Lion Chief Plus performance

You sit high and mighty with your tone on this subject.  At times you talk like your on the board at Lionel, or invented the tech.

Regardless, it is just a different means of communicating.  It may be better, so what.  Many people hook there single command base up to a bigger than average size layout and have no issues.  Nor are they confused by buttons on the remote.

I got that others don't want any complexity, or want cheaper trains.

In the end, if Lionel adopts this tech and stops producing the older, but gives you all the capability Legacy does, just with LC protocol.  I want to be in the room when they tell the public, all their Lionel products (trains, switches, accessories, transformers) are obsolete unless you buy new ones that are LC+.  There is no backwards compatibility of this.  A LC+ Heavy remote with all the functions of Legacy won't work without an upgrade kit of electronics or a Bridge box.  If you need a bridge no gain so keep your CAB-2.

So it is just not fighting the last war, it is fighting decades of equipment folks purchased.  MTH went through that with PS-1 versus PS-2, and PS-1 was always conventional anyway.  But folks resented having $1000 engines that were not compatible with DCS.  Now everything pretty much is.

So I accept were LC+ fits in, but have heart burn with all the best there ever was stuff (you and others (your words)) talk about.  TMCC with cruise can do more then LC+ period.  PS-2 and 3 has more capability and engine related functions then Legacy.  It wasn't that long ago that even Legacy engines still had lights powered by track power or regulators vice the Legacy board.

Heck you have LC+ without tender reverse light? 

I am more interested in what the train does and how well it does, vice the remote and what frequency it is on.  I can see the train, I can't see the radio frequency.  If I press the whistle button an the whistle blows, I am happy.   G

Now you don't like my tone?   You get heartburn at all the positive, to you misleading, comments about the future of LionChief and LionChief Plus?  Perhaps you shouldn't read these threads, much less comment, since apparently you do not own and do not like the new equipment? 

People are asking for advice and insight, and you are determined to rain on their parade.  Those of us who have and like the new equipment are trying to help people and pointing out the long term potential of the technology.

This is great new stuff that is good value, performs very well and has great potential.  You don't like the fact that I am suggesting it might eventually replace your beloved systems?   Most of us manage to disagree without accusing others of being "used car salesmen" or "high and mighty."  We discuss the issues.

Conventional Control, LC, LC+, TMCC, and Legacy are only ever going to be what Lionel allows them to be. While it's probably true that the 2.4ghz has far greater potential than is being used today, Lionel will invest future development where they see the best sales potential balanced with the least cost at their end. I love my LC+ Mikado, but there is still a lot of room for improvement in things like the sound quality, lighting, etc. One thing it sorely needs is an operating (though not necessarily remote) coupler on the pilot, but any and all improvements will only happen if and when Lionel sees profit in those improvements. The addition of the new three unit controller is definitely a good indicator that Lionel is well aware of the potential of their LionChief line.

as far as maintaining backwards compatibility with conventional control, it's a great idea as long as it doesn't push the price out of line. But the new LC+ F-units are already priced high enough that they are really trying to compete with similar style DCS locomotives, which can do more, 

Bill in FtL

"DCS locomotives, which can do more, "

If you spring for $300 or so for DCS.  And not everyone likes DCS in any case.  So you pays your money and makes your choices. 

By the way I agree with everything you said about Lionel's decision making.  I have been referring to potential over the next 5-10 years, not anything remotely likely to happen in 2016.  Lionel will make its calculations, but they have a truly cost effective and highly functional command system in LC and LC+, which is going to be a game changer in the marketplace I'd venture a guess.  Time will tell.

That's the problem, LC/+ is not a command system, it's a R/C system.  Command systems are TMCC/Legacy, DCS, and DCC.  Command systems control more than just a locomotive, they control the track and accessories too.  That's why they are called command systems, you take command of the whole layout with them, one remote for the whole setup.  LC/+ will never be a command system, it's one remote one locomotive.  And the moment Lionel tries to expand past that, they lose the whole simple system they bill it as.  And being the engineer that I am, I've done a cost benefit analysis of TMCC, Legacy, DCS, and LC/+, and picked TMCC/Legacy.  The loose of features from going to LC/+ from TMCC out weighs any gain you get from signal robustness, therefor it is not worth it to me.  I'd rather take poor signal quality and get a boat load of features than Protosound (1) level features with a remote.  And my PS-1 locomotives sound better then LC/+ does too, so even PS-1 conventional running wins over LC/+ in my books.  I have found LC good for only one thing, for my 2 year old to run his own train.  But even he as he nears 3 year old is getting tired of it's limitations and would rather run locomotives with my Cab-1.

I don't think we are trying to tear you or it down, just trying to point out that you are overly glorifying it.

So to answer the OP's question, LC/+ is direct remote to locomotive communications, and it's more robust as far as the signal goes, but you loose the ability to control multiple locomotives (Beyond 3, but who only have 3 locomotives?), switches, and accessories by using it.

Originally Posted by Landsteiner:

"The LC+ boards would go up in smoke with a large locomotive with any load.  They don't have nearly the current rating of the TMCC or Legacy boards.  That doesn't even broach the issue of adapting the tiny flywheel based speed encoder to the large motor."

 

You know this for a fact?  What I do know is that in the model airplane and car field, there are brushless and brushed motor speed controllers available at reasonable cost that can handle many times the amperage typically drawn by a Pittman or other locomotive motor.

Since I've seen the current generation boards go up in smoke with a motor stall, I'd say it's a pretty solid conclusion.  They simply weren't designed for the larger motors.  There's no reason that an electronics package that uses the LC+ control technology couldn't handle a larger motor, but the current one isn't designed to do so. 

 

FYI, we aren't using a model airplane speed controller here, we're using the LC+ electronics package.

 

I'm going to do us both a favor, I'll stop wasting my time responding to your drivel and you can stop trying to prove me wrong.

Given that you answered a specific question about an electronics package that you clearly don't know anything about, I'll also let others be the judge.

Have fun tilting at windmills.

"I'll stop wasting my time responding to your drivel"

May the universe treat you with the kindness and generosity that you show others .

I can assure you that your rudeness, arrogance and lack of social skills will not stop me or others from having opinions about which you disapprove,  when appropriate.  Cheers.

By the way, the original poster already has a command system, so he only needed to know what the capabilities of LionChief and LionChief + were in that setting, and what the compatibilities are. 

Horror of horror, some of us made comments about the bright future of this technology.  This brought down the disapproval and righteous wrath of the self-appointed defenders of the faith . I suppose it isn't surprising that two MTH authorized service techs are the most vocal detractors in regard to a Lionel product.  Yes, let the readers decide who is being unreasonable, biased and irrational.  I'm good with that.

I'm a beginner with this hobby, and so far I like this lionchief system. I have a small size layout that runs two to three trains and that's enough for me. The universal remote coming out is exactly what I need for my setup. The only thing I see Lionel doing is having a buttom on the remote to activate my fastrack switches. Something simple to use, no programming required. That would make the system complete for me. As I said before, I'm using a base 1L controller for my switches now, but it's no big deal using it.

Your quite a piece of work.  You don't like our comments about your mis-information about a product.  Whether it is your over emphasis of LC or your derogatory remarks about DCS.

Hence, we are MTH ASC that are bad mouthing, Lionel Products.  Are you sure it is not our gender, race, or religion?

We did not bad mouth Lionel products, we did not bad mouth LC/LC+.  We disagree with your exaggerated capabilities and false marketing techniques. 

I would be a Lionel Tech too, except no school.  So I can't become official without one.

My Fleet is 99.9% Lionel, told you this before.

I have a PE LC and use it for a temporary holiday display.  Fits nicely in that niche for me.

Sorry we disagree.

So who are you, and how do you claim to know all these supposed facts about cost, sales, marketing, capability, and future plans for LC that you embed in your post.  I did not think Lionel was a public company or produced manufacturing sales numbers.  Are you a Lionel employee or private investor?  G

"Are you sure it is not our gender, race, or religion?"

Completely certain.

"You don't like our comments about your mis-information about a product.  Whether it is your over emphasis of LC or your derogatory remarks about DCS."

I don't like your personally derogatory comments directed at me.  They are against forum rules.  Just because you are agitated doesn't mean you have the authority or right to make abusive comments about others. 

I don't agree with your comments about the relative reliability of command systems.  My speaking of the limitations and quirks of DCS (or TMCC or Legacy) is based upon personal experience, and frankly if you don't like them, that's not my problem.  You do not get to decide what opinions are allowed.  

I have been civil, factually focused  and positive, which is more than I can say for you. 

This thread has been very interesting in a number of ways. There was some good information set forth by all parties that was informative. Of course, there will be disagreements about certain things, which happens all the time when speculations and opinions are made about what might have been or could be. 

It's also an interesting thread as a lesson in social dynamics, and how human interaction can deteriorate from rational discourse into argument and accusations, and how personalities, pre-conceived ideas and defensive posturing can lead to a souring of relationships and conflict. How many times in history has this scenario played out, often at high levels, and sometimes with catastrophic results? The good news here is that none of the posters has an army at his disposal. 

Lionel has had multiple product lines through much of its history. As a kid there was 027 and O. Later on, it went to O27, O and Super O. In the 80's there were Collector Series as well as regular sets. It is the same marketing strategy that worked so well for GM for so many years with Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Buick and Cadillac.

Lion Chief and Lion Chief+ offer another product level between conventional and Legacy products. As such, they fill a niche, providing many of the most desired command control aspects of locomotive operation in a much less expensive product. The fact that Lionel has been able to raise prices and major retailers are offering smaller discounts tells us that the market for these products is very strong.

Legacy and Vision Line products are high end and high priced. I am amazed at what they can do, the scale size, detailing, etc.

Similarly, the full command systems provide layout control as well as operating locomotives.

If one looks at it from the perspective of those like me with limited budgets and smaller layouts, Lion Chief+ offers a lot for the money.

If I had a much larger layout and budget, then I'd be looking at full command control and the scale engines.

Like any technology, capability will grow over time and more features will be offered. Economy cars today come with many features that were only available on much more expensive models a few years ago. So we upgrade! Just like Proto 1 was superseded by Proto 2, then Proto 3 and TMCC has been replaced by Legacy, while DCS has gone through several software upgrades. It is logical to expect that more features will be added to Lion Chief+ engines, just as the command systems and Legacy/MTH Premier locomotives continue to feature new advances. It is technological evolution and marketing.

The issue of range is probably moot for 95% of layouts if you have a properly installed TMCC or DCS system. 

I enjoy my Lion Chief+ NW2 on my layout and I love watching large scale locomotives at train club open houses.

It is reasonable to compare the different systems, if done in a reasonable manner!

I have 2 LC+ locos and 2 Railking locos with PS3. The Railking locos cost about $30 more than the LC+ locos but they have better sound and better features, but they require a DCS system to access those features. LC+ is a good product that fills a void in Lionel's lineup. As far as I know, Lionel doesn't have an equivalent to MTH's Railking line. Should they have gone that route, a less expensive traditionally sized Legacy line rather than LC and LC+? Maybe, I don't know. The LC+ locos run just fine on my DCS layout and I'm glad I bought them. I like them for what they are. I can't run full scale size locos on my small layout so I'm very happy with Railking and LC+. There's no point is arguing which is better. They both meet a need and seem to be selling well. That's my  2 cents, and I guess that's about all it's worth.

I believe it is you who use the derogatory comments and slander without facts.  I think John, hit the nail on the head.  G

"derogatory comments and slander"

Show me one derogatory (and untrue) personal comment that I made about you or John and I'll happily apologize. I don't like to engage in personal abuse and demeaning comments as you and John apparently do, so I would like to be corrected if I cross the line.  I'm guessing you don't even know where the line is, judging from your comments. 

Slander is spoken (not written--that would be libel) falsehood.  I pointed out near the end of this thread that both you and John have  potential conflicts of interest in your comments on Lionel products, given your  status as MTH repair personnel at hobby shops.  That's a fact, not libel or slander. The fact that you two are in agreement about the inferiority of the Lionel product merely acts as evidence of that possible bias. Just because someone disagrees with your learned opinion they are not being derogatory.

You might try to learn how to disagree without being disagreeable. It's a skill worth acquiring.  Based upon your performance here and previously, no sensible person would give credence to anything your write about LionChief or LionChief Plus.

Jeez, enough Landsteiner, just because you're wrong doesn't mean you have to make a fool out yourself as well

"Are you sure it is not our gender, race, or religion?"

WOW!!!!

Larry

"Jeez, enough Landsteiner, just because you're wrong doesn't mean you have to make a fool out yourself as well"

And a third MTH Authorized Service Tech chimes in with his good cheer and collegial helpfulness.  Amazing how these Lionel threads attract certain types.

So what are your qualifications to make the claims that your are making?

"So what are your qualifications to make the claims that your are making?"

I claimed it's a great system with greater signal reliability and might be the wave of the future.  You don't need to be extensively qualified to have that opinion, you just have to have used the equipment and the other available command systems. It helps to have extensive experience with 2.4 GHz spread spectrum digital radio control. 

Merely praising this system and stating it has the potential to ultimately be the dominant system in the industry is apparently enough for some people to get heartburn.  Or that it could be adapted to higher amperage motors with the appropriate electronic speed control module is considered drivel.  Shows how sensitive some of the self-appointed mandarins of the OGR Forum can be, I guess.

Larry, That was tongue in cheek.  When you have a disagreement with some one on a topic like this, you argue/discuss on the merits of what they say.  Not who they are or what they do. 

I am a Train repair tech.  I work on Lionel, Williams, MTH, Brass, Aristocraft, you name it types of trains.  All scales.  I have asked every manufacture to go to their school.  Only MTH has a tech school.  Therefore I have that certification.

The not to be named poster, continues to want to attack the integrity of the person that doesn't agree with their position, because we went to an MTH school?

Geez!  John has built electronics to improve Lionel Products and does lots of ERR upgrades.

We both freely help folks with issues on all manufacture type systems.

We both own Lionel and MTH products, though I own much less MTH.

But because we can factually argue short falls in LC as an over all future of the industry we have become bashers because we are MTH techs?

Every product has advantages and disadvantages on how it works and operates. G

"That was tongue in cheek."

I always make an effort to use my brain.  

"But because we can factually argue short falls in LC as an over all future of the industry we have become bashers because we are MTH techs?"

No, because you insisted on making derogatory remarks ("high and mighty") and asking why I was entitled to have the opinions I do.  Don't act all hurt and wounded,  and pretend you are innocent of being the one initiating  personally insulting behavior.  Take responsibility when you do something stupid or wrong.

Technology is changing so fast today that what was the greatest today will be obsolete tomorrow.  Trains last a long time and most of us have large investments in current technology.  Therefore, today's technology will be around for long time to come.  

TMCC has been replaced by Legacy.  Fortunately, Legacy will run TMCC engines.  I would be out of luck if it didn't.  

I think that we are going to see more direct communication with engines in the future.  An upgraded Lion Chief system or Bachmann Bluetooth will most likely be the new standard.  Communication using the rails will probably go away eventually.  This will end both Legacy and DCS as we now know it.  People in the garden railroad hobby are already using reliable wireless technology to control battery powered trains.  I saw battery powered engines in the smaller scales at this year's National Train show.  A Bachmann representative was controlling an HO locomotive from the other side of the display hall - a distance of about 200 to 300 feet.

I read an article in the paper where AirBus is designing wireless airplanes to eliminate the wiring and the associated weight in the plane.  The world is going wireless.  Lion Chief and Bluetooth are just the first steps in the 3-rail hobby segment.

NH Joe

I'll repost this as it seems to have been missed.

I'm no MTH tech, but I am a mechanical engineer and an amateur radio operator.  I've done research and worked with several wireless communication systems.  Yes, the 2.4GHz frequency equipment is a great and robust system, but at the end of the day it's not LC/+ tech.  It's merely a communications standard that could be applied to Legacy, and LC/+ could of used any other communication standard.  I'm sure Lionel picked 2.4GHz for LC/+ because it's as robust as it is.  But, IMHO, even MTH's PS-1 system has better features than LC/+ does.

"But, IMHO, even MTH's PS-1 system has better features than LC/+ does."

Such as the tendency of some PS1 chips to scramble, its incompatibility with some solid state power supplies that employ pulse modulation, the lack of a remote capability, the lack of independent command control, and that wonderful internal battery that is required for operation and can routinely foul up performance completely?  To me,  PS1 is the most dysfunctional and inadequate control and sound system of the modern era.  Controlling the special features of PS1 using a transformer is an annoyingly complex and unreliable experience based upon my own ownership of several PS1 locos. They are beautiful to look at however .

Whats so hard to understand about Lionchief? Its an entry level remote designed towards younger/newcomers to the hobby so that "starter set like" trains can now have sound and remote control as opposed to just a transformer.

 In addition,"junior" can now run his/her trains on dads big layout while dad runs his trains at the same time.

With all due respect to the "grownups " that find Lionchief trains attractive, the "Fisher-Price look" of the remote speaks volumes as to the primary intended market.

"With all due respect to the "grownups " that find Lionchief trains attractive, the "Fisher-Price look" of the remote speaks volumes as to the primary intended market."

No argument that is true of LionChief.  Your point is well taken.  LionChief Plus controllers, however,  are less Fisher Price and the price (pun intended) for LionChief Plus is in the $300-450 range and thus definitely not Fisher Price.  As opposed to sets with LionChief at $150 and up or so.

A key point some of us are making is that the communication technology (and firmware) underlying LionChief and LionChief Plus could, in the future, easily be adapted to more sophisticated models, including switch and accessory control, onboard battery powered locos, and other cutting edge applications.  At lower cost than TMCC and Legacy perhaps.   Hopefully that's pretty easy to understand, although it seems controversial for some reason.

I also wondered about the LC/+ remote look - why it looks so toylike when it did not have to.   So a deliberate choice to go with this look, probably based on the audience being marketed to.  

I think LC/+ turned out to be a bigger market than Lionel had perhaps anticipated (or they might have gone for a less Fisher-Price look for the remotes).   The after-the-fact multi-loco remote looks cheapo (but I have one on order).   And why only three locos on the multi-remote? Four or five would have accommodated most users. 

Anyway, its a great system for me, six LC+ locos and waiting for new releases.

Paul, I think you're running up against the intended target audience of the LC/LC+ system.  There is no "startup" or "shutdown", obviously by design.  They're a plop them on the tracks and run until you power off kind of product.

AFAIK, there is no way to avoid the beeping if the remote is not connected and the locomotive is powered up.

What I'm curious about is the multi-remote, will it keep the three currently loaded locomotives from beeping if they're on the tracks and powered?

To avoid the beeping I turn on the remote before powering up the track or putting the loco on the track. 

I'm guessing that the LC remote was designed with children in mind since it comes with starter sets and a lot of these sets (though not all) go to children. When Lionel introduced LC+ they kept the same design for the remote even though it's aimed at a different market.

I don't think that a $150 LC starter set is aimed at the same market as a $375 LC+ steam loco. LC came first and LC+ is a substantial upgrade IMHO.

Well, the LC+ remote sure looks just like the LC remote, and reacts the same way to track power on and the remote off...   It sure looks like both are targeted to the novice user.

I think that's probably true. Most parents aren't spending $700 or so (LC+ engine, cars, T&T) to get a train for an 8-year-old. The LC+ engines are fairly costly, and are sophisticated enough to satisfy many adult operators. Remote control, sounds, great cruise control, smooth runners and powerful pullers, good smoke units, new developments being made available like add-on powered B units, with smoke, for the upcoming F units, etc.

I know there are a LOT of adult operators (myself included) who run them and really enjoy them, and this is especially true for the majority of operators - being those with modest-sized layouts - who welcome a selection of more traditional-sized command-controlled engines. This is particularly the case now that Postwar Celebration and LionMaster engines have mostly faded from the scene.

If I had to guess, it would be that the vast majority of LC+ engines have been purchased by adult operators. 

I think LC+ is targeted to 2 primary groups. First is the beginner who bought an LC set and wants to take up the hobby with more advanced trains. LC+ is familiar and traditionally sized so it's the logical next step up from a train set.

But I think it's also targeted to the long time railroader who runs traditional size trains conventionally. LC+ fits right in with post war Lionel right up to conventional trains made today. The conventional operator doesn't have to bother with the remote if he doesn't want to and still gets the advanced control and smoke of LC+ for a reasonable price.

I have a small layout and can't run Legacy or MTH Premier locos. LC+ and Railking are perfect for me. I enjoy seeing big layouts with scale trains but I can't run them and I bet there are many O gaugers like me, and I think that we, along with the beginners with an LC set, are the targeted market.

Hi John - I never get the beeping sound. "Procedures for No  Beeping"

1. - Turn on the Blue Remote

2. - Power up the track.

3. - Run the locomotive on a Main Line

4. - Drive the locomotive onto a siding and throw a toggle switch to turn the track power off to the siding and then turn off the Blue Remote. This will also work on the Main Line.

Never getting the Beeping Sound......

John - If you follow the above procedures with your Camelback, does this give you 
"No Beeping Operations"?

I have the same questions about the new Orange Universal Remote.

Gary • Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Bingo! Perfectly stated. Probably because that's exactly how I fell into LC+. PW style layout with all conventional control and no interest in Legacy, et.al. LC+ fits the bill to run with the remote or conventionally with some pretty nicely featured locos.

And agree with the others. Plain vanilla LC and LC+ are definitely different audiences.

This has been a "long and winding" thread   but I think in the end it proves once again that there are different market segments for everyone, price-range, and otherwise.

Obviously, if the track power is off anytime the remote is off, the Camelback doesn't make any sounds.  

Let's recall the original comment about the beeping.

I currently own three (3) LC/+ locomotives...Pacific, Hudson and NW-2. What I find most annoying, is when the transformer is powered up, all of the units start there normal beeping sounds...looking for connection to their respective remote. If they are all on the track at the same time, then all of the remotes have to be turned on in order to quiet things down. Have you found, other than removing the units from the layout, a way to work around this issue?

Do you have a similar formula for solving his problem?

Hi John - Yes - On my layout I turn on the Blue Remotes, on first, than track power on. It comes on at 100% power, from 4 Lionel Bricks, one brick for each main line. = No Beeping. 

Let me know if this works.

Gary

• Cheers from The Detroit and Lionel Railway

My limited 5x10 ft layout, 85 ft of Fastrack, two LC+ and one LC locomotives.  Given the layout configuration, can only run two at a time for the most part.  Three spurs to park the locomotives, each with an inexpensive toggle switch for power for each.  Solves the beeping problem, all for less than $15 for toggle switches from Ace hardware, three of those little straight pieces with a wire jumper, and little bit of extra wiring.  Still lots of fun, no name calling/motives questioning.   Thought this was supposed to be fun!

I would venture to guess that Lionel intent was to no longer make conventional starter sets. That would make sense with kids wanting RC car and things that are more high tech. LC+ was a result of market demand from the long time hobbyist who ran conventional with the added bonus of RC operation.. In the long term LC+ winds up be the next level for those who bought the LC sets. Eventually the demand will force Lionel to add more features and are coming out with a LC remote that can operate several engines. Look at the use of Apps, WiFi and Bluetooth for use with Legacy and DCS. LC and LC+ are basically entry level Command and Control for a new generation kids intro to O Gauge trains.