LIONEL 6-11127 - LOST PUFFING FAN WHILE RUNNING

It's interesting that it has an analog smoke unit and no output for fan control.  Truthfully, I don't see how this particular model controls the smoke fan.

I have a special version of my Super-Chuffer II for early Legacy locomotives, I put one in my Legacy C&O 10-wheeler from the same timeframe.  My 10-wheeler had a special fan control board that managed the fan, it just did it poorly.

I think I'd have to see that one to figure out what was driving the smoke fan chuff.

While it states analog, it seems to have circuitry on the smoke unit and it has a cherry switch and smoke harness integrated on the parts diagram.  G

There's no mystery where the chuff signal comes from, but other early Legacy locomotives had a smoke fan controller board to manage the smoke motor.  I don't have that particular smoke unit in stock, so I can't see if it has the microprocessor on it, typically they call those a "smart" smoke unit.

This is what I was expecting to find with an analog smoke unit.

The picture on the web show similar components though you can't see all of them, and the integrated harness indicates a separate drive wire for the fan.  Hence my call that it does have a system.  It really is hard to believe Lionel could not come to one simple system to generate puff with chuff.  G

I'm pretty sure all of the oddball schemes were because of MTH patents on generating smoke chuffs with a microprocessor.  Obviously, something changed around 2011 when the RCMC came out as the chuff switch disappeared and the smoke fan control is now done by the RCMC.

If there was anything to replace it would be the smoke unit PCB PN : 691SSMUK02

Find that HERE

GRJ’s Super-Chuffer is also a exlent option.

If you want the PCB is not that complicated just a 556 timer and a couple of other components that could’ve gone bad

@GGG posted:

The picture on the web show similar components though you can't see all of them, and the integrated harness indicates a separate drive wire for the fan.  Hence my call that it does have a system.  It really is hard to believe Lionel could not come to one simple system to generate puff with chuff.  G

Some of us have used the simplest and most obvious solution, just use two micro switches on the cam. One for chuff and the other to the fan motor. About as simple as it gets and no added circuitry required.

Pete

However, the Super-Chuffer gives you smoke at idle, better looking chuffs, not to mention the Rule-17 LED headlight option.

John, this was simply a reply to George who like me and many others are miffed that Lionel couldn’t find simple low cost solution. Two micro switches wholesale for 50 cents. I am not aware of any other solution that is even remotely close to that price.

Two switches and 4 lobe cam. No smart regulators, no semi smart regulators, no micro controllers counting motor tach pulses. Zero, zip, nada. K.I.S.S.  Lionel could have done the same thing.

Pete

My beef with micro switches is they put enough drag on the locomotives motor that at low speeds often you can see the locomotive surge with each revolution of the wheel.  On my early conversions to TMCC I used a reed switch and magnets to switch a 3v DPDT relay one pole for fan one pole for chuff. Later I switched to an optical reader and four dots of white paint ,or white tape, on the inside of the drive wheel. The size of the white dot determines the length of the chuff/ puff.  It's my "Not So Super Chuffer" but works flawless and is quite simple.          j

@JohnActon posted:

My beef with micro switches is they put enough drag on the locomotives motor that at low speeds often you can see the locomotive surge with each revolution of the wheel.  On my early conversions to TMCC I used a reed switch and magnets to switch a 3v DPDT relay one pole for fan one pole for chuff. Later I switched to an optical reader and four dots of white paint ,or white tape, on the inside of the drive wheel. The size of the white dot determines the length of the chuff/ puff.  It's my "Not So Super Chuffer" but works flawless and is quite simple.          j

What optical reader do you use and where do you get it?? This sounds cost effective and doable. Thanks!

So far I have only done one engine with two micro switches. Usually I use a single micro switch driving a DPDT reed relay to split the signals between chuff and fan motor. Space in the frame for a wider cam determines if two switches will work. I have also done a few engines with optical detection. First used round dots, the second lines as I wanted the fan on time to be short. All upgrades were done with Pittman motor engines. Switch drag is imperceptible. With optical devices the circuit is trivial but it takes time to fabricate a mount for the detector.

Pete

Spoke with Mike Reagan on the phone. He suggested checking continuity between pin #24 (or the one completely opposite of the square soldered pin) on the R4LC and the white or black wires running to the smoke unit PCB (wires #3: black or #4: white) next to the AC in. He was going entirely off memory with me over the phone so I wasn’t expecting an bingo answer to the situation, but he did prove was a break in continuity between those two points.

I got no continuity either way. I tried jumping a wire from #24 to the white wire on the smoke PCB and here is what happened:

While in motion - 4 chuffs sound turned into 1 chuff per rev, smoke unit fan began spinning constantly.

So perhaps this suggests there is a break in the proper wire flow somewhere that leads to another board first, but jumping straight from pin 24 to the smoke unit PCB does not solve the problem, it does however prove a break in continuity somewhere in the original schematic.

He didn’t think the PCB on the smoker was bad, and it doesn’t look or smell bad, but I don’t know enough about this board to know for sure.

How about some pictures of the PCB and what chips are on the board.  It sounds like it has the chuff circuit on the smoke unit if it's getting serial data.

@Norton posted:

John, this was simply a reply to George who like me and many others are miffed that Lionel couldn’t find simple low cost solution. Two micro switches wholesale for 50 cents. I am not aware of any other solution that is even remotely close to that price.

Two switches and 4 lobe cam. No smart regulators, no semi smart regulators, no micro controllers counting motor tach pulses. Zero, zip, nada. K.I.S.S.  Lionel could have done the same thing.

Certainly true, 3rd Rail managed to use two microswitches, though they used them for switchable chuff rates.  I don't know why they didn't always have a 4-lobe cam, that was a mystery.

The killer was, in my early Legacy 10-wheeler, they used that  smoke logic board, surely that was more expensive.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

How about some pictures of the PCB and what chips are on the board.  It sounds like it has the chuff circuit on the smoke unit if it's getting serial data.

Certainly true, 3rd Rail managed to use two microswitches, though they used them for switchable chuff rates.  I don't know why they didn't always have a 4-lobe cam, that was a mystery.

The killer was, in my early Legacy 10-wheeler, they used that  smoke logic board, surely that was more expensive.

Best I could take.

@DdotCdot posted:

What optical reader do you use and where do you get it?? This sounds cost effective and doable. Thanks!

"RPR220 Reflective Opto Sensor Photoelectric Switch Sensor"     Search eBay.

I use this one.

https://www.mouser.com/Product...52BxSliHjOZsew%3D%3D

It has a Darlington output rated at 125ma and will drive a Siemens DPDT reed relay directly. The complete circuit consists of the detector, the relay and a 125 ohm resistor in the led path plus a 5V DC supply. Cost is less than 3 bucks.

Pete

Well, it said it was the analog smoke unit, but the actual smoke unit is the super-smoke with the chuff circuit on-board, mystery solved.

Are you saying the wrong smoke unit board was installed in this engine?

If so, would replacing this board / smoke unit fix the issue?

Thanks for the clarification.

just found this thread....

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c-big-boy-smoke-unit

it’s making me think I need to crack her open again and investigate the white wires at the cherry switch, as much as I dread opening the lower chassis of this monster again. It’s a nightmare the way the boards and wires are strung through. More updates later tomorrow. Need to step away for today.

I can't see why you'd dig into the chuff switch.  If the chuff sound is right, the switch is working.

I'm saying that the parts listing description doesn't match what is actually in the locomotive.   Actually, the fan control stuff is apparently needed for this particular model as there's nothing else to control the fan.

Since this smoke unit has four pins, my guess is the white wire goes to the chuff switch and not to serial data.  Here's a wiring diagram of a similar vintage locomotive with that smoke unit.  Looks to me that smoke unit doesn't take in serial data, but rather the output of the chuff switch.

I said it had that stuff, based on the picture vice description.  G

So....I fixed it.