Lionel 4-6-4 Hudson Smoke Resistor Problem

Erica Ann,

Welcome to the OGR, the guy you want to Talk with is GunRunnerJohn, he has some of the coolest Chuffer & Smoke Unit on the market today.

Calling Guns the lady needs your professional help!

PCRR/Dave

Hello ERICAANN,

welcome to the forum 

well, the manual for this loco states;

"An idle locomotive will not smoke; press AUX1 and 9 (press for a maximum of 10 seconds) to engage the smoke generator at idle/in neutral. When the smoke unit is on always keep a small amount of smoke fluid in the Locomotive’s smoke generator; the generator’s element can become damaged if operated without fluid. Smoke production is greater at higher voltages and when the Locomotive is pulling a heavy load or long consist."

It's possible the smoke unit has sustained a little damage from the previous owner leaving it on without smoke fluid in it.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I had the same thought about damage from the previous owner. The original wick was very dark around the resistor and the sleeve was pretty toasted. That's why I removed the sleeve and replaced the wick material.

I was going to replace the resistor with a either ceramic coated 25 Ohm or 22 Ohm, 3 watt resistor to increase the smoke output as noted in the many other threads, but was wondering if there might be a problem with the triac that controls that smoke unit on the circuit board that's causing what seems like excessive voltage going to the resistor.

Hi Erica, sounds like you did the right things.  Did you clean out the small air hole in the chamber and not cover it over with the new wicking? Also what material did you use for the wicking?

Hi CCA,

Made sure the two air holes were clean and the piston was free and moving up and down as it should. Spring on the piston is in place. I used pink fiberglass insulation that I cut to size to fit the interior of the smoke unit. Made sure the new wick did not block either one of the air holes.

Welcome Erica Ann,  When you press aux-1 and 9 and  hold it that puts full track power to the smoke unit. Are you saying your just turning the smoke on and the resistor is getting is getting that hot? Do you have a meter?

Doug

Hi Doug,

I have found to turn on the smoke unit requires about a one second hold down of the 9 button using the AUX-1+9 command. Anything longer than that and the resistor begins to glow red even with 4-6 drops of smoke fluid in it.

Yes I do have a meter.

Welcome aboard Erica Ann!!!!

Thank you CHESSIE1971. I appreciate it!

If I'm not mistaken from reading a post by Gun Runner John, I believe the smoke unit should be receiving 9 volts coming from the board when running at 18 volt track power. Could someone confirm this?

Hi Erica Ann welcome to the forum and good luck fixing you engine !

Alan

Lionel made many Hudson locomotives.  It is always a good idea to throw out the product number first.  Welcome to the Forum.

From Erica Ann's initial post;

"my recently purchased Lionel 6-28007, 4-6-4 Hudson."

The product number was provided.

 Welcome to the forum Erica Ann.

Hi.....you are correct.  About 9-12 volts ( depending on where your transformer track voltage is set) the smoke unit when running under TMCC control. When you push #9 this is the on, and smoke boost.  This gives the smoke unit full track voltage while pressed. Only use in short intervals or will overheat the resistor.

Since the smoke unit boost works, I doubt the triac is bad, sounds like replacing the smoke resistor would be a good first step.  I like a 22 ohm for that unit, and I'd suggest gently knocking the ceramic coating off the resistor with a Dremel wire wheel, you'll get better smoke performance.

Thanks for the help guys.

I have ordered both 22 & 25 Ohm, 3 watt ceramic coated wire wound resistors. I'm going to give both a try, but have a feeling the 22 Ohm one is the "hot" setup for this smoke unit. I'll let you know.

I know from reading GUNRUNNERJOHN's past posts on the topic that the 22 OHM resistor shouldn't put too much stress on the triac.

Greg, understood.  It is always good to see a new member that knows enough to do that.  That was an observation of how she presented a good post.  As I stated, Lionel made many Hudson locomotives.  Not everyone gives information (product number) to work with.  She made a smart move by following GRJ.

Erica Ann

Ive heard of some success using pink insulation in the smoke unit but think you might be better off using either MTH or Lionel  wicking material

Welcome to the forum

Hi Steve,

I've used the pink insulation in several locomotives based on the recommendation of my local Lionel repair tech at America's Best Hobby & Trains. Joey is very good at what he does and it seems to work well and it's cheap!

In case anyone's interested, this is my 4-6-4 Hudson after undergoing a complete new paint job and new decals.

The pink fiberglass works OK, but it tends to char quicker than the real wick material.  That just means you have to replace it more often to keep up good smoke performance.

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

What do you recommend for wick material? I believe I've read somewhere in your past posts that you use tiki touch wick material?  Is that correct?

I have tried it in the past, but I've had variable results, apparently the quality and/or characteristics change over time and brands.  I am using real MTH and Lionel wick nowadays.

GRJ,

Do you have a preference for either of those wicks?  How's the move going? You all moved yet?

Erica Ann,

Welcome to the OGR Forum!  As you see, this is THE place to find the answers to O gauge trains and a lot more!  I am amazed at how quickly guys like John and Marty and our other experts answer questions here.  You would think this is all they had to do!  

I have met both in person, along with many others here, and they are really a great bunch!

Oh, I almost forgot, that is a really handsome Hudson you have!! 

rtr12 posted:

GRJ,

Do you have a preference for either of those wicks?  How's the move going? You all moved yet?

I use the MTH wicks in MTH smoke units as they're ideal for clamping between the two resistors.  For Lionel or other single resistor smoke units, I use the shredded Lionel wick.

Always on the lookout for good material for wicks, I stumbled across this.

1/8 Fiberglass Tiki Torch Wick, $7.95 eBay: 222306162516

It's virtually identical to MTH wick, and so far in my tests, performs as well too.  If you're looking to test an alternative, it's a pretty good gamble.   It's basic all 1/10 the price of buying the MTH or Lionel wick.

I don’t think a red orange glowing resister is common while running. If the new wicking material gets burned rather fast then you may have a problem in that the unit is always receiving full voltage.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

rtr12 posted:

GRJ,

Do you have a preference for either of those wicks?  How's the move going? You all moved yet?

I use the MTH wicks in MTH smoke units as they're ideal for clamping between the two resistors.  For Lionel or other single resistor smoke units, I use the shredded Lionel wick.

Always on the lookout for good material for wicks, I stumbled across this.

1/8 Fiberglass Tiki Torch Wick, $7.95 eBay: 222306162516

It's virtually identical to MTH wick, and so far in my tests, performs as well too.  If you're looking to test an alternative, it's a pretty good gamble.   It's basic all 1/10 the price of buying the MTH or Lionel wick.

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

How would you use this type of wick material in a Lionel puffer or piston driven unit that has a bowl shaped chamber for the wick? Do you shred it up and stuff it in the chamber?

Yes. You break it apart. Depending upon the size of the unit you may even want to cut it in half.

Welcome aboard.  It is so neat to have a gal in our hobby. Wishing you many happy hours.

I don't use it in the Lionel smoke units, but it's a perfect match for the MTH smoke units.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help in this matter.

Installed a 22 OHM, 3 watt ceramic coated wire wound resistor in the smoke unit last night along with new wicking. My Hudson now smokes very nicely without any type of boost to the smoke unit from the CAB-1 remote. Really, it's just about perfect. Lots of smoke but not so much that it runs you out of the room after 10 minutes of operation.

But, there was a down side that I now need to address. Right in the middle of my testing, the reverse light on my tender stopped working. I know it's not the bulb itself as that was replaced during my renovation of the unit, so I'm going to have to dig into this problem to see what happened.

Accidentally hit AUX2? If you replaced the bulb, it wasn't too low voltage that it flashed the bulb?

Chuck Sartor posted:

Accidentally hit AUX2? If you replaced the bulb, it wasn't too low voltage that it flashed the bulb?

That's interesting. I may have done that by accident. But I did do a reset on the board this morning using the ENG+34+SET+ENG+34+AUX1+34 while in program mode. Reset the engine number and still no response from the light.

The light had been working just fine prior to last night during my test run of new smoke resistor. One weird thing that did happen during testing is that the sound cut out and wouldn't come back on until I cycled the power going to the track.  Sound system began to work again but not the backup light.

Need some help here gentlemen. I traced the wiring within the locomotive using Lionel's wiring schematic, copy attached.

It would appear that the reverse light in the tender gets it power through the yellow wire that goes into the harness. When I touch my test probes to the wire enter point on the board that attaches to the harness (red to the terminal, black to ground) I'm not getting any power to the terminal. I checked to see that all of the wiring jacks were tight to all of the boards and for any broken or pinched wires and everything looks good. Any ideas as to what the problem may be?

Do you have continuity from the plug all the way to the bulb socket?  FWIW, if the reverse light triac on the R2LC doesn't see a resistive load, it won't fire.  Try connecting a bulb directly across that socket connection to frame ground and see what you get?

Bad tender tether? If not that about the only thing left is the radio board.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Do you have continuity from the plug all the way to the bulb socket?  FWIW, if the reverse light triac on the R2LC doesn't see a resistive load, it won't fire.  Try connecting a bulb directly across that socket connection to frame ground and see what you get?

Gunrunnerjohn,

Tried connecting a bulb as suggested. Nothing! No light, not even a flicker.

Tried testing the output with my meter and nothing. Don't know if the meter would impose enough load on the triac to cause it to fire.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Bad tender tether? If not that about the only thing left is the radio board.

Might be, but the other functions like the electro coupler still fires. It appears I'm not getting power to the connection point of the tether at the locomotive.

Going to wait to see what GRJ has to say, but it's looking like it could be the triac on the R2LC08 board. If I elect to replace the board in lieu of repairing it, do you know if the newer R4LC08 board sold by ERR will work as a direct replacement?

It should work fine for a R2LC replacement.

Chuck is right, I'd try a new R2LC at this point.  Sounds like the triac has taken a walk.