Lionel 3751 smoke issue - can't turn off heater in command

sounds like the smoke heating element FET might be shorted so power is on all the time. might need to repair or replace board. FET'S ARE REPLAEABLE IF YOU KNOW HOW TO SOLDER .

have you tried running in conventional and see if heater is shut off that would prove if you have board issue.

Suddenly the same behavior in my GS-2 same exact era......what are the chances???

Alan Mancus posted:

sounds like the smoke heating element FET might be shorted so power is on all the time. might need to repair or replace board. FET'S ARE REPLAEABLE IF YOU KNOW HOW TO SOLDER .

have you tried running in conventional and see if heater is shut off that would prove if you have board issue.

I ran in conventional and it smokes as it should puffs and does a good job every chuff (normal for tmcc in conventional mode). It's command that gets weird.

did you try a reset of engines? are you able to shut off the heater in conventional?

Actually, the intermittent operation suggests you are running a locomotive that has the smoke voltage regulator.  Those are a frequent failure item.  What's the EXACT Lionel product number for your locomotive?

For the Lionel 6-38055 Santa Fe TMCC Scale 4-8-4 Northern #3751, the suspect part is this one.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

For the Lionel 6-38055 Santa Fe TMCC Scale 4-8-4 Northern #3751, the suspect part is this one.

Thank you so much! Does this part fix the same issue in the same era's GS-2 Daylight? From 2004

I just opened these brand new old stock purchases. Both the daylight and Northern have the same chuff sound and are Scale.

Well, the actual Lionel stock number for the GS-2 would be useful as well.  If it's the Lionel 6-38079 Southern Pacific "Daylight' TMCC Scale 4-8-4 GS-2 #4410, it's AC regulator is this part.

You make it a lot harder than it needs to be to help you by not specifying the actual model of what you have, so we frequently end up guessing.

Let me be clear.  The regulator is usually the cause when the smoke control is flaky, or you get really out of control smoke.  If the triac shorts on one of these, you'll get amazing smoke for about 20 seconds and then the smoke unit PCB is consumed and you need a new one as well as the regulator.  Many times, these regulators just get cranky and either refuse to control the smoke or will only work hot or cold.

As far as any FET that was previously mentoned, there are no FETs in the mix, the controllers use a triac to control the smoke.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the actual Lionel stock number for the GS-2 would be useful as well.  If it's the Lionel 6-38079 Southern Pacific "Daylight' TMCC Scale 4-8-4 GS-2 #4410, it's AC regulator is this part.

You make it a lot harder than it needs to be to help you by not specifying the actual model of what you have, so we frequently end up guessing.

 

Let me be clear.  The regulator is usually the cause when the smoke control is flaky, or you get really out of control smoke.  If the triac shorts on one of these, you'll get amazing smoke for about 20 seconds and then the smoke unit PCB is consumed and you need a new one as well as the regulator.  Many times, these regulators just get cranky and either refuse to control the smoke or will only work hot or cold.

As far as any FET that was previously mentoned, there are no FETs in the mix, the controllers use a triac to control the smoke.

John thank you for the help - those are the exact engines I have. I can't reach the boxes at the moment which is why I didn't have item numbers, but you guessed correct for both. My apologies. . These are gorgeous Korean models that I know were both redone in Legacy but I prefer these builds over China builds. They are wonderful aside from this problem.

This info is extremely helpful as I am usually an MTH guy and just started giving some periods of Lionel a try (mostly Korean Scale stuff made from 1990-1992 Mike Wolf, 2003-2005 pre Legacy)

So if I was to get the superchuffer for both models (as opposed to the parts above) would this eliminate the issues and give me both better smoke, constant fan smoke at idle (like MTH), and selectable chuff rate? Would it be an easy plug in install or require some skilled soldering and rewiring inside?

You need the smoke unit producing smoke properly, the Super-Chuffer controls the fan to enable better appearing smoke performance.  If these are bad, you still need the regulators.

In order to have a programmable chuff rate and smoke at idle, Rule-17 LED headlight, automatic cab light control, you'd need both the Super-Chuffer and the Chuff-Generator.  The Super-Chuffer does the smoke fan control, Rule-17 lighting, and automatic cab light control.  The Chuff-Generator gives you programmable chuff rates and optionally it will control ground lights.

Both products do require internal installation and wiring.  Soldering is most certainly required, and you also have to be familiar with the exiting wiring as you'll be modifying some of it.

Super-Chuffer

Chuff-Generator

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You need the smoke unit producing smoke properly, the Super-Chuffer controls the fan to enable better appearing smoke performance.  If these are bad, you still need the regulators.

In order to have a programmable chuff rate and smoke at idle, Rule-17 LED headlight, automatic cab light control, you'd need both the Super-Chuffer and the Chuff-Generator.  The Super-Chuffer does the smoke fan control, Rule-17 lighting, and automatic cab light control.  The Chuff-Generator gives you programmable chuff rates and optionally it will control ground lights.

Both products do require internal installation and wiring.  Soldering is most certainly required, and you also have to be familiar with the exiting wiring as you'll be modifying some of it.

Super-Chuffer

  

Chuff-Generator

Thank you. Can I keep the existing lighting as-is and add these strictly to enhance smoke, add chuff rate option, and idle smoke? ...or do I have to redo the lights when I do this for the Rule 17 thing?

You don't need to use the lighting options, they are options.  If you want the Rule-17 lighting, you do have to do the additional wiring.  Same thing with the cab light control.

@Gunnrunnerjohn I'm having similar issues to what is described in this old thread with my legacy mikado lionel 6-11286. The smoke element will not shut off no matter what (neither by switch or by command) but the fan does shut off.  Also the element runs super hot at all times regardless.  I replaced the switch, smoke unit pcb board, element, and fan motor..... but the problem persists. The element is still running way too hot and won't deactivate under any circumstances

Sorry should have quoted.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

@Gunnrunnerjohn I'm having similar issues to what is described in this old thread with my legacy mikado lionel 6-11286. The smoke element will not shut off no matter what (neither by switch or by command) but the fan does shut off.  Also the element runs super hot at all times regardless.  I replaced the switch, smoke unit pcb board, element, and fan motor..... but the problem persists. The element is still running way too hot and won't deactivate under any circumstances

Well, then it's most likely your RCMC since that is what controls the smoke heater. Technically you might be able to replace the dual FET IC but I don't know if that is something everyone can solder that small and fine pitch. Example topic of that repair https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...acy-rcmc-motherboard

Parts listing at Lionel.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...Only-2302-6101286001

If you just replace the entire board, that should fix it.

Direct part link at Lionel https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-USRA-MIKADO-6-11286

Again, you sadly replaced the wrong parts ( the switch, smoke unit pcb board, element, and fan motor) because they do not control the smoke heater- the RCMC does that.