LionChief Steam Squeaking or Grinding Only in Forward

Correction after watching the video:

This is the classic Lionchief 0-8-0 starter chassis. Yes, the motor directly has the worm and directly takes all the thrust but there is no optical encoder ring and chuff is off the cam and lever system with an optical flag.

Basically- again a starter set engine with small can motor and direct worm gearing. So yes, has limits and does wear.

Further, the loss of chuff is caused by the lever not fully cycling full stroke can be caused by the smoke piston sticking in the bore due to plastic being coated with smoke fluid and or changes in the bore fit. Also, given enough wear, the cam follower can wear down and no provide full cam stroke distance. Either way- the optical flag is no moving enough to break and clear the beam- thus no chuff.

Best to go to Lionel parts with YOUR product number.

That said, here is an example 0-8-0 relevant to the discussion and most every 0-8-0 starter engine even from earlier ones shares common parts and design elements.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-ONLY-425-6803660001

So again,

@Mike Zoppa posted:

Another problem, which might be related is that when I go in reverse, the chuff sound skips a bit and it's repeatable every time I start going in reverse. I just thought since it's a cheap train that this is the best it could do, but maybe it's related.

Hello Vernon,

So, after hearing my cheap Lionel LionChief Penn. Keystone, do you hear an issue with it as it moves forward or do you think it's a normal thing. I'm also curious on the amount of cars that I can pull. I would think that if a train can't pull a lot of cars, then it just would struggle, but I was able to pull about 12 cars with no problem. So, I find it deceptive for Lionel to allow this train to pull this many cars but possible ruin the worm drive - if that's what I did (I still don't know for sure what that sound is). If a train should pull a lot of cars, many years before the days of LionChief trains, the trains would just struggle (I'm guessing). - Anyway, I appreciate the information on the reverse chuff issue. I really don't have a video on that yet, as my first goal was to try and fix the goofy squeak or grind or whatever sound that is. - At this point, I'll probably try to add oil to various areas and see if that fixes it, although I don't know what will happen if I add too much oil. Everyone says don't add too much oil, but I don't know if that would damage anything. I'm planning on using the Labelle 107. It's not the light 108 oil that others say to use. As a matter of fact, even Labelle says 108 is used for the smaller trains. - Anyway, thanks for your feedback. I'd appreciate anything else you have to offer or if you know someone I can send a message to - to ask for their input, that would also be very helpful.

Thanks Again.

The different grinding sound appears to be based on or around the motor. Could be a flywheel rubbing, might be gear, just hard to determine externally. Like I said, in this engine, direct thrust pressure exists pushing the motor shaft up or down depending on direction. The wires around the motor could be rubbing, but positioned so the slight end play lash in the motor- the rub becomes directional.

The brush end is the flywheel end and the wires can be bent when putting the shell on and be too close.

I've got the LionChief Polar Express 2-8-4 Berkshire and the motor is mounted such that worm is forward of the worm wheel on the rearmost drive axle. Therefore, the worm "pushes" on the worm wheel in the forward direction, causing the motor armature to move upward and the flywheel with it. Assuming the motor in your 0-8-0 is mounted the same way, your flywheel may be scraping on the locomotive shell in the forward direction, as @Vernon Barry suggests above. Depending on your tolerance for disassembly, you could remove the shell and check for wear points above the flywheel. Then you could gently file (or Dremel, if you have one) at those wear points to increase the clearance. It should take less than a millimeter if this is the case, since your loco is not slowing significantly during the scraping episodes.

I had a noise like that coming from my Williams 4-6-0.  The side rods were causing it.

John

@Vernon Barry posted:

Best to go to Lionel parts with YOUR product number.

That said, here is an example 0-8-0 relevant to the discussion and most every 0-8-0 starter engine even from earlier ones shares common parts and design elements.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-ONLY-425-6803660001

So again,

This is semi normal but can also be abnormal. In other words, because the smoke piston and lever system is driven off of a camshaft lobe on the front axle- direction and wear can allow the slop in the system to change how much stroke the lever sees, and the piston and plastic cylinder bore of the smoke unit can get "sticky" and the piston does NOT always return- that in turn causes the lever sometimes to not stroke fully and thus the optical flag on the other side of the lever does not make and break the optical beam every time. It could be slop in your unit, a sticky piston, wear to the cam follower plastic part, sideplay in the slot for the cam follower (thus making the stroke different for direction).

Typically, I end up sanding the piston to create a smoother return stroke (maybe smoke fluid and time changes the plastic) and/or smoothing and sanding the bore of the smoke unit cylinder area.

The smoke lever is typically hardened steel- so attempting to bent it often results in it snapping.- just saying, don't go down this train of thought.

Hi Vernon.

I will attempt to resolve the other scrapping problem from the suggestions you and others gave, but in attempting to resolve this reverse chuff skip issue - is it easy to get to the smoke piston? Will I need to remove a bunch of parts to file it down a bit (like you said)? With the number of small parts in this image and Lionel's image from the link you gave - it's very overwhelming to have all these parts out, if that's what's needed. I'm guessing I won't need to take apart everything, but I was hoping to just minimize the parts removal. If I need to remove a lot of parts, maybe this issue isn't worth the trouble. But your logic to this fix sounds like it would resolve the problem.

- Thanks Again.

@Bill Swatos posted:

I've got the LionChief Polar Express 2-8-4 Berkshire and the motor is mounted such that worm is forward of the worm wheel on the rearmost drive axle. Therefore, the worm "pushes" on the worm wheel in the forward direction, causing the motor armature to move upward and the flywheel with it. Assuming the motor in your 0-8-0 is mounted the same way, your flywheel may be scraping on the locomotive shell in the forward direction, as @Vernon Barry suggests above. Depending on your tolerance for disassembly, you could remove the shell and check for wear points above the flywheel. Then you could gently file (or Dremel, if you have one) at those wear points to increase the clearance. It should take less than a millimeter if this is the case, since your loco is not slowing significantly during the scraping episodes.

Thanks for this info. I'll see if I can find wear points.

Thanks.

@Craftech posted:

I had a noise like that coming from my Williams 4-6-0.  The side rods were causing it.

John

Thanks for sharing this. I don't think my issue is this, but I'll keep this in mind if it comes up in the future.

Thanks.

@Vernon Barry posted:

The different grinding sound appears to be based on or around the motor. Could be a flywheel rubbing, might be gear, just hard to determine externally. Like I said, in this engine, direct thrust pressure exists pushing the motor shaft up or down depending on direction. The wires around the motor could be rubbing, but positioned so the slight end play lash in the motor- the rub becomes directional.

The brush end is the flywheel end and the wires can be bent when putting the shell on and be too close.

I filled down the outer shell a bit to remove the metal flak and sharp edges, but I didn't see and metal markings to indicate that was the problem. I also flooded the worm gear area with better grease (labelle 106). Still getting squeak sound but it's less constant. so as it travels down one side of my track it sometime sounds ok. I ran the train a lot thinking maybe the grease needs to work itself in more but that didn't fix it. As I think more about it, I think the sound is coming from the enclosed gears of the (motor / w/flywheel  & gear) - coming from inside of the image above. So, is it possible to add any oil or grease to the inside of this?

Thanks.

@Mike Zoppa posted:

I filled down the outer shell a bit to remove the metal flak and sharp edges, but I didn't see and metal markings to indicate that was the problem. I also flooded the worm gear area with better grease (labelle 106). Still getting squeak sound but it's less constant. so as it travels down one side of my track it sometime sounds ok. I ran the train a lot thinking maybe the grease needs to work itself in more but that didn't fix it. As I think more about it, I think the sound is coming from the enclosed gears of the (motor / w/flywheel  & gear) - coming from inside of the image above. So, is it possible to add any oil or grease to the inside of this?

Thanks.

Do not oil inside the motor!!!…the image you speak of is the motor itself, there are no gears, or anything that needs lubricants inside the motor case!!….you will destroy the motor in short order!!…..

Pat

Pat is correct about the motor having no internal gearing and that excessive lubrication will ruin the motor by getting lubricant on the brushes and commutator. That said, IF you have a needle oiler, a TINY drop of oil at the points where the shaft enters the top and bottom "bearings" of the motor will stop the motor from "squealing," if it is. The "squealing" is due to precessional rotation of the shaft in the bearing when it is dry and the sound comes and goes randomly. I use 85W140 gear oil on metal (bronze) bearings. If the rear (or top) bell of the motor is white plastic (nylon) I apply a small amount of silicone plumber's grease with a hat pin to that bearing and work it down GENTLY with the pin.

@Bill Swatos posted:

Pat is correct about the motor having no internal gearing and that excessive lubrication will ruin the motor by getting lubricant on the brushes and commutator. That said, IF you have a needle oiler, a TINY drop of oil at the points where the shaft enters the top and bottom "bearings" of the motor will stop the motor from "squealing," if it is. The "squealing" is due to precessional rotation of the shaft in the bearing when it is dry and the sound comes and goes randomly. I use 85W140 gear oil on metal (bronze) bearings. If the rear (or top) bell of the motor is white plastic (nylon) I apply a small amount of silicone plumber's grease with a hat pin to that bearing and work it down GENTLY with the pin.

The shaft (small rod between here)?

@harmonyards posted:

Do not oil inside the motor!!!…the image you speak of is the motor itself, there are no gears, or anything that needs lubricants inside the motor case!!….you will destroy the motor in short order!!…..

Pat

I didn't. I just oiled the axels, but no luck so far. - Thanks.

@Mike Zoppa posted:

The shaft (small rod between here)?

Yes, that is the top "bearing" and you do, indeed, have a nylon motor "bell." The clearance between the flywheel and the top bearing looks pretty close, but, if you can, work the small amount of silicone plumber's grease in with the hat pin right where the shaft enters the motor. Hold the pin with the grease against the shaft entry point and turn the flywheel by hand in both directions and you may get enough of the grease in the bearing. Your lower bearing is probably fine since the gearbox grease has probably gotten on the bronze lower bearing.

Sounds like gear noise to me.

Granted that loco is several years old, but in my experience alot of the more recent stuff has required extensive break in time to run smoothly.

I'm not sure if Lionels factory is getting lazy with the tolerances or what. Imo late TMCC and early Legacy are the ones that run like Swiss watches out of the box.

Everything else has to be lubed well and run in.

@Bill Swatos posted:

Yes, that is the top "bearing" and you do, indeed, have a nylon motor "bell." The clearance between the flywheel and the top bearing looks pretty close, but, if you can, work the small amount of silicone plumber's grease in with the hat pin right where the shaft enters the motor. Hold the pin with the grease against the shaft entry point and turn the flywheel by hand in both directions and you may get enough of the grease in the bearing. Your lower bearing is probably fine since the gearbox grease has probably gotten on the bronze lower bearing.

Silicone plumber's grease? - Could I use the labelle 106 grease? I would need to buy some plumber's grease, but I have a little bit of the 106 left over from added that to the other side where the gears are.

Put the grease on this metal shaft, right?

Thanks.

@RickO posted:

Sounds like gear noise to me.

Granted that loco is several years old, but in my experience alot of the more recent stuff has required extensive break in time to run smoothly.

I'm not sure if Lionels factory is getting lazy with the tolerances or what. Imo late TMCC and early Legacy are the ones that run like Swiss watches out of the box.

Everything else has to be lubed well and run in.

Hi RickO,

When you said, "Granted that loco is several years old." - It is, but it isn't. It's new out of the box, but yes it's from 2016 and maybe because it's been in the box for that long that maybe oil and greases got old too. I read somewhere that the Lionel grease may harden up over time, but regardless if that's true or not, I didn't see that in my train. Although, what I can't see is any of the oil or grease breakdown (if that happens) as it sat in a box since 2020 or 2016 or however long. - Yes, it does give the impression that the problem is from the gears though. As a NEWBIE inexperience person starting out, I didn't notice any odd sound, like this,  when I put it on the track. I was just a guy experiencing a new (but old) train with stuff I've not seen in trains (in person) before. As a few weeks went on I started paying more attention to the sounds and what I don't know is if this is a gear problem, did I mess up the gears? I put about 7 additional cars, plus  the ones that came with the set onto the consist (making about 12 in total). I didn't read the ONE sentence in the manual that only a few cars can be added until later. (Train store said 15 should even be fine, while Lionel support gave multiple answers). As a newbie, I figured if the train can pull it, then all was fine - and it did. - I'll try adding some Labelle 106 grease to the shaft (from Bill's response), even though Bill suggested silicone plumber's grease. I don't have that grease at this time.

Thanks.

@Mike Zoppa posted:

Hi RickO,

When you said, "Granted that loco is several years old." - It is, but it isn't. It's new out of the box, but yes it's from 2016 and maybe because it's been in the box for that long that maybe oil and greases got old too. I read somewhere that the Lionel grease may harden up over time, but regardless if that's true or not, I didn't see that in my train. Although, what I can't see is any of the oil or grease breakdown (if that happens) as it sat in a box since 2020 or 2016 or however long. - Yes, it does give the impression that the problem is from the gears though. As a NEWBIE inexperience person starting out, I didn't notice any odd sound, like this,  when I put it on the track. I was just a guy experiencing a new (but old) train with stuff I've not seen in trains (in person) before. As a few weeks went on I started paying more attention to the sounds and what I don't know is if this is a gear problem, did I mess up the gears? I put about 7 additional cars, plus  the ones that came with the set onto the consist (making about 12 in total). I didn't read the ONE sentence in the manual that only a few cars can be added until later. (Train store said 15 should even be fine, while Lionel support gave multiple answers). As a newbie, I figured if the train can pull it, then all was fine - and it did. - I'll try adding some Labelle 106 grease to the shaft (from Bill's response), even though Bill suggested silicone plumber's grease. I don't have that grease at this time.

Thanks.

It’s almost 8 years old, so take the new out of the equation, as I mentioned on another thread, Father Time don’t care, age is age, …..

Your Labelle grease is absolutely fine, ……use what you have, no need for a special trip to buy products you don’t have, …if the grease doesn’t solve your problem, I highly doubt a different brand of grease will perform a miracle …..

the way you imbedded your videos won’t let me watch them on ye old antique I pad, …which was new in 2010, but is now 13 years old, …..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

It’s almost 8 years old, so take the new out of the equation, as I mentioned on another thread, Father Time don’t care, age is age, …..

Your Labelle grease is absolutely fine, ……use what you have, no need for a special trip to buy products you don’t have, …if the grease doesn’t solve your problem, I highly doubt a different brand of grease will perform a miracle …..

the way you imbedded your videos won’t let me watch them on ye old antique I pad, …which was new in 2010, but is now 13 years old, …..

Pat

Ok. I'll try the Labelle 106 grease - thanks. I added audio only and smaller mp4 files to that folder. I'll do this in the future too. I think you should be able to view the mp4 files, but I found that if listen to the IMG-5430.mp3 file without video, that I can pickup the culprit sound. It's quieter, but it's noticeable and when I run the train at normal speeds in the last IMG-5432 video, it gets loud enough to be a nuisance and it makes me want to pull my hair out and try to fix it (but that's just me - I'm a bit of a picky person that way).

Thanks Again.

Mike

@Mike Zoppa posted:

Silicone plumber's grease? - Could I use the labelle 106 grease? I would need to buy some plumber's grease, but I have a little bit of the 106 left over from added that to the other side where the gears are.

Put the grease on this metal shaft, right?

Thanks.

The Labelle 106 will work; the reason I recommend the plumber's silicone grease is that silicone is the best lubricant for plastic to metal sliding friction. And, don't ever use the silicone for metal to metal applications, especially gears.

That's exactly the right place for the grease. In addition to turning the flywheel by hand, move it up and down gently a few times, too, after you've applied the grease.

@Bill Swatos posted:

The Labelle 106 will work; the reason I recommend the plumber's silicone grease is that silicone is the best lubricant for plastic to metal sliding friction. And, don't ever use the silicone for metal to metal applications, especially gears.

That's exactly the right place for the grease. In addition to turning the flywheel by hand, move it up and down gently a few times, too, after you've applied the grease.

From this and other stuff I tried, plus working in the lubricant and grease by running it a lot today, I can now say that this issue has been fixed. Thanks to all for all of your input and helpful advice. It's a lesson that I won't forget about buying an old train, regardless if it's new in the box and learning how Lionel isn't as helpful compared to the people in the OGRFORUM. Once again, a big thanks to all. I'm not going to attempt to working on the reverse chuff skip issue. It could be an issue where the more I use it, the less likely it may skip. But, I'm now set and I will try to add stuff to my layout when I can afford it. I do want to avoid cheap looking things, except I'm really horrible as building stuff myself. I'm not into the model train realism thing unless it can take my mind away from the real world. I think this like other things I'm into are forms of escapism. I'm all for realism if it takes me back into the olden days where things were simple and computers didn't exist, but to simulate modern day isn't my thing when I see modern day stuff everyday.

- Anyway. Thanks Again.

Result! ……glad it’s fixed and back on the rails earning revenue ,……

Pat

Glad we were able to solve Mike's problem here! For future reference, here's the plumber's silicone grease I use along with a couple of "applicators." It's available at Lowe's or HD for about $4:

I use this for the tail bearing on all my nylon bell can motors. It's also great for gearboxes with plastic gears. It dramatically reduces worm wheel wear when you have a bronze worm meshing with a plastic worm wheel. Again, DO NOT USE with all metal gear gearboxes; then Lucas Tacky Red, Labelle and other petroleum greases are called for.