To my very limited knowledge there is no way to add all of the Lionel Lionchief capabilities to a non-Lionel loco. I'm looking for a way to easily remotely control a loco which only has conventional control. For me, that's Lionchief Plus. I know there's a DCC way or maybe even a Legacy way but I have no interest in that.
So, as far as I know, if I want Lionchief, I must purchase Lionel. Is my understanding correct?
Dan
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You could buy all the boards and parts, but that would be very expensive and a lot of labor. Obviously, the more painless way is to use the ERR upgrades to do a TMCC model.
One fly in the ointment is that LC+ uses a flywheel encoder similar to Legacy locomotives, so you'd have to properly mount the encoder and flywheel to get that working. That might be a bridge too far for this project.
For the conversion of any brand conventional power locomotive to wireless control, there is a substantial number of available systems. I have tried most of them and they all work well.
I purchased 2 of the same LionChief DIESEL from Thomas and friends and used the boards in a 2 RMT Beeps. I can consist them and control them with one remote.
See this OGR thread.
Plain Lionchief (not plus) is easy to stick into another engine, it doesn't have any fancy speed control, couplers, or the like.
You didn't say what kind of loco this is, or how many "conventional" locos you eventually want to convert. I like Ron045's suggestion. However, if you're not satisfied with the entry-level performance of basic LionChief, another good option might be Ring Engineering's RailPro. Your investment would be around $330. I'm also not sure if the RailPro sound decoder is compatible "out of the box" with track power, or if you would have to add additional circuitry to rectify, smooth, and stabilize the AC voltage used on most existing 3-rail layouts.
EDIT: I found a couple of posts on the Forum from 2020 that strongly suggest that a RailPro decoder would be just fine with AC track power. The "decoders" (in-loco receivers) are ~$165 each, and are sound-equipped! If you're planning to convert more than one loco, you would only need to buy one hand-held controller, which also costs about $165. It's easy to switch between two locos "on the fly," and I'm pretty sure RailPro's motor control is a lot better than starter-set grade LionChief (i.e., at least comparable to LionChief Plus.) My $.02.
@Ted S posted:EDIT: I found a couple of posts on the Forum from 2020 that strongly suggest that a RailPro decoder would be just fine with AC track power. The "decoders" (in-loco receivers) are ~$165 each, and are sound-equipped! If you're planning to convert more than one loco, you would only need to buy one hand-held controller, which also costs about $165. It's easy to switch between two locos "on the fly," and I'm pretty sure RailPro's motor control is a lot better than starter-set grade LionChief (i.e., at least comparable to LionChief Plus.) My $.02.
Where are you finding RailPro controllers for $165? They list at $299, and the cheapest you can usually find them at retail is around $235.
I'd love to see an article about converting a Williams loco to LionChief in OGR or that other rag 
.
@Magicland posted:Where are you finding RailPro controllers for $165? They list at $299, and the cheapest you can usually find them at retail is around $235.
Magicland you're right. I was thinking of the Airwire T6000 by CVP Products, and even that has gone up in price since the last time I looked! An AirWire T6000 hand-held controller and G4 decoder combo would cost about $350. However the G4 definitely needs a helper circuit ahead of it (or a battery on board, which is how the G-scalers do it.) It definitely won't work on an AC-powered layout "out of the box." Bottom line, both Airwire and RailPro are a big step up in price compared to buying LionChief parts from Lionel.
The question is, if Lionel gets wind of this thread, how long will they continue to offer them for separate sale? 
@Ted S:
Whoa! Wait a minute. Are you saying that one can purchase the Lionchief "guts" ( the boards, decoder, speaker, etc. ) from Lionel? If that's so, I've done enough electronic "things" in my life to give a conversion of a William's product a go even if I have to stuff the "guts" into a reefer.
Dan
The cheapest way to find the Lionchief boards is typically to find an old Lionchief locomotive and salvage the boards from that.
OK on cheapest but can one purchase them from Lionel?
With my luck it would be the boards that went belly up in an old loco.
Dan
@geepboy posted:... With my luck it would be the boards that went belly up in an old loco.
Dan,
That would be the conclusion that many people reach because they assume that electronics are fragile and do not last very long.
Unfortunately it's just as likely, especially with the inexpensive sets and engines, that the motor or gearing gives up the ghost first.
This is exacerbated by the tendency of newbies, and most of us when we were newbies, to run these things to death. Round and round the little loop of track for hours at a time, Halloween, Christmas, or otherwise.
Given this you'll be able to find good electronics that you can pull out of bad mechanicals, overworked, under-designed, or otherwise.
Now, to make sure that you're successful let's hope that you don't have that bad luck you're worried about ...
Mike
The how I got started in just such conversions- TW and others had dirt cheap sales on unsold Lionchief Plus FT B units that were powered. That netted a smoke unit and complete board + motors and trucks. Problem was, B units don't have a speaker, but investigating and plugging an 8 ohm speaker into the board, they had sounds- just also had to jumper the sound switch location in the controls switch group. Another catch22, there are different shapes and sizes of board, so these car body FTs use a large square footprint board that also has vertical riser cards and won't fit a narrow body cab. Another catch22 on B unit boards, the lighting section of the board was not populated (missing tiny SMD transistors and the lighting socket connector).
Example http://www.lionel.com/products...unit-diesel-6-82303/
A lot of the cheap LC boards on Lionel parts are now marked Out Of Stock. Maybe Vernon can find you one, he's pretty conversant with the LC boards.
Again, pros discussed of going Lionchief- and even more specifically older and thus cheaper Lionchief RF only (pre-Bluetooth).
Con of the other board, it's not bluetooth and thus requires either buying the matching remote for that engine- or buying the universal remote.
The motor driver section is one area of change over time and revisions. Most recently, new LC (Lionchief) 5.0 boards have been coming with much smaller current rating in the H-bridge and have seen failure even just driving stock Lionchief motors that get mechanically jammed. The older boards had a much higher rating and much lower failure rate in my observations.
So- key here is knowing what the loco you intend to put this into draws. Example a typical dual motor Williams- you better be going series on those dual motor and even then might push a new LC 5.0 board to let the magic smoke out.
Example RS3 board I have used https://www.lionelsupport.com/LIONCHIEF-PCB-RS-3 or the other one https://www.lionelsupport.com/...IEF-PCB-PATRIOT-U36B
Power coming in is JST-EH
Motor, speaker, and the sound switch connectors are JST-PH- also red Lighting connector in this diesel.
Sound switch must be closed for full sounds- otherwise, open is signal sounds only.
691-CN20-003 is only used on steam for optical chuff- completely unused on a diesel.
FYI, Patriot remote is only $15 https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-682428-PATRIOT-U36B
So, in theory at least, a $45 board, $15 remote, and a speaker, and a conventional unit gets a remote control? I've got an RDC and a Doodlebug that I'd like to make remote operable, but they aren't worth the current expense of upgrading to TMCC... These run on 18v AC?
Keep in mind that the LC boards have sounds a well, so you'll want to pick one that matches the locomotive you're putting them into.
@Magicland posted:So, in theory at least, a $45 board, $15 remote, and a speaker, and a conventional unit gets a remote control? I've got an RDC and a Doodlebug that I'd like to make remote operable, but they aren't worth the current expense of upgrading to TMCC... These run on 18v AC?
Yes, 18V AC or DC. Lionchief sets came with 18V DC power packs, but also can be used on 18V AC track too.
8 Ohm speaker
3A motor current "max" to be safe.
If you elect to install LionChief, don't forget you will need the universal controller for operation.
@BOB WALKER posted:If you elect to install LionChief, don't forget you will need the universal controller for operation.
Thanks for joining the conversation. Already established that the correct remote for that specific board is $15 VS the $55 MSRP for the universal.
Thanks for playing- pull forward to the next window sir.
Having worked with the LionChief boards, keep in mind that all the interconnections on the board are sockets of various sizes. A way around needing all the corresponding plugs is to carefully solder to the socket connections on the back side of the PC board.
@Vernon Barry posted:Yes, 18V AC or DC. Lionchief sets came with 18V DC power packs, but also can be used on 18V AC track too.
8 Ohm speaker
3A motor current "max" to be safe.
For stuff that requires care for the maximum motor current, I recommend starting with a PTC. Given the fact that you're not going to be pulling 40 car consists with this board, consider about a 1.1-1.2A hold PTC in series with one motor lead. The trip value will be roughly twice that, and if you get to maybe 4 amps, they should trip very quickly.
@BOB WALKER posted:Having worked with the LionChief boards, keep in mind that all the interconnections on the board are sockets of various sizes. A way around needing all the corresponding plugs is to carefully solder to the socket connections on the back side of the PC board.
YUCK! I recommend against this approach, if you have to take the board out, it's a major PITA!
Do these support directional lighting? I see there's 3 pins on the lighting connector.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Keep in mind that the LC boards have sounds a well, so you'll want to pick one that matches the locomotive you're putting them into.
Is there a relatively easy way to connect the LC boards to an ERR RS Commander / RS Lite board and override the LC board's sounds?
@Matt_GNo27 posted:Is there a relatively easy way to connect the LC boards to an ERR RS Commander / RS Lite board and override the LC board's sounds?
No, Lionchief is not serial data.
@Magicland posted:Do these support directional lighting? I see there's 3 pins on the lighting connector.
Some do, yes, depends on the board and firmware- as well as if the board even has the secondary lighting card.
I do not have a pinout handy. Suffice to say, 3 pins, common, F, R. Now if common is + or -, I just do not have that handy.
WOW! I never thought that my little question would result in this type of thread. So...
1) Thanks to all who responded, and
2) Given all the "caution flags" I think I'll just wait until Lionel produces what I want.
Does Lionel ever produce any Traditional (I think that means post-war size) product with Lionchief Plus or even 2.0?
Dan
@geepboy posted:WOW! I never thought that my little question would result in this type of thread. So...
2) Given all the "caution flags" I think I'll just wait until Lionel produces what I want.
Dan
Dan,
Very sorry to hear that.
Is this another case of flooding a thread with details to the point of scaring away a newbie?
Please don't consider these details to be caution flags. Most of them do not apply to your original request, which is a very reasonable one, with a simple answer to it: Yes, you can do it.
One step at a time. To quote a famous 'celebrity' in our hobby: "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can ...
And with the help of folks here on the forum ...
... I know I can!"
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Is this another case of flooding a thread with details to the point of scaring away a newbie?Mike
Maybe.
But the others do raise some very important points:
1) How do I get the correct sounds?
2) What about the remote couplers?
3) How does it all fit? Perhaps not well - do I stuff it into a reefer?
4) Perhaps most important of all - I'm getting older - OK, old - and my eyes and hands don't work like they used to. Bottom line - I'm probably better off just buying RTR product - easier on the brain.
I think I can...
A man just gotta know his limitations - Dirty Harry
@geepboy posted:Does Lionel ever produce any Traditional (I think that means post-war size) product with Lionchief Plus or even 2.0?
Yes. All, to my knowledge, LC, LC+, and LC+2 products are traditional-size. Some, including the F3 and NW2 use the postwar molds, some, such as the GP20 and U36B use MPC molds, and others may use more modern, but still traditional-sized, molds.
@geepboy, it sounds to me like the major caution, especialy with LC boards, is making sure the current load isn't too high for the board. As for remote couplers, you wouldn't have that option with an LC board; for sounds you'll have to pair the donor board to the host locomotive.
Don't give up just yet! Did you have a particular host locomotive in mind?
@Matt_GNo27 posted:@geepboy, it sounds to me like the major caution, especialy with LC boards is making sure the current load isn't too high for the board. As for remote couplers, you wouldn't have that option with an LC board; for sounds you'll have to pair the donor board to the host locomotive.
Many Lionchief boards support remote coupler operation, and even smoke units. The NW2 board, for instance. $55, remotes that support couplers seem to run between $22 and $28. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...NW-2-SOUTHERN-682166
@Magicland posted:Many Lionchief boards support remote coupler operation, and even smoke units. The NW2 board, for instance. $55, remotes that support couplers seem to run between $22 and $28. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...NW-2-SOUTHERN-682166
That is a LionChief+, not a LionChief locomotive. LionChief locomotives do not have electrocouplers.
@Matt_GNo27 posted:That is a LionChief+, not a LionChief locomotive.
Guess Lionel couldn't be bothered mentioning that in their parts description...
@Magicland posted:Many Lionchief boards support remote coupler operation, and even smoke units. The NW2 board, for instance. $55, remotes that support couplers seem to run between $22 and $28. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...NW-2-SOUTHERN-682166
The board is cheap, but you need the tach encoder and toothed flywheel on the motor to use that board.
Since Lionel doesn't seem to be able to be consistent in applying a "+" character to item descriptions, does anyone know anything about this board? https://www.lionelsupport.com/...UETOOTH-RS-3-C-OF-NJ
Lionchief, or LC+? No picture, so no idea what the pinouts/connectors would be. Any chance the PCB is labeled? Says it supports bluetooth, so would it work with the app instead of needing a remote? I do know they make a Lionchief CNJ RS3 with bluetooth http://www.lionel.com/products...f-rs-3-1219-1934060/
I know, I'm getting pretty far down the rabbit hole here...
@Magicland posted:Since Lionel doesn't seem to be able to be consistent in applying a "+" character to item descriptions, does anyone know anything about this board? https://www.lionelsupport.com/...UETOOTH-RS-3-C-OF-NJ
Lionchief, or LC+? No picture, so no idea what the pinouts/connectors would be. Any chance the PCB is labeled? Says it supports bluetooth, so would it work with the app instead of needing a remote? I do know they make a Lionchief CNJ RS3 with bluetooth http://www.lionel.com/products...f-rs-3-1219-1934060/
I know, I'm getting pretty far down the rabbit hole here...
Thats a Lionchief board. Look at the truck breakdown - no tach reader since the motor is in the truck. No way to add such to this beast either.
On a side note these type of engines with motors in the truck don't seem to work with an ERR Cruise Commander either - back EMF not reliable.
Yes you could use the APP instead of the dedicated remote on the 1934060 RS-3 you linked too.
Jim
While the OP may have been scared off by the info in this post, "I am eating it up".
So GeepBoy thank you for starting this topic! "And stay with me".
Let me see if I can clarify, by asking a few questions of those more knowledgeable her. If I got this right, we might both benefit. (Below when I use Lionchief, not followed by Plus it means just that.)
If I want to convert an Older CONVETIONAL Loco to Remote Control than l need to use a Lionchief Board Not a latter Lionchief Plus with or without Bluetooth, because those require a Tach Input, Correct? (Unless I am converting a Loco that already has older TMCC with a chopper wheel / tape Flywheel).
The later Plus boards tach input provides built-in Cruise, Correct?
Also ALL Lionchief Boards are a Single board solution, with all functionality including sound built-in, Correct?
Lionchief therefore can used to control direction and speed of operation, and provides operating and pre-recorded dialog sounds, along with horn and bell. Correct?
The board firmware is not changeable, therefore if I have a Steam Loco, I want a Lionchief Steam derived Board, so it sounds like a Steam Engine Not a Diesel, Correct?
With a Lionchief board I will NOT have Electro-Couplers or Cruise, Correct?
The Universal Remote, or the remote originally sold with that board is need as a Transmitter, Correct?
The warning is, the board may fry IF overloaded by too much current demanded by the locomotive being converted, Correct?
Someone with more knowledge of this Please confirm. Thank you very much!
@MainLine Steam posted:
Also ALL Lionchief Boards are a Single board solution, with all functionality including sound built-in, Correct?
Correct. (Not including the small boards attached to the headlight and cablight/numberboards.)Lionchief therefore can used to control direction and speed of operation, and provides operating and pre-recorded dialog sounds, along with horn and bell. Correct?
Correct.With a Lionchief board I will NOT have Electro-Couplers or Cruise, Correct?
Correct.The Universal Remote, or the remote originally sold with that board is need as a Transmitter, Correct?
Incorrect. LionChief boards from locomotives new in the the 2017 catalogs and later will have Bluetooth functionality.
See the parts diagram for a LC FT:
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...luetooth-159-6-84720
@Matt_GNo27 posted:
Thank you Matt!
I misunderstood, and thought that Lionchief Plus replaced Lionchief, not that some both systems are still offered.
Also I thought of one more question.
Please clarify that if I have a Loco with a chopper wheel and optical sensor, K-Line F7A (OEM TMCC), that I could then use a Plus Board and therefore have Cruise and Functional Electro-Couplers.
By installing boards in each F7A, they then could operate indepently, no more Lead Unit (master) Trailing Unit (slave) scenario as originally built. These Units originally have a Control and Sound Board / Speaker in the Lead Unit Only, and Motor Drivers in Each Unit. Trailing Unit shown in photo (note electro-coupler on cab-end). Have electronics "shrunk" that much and in 20 years, or is a driver board this size required to properly handle the power this unit can draw?
Regarding the lower amperage version of the Lionchief motor driver daughter card- found in many new recent Lionchief with Bluetooth boards.
Looking those parts up, those are IRF7343 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015355f68c1a1b73
Key rating here is the P channel side of this dual MOSFET limited to 3.4A however dropping to 2.7 quickly at 70C temp.
Again, in an H bridge, one P channel conducts, and one N channel to drive the motor in a given direction. So the limit is the lowest device in the chain (typically the P channel MOSFET which has higher ON resistance).
VS, the older motor driver daughter card.
That driver card uses discrete components rather than these combined chip solution seen in the more recent boards.
IRF5305 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a401535632522820ff
IRLR024N https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015356694f7f265d
This nets a worst case 12A "rating".
Now key here, this is just showing the transistors, not the circuit traces, not the bridge rectifier, not how strong the gate is driven and to what voltage, how well are the transistors heatsinked and so forth.
@Vernon Barry posted:Regarding the lower amperage version of the Lionchief motor driver daughter card- found in many new recent Lionchief with Bluetooth boards.
Looking those parts up, those are IRF7343 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015355f68c1a1b73
Key rating here is the P channel side of this dual MOSFET limited to 3.4A however dropping to 2.7 quickly at 70C temp.
Again, in an H bridge, one P channel conducts, and one N channel to drive the motor in a given direction. So the limit is the lowest device in the chain (typically the P channel MOSFET which has higher ON resistance).
VS, the older motor driver daughter card.
That driver card uses discrete components rather than these combined chip solution seen in the more recent boards.
IRF5305 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a401535632522820ff
IRLR024N https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015356694f7f265d
This nets a worst case 12A "rating".
Now key here, this is just showing the transistors, not the circuit traces, not the bridge rectifier, not how strong the gate is driven and to what voltage, how well are the transistors heatsinked and so forth.
So if I understand correctly, "to be safe", should try to use the drivers currently installed rather than rely on just plugging the motor into the Lionchief board, correct? Which I am not sure how to implement.
Think I am better off just making sure the Lionchief board I buy has the High Power Rating. How do I figure this out when purchasing a board?
@MainLine Steam posted:So if I understand correctly, "to be safe", should try to use the drivers currently installed rather than rely on just plugging the motor into the Lionchief board, correct? Which I am not sure how to implement.
Think I am better off just making sure the Lionchief board I buy has the High Power Rating. How do I figure this out when purchasing a board?
You can't use your existing motor driver parts, the LC board is kinda' an all or nothing deal.
@MainLine Steam posted:making sure the Lionchief board I buy has the High Power Rating. How do I figure this out when purchasing a board?
And there, my friend, lies the issue. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ords=lionchief%20pcb
I know the cheaper older Lionchief RF remote only non-bluetooth boards have the higher power motor driver section. These are all the $45 boards in the list (as of today).
The issue comes in picking a newer Bluetooth enabled board. Lionel did not post pictures of the board, or in some cases a generic substitute. Nowhere in the name nor designation would you be able to know for sure. These are the $75 boards- just some examples below.
FYI, that failure picture in the previous post- that was from a http://www.lionel.com/products...onchief-set-2023010/ and this specific part number https://www.lionelsupport.com/...OOTH-0-8-0-STRASBURG
@MainLine Steam posted:Have electronics "shrunk" that much and in 20 years, or is a driver board this size required to properly handle the power this unit can draw?
While there have been advances, motor drivers and heatsinks are a clear indicator of capability.
Even a "good" Lionchief board has no heatsinks.
@Vernon Barry posted:While there have been advances, motor drivers and heatsinks are a clear indicator of capability.
Even a "good" Lionchief board has no heatsinks.
Thanks Vernon that is what I suspected!
I am a Mechanical Engineer not Electrical. I tell those less technically inclined, through my career I have seen a LOT of advances (probably 10 fold in electronics vs mechanical) but the laws of physics haven't changed. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You can't use your existing motor driver parts, the LC board is kinda' an all or nothing deal.
Thank you very much John! Kinda what I figured, but now I know for sure. When I get too far into electronics I know it is better to ask an expert, than "take a guess". And I know way better, (at this point in my life), than to "just take a shot, maybe it will work". LOL
Actually, electronics has shrunk a great deal. For instance, here is the motor driver board for MTH PS/3 steam, including even the big stuff. At a little over a square inch of board, they run any motor you'd find in stuff like a 20 pound Premier Big Boy.
The Lionel RCMC is about 1.2" x 3" and includes everything but sound. The newer versions in the same footprint include sound.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Actually, electronics has shrunk a great deal. For instance, here is the motor driver board for MTH PS/3 steam, including even the big stuff. At a little over a square inch of board, they run any motor you'd find in stuff like a 20 pound Premier Big Boy.
The Lionel RCMC is about 1.2" x 3" and includes everything but sound. The newer versions in the same footprint include sound.
Interesting, John.
Without going "way over my head", how are they able to rectify the power without a lot of Heat Sinking required? Is it done a different way than traditional bridge circuits?
@MainLine Steam posted:Interesting, John.
Without going "way over my head", how are they able to rectify the power without a lot of Heat Sinking required? Is it done a different way than traditional bridge circuits?
The DC power is supplied to this board from the tender board through the "wireless" tether, but the boiler board has the motor driver FETs, smoke control, and all the lighting FETs.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The DC power is supplied to this board from the tender board through the "wireless" tether, but the boiler board has the motor driver FETs, smoke control, and all the lighting FETs.
Thanks John!
On the subject of shrinkage of electronic control devices, compare the LionChief module with the new Blunami for an outstanding example of this trend.
Gonna kick start this thread after reading through it....
I have a Weaver RS-3 New York New Haven Hartford that I recently purchased from Trainz. Seems the reversing board will only let the engine run in one direction, either forward or reverse. After some back and forth with Trainz, they offered a discount on the purchase price. It's in like new condition, and I like the older New Haven scheme, so I decided to keep it for an upgrade.
After reviewing the info here, short of a full ERR upgrade, it seems that an original LC board for an RS-3 would be an economical upgrade to get remote control and sound. A Dallee board would be more $$$ and still be just conventional. I plan to purchase a universal remote for the layout too.
Granted there's still no electro-couplers, and I don't run smoke so that's a non issue for me.
The engine has 2 vertical can motors so motor current may be an issue? Yes? My small layout doesn't allow for 20 car trains anyway.
If I've got it right, the LC+ and LC+2.0 boards require the optical sensor and flywheel for speed control so as @gunrunnerjohn said, it's a bridge to far.....
This is one of the $80.00 boards that @Vernon Barry mentioned. This will work? Or should I stick to the basic LC boards for the engine.
Bob
Why not just put a Blunami 2200 in it? I converted my scale Williams 44 tonner with no electronics background. I have low speed control that Lionel & MTH can only dream of, great sound, and multiple lighting effects. Populating an electrocoupler board now to add. All this for less than $150.
@Trainmstr posted:Why not just put a Blunami 2200 in it? I converted my scale Williams 44 tonner with no electronics background. I have low speed control that Lionel & MTH can only dream of, great sound, and multiple lighting effects. Populating an electrocoupler board now to add. All this for less than $150.
I've considered Blunami but I've decided to hold off on a 3rd control system for now. I'll stay with Lionel and MTH for the near term. I'm not a huge fan of tablets and phones for control either. Don't hate it, I use the LC app frequently, I just prefer a remote in hand......must be a sign of getting old.........
@geepboy posted:To my very limited knowledge there is no way to add all of the Lionel Lionchief capabilities to a non-Lionel loco. I'm looking for a way to easily remotely control a loco which only has conventional control. For me, that's Lionchief Plus. I know there's a DCC way or maybe even a Legacy way but I have no interest in that.
So, as far as I know, if I want Lionchief, I must purchase Lionel. Is my understanding correct?
Dan
I'd look at other simpler and more proven options for these conversions to remote control.
First, if you can live with controlling track voltage, direction, horn, and bell remotely, a Lionel Powermaster between the transformer and track and a Cab-1 provide this for conventional operations. No electrocouplers and no controlling the locomotive directly in what's known as "command control" but this simple, lowest-cost alternative satisfies many.
Next, I'd simply look at buying new-old-stock and used original TMCC locomotives in traditional size. These are relatively plentiful, fairly reliable, and fairly inexpensive. For example, I believe I saw a forumite put a TMCC-equipped 0-4-0 switcher for $150. I've purchased nicely used TMCC engines for $200. Good supply out there generally under $300.
For an actual conversion, I've had several modern conventional Williams engines converted to ERR TMCC. Bullet-proof but no longer inexpensive.
The latter two options bring full command control and electrcouplers, better than newer Lionchief, on par with Lionchief Plus, and a shade behind Lionchief Plus 2.0 but a lot cheaper.
@RSJB18 posted:This is one of the $80.00 boards that @Vernon Barry mentioned. This will work? Or should I stick to the basic LC boards for the engine.
This board will work fine, it's a plain LC with BT, and should drop right in. Obviously, you have to sort out the connectors...
@gunrunnerjohn posted:This board will work fine, it's a plain LC with BT, and should drop right in. Obviously, you have to sort out the connectors...
Thanks John. I will take another look at the parts site, some of the board pix show what each plug is for.
Bob
I received the LC/BT board for my Weaver RS3 today. I had ordered it a couple weeks ago but Lionel shipped me the board for the remote, not the engine.
All of the plugs are labeled on the board! YAY! 
Looks like these boards have only one motor output (white plug on the vertical board), so running 2 can motors through it might be a stretch. I'll do some testing and see what the current draw is before putting it all together.
Now to make time to work on it.....
Top plug is smoke (Maybe a cab light or strobe?)
Top right- (not sure but.....labels are: GND, RST, +3.3V, CLK, DAT). Maybe not used on this engine?
Large white plug in center- motor output
Bottom left vertical- board power
Bottom horizontal- switch and speaker
Top horizontal- chuff and lights
The boards frequently run two motors, but note that some Weaver (and Williams) diesels are notorious for having motors that draw a lot of current.
@RSJB18 posted:Looks like these boards have only one motor output (white plug on the vertical board), so running 2 can motors through it might be a stretch. I'll do some testing and see what the current draw is before putting it all together.
Yes, at some point Lionel changed the PWM H bridge motor drive daughter card production. This is the weak point of the board now.
This new design use:
Looking those parts up, those are IRF7343 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015355f68c1a1b73
Key rating here is the P channel side of this dual MOSFET limited to 3.4A however dropping to 2.7 quickly at 70C temp.
Again, in an H bridge, one P channel conducts, and one N channel to drive the motor in a given direction. So the limit is the lowest device in the chain (typically the P channel MOSFET which has higher ON resistance).
I've lost count now of how many dead boards have crossed my repair desk with this new style board with the weaker motor drive components.
Previous designs used larger discrete components capable of much higher sustained and even peak motor current.
Again, to be fair, Lionel is using the new design on all new product I have seen go through our shop and local purchases- meaning they use it for example in those new Lionchief dual motor Dash 8, the dual motor ET44 Lionchief, and so on.
So yes, they do use it with dual motors- but they are small motors and lower current.
And, I've seen failures in even single motor locos (example a General) that somehow jammed the driveline and the user kept trying to run it until it popped.
I am trying to follow this thread, but somewhat confused. I would like to do the same thing.
My understanding the board RSJB18 has is rated (safely) for 2.7 Amps max, correct? When wiring the 2 motors to the board, should they be wired in series or parallel? Does it make a difference in not overloading the board? I like to run scale speeds, not race around in circles.
Please let me know. Thank you!
@MainLine Steam posted:I am trying to follow this thread, but somewhat confused. I would like to do the same thing.
My understanding the board RSJB18 has is rated (safely) for 2.7 Amps max, correct? When wiring the 2 motors to the board, should they be wired in series or parallel? Does it make a difference in not overloading the board? I like to run scale speeds, not race around in circles.
Please let me know. Thank you!
Series wiring of the motors results in less current draw and slower speed. You kind of have to test each application. Example, you may find wiring in series- simply the motors run too slow even wide open throttle (Lionchief throttle) at 18V track voltage.
@Vernon Barry posted:Series wiring of the motors results in less current draw and slower speed. You kind of have to test each application. Example, you may find wiring in series- simply the motors run too slow even wide open throttle (Lionchief throttle) at 18V track voltage.
Thank you very much!
My understanding is that Lionchief boards can operate on DC power, is that correct or does it only apply to certain boards? I am planning on running battery powered.
Currently operating a pair of Weaver EL U25b's with LC board and controller from LC NYC RS3. Both run like a top. Easy upgrade.
Each has same LC board donator so can run with 1 controller...doubleheading!
Walter
@MainLine Steam posted:Thank you very much!
My understanding is that Lionchief boards can operate on DC power, is that correct or does it only apply to certain boards? I am planning on running battery powered.
Lionchief boards can run AC or DC so yes, can use with DC or battery power.
@Walter Matuch posted:Currently operating a pair of Weaver EL U25b's with LC board and controller from LC NYC RS3. Both run like a top. Easy upgrade.
Each has same LC board donator so can run with 1 controller...doubleheading!
Walter
I have a Weaver FA/FB set (late production with dual vertical motors in each unit). Never had even thought of what you are doing, that is brilliant! Makes it so easy. Thank you.
@Vernon Barry posted:Lionchief boards can run AC or DC so yes, can use with DC or battery power.
Thank you very much for helping me with this. I can determine voltage required to make it acceptable by running 3R DC and then use the correct battery pack.
@MainLine Steam posted:Thank you very much for helping me with this. I can determine voltage required to make it acceptable by running 3R DC and then use the correct battery pack.
FWIW, on the bench I test Lionchief boards with a 9V battery. I would consider that the low end of the workable range with 18V being the recommended maximum. Lionchief sets ship with an 18V DC supply.
@Walter Matuch posted:Currently operating a pair of Weaver EL U25b's with LC board and controller from LC NYC RS3. Both run like a top. Easy upgrade.
Each has same LC board donator so can run with 1 controller...doubleheading!
Walter
Walter- what motors are in the U25's? My RS3 has vertical can motors. I don't have it open right now to check on the model #.
@MainLine Steam posted:I have a Weaver FA/FB set (late production with dual vertical motors in each unit). Never had even thought of what you are doing, that is brilliant! Makes it so easy. Thank you.
That's what I was thinking too. I have a few nicer conventional locos that I'd like to make command capable without dropping major money on ERR or PS3/2 boards. I'm hoping this is a good middle of the road solution.
Bob
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The boards frequently run two motors, but note that some Weaver (and Williams) diesels are notorious for having motors that draw a lot of current.
Mine is from the 2011 catalog. Not the older chain/belt drive.
@RSJB18 posted:Walter- what motors are in the U25's? My RS3 has vertical can motors. I don't have it open right now to check on the model #.
The motors are doubtless the Mabuchi 3xx series, probably the RS385's.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The motors are doubtless the Mabuchi 3xx series, probably the RS385's.
Thanks John. I'm sure I'll make my way to the basement later. I'm anxious to get this going.
This is the topic I created a couple of years when I bought my Weaver FA/FB Set.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ou-think-please-help
I will take them out and find out what motors they have. I now have a loop of track with a 1950's era KW that I can run them on.
Motors are RS-385PH made in China. They are wired in Parallel. I need to take apart and lube, but at this point at full throttle (20VAC) they do not run very fast (appear they are NIB).
These are not at the top of my list for conversion as they are TMCC with Sound and Cruise and work OK Conventionally. I do not have TMCC, if anyone is interested I might be able to take them and try them out on a TMCC Layout.
@MainLine Steam posted:Thank you very much for helping me with this. I can determine voltage required to make it acceptable by running 3R DC and then use the correct battery pack.
14.8v Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) would be an excellent choice for a great majority of O Gauge engines. Get the largest mah that will fit your engine or tender. I use anything from 2200 - 3200 mah.
Make sure you get a Li-Ion with PCB for protection from under and over current. A simple and cheap smart charger works great with them. Avoid Li-Po batts if possible. The extra balance lead and special charging requirements make it very difficult for onboard charging.
Ron
Doing another transplant with 6 Weaver SD-40s. 3 each will have same LC 'brains' so I can run triple-header CNJ SD-40s. Yes they all have been repainted into roadnumbers not issued by Atlas or Lionel.
Pretty soon more 6 motors on the O-gauge BIG little Railroad.
Doing the transplant is easier than TMCC/ERR/PS-3 upgrades in my opinion and like poster RSJB18 above said.
Walter
.
@Ron045 posted:14.8v Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) would be an excellent choice for a great majority of O Gauge engines. Get the largest mah that will fit your engine or tender. I use anything from 2200 - 3200 mah.
Make sure you get a Li-Ion with PCB for protection from under and over current. A simple and cheap smart charger works great with them. Avoid Li-Po batts if possible. The extra balance lead and special charging requirements make it very difficult for onboard charging.
Ron
Thanks Ron, glad you mentioned that.
Before getting bitten by the O Scale bug I was flying Electric Powered R/C Planes, the power requirements are much different. Usually the Li-Po battery is depleted (100% to 30% state of charge) in about 6 minutes. And then they recharge in about 1/2 hour or less. If everything goes well, you might get 100 cycles out of a battery.
@MainLine Steam posted:Thanks Ron, glad you mentioned that.
Before getting bitten by the O Scale bug I was flying Electric Powered R/C Planes, the power requirements are much different. Usually the Li-Po battery is depleted (100% to 30% state of charge) in about 6 minutes. And then they recharge in about 1/2 hour or less. If everything goes well, you might get 100 cycles out of a battery.
I agree. I fly RC also. Li-Po's are designed to provide a lot of energy quickly. Trains don't need that. I can pull a long train for 3 plus hours non stop on a single charge of a 3000 mah LiIon.
In reality, the way I run trains, I can go days or weeks between charges. And if one needs a charge, I just pull a different one out of the inventory.
Ron
@Walter Matuch posted:Doing another transplant with 6 Weaver SD-40s. 3 each will have same LC 'brains' so I can run triple-header CNJ SD-40s. Yes they all have been repainted into road numbers not issued by Atlas or Lionel.
Pretty soon more 6 motors on the O-gauge BIG little Railroad.
Doing the transplant is easier than TMCC/ERR/PS-3 upgrades in my opinion and like poster RSJB18 above said.
Walter
.
Nice locos! I waved to the guy in 3066 and he waved back. Actually, that's about the only thing the latest generation of trains don't do. Thanks for the post.
@Ron045 posted:I agree. I fly RC also. Li-Po's are designed to provide a lot of energy quickly. Trains don't need that. I can pull a long train for 3 plus hours non stop on a single charge of a 3000 mah LiIon.
In reality, the way I run trains, I can go days or weeks between charges. And if one needs a charge, I just pull a different one out of the inventory.
Ron
You know I've wondered if for trains if NiMh batteries might be even better? With them you have virtually zero chance of catching fire. I have some AA Cells that are about 14 years old and they still work fine. Seem to have a much better shelf life. Self discharge is also quite low. Based on the run time you have seen average discharge rate would be 0.5C, so (maybe?) 2C max (burst).
Nominal voltage per cell is 1.2 (at full charge about 1.4) and the hicap AA's are 2300 mah. So 10 in series? Unless internal battery resistance becomes an issue?
Ron do you know if guys have tried this?
@MainLine Steam posted:You know I've wondered if for trains if NiMh batteries might be even better? With them you have virtually zero chance of catching fire. I have some AA Cells that are about 14 years old and they still work fine. Seem to have a much better shelf life. Self discharge is also quite low. Based on the run time you have seen average discharge rate would be 0.5C, so (maybe?) 2C max (burst).
Nominal voltage per cell is 1.2 (at full charge about 1.4) and the hicap AA's are 2300 mah. So 10 in series? Unless internal battery resistance becomes an issue?
Ron do you know if guys have tried this?
I have always used LiIon. @BOB WALKER probably has used all sorts of battery chemistry's.
I believe the Nimh limits your size, space, duration a little bit.
Ron
I powered up the board and found it with the LC app. Tested the output and all good so far.
Thought the plugs were JST....not!
Anybody know what they are? Molex?
Bob
@RSJB18 posted:I powered up the board and found it with the LC app. Tested the output and all good so far.
Thought the plugs were JST....not!
Anybody know what they are? Molex?
Bob
All the LC boards I have here have JST-PH and JST-EH connections. How about a closeup of the connectors in question?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:All the LC boards I have here have JST-PH and JST-EH connections. How about a closeup of the connectors in question?
I have a box of PH connectors and they are too big. The plugs on the board don't have the slot for the mating JST plugs either.
I blew up the pix I took yesterday.
thanks
The cream colored ones are JST-ZH connectors and the white one is a JST-PH connector. The power connector is a JST-EH connector.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The cream colored ones are JST-ZH connectors and the white one is a JST-PH connector. The power connector is a JST-EH connector.
Thanks- I'll look for pre-made plugs. I have enough trouble building the PH plugs. Those crimps are small enough as is.
I bought all the JST-ZH cables ready-made from Aliexpress for my Legacy upgrades using the BEMC and RCMC boards. I also use the pre-made cables for my Legacy test sets.
@RSJB18 posted:Thanks- I'll look for pre-made plugs. I have enough trouble building the PH plugs. Those crimps are small enough as is.
Agreed! IMO plugs with leads are the only way to go, unless you are a glutton for punishment.
@MainLine Steam posted:Agreed! IMO plugs with leads are the only way to go, unless you are a glutton for punishment.
I've done enough wiring in my career to know where to draw the line. I've got better things to do than curse at these tiny plugs......
@RSJB18 posted:I've done enough wiring in my career to know where to draw the line. I've got better things to do that curse at these tiny plugs......
I can only imagine. My hands on time in NY Tel was spent on soldering lugs and wire wrapping guns. The connectors were showing up gradually.
@pennsyfan posted:I can only imagine. My hands on time in NY Tel was spent on soldering lugs and wire wrapping guns. The connectors were showing up gradually.
I still have a wire-wrap gun around here somewhere. I used to make my own S-100 computer boards using wirewrap.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I bought all the JST-ZH cables ready-made from Aliexpress for my Legacy upgrades using the BEMC and RCMC boards. I also use the pre-made cables for my Legacy test sets.
Thanks for the info on Ali-Express John. Found the wire harnesses I need. Ordered 10 of each config up to 6 pin. They are dirt cheap.
Bob
@RSJB18 posted:Thanks for the info on Ali-Express John. Found the wire harnesses I need. Ordered 10 of each config up to 6 pin. They are dirt cheap.
That's why I buy them there! I have had to crimp some of the 1.5mm JST-ZH contacts, but they're tricky. I've had to do a few of the Molex 1.25mm contacts as well, they're really a PITA, typically I have to do a couple to get one. I'm not willing to spend $600 for the proper tool for the tiny contacts, that's most of the problem.
I even tried to crimp some of the MTH 1.0mm contacts for PS/3, EPIC FAIL! 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:That's why I buy them there!
I even tried to crimp some of the MTH 1.0mm contacts for PS/3, EPIC FAIL!
I received my order of harnesses today. Only 10 days from when I placed the order.
I got 2-6 pin......now the fun begins!
They've really upped their game on shipping from China lately.
Making progress on installing my LC/BT board in my Weaver RS-3.
A question for @gunrunnerjohn or @Vernon Barry
I was testing the switch I/O's on the board last night. The original engine was part of a RTR LC set which didn't come with a smoke unit. When I test the smoke outputs from the board, the LC app says "smoke switch not turned on".
Am I correct in assuming that the board is not programmed to run smoke so these outputs are useless? I wasn't planning on adding smoke but thought I could use the output to control a cab light remotely.
The parts diagram for the engine only shows a switch for sounds on/off.
There is a 5vdc source available from this plug. I suppose I could run a cab light from there, just won't be able to turn it on/off.
Thanks in advance.
Bob
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