So, in the new catalog there is a Lionchief Plus New Haven FA A-A Bluetooth set in the McGinnis color scheme.  Wow! I might buy one of those.

"Lionchief Plus New Haven FA A-A Bluetooth set in the McGinnis color scheme.  Wow! I might buy one of those."

Ditto.  One of the more beautiful postwar color schemes, IMO.  Rode the New Haven quite a bit in the 1960s.

The list of locos that will work with this app is very short (far shorter than the list for the Universal LionChief Controller), only the HO Polar Express, the most recent Am. Flyer Northerns, and just a couple of other new Lionel O Gauge pieces. Too bad they didn't include a list of compatible locos like the one they sent to the dealers, it would have saved me a lot of time!

Bill in FtL

Bill Nielsen posted:

The list of locos that will work with this app is very short (far shorter than the list for the Universal LionChief Controller), only the HO Polar Express, the most recent Am. Flyer Northerns, and just a couple of other new Lionel O Gauge pieces. Too bad they didn't include a list of compatible locos like the one they sent to the dealers, it would have saved me a lot of time!

Bill in FtL

 

Agreed, I even emailed them today to see what the deal was since I didn't see this thread and I didn't notice that some of the locos had the icon next to them and others did not.

So, would you buy a LC+ engine at retail co$t without the Bluetooth - when you know some of them have it and it'd be great to run them with your device?  

They should have made all the LC+ engines bluetooth and all the non-plus ones not, but I guess that would have been painful for them to go back to the drawing board for engines like the A5/etc.

Murnane posted:

 

They should have made all the LC+ engines bluetooth and all the non-plus ones not, but I guess that would have been painful for them to go back to the drawing board for engines like the A5/etc.

Hindsight is always 20/20.  Bluetooth is great tech, but I don't think one could have foreseen the popularity of LionChief or the market for LC+ that formed, nor the desire to use mobile devices to operate locomotives when things started rolling.  Also add into that that the bluetooth modules that allow this to be possible have only relatively recently come to market at reasonable prices.  

The documentation on the module in the universal remote shows it to have only been released in April of 2016.  A quick bit of google-fu shows LC+ to have been released in 2014.  In that year BLE modules were only just starting to hit the market and many of the ones offered still required an independent processor to control them.  Searching for 2014 prices is a bit tricky, but it looks like these early BLE modules, that still required an additional processor, retailed in low quantity for about $10.  A large order might have gotten them for quite a bit less, but in the same time frame the standard 2.4GHz radios that LC/+ did use cost less than 10% of that. Current modules with 'powerful' built in processors cost $2-$3 in low quantity,  likely a buck or less in large quantity.  To sum it up when LC+ was released it would have significantly added to cost of production for features no one needed or wanted at the time.  Today, however, using this tech can actually lower the cost of production while providing more features.  

I would guess the decision to go with bluetooth for future products was only made in time to use it in products released for 2017 and beyond.  I can't see it being worth anyone's time to redesign models that are already on the shelf.  I'm just happy that the tech is keeping up with the times in LC, rather than remaining oblivious to improvements in technology like other systems have.  

There are some shortcomings to using BLE tech over other communication systems, but I don't think they will affect most users, or even a statistically significant number of users.  

JGL

Can you point out some of the shortcomings of BLE that you referred to in your post?

Thanks.

BOB WALKER posted:

Can you point out some of the shortcomings of BLE that you referred to in your post?

Thanks.

The biggest one is going to be radio range. While the tech of BLE is very good the class 2 Bluetooth radios found in almost all mobile devices are only required to provide for 10 meters range (about 33 feet).  Now the radios most use greatly exceed this spec, but I wouldn't expect a reliable, open air, signal to make it much more than 30 meters, and less through obstacles.  Now as noted earlier I don't think this will be a factor at all for 99.99% of users, but it will be for some people with large layouts or for large club layouts.  

Another factor is that Bluetooth is a proprietary protocol, Simply using the name "Bluetooth" or the logo on a product costs several thousand dollars.   https://www.bluetooth.com/deve...ication-listing-fees  This one actually effects all users, as it raises the price of every single LionChief/LC+/FlyerChief engine made from 2017 on.  It also hinders folks from making independent products that can use this tech.  

Aside from the fees, the protocol is quite a bit more complex to work with for a hobbyist wanting to develop their own control systems than the simple serial communication offered by TMCC or Legacy.  If you want to plug a computer in to control your entire layout it becomes much harder here.  Again only affects a tiny portion of users, but it is a downside.  

One last one that comes to mind is that Big L has now shoehorned themselves into a commitment to support bluetooth from now on, which will limit their ability to upgrade to something better when it comes along... and anyone that's been keeping up with digital radios over the last 10 years knows there will be some new, better, protocol or frequency range on the market before we know it.  BLE is really good right now, but it isn't likely to remain top dog forever.  

JGL

I'm wondering if LC+ engines offered in the 2016 catalog and carried over in the 2017 catalog will be modified to have the bluetooth capability. There's one of those that I'm interested in getting.

breezinup posted:

I'm wondering if LC+ engines offered in the 2016 catalog and carried over in the 2017 catalog will be modified to have the bluetooth capability. There's one of those that I'm interested in getting.

I wonder the same. I really hope so. 

It doesn't look so, as those engines do not have the Bluetooth logo in the catalog.

Stuff made prior to the 2017 catalog appears to be older stock without Bluetooth.  They do come with a remote, so unless you absolutely must operate it only with your phone or tablet (these must be iOS at present) they are identical in capabilities to the newer models, I believe.

Landsteiner posted:

Stuff made prior to the 2017 catalog appears to be older stock without Bluetooth.  They do come with a remote, so unless you absolutely must operate it only with your phone or tablet (these must be iOS at present) they are identical in capabilities to the newer models, I believe.

So you mean you think they are actually identical in capabilities to the older models, don't you? That is, although shown in the 2017 catalog, they will not have bluetooth capabilities.

I mean that in terms of functionality (digital command control by remote, controlling speed, direction, sounds [and couplers for LC+]) they are identical locos.  The Bluetooth capability may allow updating of firmware and new functions not as readily possible with the Older LC+ or LC only equipped.  Operationally they appear the same.

breezinup posted:

I'm wondering if LC+ engines offered in the 2016 catalog and carried over in the 2017 catalog will be modified to have the bluetooth capability. There's one of those that I'm interested in getting.

Flipping through the catalog, and using a little common sense as well, it appears that most things designed for 2016 and before will not have the bluetooth capability.  I do think it likely that old stock will be sold off until it is gone, and only then would a new product be cataloged that offers the BLE support. You can see that in what are likely three of the biggest selling starter sets.  The Polar Express, Hogwarts, and Thomas sets now all offer bluetooth... Suppose I'll be buying a third polar express set to see what's different in the new future.   As for deciding to buy or not, if there as a model with a road name you like, as others have said, LC+ is pretty good even without Bluetooth.  If all else fails you may be able to buy a future release that has Bluetooth and swap shells, but I would hope that in the not so distant future Lionel releases an update to the universal remote to allow it to be used as a bridge between mobile devices and older lc/+ engines.  

JGL

i cant download the new app i go to apple store and type lionchief and a lion king app pops up.  HELP

Type in Lionel.  That worked for me.

i tried that to no luck did get other lionel on it but not lionchief thanks for the reply

Doug-Sr posted:

i tried that to no luck did get other lionel on it but not lionchief thanks for the reply

Is this for iPad or iPhone?  If on an iPad make sure you select the choice of iPhone Only.  I just did it and it did work.

ok thanks will try but cant even find the app to download

Go to the APP store and type Lionel into the search window.  Make sure as shown below iPhone only is selected.

When I did this was the result.

If you select iPad only, you will not find it. iPad only is the default search on an iPad. As said, you must select iPhone only, then search.

thanks all and to marty  and george the iphone only did the trick

Works great on the fransico flyer 4-8-4 my other lion chief plus or flyer chief dont say bluetooth i asume they wont work

Doug-Sr posted:

Works great on the fransico flyer 4-8-4 my other lion chief plus or flyer chief dont say bluetooth i asume they wont work

That's right, but very cool that you have one of the few engines released so far that can use it. 

I ordered a FlyerChief Northern a year ago out of the 2016 catalog. It was delivered yesterday. It has the Bluetooth feature. This same engine is also listed in the new 2017 catalog. Hopefully the same is true for the LionChief Plus 2016 catalogued engines.

JOHNGALTLINE posted:

Suppose I'll be buying a third polar express set to see what's different in the new future.  

I won't be buying a third Polar Express set. Instead I'll be getting a  LionChief Plus Berkshire and moving the shell from the 10th anniversary addition off the original Polar Express lionChief engine over to the new LionChief plus Berkshire. Burnt out two motors on the 10th anniversary addition rather fast so I moved the sound module and shell over to the original LionChief  Polar express Loco. That motor has been pulling 10 or more coaches around the Christmas display for three or four years now. I doubt the sound module will be compatible with new Bluetooth plus edition. so I'll power it up static some how and figure a way to run the sound clips through a larger speaker.

The one thing I'm leery of is the features announced on the new LionChief Plus Bluetooth Birkshire Locos. The description states Engineer and Fireman figures not included and merely insinuates all other LionChief plus features are included. However Lionel has a tendency to screw up on these type of descriptions in their catalogs. Without someone of authority physically checking a working model for the flickering firebox feature and confirming the feature is included in the production line I'll give it 10 to 1 against appearing in the final product. I'm a little more optimistic about the fan driven smoke unit.

I have 3 of the new S gauge northerns and I downloaded the app a few days ago.  Awesome! The FlyerChief (lionchief for most you guys) remote can go back in the box.  I will try and maybe do a short video on Monday showing the LC app in action.  Normally I use my phone to take video, but now its controlling the train so I will have to incoperate an iPad into the mix.  

I think you guys will be happy with the App though! 

Ben

what advantages are there to using the blue tooth app over the remotes?  thanks

Ben, 3 Northerns? That is awesome! Best get a multi track layout assembled soon. I like the appearance of the NYC Northern on the layout since it has Gilbert-like whitewalls on the drive wheels.

WB47, I will give you my view, but I only have one Northern. The FlyerChief control does not have speed detents so low speed fidelity is poor. The App is much better for low speed control of the S gauge engines. There are no multi key presses needed, every control action appears as an icon on one of the screens in the App. The iPhone App finds all the FlyerChief engines on powered track.

I have a lot of Legacy engines and the Lionel LCS controls the layout. With the iPhone connected to the LCS wireless network I can toggle between the two Apps and control Legacy and FlyerChief engines with one handheld device.

Mark gets my vote for best post in this thread!

thanks for some insight Tom.  Appreciated.

the app is good if you want to start over buy new engines but for most who now have a lot of lionchief plus or flyerchief the universal remote does it best

"Will it be available for Android devices too?"

Yes, according to Ryan Kunkle in the latest Notch 6 podcast.  Apparently they had hoped to have the Android app available simultaneously with the iOS app, but development is taking a bit longer than expected. Just FYI.

Lots of options now:  remote that comes with the loco, universal remote, conventional and phone/tablet Bluetooth app.  Even a scale loco with LC+ in the catalogue (SD60 if I recall correctly).

Kunkle also affirmed that the future of Legacy is not in question.  The LC+ SD60M is $150 less MSRP than the Legacy version so this means choice as to how many features you want (including premium sound) versus affordability.  Seems a win for everyone. 

All that remains is for someone to develop a Legacy to LC bridge, such as that done by John Galt Lines.

LC, LC+, now BT and non-BT. The continued splintering and factions of product levels is frustrating for the current user and confusing for the newbie.

I'm surprised that Lionel couldn't have had the foresight to build BT into the LC+ line from the beginning. That wasn't all that long ago. 

They currently seem to operate in a bit of a "just for today" sort of mode with a lack of regard for the eco system that already exists and where it's going in the future.

wb47 posted:

what advantages are there to using the blue tooth app over the remotes?  thanks

Good question. The additional features offered by the Lionchief app as compared to the remote are:

• momentum settings
• dedicated coupler buttons (for locos with operating couplers)
• individual sound volume for whistle, bell, speech and background sounds
• custom pitch settings for bell and whistle
• speed limit setting
• smoke on/off

Rudy, I have been using the App with my new NYC Northern. The App is very well thought out and the extra features useful.

Railsounds posted:

wb47 posted:

what advantages are there to using the blue tooth app over the remotes?  thanks

Good question. The additional features offered by the Lionchief app as compared to the remote are:

• momentum settings
• dedicated coupler buttons (for locos with operating couplers)
• individual sound volume for whistle, bell, speech and background sounds
• custom pitch settings for bell and whistle
• speed limit setting
• smoke on/off

WOW!!!

Cheers!

Keith

graz posted:

LC, LC+, now BT and non-BT. The continued splintering and factions of product levels is frustrating for the current user and confusing for the newbie.

I'm surprised that Lionel couldn't have had the foresight to build BT into the LC+ line from the beginning. That wasn't all that long ago. 

They currently seem to operate in a bit of a "just for today" sort of mode with a lack of regard for the eco system that already exists and where it's going in the future.

 

I think I covered this one pretty well earlier in the thread, but the bottom line is that reasonably low cost BLE modules only just started to come to market in 2014 (the year LC+ was introduced), and it wasn't until about a year ago that the super-low cost type with built-in microprocessors capable of replacing most of the electronics in a LionChief engine came around.  If I had to guess I would say that some time about a year or so ago, some engineer at Big L realized that it costs less now to use a single BLE module in LionChief than to use a radio module and separate microprocessor, and they could add more functionality while they were at it.  

As for the 'just for today' mode, nothing has changed by adding bluetooth, if you liked LC/LC+ just the way they were.  The bluetooth models still work exactly the same with the remote.  I find it quite refreshing to see a product line that keeps up with current developments in technology, rather than clinging to technology that was obsolete (but inexpensive and reasonably reliable for the time) before the first Cab1 or TIU ever came to market.  

One plus side of switching to BlueTooth, is actually backwards compatibility for the foreseeable future.  By using the world-wide industry standard for wireless communication, Lionel has insured that radios capable of using this system will be on the market for countless decades.  Thus whatever system they may switch to in the future, adding a bluetooth radio module for a couple extra pennies will always be an option, keeping these engines working under any new control technology that comes along.  

JGL

I was wandering if they could build a screen containing this BT App into a transformer, for example a ZW.

That way you could operate all of the newer technologies we have now, and into the future.

This screen would be mounded into the top of the ZW, you would have both new technology and conventional controls.

Elimination of all remote control devices by having a ZW serve as the remote controller(s). 

Just a thought I had to handle the growing world of remotes.

Thanks, Phil

PHILA posted:

I was wandering if they could build a screen containing this BT App into a transformer, for example a ZW.

That way you could operate all of the newer technologies we have now, and into the future.

This screen would be mounded into the top of the ZW, you would have both new technology and conventional controls.

Elimination of all remote control devices by having a ZW serve as the remote controller(s). 

Just a thought I had to handle the growing world of remotes.

Thanks, Phil

Sort of like this?