.
Simon
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