The LC stuff is made to run with its respective controller.

Unfortunately, you will be in for a surprise because I'm pretty sure LionChief and LionChief+ are NOT DCS/TMCC compatible.

You were sold a load of bull puckey along with your new locomotive, I'm afraid.

They only work with their own controllers. Hopefully you can enjoy the locomotive with its own controller and don't get too bent out of shape that it's not compatible.

OK, I understand. Each engine LC or LC+ has it's one controller. But what is difference between LC and LC+?

All LionChief, with or without the "+" is dedicated to its particular controller (or one channel of a multi-controller).

LionChief+ adds a switch and reverse unit so that the loco can also run under conventional.

"Working with a DCS/TMCC setup" means the LC/LC+ unit will use the constant track power of the other two systems, while observing the commands sent by its dedicated controller.

---PCJ

The main difference between LC and LC+ is LC+ has a switch under the locomotive to allow for it to be operated conventionally with a transformer.

LC and LC+ locomotives will operate with their respective controllers with TMCC or DCS voltages applied to the rails.

Rusty

LC+ can be used conventionally without the LC+ remote, you vary the track voltage with a transformer handle.  LC+ usually has couplers that you can open from the remote.  LC+ generally has better sound quality. 

Matt,

I've run my LC+, with it's separate remote on my DCS layout. Not as nice as my MTH engines but I like it.

So, no coupler control or conventional control with LC.

Correct.

Thanks everyone. I like my new LC+ engine. Runs good and sounds ok, I still not sure about the sounds. I'm a MTH fan and have several but for the money the LC+ engines are pretty good.

we have both - LC is great for beginners and kids. when we got the LC+, I was amazed at the constant speed control (especially at very low speeds), even on gradients, up or down. the sounds are similar, but you can control the volume through the remote. so impressed that we now have 3 LC+. enjoy your trains and Happy Thanksgiving!

I have both and the difference is QUALITY. I have an LC RS3 and i think Lionel would have built the can motor out of plastic if possible. LC+ is heavier, better built (more metal parts), and has more features with more robust control options. 

The LC+ is major step above the LC and I would never look back given the option now.

I have one LC+, the Camelback.  I bought it so I could experience the system, and it was one of the few scale sized LC+ products.  I've seen enough of the LC (no plus) in Henning's store to know that I'd probably not like them nearly as well.

Lion Chief vs Lion Chef+

, what's the diff?

One is a train, the other is a cook

oops, sorry.

Some of these have been mentioned, others not, or not correctly:  

LionChief (no plus) will run on any layout with a constant voltage, such as TMCC,Legacy, and DCS layouts, however they can only be controlled from their own remote control.  

LionChief Plus, will also run on any layout with constant power, but also have a switch that will let them run as a conventional locomotive with transformed controlled speed and direction, bell and whistle.  You can not fire the electro-couplers however, when using conventional control, or activate the announcement sounds.  

LionChief engines have basic forward/reverse control from the remote as well as Whistle, Bell, and announcement sounds, but the over all sound quality is the lowest of any current Lionel products.  In truth the sounds are ok, but nothing special.  

With LionChief Plus, you gain a somewhat better sound system, that can play several sounds at the same time.  You can also adjust the volume of the sound system, and you gain the electro-couplers, which can be opened by 'double-clicking' the whistle or bell buttons on the remote.  

The other major features a Plus engine has are a fan-driven smoke unit which will produce a much larger volume of smoke as well as a better looking effect than the puffer units on non-plus engines, and the speed control.  LC+ engines will hold at whatever speed they are set to, where as regular LC engines will speed up and slow down as they encounter grades, differing track voltage, curves, and different loads.  

There are a number of internal differences in how the electronics function, but I don't think there is a need to get that in depth just yet.  

JGL

Thanks JGL,

One small correction:

"but also have a switch that will let them run as a conventional locomotive with transformed controlled speed and direction, bell and whistle.  You can not fire the electro-couplers however, when using conventional control, or activate the announcement sounds.   "

** you can trigger the announcement sounds with a short whistle in conventional mode.

One nice thing I have discovered while operating a Lionchief plus loco is that since the track has constant voltage, there is no need for fixed voltage plugs on O22 switches..... 

Dan Padova posted:

One nice thing...

Just don't park your train on 1122/5122/5121 type switches.

This is what happens when a company is more concerned about making money for it's investors instead of the hobbyist.   How many product lines do you need?  And why can't they all be controlled by the same system?  I mean how hard can it be if MTH can do it???

Sorry, been to too many train shows and have seen too many newbies totally confused by the differences (and too many vendors providing incorrect information).  

Heck, even now they have Legacy locos with different electronics than the consumer is led to believe.   It's really a joke.

- Greg

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have one LC+, the Camelback.  I bought it so I could experience the system, and it was one of the few scale sized LC+ products.  I've seen enough of the LC (no plus) in Henning's store to know that I'd probably not like them nearly as well.

I have the same engine and love it. I would buy more LC+ if the line were expanded to include more scale-proportioned items, kind of like what MTH does with some of their Railking diesels. I also agree with John's assessment of regular LC; though they are definitely great for kids.

Lionel's "universal" remote is a step in the right direction to better the user experience, but I am somewhat disappointed it only controls 3 locomotives.

SantaFeFan, You're right, I forgot you could trigger the announcements in conventional as well.  

Greg Houser posted:

This is what happens when a company is more concerned about making money for it's investors instead of the hobbyist.   How many product lines do you need?  And why can't they all be controlled by the same system?  I mean how hard can it be if MTH can do it???

Sorry, been to too many train shows and have seen too many newbies totally confused by the differences (and too many vendors providing incorrect information).  

Heck, even now they have Legacy locos with different electronics than the consumer is led to believe.   It's really a joke.

- Greg

Greg, the problem with this is, the entire electronics package in the LionChief and LionChief Plus  locomotives can be produced for a fraction of the cost of that in TMCC/Legacy/DCS engines.  It is also a superior form of data transmission to any of those systems.  The problem is that when Legacy was in development and released, the cost of these 2.4GHz digital transceivers was still rather high.  Legacy uses them for the link between the remote and base, however continued to use the 455KHz track signal to relay commands to the engines.  This also allowed Legacy to control original TMCC equipment without any additional components.  

At any time they wanted to Lionel could produce a box that connects to the Legacy or TMCC system that would allow those systems to control LC/+ engines.  You can find my thread that shows how this can be done HERE.   

In addition, the radio system in use in LC/+ is just as capable as any other system on the market, the end product is intentionally dumbed down for ease of use, and to prevent these low cost options from competing with higher priced models.  

While I agree that Lionel could do better in marketing and explaining the differences in product lines, there shouldn't be much confusion for most folks between what a starter set is, and what a Legacy Engine is.  Things do get a bit murky when LionChief Plus is added, but I suspect that has more to do with the thought that LC+ was more of a response from lionel for those of us that really liked the idea of LionChief, but wanted a couple more features, placing these engines in the role traditionally held by lower-end stand alone engines, perhaps something equivalent to the TMCC era engines that were sold "command ready".  

I do think that there should perhaps be better communication between Lionel and their distribution network of hobby shops as to what each system provides, unfortunately in my experience the 'serious hobbists' and many staff at various hobby shops write all LionChief products off as children's toys at best, and a fad-gimick at worst, discounting the appeal these products may have with budget minded folks that otherwise would only look to used products to fill their roster.  

In the end my breakdown is as follows:

LionChief is best suited as a first train set, or a set for youngsters to opperate on a parent or grand parent's layout, however even these lower end products are generally superior to the conventional engines they replaced, with better sounds and easier controls.  

LionChief Plus is well suited to folks that are on a budget and can not afford the costs of Legacy engines and supporting hardware.  They are also great for those that started with a regular LionChief set and are expanding their layout.  These provide some of the key features of traditional command systems without the need to invest in such a system; 'cruise control', electro-couplers, and decent sound systems.  

Legacy is best suited for those that have the time and money for an extensive and fully interconnected layout.  These operators  can be scale driven or more into classic toy-like layouts, but either way Legacy provides fantastic functionality on mid-sized and larger layouts with multiple engines, accessories and functions to control.  Legacy engines also provide high quality sound systems and are generally packed with features.  These are for the serious model train hobbyist.  

As for what information people provide to others, I would be concerned if an authorized Lionel dealer provided factually incorrect information, but when dealing with random people at a train show, everyone is talking out their you know what, and has been long before the first TMCC engine rolled off the line... and everyone knows it.  Unlike any time in the past, however, a large majority of folks now walk around with the entire amassed knowledge of mankind in their pocket, and I can't feel sorry for them if they do not do some basic fact checking before making a purchase.  

I would also guess that many users of this forum forget that while they may be spending $2k on an engine, for every one of them Lionel sells dozens of these lower end products.  I wouldn't ask Ford to stop making Focuses and F150's so they can stop messing around and focus on the true hobbyists, and improve the GT40 and Shelby 350.   The low end products pay the bills and allow not only for new people to get involved with the hobby in general, but they keep the lights on for those boutique Vision Line engines to be built.  

JGL

"I mean how hard can it be if MTH can do it???"

I would respectfully suggest you are thinking from the perspective of the experienced, committed hobbyist.  MTH does not really address the budget starter set market.  At all. Their least expensive sets are always well north of $200 and usually $300.  That is the price of having high end electronics and "scale-like" quality in your set.  Most PS3 locos are likewise much more expensive to operate in command mode because you have to shell out $300 for DCS to get excellent remote independent operation.  LionChief allows sets that sometimes can be found for under $100 and certainly under $150, including a superior track system.  LionChief+ allows consumers on a budget, as mentioned above, to operate in command, remote mode without shelling out $300 for Legacy. Both of these equipment allow running on a fully command layout, and even on a conventional layout, something that isn't true of Legacy (if your layout is DCS) or PS3 (if your layout is Legacy).  So these technologies are economical, easily operated, and allow flexibility not actually available through higher end products from Lionel and MTH.

So the short answer is that yes, MTH can do it, but you need to invest north of $600 to see any of the benefits.  That's a non-starter for the vast majority of consumers.  Lionel has answers for those with different budgets and goals (train around the tree) that MTH simply does not provide. Caveat emptor or chacun a son gout (apologies to francophones for the absence of accent grave and circumflex--cannot be bothered).

LC+ runs very well off your transformer in conventional mode.