Lionchief plus in non-Lionel locos?

@MainLine Steam posted:

Also ALL Lionchief Boards are a Single board solution, with all functionality including sound built-in, Correct?

Correct. (Not including the small boards attached to the headlight and cablight/numberboards.)

Lionchief therefore can used to control direction and speed of operation, and provides operating and pre-recorded dialog sounds, along with horn and bell.  Correct?

Correct.

With a Lionchief board I will NOT have Electro-Couplers or Cruise, Correct?

Correct.

The Universal Remote, or the remote originally sold with that board is need as a Transmitter, Correct?

Incorrect. LionChief boards from locomotives new in the the 2017 catalogs and later will have Bluetooth functionality.

See the parts diagram for a LC FT:
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...luetooth-159-6-84720

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

Thank you Matt!

I misunderstood, and thought that Lionchief Plus replaced Lionchief, not that some both systems are still offered.

Also I thought of one more question.

Please clarify that if I have a Loco with a chopper wheel and optical sensor, K-Line F7A (OEM TMCC), that I could then use a Plus Board and therefore have Cruise and Functional Electro-Couplers.

By installing boards in each F7A, they then could operate indepently, no more Lead Unit (master) Trailing Unit (slave) scenario as originally built.  These Units originally have a Control and Sound Board / Speaker in the Lead Unit Only, and Motor Drivers in Each Unit.  Trailing Unit shown in photo (note electro-coupler on cab-end).  Have electronics "shrunk" that much and in 20 years, or is a driver board this size required to properly handle the power this unit can draw?

Regarding the lower amperage version of the Lionchief motor driver daughter card- found in many new recent Lionchief with Bluetooth boards.

Looking those parts up, those are IRF7343 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015355f68c1a1b73
Key rating here is the P channel side of this dual MOSFET limited to 3.4A however dropping to 2.7 quickly at 70C temp.
Again, in an H bridge, one P channel conducts, and one N channel to drive the motor in a given direction. So the limit is the lowest device in the chain (typically the P channel MOSFET which has higher ON resistance).

VS, the older motor driver daughter card.

That driver card uses discrete components rather than these combined chip solution seen in the more recent boards.
IRF5305 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a401535632522820ff

IRLR024N https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015356694f7f265d

This nets a worst case 12A "rating".

Now key here, this is just showing the transistors, not the circuit traces, not the bridge rectifier, not how strong the gate is driven and to what voltage, how well are the transistors heatsinked and so forth.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Regarding the lower amperage version of the Lionchief motor driver daughter card- found in many new recent Lionchief with Bluetooth boards.

Looking those parts up, those are IRF7343 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015355f68c1a1b73
Key rating here is the P channel side of this dual MOSFET limited to 3.4A however dropping to 2.7 quickly at 70C temp.
Again, in an H bridge, one P channel conducts, and one N channel to drive the motor in a given direction. So the limit is the lowest device in the chain (typically the P channel MOSFET which has higher ON resistance).

VS, the older motor driver daughter card.

That driver card uses discrete components rather than these combined chip solution seen in the more recent boards.
IRF5305 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a401535632522820ff

IRLR024N https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015356694f7f265d

This nets a worst case 12A "rating".

Now key here, this is just showing the transistors, not the circuit traces, not the bridge rectifier, not how strong the gate is driven and to what voltage, how well are the transistors heatsinked and so forth.

So if I understand correctly, "to be safe", should try to use the drivers currently installed rather than rely on just plugging the motor into the Lionchief board, correct?  Which I am not sure how to implement.

Think I am better off just making sure the Lionchief board I buy has the High Power Rating.  How do I figure this out when purchasing a board?

@MainLine Steam posted:

So if I understand correctly, "to be safe", should try to use the drivers currently installed rather than rely on just plugging the motor into the Lionchief board, correct?  Which I am not sure how to implement.

Think I am better off just making sure the Lionchief board I buy has the High Power Rating.  How do I figure this out when purchasing a board?

You can't use your existing motor driver parts, the LC board is kinda' an all or nothing deal.

@MainLine Steam posted:

making sure the Lionchief board I buy has the High Power Rating.  How do I figure this out when purchasing a board?

And there, my friend, lies the issue. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ords=lionchief%20pcb

I know the cheaper older Lionchief RF remote only non-bluetooth boards have the higher power motor driver section. These are all the $45 boards in the list (as of today).

The issue comes in picking a newer Bluetooth enabled board. Lionel did not post pictures of the board, or in some cases a generic substitute. Nowhere in the name nor designation would you be able to know for sure. These are the $75 boards- just some examples below.

FYI, that failure picture in the previous post- that was from a http://www.lionel.com/products...onchief-set-2023010/ and this specific part number https://www.lionelsupport.com/...OOTH-0-8-0-STRASBURG

@MainLine Steam posted:

Have electronics "shrunk" that much and in 20 years, or is a driver board this size required to properly handle the power this unit can draw?

While there have been advances, motor drivers and heatsinks are a clear indicator of capability.

Even a "good" Lionchief board has no heatsinks.

@Vernon Barry posted:

While there have been advances, motor drivers and heatsinks are a clear indicator of capability.

Even a "good" Lionchief board has no heatsinks.

Thanks Vernon that is what I suspected!

I am a Mechanical Engineer not Electrical.  I tell those less technically inclined, through my career I have seen a LOT of advances (probably 10 fold in electronics vs mechanical) but the laws of physics haven't changed.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can't use your existing motor driver parts, the LC board is kinda' an all or nothing deal.

Thank you very much John!  Kinda what I figured, but now I know for sure.  When I get too far into electronics I know it is better to ask an expert, than "take a guess".  And I know way better, (at this point in my life), than to "just take a shot, maybe it will work".  LOL

Actually, electronics has shrunk a great deal.  For instance, here is the motor driver board for MTH PS/3 steam, including even the big stuff.  At a little over a square inch of board, they run any motor you'd find in stuff like a 20 pound Premier Big Boy.

The Lionel RCMC is about 1.2" x 3" and includes everything but sound.  The newer versions in the same footprint include sound.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, electronics has shrunk a great deal.  For instance, here is the motor driver board for MTH PS/3 steam, including even the big stuff.  At a little over a square inch of board, they run any motor you'd find in stuff like a 20 pound Premier Big Boy.

The Lionel RCMC is about 1.2" x 3" and includes everything but sound.  The newer versions in the same footprint include sound.

Interesting, John.

Without going "way over my head", how are they able to rectify the power without a lot of Heat Sinking required?  Is it done a different way than traditional bridge circuits?

@MainLine Steam posted:

Interesting, John.

Without going "way over my head", how are they able to rectify the power without a lot of Heat Sinking required?  Is it done a different way than traditional bridge circuits?

The DC power is supplied to this board from the tender board through the "wireless" tether, but the boiler board has the motor driver FETs, smoke control, and all the lighting FETs.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The DC power is supplied to this board from the tender board through the "wireless" tether, but the boiler board has the motor driver FETs, smoke control, and all the lighting FETs.

Thanks John!

On the subject of shrinkage of electronic control devices, compare the LionChief module with the new Blunami for an outstanding example of this trend.