My little experience with tinplate motors is mostly Marx, but a friend gave me his childhood Lionel 1062.  It ran, but needed oil badly.

To get to the motor's oil-wick, I had to use a hammer and nail to tap out the long pin that holds the body on the motor/chassis. 

Now the wheels and gears are locked up solid. Tapping out the body-pin had somehow also moved the axis pin for the small reduction-gear inward, apparently blocking the armature or commutator. Its end had been flush with the chassis's surface, but now I can see it down in the hole.

- Anybody have any tips for getting it back where it belongs?

- Failing that, what's the safest way of pulling the drivers (without a wheel puller) and getting inside the motor casing to drive the axis pin back through to the outside?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'd hate to have to trash the loco; it, and the rest of the set, are in beautiful condition. Not to mention the sentimental value.

-- D

Original Post

You will need a wheel puller, period. These plastic-cased locomotives are not the easiest to service, and the case will crack if you try to remove the wheels any other way. You also need a press and proper wheel cups to reinstall the wheels. I know some will say you can do it without the proper tools, but once you break a case, you're finished. 

See here for a view of the internals of the motor.

The motors are also a nightmare to reassemble all the internal parts properly and get everything lined up to put the case halves together.

You will need the proper tools and lots of patience to work on these Scout locos. When you have them, give it a go.

 

Larry

Yow.

Thanks, TrainLarry. Not what I wanted to hear, but maybe what I needed.

So you can't just put the driver over a hole in a 1x4 and drive the axle out with a drift punch and hammer, or a nail in a drill press???

Where do I get "proper wheel cups"?

If I just buy a replacement loco for the motor unit, is this problem likely to happen again? Is it a common occurrence that tapping out the body pin also shifts the gear's axle-pin, or did I just get a rare defective example?  

It looks like I posted this question in the wrong forum. I'm brand new to OGR.

When I saw TINPLATE in the FORUMS list, I took it in the broad sense - underscale toy trains (of any construction) on folded track. Now I see there's a separate HI-RAIL, 027 AND TRADITIONAL 3-RAIL O GAUGE forum. I'm guessing a plastic-loco question belongs in that forum.

I apologize. Please forgive the noob mistake.

-- D

I think the stud was already a little looser than most. The shell pin doesn't make contact with anything but frame and shell.

FYI there are different versions of the bakelight motors too. They ARE a juggling act to reassemble. Performance isnt too bad, but pulling more than a few lighter cars can wear them out fast. Brushes may need to be held in place via string or paper to be puled out after assembly.  It can be done though 😉

Note if it has reverse ,the field position moves mechanically in relationship to the armature to activate reverse. (normally the field coils sweet spot is "moved" via wire changes; quite a different approach)

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





Maybe you can punch out the axle as you state, but you will be putting stress on the brittle Bakelite case, risking cracking it.

My philosophy as a technician has always been 'The Proper Tool For The Job'. Costs  money, yes, but you can't put a price on time and aggravation endured for not having them.

 

Larry

Adriatic posted:

I think the stud was already a little looser than most. The shell pin doesn't make contact with anything but frame and shell.

 

Hi, Adriatic. I didn't think the shell pin moved the gear axle. I assume it was the repeated impact of hammering it out. But even that is a bit mysterious - the axle has so little mass that you'd think even a tiny bit of friction would hold it in place. It must have been just sitting loose in there.

Unfortunately the tapping (and rapping, and solid thunking) on the case that I've done in the other direction does not move it back outward.

Thank you for the other advice, especially holding the brushes in place. If I decide to try to take it apart and reassemble (which is looking less and less probable), I'm certain that will come in handy.

-- D

 

TrainLarry posted:

My philosophy as a technician has always been 'The Proper Tool For The Job'. Costs  money, yes, but you can't put a price on time and aggravation endured for not having them.

 

Larry, I truly respect that, but I'm not a technician, nor even a dedicated restoration hobbyist, just a retired guy who occasionally futzed around with Marx tin until a poorly-designed Lionel fell into his lap. As a retiree with more time than income, I can put a price on time and aggravation and I'm afraid it doesn't even approach the price of a specialized press and wheel cups. Buying 300-plus dollars worth of tools to fix a $30 locomotive that I got free is not in the cards. As a mechanical duffer, my philosophy is that of my friend Chuck - "it's already broken, so what are you worried about?"

Thanks so much for the honest and knowledgeable advice. I may give it a try with hand tools, or find a replacement motor unit, or more likely, just put it back in the set box with a note to the next owner about its condition.

-- D

SORRY, but those "Scout" motors are NOT worth the effort in my book. Get a reliable 2037 or a 2020 and 86 the "Scout". Even the cheaper prewar Lionel "Winner" trains were higher quality than those junk "Scouts"! As you probably already know, ANY MARX loco is a higher quality and more reliable than those embarrassing "Scouts"!

vita sine litteris mors est  (Seneca)

I recently serviced one of these motors for the first time, so here are some pointers from someone not much more experienced than you:

First, see if you can get between the reduction gear and the motor frame with some tweezers... you might be able to lever the stud back out of whatever hole it has fallen into. Then glue it in place.

If you have to get inside the motor, you should get a wheel-puller. A wheel-puller is one of those things you will find reasons to use if you have one, so I would get something good. Portline has one for $50 here: http://www.portlines.com/tools2.htm. Or you can go cheap and get one that's made from a battery terminal puller (look on ebay).

These motors are famously hard to put together, but the service manual pages give detailed instructions. What I did, when taking the motor apart for the first time, was to follow the assembly instructions in reverse. Each time I removed a part, I immediately practiced putting it back in again, to make sure I understood how it fit, and that I could still close the shell up after installing it. This was especially important with the pawl assembly. Doing this saved me all kinds of frustration later, and I got the motor back together successfully on the first try.

No need for wheel cups. Tolerances are so loose on these motors to begin with that using special wheel cups for this motor truly is putting lipstick on a pig. ... When you go to put the wheels back on, just use a vice with jaws that are reasonably square to each other. There is no rod connecting the front and rear drivers, so you don't have to worry about quartering.

You will probably not be able to get 100% reliable reverse unit operation, so don't pull your hair out trying. Your friend probably just wants it to work, not to be perfect.

These are just not great motors. Lionel was trying to make a price point, and they were never going to put the time and money into finishing each part to the point that it operated flawlessly. To make matters more frustrating, it's difficult to troubleshoot since the black plastic shell prevents you from seeing what is going on inside. Yet, some extremely clever engineering went into these things, and I have nothing but respect for whoever thought this motor up and made it work. Personally, I enjoyed tinkering with it and learning what makes it tick.

FWIW

Thank you so much, NICKAIX. Your suggestions for first-time disassembly/reassembly are great. All of a sudden, the project looks like it might be feasible for me. My memory is so bad, I might help it along by taking photos or video of each step.

You said "follow the assembly instructions in reverse." Is there a link where I can find the assembly instructions for a 1062?

I  cannot get even my finest needlepoint tweezers into the space. The best I can do is a knife blade. I made a hooked tool out of .035 steel music wire that I can move the axle and its gear around with, but so far, no way to grasp or lever it back into the hole. It would certainly be great if I could.

-- D

A wheel puller is basically a gear puller, and very useful. Sometimes a faucet puller works if the wheel isn't too tight, but if you buy, buy a good puller. (gramps had 3-4 slightly different for different engines)

Wheel cups are needed on some wheels to keep it flat while pressing on axles.

Hardwood with holes or hardwood cups are the backyard version.

A careful person can press many wheels axles with less than "proper tools". (vice, drillpress, etc).... know your limits 😉

Quartering is pretty easy when there are axle splines, no splines present and wheel cups become vital.

Don't necessarily pay more for a 2037 w/magnetraction unless it's real fresh. You can't get the replacement gear/bush parts for proper rebuilds and have to use non-magnetraction parts from a 2025/etc. anyhow (same train, no magnetraction).   

Worst case...

I'm thinking you could make an open frame of breadboard and standoffs, swap most parts in, add rollers and have a running motor. (if you ever saw some turn of the century electric motors you know how "raw" the design can be and still work well)

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





Tanglewood49 posted:

You said "follow the assembly instructions in reverse." Is there a link where I can find the assembly instructions for a 1062?

Olsen's has service manual pages for Lionel steam here: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd2a.htm

Look under no. 1001 for the complete breakdown of the scout motor, with assembly instructions. The 1001 is the original version - the motor was changed over time, but not radically. Your loco may also have the added "motor ground strip" shown under no. 1110. The drawings posted above for the 1060 are not accurate for the 1062, as the 1060 does not have a reverse mechanism in it.

Oh, and where the instructions say that the pawl should be leaned to the left, they mean well to the left. It is possible to get it back together with the pawl slightly to the right, but it won't actually work that way. When putting it back together, you will find that the brass strips are a pretty tight fit, but the rest of the parts should not have to be forced.

Gee whiz!  I would STRONGLY consider replacing the whole motor/chassis with one from a Lionel 18713 or similar.  That's MUCH easier than what you're proposing, and would yield better results. 

I would probably paint the driving wheels (and especially those cheap aluminim rims!) a dark grey to match the original appearance.  (You could probably slide a grooved piece of paper or cardboard behind the wheels to keep paint off of the chassis.)  Add a little weight to the top of the L-shaped metal plate between the steam chests, and you would have the best running 1062 on the planet!  Think about it!

Creep, coast, and pull.  We're not talking about cold fusion here.

Tanglewood49 posted:

I'm planning on getting a Robert Grossman wheel puller for $20 plus shpg from eBay. It was originally advertised as being for Marx locos (Grossman is a Marx parts source). Is there any reason it wouldn't work on Lionel as well?

Probably it will work, as long as the pin is not too large. The Scout axles I have seen are .150" (not quite 5/32"). Not being a Marx guy, I don't know how that compares to Marx.

A problem I ran into with this puller is that, when the jaws are closed, the angle on the outside of the jaw can prevent you from getting the jaw all the way under the wheel. I tried pulling a wheel anyway and broke the wheel flange. You can probably rectify this by doing some grinding on the puller to knock down those "elbows". By the same token, you will want to make sure that the inside of the jaws is flat, so the wheel is not resting on a single point when you pull. I like the $50 Portline puller because it comes to you with jaws that are already thin, flat, and very strong. Also, because of the way it is made, the jaw geometry does not change when the diameter of the wheel you are pulling changes. But if you have a grinder, or at least a dremel, you can probably make the Grossman puller do what you need it to do.

Nick -

Heartfelt thanks for taking the time to give me thorough practical advice and for steering me to those service instructions. Without those it would have been a disaster. It may still be, but I'll get closer. 

The Marx axles are 0.134", so at least I'm catching a break there; I won't have to turn down the wheel-puller's pin. I looked at those elbow lumps on the Grossman's puller when I first saw the pic, and wondered if they could get into a tight place.

-- D

 

Tinplate Art, Ted S, and Jim Waterman -

You're probably right that the Scout mechanism is not worth the effort and expense to fix, and an upgrade/replacement is easiest. But my friend gave me his old train when he moved away a few years ago, and I'd like to get it running if I can, not a different one. 

Tanglewood49 posted:

Nick -

Heartfelt thanks for taking the time to give me thorough practical advice and for steering me to those service instructions. Without those it would have been a disaster. It may still be, but I'll get closer. 

The Marx axles are 0.134", so at least I'm catching a break there; I won't have to turn down the wheel-puller's pin. I looked at those elbow lumps on the Grossman's puller when I first saw the pic, and wondered if they could get into a tight place.

-- D

 

You're welcome! Be sure to let us know how it goes.

And also take a look at the drawings for the no. 233. Probably, that is the closest version to your motor.

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