Let's talk about cell phones at York

You're spot-on with that comment, Eddie. 

HOWEVER, why limit it to Ohio and why limit it to "serious" hobbyists?  My feeling is if you enjoy this hobby, and if you live within an affordable commuting distance from York (even if it be as far away as California, Hawaii, Europe, Australia, etc.), and you don't attend York because you can't abide by any of the meet rules (cell phone or otherwise), you are definitely missing out on a great experience.

Let's leave it alone. It's a TCA Eastern Div. rule NOT TCA's Please allow TCA Eastern Div. settle their own problems.

Exactly!  If it were allowed, there's no way to split up those who may be able to function without impacting others from those that cannot.

(It should be quite telling to those who support it that Matry is obviously not a tecnophobe with a QR-code in his signature file.  That should open eyes to the point it's not just a bunch of  "grumpy old men", "old guard", etc. that don't want to embrace the technology and have cell phones take over the meet)

-Dave

this seems all beyond me????????

Enlighten me all ye TCA Gods.

Why is there a phone restriction

in the first place??????????

MaryE

My post has absolutely nothing to do with cell phones. I could care less. It's in reference to TCA discussions period..

Marty, at first I thought that your account might have been hacked by Eddie G. but that is not the case ...correct?   The York phone use topic has been a recurring/stewing topic on this and other forums just as often as the debates on mfr. quality control and brand loyalties.  This cellphone topic seems to stew long because there is still belief by enough people that the topic is important and not burnt out.  Just like in life, love, religion, politics, and laws ...it sometimes takes longer for things to change or remain the same.  The "horse" might still have some life.  But I can understand some cases where change might not be so good.  I think I was happier, or at least less mad, when there were only 4 television networks and only channels 2 through 13 or even less when we were exclusively Over The Air.

First off, I don't have a "smart phone" and probably use less than 20 minutes of air time in a month in my prepaid plan.  As to your request to explain how the use of a cell phone promotes the hobby, I think the explanation lies somewhere within the answer to the question: Does a ban on cell phones (or photos) demote and/or reduce the public's perception and subsequent willingness to be a part of this hobby?  I think think the EDiv's current "no cell phone use in the halls" and "no photography in any hall" restrictions creates a negative image to the public (model RR hobbyists and non-hobbyists) who are not TCA members.  There are probably a significant number of people who choose not to join the TCA because they are put off by such restrictions that are universally permitted by every other organization or train meet.

The E.Div's purpose is defined in the bylaws:

--The purpose of the Eastern Division shall be to preserve the history of train collecting and to encourage the pursuit of this activity through research, education, community outreach, fellowship, and sponsorship of train meets.

and deliberately lacks the "promote" line that the TCA national and other divisions include in their bylaws:

"To develop an appreciation of and to preserve an important segment of history - Tinplate Toy Trains - through research, education, community outreach, fellowship, establishment of collecting standards, and to promote the growth and enjoyment of collecting and operating toy, model and scale trains.

So does the E.Div need to be required to "promote the growth and enjoyment" of the hobby?  I guess that answer depends on your interpretation of E.Div's "encourage the pursuit... through ...community outreach and sponsorship of train meets."  From what I see at York and other train meets, participation by table holders and some attendants is down.  The E.Div's York published badge request number is flawed because the number does not count actual attendance - which would be difficult to effectively and efficiently accomplish in such a multi-building setup.  TCA membership is declining.  How is the E.Div "encouraging the pursuit" of the train collecting hobby activity when their meets are closed to non-members or hobbyists and open to those that already pursue the hobby.  Sounds similar to the "preaching to the choir" analogy.

IMO, the National TCA should be more active in ensuring that it's regional divisions universally abide by the mission statement of the national organization to which they are affiliated or chartered.  The Nat'l TCA grew in membership from the 1980's to the 2001 high water mark.  With that growth and that era's train collecting market psyche the E.Div's York meet provided the E.Div with increased power, status and industry influence.  During this go-go period TCA members, dealers, and manufacturers were happy with the ride.  Then, BOOM! manufacturer turmoil: lawsuits flying, consolidations, reorganizations, liquidations, dealership closings and a national economic crisis.  Membership decreases and a scaled back O gauge market will or has lead to rethinking Std. Operating Procedures especially those dealers and manufacturers that helped make the E.Div.'s York meet grow from a hall of members trading trains to a grand industry event.

I disagree that we are the E.Div's "guest" at York.  Despite the ever increasing psychological misuse of the word "guest" by the likes of hotel chains, Target and other retailers we are their and the E.Div's customer.  As a customer, we can choose where we shop.  So if the E.Div or the national TCA chooses to ignore their customers, the customers (members, dealers, manufacturers) will eventually find other sources (train meets, online, and direct sales) to get their information and products to the users.  Their appears to be a growth in interest by dealers and manufacturers with some other regions' large train shows.  The E.Div. should not ignore these trending numbers or it will shrink back to its one hall member "trading" event.

So true and I'd like to think that TCA members have better manners than the general public where a discreet, short and to the point phone conversation is often the exception and not the norm.  I miss the phone booth.

NO cell phones in the halls. That'a (sp) the rule. Either abide by it or don't go to the meet. Why must you Allan, which supprise's (sp) me, start something like this on the forum. If you don't like the rule don't GO. This is really stupid. You & Rich don't like the way York is run because neither of you are COLLECTORS. It's a collectors meet. TCA do you know what it stands for? You are lucky you have the Orange & purple halls to promote the new stuff.

Eddie and Marty, just as you, Alan & Rich have every right to offer their personal and business opinions.  If the phone rule does change, will you no longer attend or be a member?  Currently, the E.Div. does not equally enforce the phone ban between table holders and walking attendees.  I'm not referring to the use of a cell phone or laptop to process credit card payments.  For years I saw numerous table holding members and dealers (as indicated on the 8 8x11 hall maps with the circle and arrows and table listing on the back) talking (sometimes loudly and often not about trains) on cell phones without warning or approach by one E.Div. official or security staff.  The "horse"

Arguably, you the "collector" might be considered the lucky one to have the Orange and Purple Halls to keep Blue/Silver going.  IMO, the growth (dealer/mfr.) that filled the Orange (formerly Yellow/Gold) and Purple halls was the financial life blood that helped the E.Div. grow in prominence and power.  The Orange and Purple Hall's dealer/mfr. registration financial blood is probably what primarily pays the E.Div's bills.

Your use of fear: the loud, self absorbed cell users are in the stores and malls now, do we want them into our last bastion and cellphone-free oasis (except of course for those aforementioned table holding members and dealers - as indicated on the 8 8x11 hall maps with the circle and arrows and table listing on the back -) because we will eventually be overrun by rude and loud talking cell phone users is the position that is like the membership numbers ...getting old and withered.

On a related topic - FWIW, I've been banged in the ankle more times by scooter-chairs and wheelchairs at York than strollers at other events.

You too should be careful for what you wish for; as you also might get it i.e. a one hall, one day trading event.

I read Lou Palumbo's "Views from the Underground" column on page 31 of the May 2013 issue.  Lou's column is titled "iPhonia...We can benefit by using cell phones at train shows."   I agree with him 100%.  I was out in the Pittsburgh area last weekend and wanted to take a drive up to his shop and thank him for the bold suggestion.  Unfortunately I was tied up with other more pressing issues.  It may be a collectors meet, but there are a lot more operators involved in the hobby now days. 

quote:

Eddie, I realize you don't give a hoot.  But just imagine the drop in attendance/membership if there were no Orange or Purple Halls at York.  Aside from meeting with old and new friends, the Orange, Purple and Brown Halls are the ONLY halls I visit at York.  Despite the TCA name, it's an OPERATOR's world now, and we all do a bit of collecting along the way.  So please get over the "collector"

I guess we all like to project.

This poster only visits the Orange, Purple and Brown Halls.

I don't visit the Purple or Brown halls at all. I do visit the Orange hall, but if it closed, my York experience would be pretty much unchanged.

A number of people have posted that they are so attached to their phones that they cannot be without them. I guess these folks don't go to movies, concerts, or other similar events.

People also tend to state that the York show would shrink as would the TCA itself unless the show and organization becomes more operator centric.

We can argue over whether this is so. Regardless, I'd rather belong to a smaller organization and/or attend a smaller train show that is focused on my interests. I joined a collector's organization, and a collector's organization it should remain (operators are welcome too).

I would suggest that cell phones could be allowed in the dealer halls as a first step. At least most aisle ways are wide enough to allow a person to stop at the edge of the aisle and use a phone. In the dealer halls there is barely enough space for two people with a healthy BMI to pass one another and many with a cell don't know how to walk and talk at the same time.

Pete

The funny thing to me is this concept that communication is limited to talking on the phone in the halls. 

I wonder how many texts fly around in those halls at York?

That's one heck of a post you wrote, Keystone!  Well thought out and nicely presented.

If anyone is interested in proposing a rule change this is the procedure to follow.

ARTICLE XVII – AMENDMENTS

Section 1. Regular Procedure - Proposed amendments to the Bylaws shall be submitted to the Rules and Regulations Committee for review and recommendation. The Committee shall have the authority to combine, edit, and organize proposals that address the same topic and that have similar objectives. The Rules and Regulations Committee shall give notice of proposed amendments to these bylaws in the call of one of the semi-annual Membership Business Meetings.

Upon an affirmative majority vote by the members at the business meeting, the amendment shall be submitted to the entire membership, for vote by mail ballot. If a majority of the ballots returned are affirmative, the amendments shall be approved.

Section 2. Revision of Bylaws - The Rules and Regulations Committee shall be authorized, when needed, to draft a proposed revision of these bylaws. The Committee shall submit the proposed revision in the call of one of the semi-annual Membership Business Meetings. Upon an affirmative majority vote by the members at the business meeting, the proposed revision shall be submitted for vote by mail ballot. If a majority of the ballots returned are affirmative, the revision shall be approved.

I agree 100%    The main points of mine are the cell phone - not really for talking, but more for checking the internet on items, looking up an item, being able to reach my wife & children if they need me.  The other is the stroller issue - While I am on the young side here - 34.  My daughter & soon to be born child are the future of this hobby.  if I want to go to York & take them in with me to show them the layouts, spend the day bonding over this hobby, etc it's easier to have them in a stroller where they can be watched & buckled in rather than running loose & trying to watch them while walking around the halls.

these are justmy opinions on the matter & I mean no disrespect towards anyone

May all of you be lucky enough to be a GRUMPY OLD MAN of 62 like me!!!  Lou Palumbo buys/sells trains for profit, and wishes to communicate with his buddies scouring the various halls for him...everyone has an agenda...FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!  As for the NONMEMBERS on OGR predicting doom and gloom, we succeed because of the people who promote our club and are MEMBERS!!!  Long live YORK...TCA...TCA MEMBERS!!!  Gotta run...one of my buddies just called from the Red Hall...someone has a Blue Comet with a Cream Stripe...should I buy it for ya Lou???  YOU ARE BREAKING UP...I didn't catch that...How much can we turn it for??? CLICK!!!

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts:

Oh WAH, WAH, WAH!!  Such angst, such unbridled passion!  Just think, if we put all this energy into building layouts, OGR would have 350 pages each issue!

It must be close to York Meet time for this to come up.... again.  Now that we can't whine about the two signature rule, the cell phone restrictions are next.... probably followed by the camera restrictions all the way down to the arrows on the floor.

But to think we need cell phones "to build the hobby", well, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that.  Maybe MTH, Lionel, Atlas O, Bachman, 3rd Rail, Weaver and all the others should just put a cell phone in every locomotive box!  Are not the trains themselves suppose to be the attraction?

But seriously, I have no issue with anyone using a phone when they need to.  Not joining the TCA because one single division meet only restricts phone use inside a hall doesn't make sense to me.  I do realize there are some people who don't like to follow any rules of any kind.  

I haven't read the article yet, but from the comments made here, I just wonder what Mr. Palumbo would think if say, 5 or 6 people were crowding around his table in the Orange Hall chatting on their phones preventing other buyers from purchasing items.

Actually I think any perceived problems of using cell phones would be minimal.  It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the meet whatsoever.  All we have to do is get the issue to be put up for vote by the Eastern Division membership.  Let the members decide what they want for their party.  And whatever that decision is, we can then decide if we want to attend and enjoy the Meet, see old friends, make new ones and enjoy the oodles of trains on display for sale.

It's not a TCA rule, it's a rule established by the Eastern Division of the TCA.  (I had to repeat that since some can't seem to distinguish the two.)

Have fun at the meet everybody!!

Since you have chosen to bring up CTT Allan:

After being a loyal subscriber to CTT for 15 yrs I expired my subscription about two years ago because of editorial policy. continuous recycling of feature stories, and landscaping projects that became little more than infomercials for their advertisers. It called voting w/ one's wallet.

As for "lets talk cell phone usage in the (York) halls? Lets not!

Has nothing to do with who you may or may not hang out with, but just what is observed in public.

I've been behind more than one or 2 people in the supermarket line who are clulessly jabbering on the phone while the cashier is trying to process their order.  They are generally paying more attention to the person on the phone than the cashier (like when it's time to pay, etc).   Normally the conversations don't have any substance.  It's "What are you doing?  Nothing, just waiting in line at the supermarket while I check out".

Was not the rule about walkie-talkies put into place because, or because of the fear of, some in-it-for-the-money dealers had armies of hirelings scouring every hall at opening to get first grabs on the bargains and good stuff, to resell for a large markup?  Is that NOT still a possibility with cell phones?  Why is it NOT?  Is this a birth defect?  I was not born with a phone in my ear....

As I see it the entire issue of no cell phones is full of hypocrisy. I say this because I've attended numerous TCA Eastern Division train shows run quarterly in Philly and cell phones are freely permitted there. No admonishments for their use or signs or other written or verbal warnings of any prohibition of such electronic devices including cameras has ever been displayed. If this rule is so vital to the TCA division which hosts York, then why isn't it in effect at their local shows?

As for users being loud and obnoxious,the majority of people today with so smart phones primarily communicate via texting not talking. It's frequently the "older" users of regular cell phoneswho you might hear talking loudy in public.

As for strollers, yes some users can be self-centered and bump into others with them but the same can be said for those using motorized scooters. A few times I've had a scooter wheel roll over my foot as its driver, without even offering an "excuse me," has literally nudged me out of their way as they've maneuvered up to the edge of a dealer table or display. Common courtesy or a lack of it can be found within any demographic group.     

It should be noted the rule as posted on the Eastern Division's web site (http://www.easterntca.org/rules.htm) reads "THE USE OF CELL PHONES IN THE HALLS IS PROHIBITED" That would include all data, web, text, and non-talking uses.

This is the rub for me, I don't need to talk in side the hall, but I do generally need my phone as tool to help keep track of what I already own, what the market value of an item might be, what features of specifics it might have, etc. All of which fall under "use of a cell phone" -- which is clearly prohibited.

All the posts about being able to use a cell phone to send or accept payments are in clear violation of the rule as posted. So which is it, cell phones or no cell phones, you cannot have it both ways.

The poster following my earlier comments, yes my phone is a highly integrated tool of both my personal and professional life. No I do not use it in Church, take calls in restaurants (at least I duck outside quickly if I have to take the call), nor do I use it a movie theater, however, the York Meet is on a Thursday and Friday -- running a business in the modern world does dictate that I respond in a timely manner to employees, clients, and suppliers, timely as in within hours not days. Taking time entirely away from work is a very, very limited reality for many of us who are 30 somethings and are building businesses or managing companies in the current economy, thus being able to entirely turn off / up plug to play with trains is not much of a reality for myself and I presume others as well.

I joined the TCA so as to not stand on the outside and throw stones, as a member I can write to those who represent me to voice my option and thoughts.

Also, an iPad is not a cell phone, thus falls outside the posted rules about the use of such.

If you mean the ones in the Painter's Hall on Southhampton road in North Philly, that is the Atlantic Division, not the Eastern Division, so the rules discussed here do not apply. 

Maybe you mean another meet I am not familiar with.

Is that any different than on this site when some forum members snap up underpriced items on the FS board and then flip them either here or on the bay for a considerable markup?

People say, let the buyer beware, then let that same advice apply to sellers too. It's the law of nature that the strong survive and the week and meek wither and perish. No one forces a seller to set a price on an item so low that another more savy seller will scoop up that item and flip it for a profit. Sounds like you're making a case for a seller soured or remorseful over their own inept selling skill.

Sorry, Dave, thank you for correcting my error.

quote:

 I say this because I've attended numerous TCA Eastern Division train shows run quarterly in Philly and cell phones are freely permitted there.

 According to the TCA web site, Philadelphia is in the Atlantic division, so it's probably their show. The Atlantic division makes their own show rules.

quote:

 however, the York Meet is on a Thursday and Friday -- running a business in the modern world does dictate that I respond in a timely manner to employees, clients, and suppliers, timely as in within hours not days. Taking time entirely away from work is a very, very limited reality for many of us who are 30 somethings and are building businesses or managing companies in the current economy, thus being able to entirely turn off / up plug to play with trains is not much of a reality for myself and I presume others as well.

I carried a business cell phone or pager everywhere I went 7 x 24 for over thirty years. That included York. I always tried to be considerate of others when I had to take a call, so there never really were any issues. The worst incident I had was a dirty look and being told to "take it outside" in a nasty tone which I was doing anyway. Didn't bother me one bit.

I'm not a York old-timer, and I have not read the CTT article Allan is referencing, but I haven't seen this question addressed in this thread, so here goes:

My understanding is that the no-phones rule is a newer, updated version of a previous no-walkie-talkies rule.  My understanding was that this no-walkie-talkies rule was put in place to level the playing field, so that folks who showed up at York and walked the tables would all have the same opportunity.

My understanding of the no-walkie-talkies rule was that it was felt that organized teams of spotters armed with communication devices, in contact with buyers who didn't bother to come to York, could scan the halls and pick up things their clients wanted - and this process would also include communication between the spotters in different halls, comparing prices and so on.

If all this is true, or partly true, or even theoretically possible, then all the talk about cell phone users turning into morons and standing oblivious in the middle of aisles; or about how irritating it is to have to listen to one side of someone else's phone conversation... is all irrelevant, at least to the TCA ED rule makers.

The question is not how useful, or necessary, or irritating, cell phones are, or how old-fashioned or high-tech people are, or whether we are collectors or operators.  The relevant question would be whether allowing cell phone use in the halls gives an unfair advantage to organized spotters, and how the rest of us feel about that.

If this whole issue is pretty much a non-issue, then there's not much point in the rule.  But I think the original rule was put in place either because abuse was happening, or the rule-makers could envision a York in which this abuse happened, which would be a lot less fun for the ones who actually showed up.

The rules as posted don't outline what the cause and effect are -- use your phone in the hall and be shown to the gate? Or something more like the old schoolmarm getting on my case about talking in class. The latter I can deal with the former would be a very costly (time and money) lesson in following the rules to the letter.

BTW, does anyone other than me find it ironic the Eastern Division TCA doesn't hold "their" event within their own geograhic area but needs to have it within the geographic area of the Keystone Division? I wonder how Keystone TCA members feel about this rule.  

Also wondering why there's such a wide disparity of geograhic area and membership numbers among "neighboring" divisions such as Eastern and Atlantic. In this time of  bigger is not always better why wouldn't areas in the Middle Atlantic region be under the auspice and umbrella of the Atlantic Division?  

Time to whip out the 3G iPad mini, its not a phone

quote:

The rules as posted don't outline what the cause and effect are -- use your phone in the hall and be shown to the gate?

Generally I find that folks respond in kind. Perhaps if I had been argumentative and nasty with the grump who told me to take it outside the outcome would have been different.

BINGO, hojack!  You have touched on the essence of the matter!  These days, virtually everyone has a cell phone, and a good percentage of the population has a so-called "smart phone" which, in reality, is a miniature computer that affords the user access to just about everything and anything.  They also have a camera that renders near-publication-quality images.

In short, like it or not, that old prohibition is not only outdated, but it's also essentially unenforceable on a practical basis.  Today's technology allows a person to check his inventory list, compare prices, access forums, text a friend, and countless other activities without ever holding the device up to one's ear or even uttering a single word.  It's no worse, and probably far less intrusive, than a person standing in an aisle checking a notebook page or consulting a price guide.  We are, like it or not, well into the 21st Century.

Since the show managers seem to be so obsessed with regulating legal behavior, why don't they ban people with B. O. or ugly Christmas sweaters? This is a fairgrounds, not a church. Annoying people are everywhere and they are not affected much by arbitrary rules that end up inconveniencing regular folks.

The rule that most discourages me from going to York is the archaic rule about photography.  I am a hobbyist that shares photos of the many train and non-train events that I attend.  Just as I don't go to shows wearing ugly sweaters or needing a shower, I take pictures without inconveniencing anybody.  Only once in decades+ was I asked to not take pictures of someone's stuff, so I nodded and moved on. No big deal.  I have no intentions of "monetizing" my pics, but they have gotten 100,000's of hits and brought enjoyment to many.  Leaving my little camera home just to abide by some archaic rule is a waste, on multiple levels.

-Mark

quote:

BTW, does anyone other than me find it ironic the Eastern Division TCA doesn't hold "their" event within their own geograhic area but needs to have it within the geographic area of the Keystone Division? I wonder how Keystone TCA members feel about this rule.  

The Keystone division was established in 1978. How long as the Eastern Division show been in York?

I don't think the physical location of the show gives the Keystone TCA members any more weight than other members of the TCA who do not belong to Eastern.
Regardless, I don't get the impression that the Eastern Division is inconsiderate towards non-Eastern members.

Quote from Hojack:

"My understanding of the no-walkie-talkies rule was that it was felt that organized teams of spotters armed with communication devices, in contact with buyers who didn't bother to come to York, could scan the halls and pick up things their clients wanted - and this process would also include communication between the spotters in different halls, comparing prices and so on."

My take-

I thought you went to a sale with product to sell as quickly as possible and leave with a full wallet and empty boxes.  Anything that would accelerate sales seems to be a good thing, why slow it down? Unless you consider your sale table a museum .

Define "regular folks." 

Hey thanks for throwing us operators under the bus there Ed! 

You do realize that if someone has a train or two whether they bought it, found it, received it as a gift or won it in a raffle they have by the very act of taking possesion of it have "collected" it. Doesn't matter how they came into it or how old or how many they have or what kind, I have a train collection that I run not a "pile" or "bunch" of trains that I run.

Define a collector for us as you see it.

Jerry

Let's see now:

NumberOne needs to define "regular folks" and Eddie needs to define "collector."  

Stay tuned (but don't miss supper for this one).