Lionel 6-82768 C&O Allegheny #1604 returned from Lionel and doesn't run properly. What is wrong?

Here is the Second Video with the Odyssey Speed Control OFF.  The sound is different, like old Rail Sounds.

I am showing the Odyssey because the speed step "22" is consistent, like the engine was programmed to do this.  A loose Flywheel might affect the engine, but would it be consistent and precise?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Here is a Third Video of the 6-83768 C&O Allegheny #1604.  The video shows the full range of speed steps from 0 to 125 with the Odyssey Speed Control ON.

Does anyone have an idea why this engine serviced by Lionel is doing this?

My next engine will be the AC-12 Southern Pacific #4294 that came back from Lionel Service missing the front Pilot and coupler assembly.  It was on the engine when I sent it to Lionel.  I bought a replacement that arrived bent, so I bought the last AC-12 Pilot Lionel Parts had.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

It came back with a note that said "This is the best I could do." 

That is unacceptable and insulting. Lionel owes you a locomotive. 

I'd send it back with a note to shove it where the sun don't shine. They would have forever lost my business right then and there. 

When a locomotive under warranty falls into the "best that I could do " category it is time for a refund or replacement.

First off I think if I were you, I would change train companies.  I have yet to see you post a positive experience with Lionel.  While I don't doubt you have had issues, your experience with Lionel tells me that you are either a glutton for punishment or enjoy throwing away money.  My experience has been mostly positive across all companies.  Maybe I'm just lucky.

That being said, on my UP Big Boy, when they changed my RCMC board, I had to add a capacitor across the motor to eliminate noise issues that was causing erratic running starting at speedstep 22 through about speedstep 45.  Might be worth looking into.  It was a 4.7uf 50V bi-polar capacitor.

See this thread.

I suspect that's one that I'd have to see in person.  It is telling that the chuffs do not slow down with the speed, which suggests the flywheel is not slipping. However, given that the motor is apparently running faster and the locomotive is slowing down, that suggests to me something else is slipping.

Marty might be on to something, perhaps a 1uf 50V non-polarized cap across the motor would be an interesting thing to try, and it's a cheap and easy test.

MartyE,  You are right. I am a glutton for punishment.  I simply cannot believe that a company can produce so many engines with issues and stay in business.

I had always wanted to own a train store in retirement, and I purchased many ($200K) Lionel and Atlas O 3-rail engines as due diligence and the desire to see and run those engines which my local train store would not bring into his store. 

I talked with many of Lionel's top 20 dealers who advised me NOT to open a store.  (I realistically didn't have enough money.)  The idea of paying $15,000 monthly overhead for rent utilities. staff, advertising, etc. before the first sale brings in income was too high a mountain to climb.

I would not have the stomach to look customers in the eye when their new $1500 steam engine did not work.  Handing back their money would also be a miserable sales experience. This must be why many dealers only have test tracks, run a new engine back and forth, and never really are putting it to the test of extended operation.  Most of my articulated engines had pinched wire shorts and needed service. 

My new 1931260 Union Pacific Challenger #3985 is currently at Lionel Service because the Steam Generator Smoke stopped working and the engine shell is extremely HOT to the touch.  (as HOT as a clothes iron)  They are also adding the articulated sounds and Out-of-sync Drivers.  My Western Allegheny is also at Lionel at this time for a burned out CAB Light.  I am hoping they do a good job on these engines because I plan to share my experience on OGR Forum. 

I still don't know why my Lionel AC-12 Southern Pacific Cab Forward was returned to me missing the black painted Pilot (cow catcher) and scale coupler.  I bought a replacement that arrived bent, so I bought the very last AC-12 Pilot Assembly Lionel had.  It was better, but needs to be painted.  I hope I can match the shade of black.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

 I am a glutton for punishment.

Yep, you nailed it.

If the traction tires are checked it looks like the main controls board was damaged with the short do you know if the replaced it if not that's your problem 

MartyE posted:

......

That being said, on my UP Big Boy, when they changed my RCMC board, I had to add a capacitor across the motor to eliminate noise issues that was causing erratic running starting at speedstep 22 through about speedstep 45.  Might be worth looking into.  It was a 4.7uf 50V bi-polar capacitor.

See this thread.

Ran into the same problem when Mike R. had to replace my RCMC in my Big Boy; I added the capacitor and that resolved the speed issue; Sinclair ran into the same thing when he replaced his RCMC in his Big Boy; my E6 came from the factory with the capacitor installed.

John Rowlen posted:

This must be why many dealers only have test tracks, run a new engine back and forth, and never really are putting it to the test of extended operation.  Most of my articulated engines had pinched wire shorts and needed service.

It's not very realistic for a dealer to provide extended testing for every locomotive, the margins on selling them simply don't allow that kind of testing.  Besides, at these price points, you do have expectations that the product will function as intended.

Surefire posted:

John Rowlen posted:

It came back with a note that said "This is the best I could do." 

That is unacceptable and insulting. Lionel owes you a locomotive. 

I'd send it back with a note to shove it where the sun don't shine. They would have forever lost my business right then and there. 

After editing out the crude comments (always counter-productive, anyway), this is indeed what you should do. Not that every problem deserves "a new loco", but considering the comments in the results and the note, I'd say Lionel might want to consider a refund/swap of some sort.

I agree with everyone else on trying a cap again my VL Big Boy somehow fried the RCMC (only one that I’ve ever seen fry) they replaced it under warranty and had this issue. I wasn’t smart enough to dig deep enough as the cap is something I would’ve done but it went BACK to Lionel and has worked great ever since 

I was hoping Lionel would step up and take this engine back in for service.  I am not after a new engine. Just mine if it will run properly.  I had to send the Allegheny #1608 back to Lionel when it arrived damaged from Legacy Station.  I then canceled my #1601.

I am not sure a replacement engine from Lionel is a good thing.  Dean at Lionel Service sent me a new C&O Mallet #1522 for my Vision Line GG1 #4913 that Lionel could not repair after three attempts. The C&O Mallet #1522 arrived with a front detail part broken from the engine and white paint smeared on the walkway.  The whistle sound did not work in AUX 1 Sequence Control. The whistle just blew smoke, no sound.

The technician who worked on the  Allegheny #1604 is no longer working at Lionel. I have given Lionel a little business over the past five years.  I was hoping I mattered as a customer to Lionel.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I hate to say it, but it looks like Lionel is giving you the business!

John Rowlen posted:

MartyE,  You are right. I am a glutton for punishment.  I simply cannot believe that a company can produce so many engines with issues and stay in business.

 

This is due to people continue to buy these Chinese made engines with issues right from the beginning  and Lionel knows that, they know you are going to want that engine come **** or high water. These manufactures are under pressure to slap 'em together and get 'em out as quick as possible. So, in hence you get one almost right. Every year the bar raises higher and higher with more features than ever before, just more things to go wrong. I'm beginning to think these trains are getting too technically advanced these days, subtracts from the enjoyment of the hobby.

I voted with my wallet, I stopped buying that stuff years ago. I'm back to enjoying the hobby.

Gunrunner John, 

I ran the Allegheny in TMCC and 100 Step. Nothing changed.  I put new traction tires on the rear drivers and nothing changed.  I will be boxing the engine tomorrow.  It is always fun fastening the engine into the box with the screws and pedestals.

Looks like USPS gets one more chance to damage the engine. I will look up your contact information.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Hmmm....Lionels new slogan: "This is the best we could do".

John, did you try the cap across the motor?  I'm a little surprised that Lionel actually said "This is the best we could do".  Even if that were true, it's not something that most customers want to hear, I'd expect them to be a bit more diplomatic.  The odd thing is, a bunch of people have these, and this is the first time I've heard about them having the odd speed control issue.

With all the problems Lionel is having and I have read about I wonder how many engines I have new in the box that won't run right if at all. I have one preorder and it most likely will be my last. As others have said time to switch train companies. I have even thought about switching to HO. 

 A great longtime friend whom operated a Lionel certified service facility quit business back in the spring.

He said Lionel had been difficult to deal with during their move. He mentioned parts were not being sent out on time or not at all making it very frustrating to service Lionel items.

If this was sent by Lionel to a certified facility ,maybe part availability was an issue with your loco not being serviced correctly ? 

Hopefully Lionel will get things running more smoothly in time. 

Gunrunner John,

I took time two nights ago to attempt to open the engine.  The one screw at the fireman rear is torn up but out and the other came out.  The screw damage is thanks to the Lionel Service Technician.

It appears that several detail pipes are in need of bending out of the way after unscrewing them from the floor.  The engine chassis does not unscrew and lift out like my ATSF Northern. 

My front drive unit would not lift out.  The big downward force spring for the front drivers is hooked into the front floor and will not come loose. I saw no way to remove the rear drivers with the motor.  It is not a simple operation, at least for me.

I have never installed a cap on a motor.

1. I don't have the cap

2. Where do I soldier it?

3. How do I get the motor chassis out of the engine shell?

Again, I have not worked on steam engines before, especially large articulated engines.  The ATSF Northern was a leap of faith.  I am fatigued from trying to repair this Allegheny engine.

William Shakespeare said, "Fatigue can make cowards of us all."  I am tired and not willing enough to damage  this beautiful engine. 

Mom suggests I call 1-800-GOT JUNK.  Mom wants me to drive the engine to Lionel.  I had to explain that they are in North Carolina and we are in northern Ohio.  Being a caregiver for my 92 year old mom takes a lot of time.  Model Railroading allowed me to be close to watch her and have a mental escape from the constant care demands.  Now I need a mental escape from Lionel Trains.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

MACK B4,

This Lionel 6-92768 Allegheny #1604 went directly to the horse's mouth, or some part of the horse, in New Concord, North Carolina. 

Parts have been difficult for me to get too.  It took a year to get the 21" passenger kinematic coupler plates from Lionel.  Nicholas Smith Trains finally got them for me from damaged units going back to Lionel for credit.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Well, it sucks to be in that situation.  I am confused as to the difficulty, the top of the boiler shell should come off without taking anything else off, typically it's four screws.  There will doubtless be several connectors that have to be disconnected, but you shouldn't have to take any of the running gear off.

This is obviously pretty hard to diagnose in ASCII.

Then break out the EBCDIC.

Seriously, I am having major doubts about the J3a I have on pre-order.  I really don't want to have to send it to Lionel for any warranty work.

Gunrunner John,  I will look again.  I found what looks like two screws at the mid-rear of the engine, and a screw in the left rear steam chest (The right had no screw).  There are detail pipes to move out of the way that are attached to the engine shell.

I will look at the front of the engine, but that is floating above the front drivers and should not be fastened. Perhaps the technician stuck the downward pressure front drivers spring into the shell by mistake, and that is keeping the shell from lifting. It is obvious by now the technician did not know this engine well enough to service it. … Not that I understand it at all.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

GREGM,

Don't let my thread about the Allegheny worry you.  Lionel can't possibly have more issues.

I have contacted Lionel about the Drive Shaft/Dog Bone on the 6-11333 ATSF Northern being just long enough to work, then break as it wears the T-pins at the U-Joint.  Hopefully Lionel will open all of the incoming engines and inspect them all.  They may need to get more Gold Stickers.

Oh, I forgot, you don't want Lionel to open your engine.  We will have to wait and see.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I use to be the world's Biggest Optimist, and then I started collecting Lionel Legacy Trains. 

Now I hold my breath every time a engine arrives: brand new, newly serviced, serviced for the second time, or serviced for the third time.

Going to bring the Allegheny back up to see if I can get to the motor.  Nothing to lose, except my sense of humor.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

If I had any one additional continued hi-tech "problem child" of an engine I'd sell the item on Ebay and get whatever I could for it.  Allow the buyer inherit my headaches. From then, I'd go back and purchase a train without those pesky electronics, problem solved. Life is too short to be always dealing with  defective model trains.

John Rowlen,

With all due respect - with all the problems you have had with Lionel & their products two things come to mind:  1.) see a physiatrist  about your fixation with Lionel - OR - 2.) start pursuing  MTH products (not they are perfect), but there seems to better quality control & service @ MTH.  You are suppose to be enjoying this hobby rather than pursuing what appears to be "endless frustration"!

Lenny the Lion,

Selling a dead dog on Ebay may be expedient, but it is not fair to the new owner.  I never sell junk.  It would lower my self-esteem.

My flea ridden Allegheny will continue to haunt Lionel until it runs. This my version of "Stand Your Ground".  I will be a constant reminder that Lionel needs to solve their quality Control Problems and learn to Handle Customer Service more effectively.

Lionel needs to add more qualified technicians and open their facility to PAID repair work.  The influx of paid repairs can put a larger staff available to handle the sudden demand as a "product with issues" arrives from China.  The knowledge that Lionel will be available to fix my engines in the future after the one year warranty is critical in order to justify the purchase.  Why spend $2,000.00 for one year?  Why spend any amount of money if there are no extra parts for a repair?

Lionel has lost too many service centers for a variety of reasons: irate customers barging into a train store and scarring away a buyer about to make a purchase is one of them. Many times the person who needs the repair did not buy the engine from the service center store.  I discussed these issues with Dean and Mike five plus years ago.  I predicted quality issues would worsen.  … And as the song goes, "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet."

I hope I am wrong. I feel like Paul Revere and someone below is yelling, "Turn the **** light out".  The Boy Scouts have a pretty good motto: "Be Prepared".  I am sure they have some thoughts on service too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

Lionel has lost too many service centers for a variety of reasons: irate customers barging into a train store and scarring away a buyer about to make a purchase is one of them. Many times the person who needs the repair did not buy the engine from the service center store.  I discussed these issues with Dean and Mike five plus years ago.  I predicted quality issues would worsen.  … And as the song goes, "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet."

The primary reason that Lionel is losing service centers is they no longer run classes to certify new repair techs.  It's been many years since they had training, the attrition in the repair tech ranks has reduced the number of repair shops.  In addition, the new products are a different breed of cat, and it requires a different breed of repair tech, adding to the complication.

John Rowlen posted:

Lenny the Lion,

Selling a dead dog on Ebay may be expedient, but it is not fair to the new owner.  I never sell junk.  It would lower my self-esteem.

 

Actually I presumed all faults were documented in the Ebay description. I have bought basket cases on Ebay with disclosed issues and done quite well with them saving money for a used engine.

cjack posted:

John Rowlen posted:

Lenny the Lion,

Selling a dead dog on Ebay may be expedient, but it is not fair to the new owner.  I never sell junk.  It would lower my self-esteem.

 

Actually I presumed all faults were documented in the Ebay description. I have bought basket cases on Ebay with disclosed issues and done quite well with them saving money for a used engine.

Absolutely. Any defective trains I've sold always came with an accurate description of any thing wrong with the item. I would expect no less with anyone else. It surprising that some hobbyists will gladly accept something less than perfect, they make the best buyers. Some individuals might be happy that it just makes a complete circle around the track or just want to display it on their mantle.

One persons junk might be a treasure to someone else. Who knows? All that I know is that I'm done with it and on to something else. 

One of the difficulties in selling engines with flaws on Ebay is the Ebay Buyer Protection Plan that protects Buyers from engines that are NOT AS LISTED.  Any buyer complaint creates an automatic return issue. This is a good protection for the buyer, but it can create headaches for sellers of used equipment.

I might have an ugly engine, supply photos, write exactly how ugly it is, and still the dissatisfied buyer can claim,  "I thought it would look better."  A buyer return would be created automatically, lowering my seller rating and discount fee rate.  

The wording "Seller does NOT take returns" is meaningless.  If a complaint is made, a return is started.

With any business transaction there is risk: shipping damage, lost packages, buyer's remorse, etc.  But Ebay has been a good site for me to sell lightly used cars and engines that worked perfectly. 

I plan on offering a 30-day warranty on all sales.  Cars arrive either working or damaged,  Engines create a gray area as board issues and smoke units could fail. This said, Ebay is still a good site for thinning my collection.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Gunrunner John, 

If finding qualified technicians is becoming a problem, shouldn't manufacturers be offering classes to create more skilled technicians.  A great opportunity would be at YORK, where many potential class members could be found.  A Basic Tech Training class would allow O-gauge railroaders to discover their skill level and decide if further training is worth the investment of their time.  

Further classes could be conducted for those with the desire to improve their skills.  It all comes back to the Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared".  Are the manufacturers preparing skilled technicians for the future?  … Or has Model Railroading entered its final days.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

If finding qualified technicians is becoming a problem, shouldn't manufacturers be offering classes to create more skilled technicians.

DUH!!!  No kidding!  FWIW, MTH offers regular classes.

John Rowlen posted:

Further classes could be conducted for those with the desire to improve their skills.  It all comes back to the Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared".  Are the manufacturers preparing skilled technicians for the future?  … Or has Model Railroading entered its final days.

I can only presume that Lionel isn't that worried about maintenance after the fact.  It seems the prevailing attitude is you can always buy another one.  That attitude has permeated our entire society, we have truly become a throw-away society. 

Throw that Allegheny away, there's more at the store!

"Throw that Allegheny away, there are more at the store."

I know where more are, and the prices keep dropping, and dropping,  but still, who is going to service them?

Who you gonna call?

If we keep throwing away our broken possessions and buying new, we will spend all our money, and be living in the dumpster with our broken trains.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

If we keep throwing away our broken possessions and buying new, we will spend all our money, and be living in the dumpster with our broken trains.

Your Honor, I rest my case!

Ricko,

Are you referring to my sending my engines to Lionel Service expecting them to get repaired properly?

Gunrunner John,

What could cause the roof of my new 1931260 Challenger #3985 to become red hot.  It is above the Steam Generator Smoke Effect unit.  Do these smoke units have different heat settings that could when damaged, turn up to extreme heat?  The engine is now at Lionel Service.  It is the first time Lionel heard of a Challenger getting VERY HOT.

My Western Allegheny H-10 is also at Lionel for a burned out CAB Light,  I thought LEDs never burned out, yet the Headlight on my BNSF Golden Swoosh had to have the LED replaced. I had a dim LED in my FEF-3 UP #844 CAB Light.  There were also burned out marker lights on my SP #4449 Daylight.  LEDs never burn out. ,,, they just fail to work?  Is that it?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Well, the one flaw I had with the Vision Line Big Boy was the cab LED, I just took it out and replaced it.  Couldn't see shipping it for that.

John Rowlen posted:

 

Gunrunner John,

Talking about temperature, what could cause the roof of my new 1931260 Challenger #3985 to become red hot.  It is above the Steam Generator Smoke Effect unit.  Do these smoke units have different heat settings that could when damaged, turn up to extreme heat?  The engine is now at Lionel Service.  It is the first time Lionel heard of a Challenger getting VERY HOT.  … I am happy I could accommodate them.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, it could be like someone else suggested in another thread that smoke fluid escaped and went somewhere else and that could be the reason for the excessive heat.

I guess that's why the Lionel tech said to tilt the engine forward before adding fluid?

sahan posted:

I guess that's why the Lionel tech said to tilt the engine forward before adding fluid?

 

He said to do the best he can 

John Rowlen posted:

One of the difficulties in selling engines with flaws on Ebay is the Ebay Buyer Protection Plan that protects Buyers from engines that are NOT AS LISTED.  Any buyer complaint creates an automatic return issue. This is a good protection for the buyer, but it can create headaches for sellers of used equipment.

I might have an ugly engine, supply photos, write exactly how ugly it is, and still the dissatisfied buyer can claim,  "I thought it would look better."  A buyer return would be created automatically, lowering my seller rating and discount fee rate.  

The wording "Seller does NOT take returns" is meaningless.  If a complaint is made, a return is started.

With any business transaction there is risk: shipping damage, lost packages, buyer's remorse, etc.  But Ebay has been a good site for me to sell lightly used cars and engines that worked perfectly. 

I plan on offering a 30 warranty on all sales.  Cars arrive either working or damaged,  Engines create a gray area as board issues and smoke units could fail. This said, Ebay is still a good site for thinning my collection.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I have found that there is a way round the eBay buyer protection, the seller can sell the item as "parts" with no warranty or anything and "no return" Then buyer can't return it for any reason. Only downside is that you might not get a good price.

SAHAN,

Thank you for reminding me of the need to tilt the new Challenger #3985 engine forward when filling the Steam Generator with smoke fluid.  (Not discussing Allegheny at this time)  The smoke fluid would have to contact something that could be bridged by the liquid/fluid and heated to a high degree. The engine shell was as hot as an iron for clothes.  I don't think I could hold onto the engine if I were lifting it at the time without some discomfort/pain.  Other than a smoke unit or motor, I can't think of anything in the engine with that capability to create so much heat.  If it was the motor, I would expect some movement issues. It ran fine.  The only failure was the Steam Generator Smoke Effect.

Lionel has the engine.  I hope the heat did not damage the wiring inside the engine. There was heat above the Steam Generator, across the top, and also by the Smoke Stacks, though not as hot.

Listing an engine as parts would certainly drive the selling price down.  I don't own an engine that bad to list it as parts. I have insisted that all my engines are in excellent/like new condition.  I would rather risk a return, than sacrifice profit on an engine sale.  Most of my engines are Legacy, 2013 or newer.

Thanks again.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

If it's getting too hot to comfortably hold your hand on it, something is seriously wrong!  I've never seen one that gets that hot that doesn't have a significant problem.

I'm amazed that you have continued buying expensive, complicated toys that don't work or dont meet your expectations. 

It does appear to give you something write about and occupy your time.  

I think I would cut my losses and change hobbies, manufacturers, or expectations.

MartyE and Einstein have both made serious observations on this subject. 

Stop that.  The man is caring for his 92 year old ma and likes the diversion.  My take.  Interesting situation tho.  I check in with bated breath for every new update.

 John, do you have a cool layout to run your trains on.  Reason I ask is, if you are just buying expensive trains to run on a loop on a piece of plywood I kinda have an issue with that.  Just a personal thing. If I were you, I would fix everything I have and work on my layout.  Don’t buy anything else.  That’ll teach em....

Best of luck.  Keep em comin...

John Rowlen posted:

"If we keep throwing away our broken possessions and buying new, we will spend all our money, and be living in the dumpster with our broken trains.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Has anyone seen this??

AUSSTEVE,

I cannot tell if the new engine will meet my expectations until I buy it.  But the odds are now highly in favor that Lionel engines will not work properly.

I returned a Shay with bad gears to MB Klein, a B&O GP9 that gears did not even touch and Lionel Service broke the coupler lift bar off the front of the engine, that MB Klein accepted back. A Nickle Plate GP 9 #482 that had a broken front Lift Ring from Nicholas Smith. A Santa Fe SD 40 #5006 that wobbled more each day from Nicholas Smith. A Santa Fe SD40 #5018 that was missing air hoses and Lionel had no parts from Hobby Speed. A BNSF SD70 #9287 from MB Klein that was missing a rear bottom step  with two others broken from the rear of the engine. My Western Allegheny from Nicholas Smith is now at Lionel for a burned out LED Cab Light.  A 1931260 Challenger #3985 from Pat's Trains is at Lionel with no Generator Steam Smoke and is extremely hot to the touch.  The engine is also to get the correct articulated sounds and Out-of-Sync Drivers.  In all fairness, two of my H-10 and one K-4 Steam Engines have worked perfectly, and I'm hooked again.

I would say the odds are pretty good that future items will have issues.  That is why I called Lionel to tell them about the too short Drive Shaft in my older 6-11333 ATSF Northern #3759.  The shaft lasted two years until the end T-joints rounded and popped out of the U-joint cup,  The shaft was 3/16 of a inch too short to center in the cups.  There will be more of these arriving from China soon.  I just wanted to warn Lionel.  I am 100% supportive of Lionel.   I have been giving feedback for over five years and they have been sending me back an Allegheny that does not run correctly and a Southern Pacific AC-12 that was missing the front Pilot when it returned. I bought another Pilot from Lionel parts and it was bent, ... so I bought the very last AC-12 Pilot Lionel had.  It looks acceptable.

I still have many of my 100 HO engines and a few G-gauge Dash 9 and SD45 engines.  The birds were pooping on the G-gauge. (Outside, of course).  My vision in my left eye is almost gone, so detailing HO is very difficult. I detailed 180 Walthers passenger cars ten years ago.  Some I have sold on Ebay.  There are still forty HO buildings in the Music Room with Mom's three manual Allen Organ Theater Organ.

As to finding other hobbies,  I don't drink, so alcoholism is out. I like landscaping, but then so do the deer that ate everything I planted for my mother.  I can sit by the in-ground pool out back, but I need to cover it for winter.  I can sit in a restaurant and shove food in my face.  … And then there is Model Railroading.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

...But the odds are now highly in favor that Lionel engines will not work properly.

I returned a Shay with bad gears to MB Klein, a B&O GP9 that gears did not even touch and Lionel Service broke the coupler lift bar off the front of the engine, that MB Klein accepted back. A Nickle Plate GP 9 #482 that had a broken front Lift Ring from Nicholas Smith. A Santa Fe SD 40 #5006 that wobbled more each day from Nicholas Smith. A Santa Fe SD40 #5018 that was missing air hoses and Lionel had no parts from Hobby Speed. A BNSF SD70 #9287 from MB Klein that was missing a rear bottom step  with two others broken from the rear of the engine. My Western Allegheny from Nicholas Smith is now at Lionel for a burned out LED Cab Light.  A 1931260 Challenger #3985 from Pat's Trains is at Lionel with no Generator Steam Smoke and is extremely hot to the touch.  The engine is also to get the correct articulated sounds and Out-of-Sync Drivers.  In all fairness, two of my H-10 and one K-4 Steam Engines have worked perfectly, and I'm hooked again.

I would say the odds are pretty good that future items will have issues.  That is why I called Lionel to tell them about the too short Drive Shaft in my older 6-11333 ATSF Northern #3759.  The shaft lasted two years until the end T-joints rounded and popped out of the U-joint cup,  The shaft was 3/16 of a inch too short to center in the cups.  There will be more of these arriving from China soon.  I just wanted to warn Lionel.  I am 100% supportive of Lionel.   I have been giving feedback for over five years and they have been sending me back an Allegheny that does not run correctly and a Southern Pacific AC-12 that was missing the front Pilot when it returned. I bought another Pilot from Lionel parts and it was bent, ... so I bought the very last AC-12 Pilot Lionel had.  It looks acceptable.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Mr. Rowlen

On the one hand, I admire your dedication to your mother.

On the other, I am completely puzzled by your seemingly equal dedication to Lionel. The above statements made by you are why I say this.

I suspect there are quite a few of us who feel the same way.

Mark in Oregon 

I am also impressed with your patience and calm.  These are great traits in general.  You have set some kind of record for bad luck with a manufacturer's product line.  I've bought fewer and not as high end products, mostly from Lionel (but also MTH, Atlas and previously from K-Line, occasionally from 3rd Rail and Weaver).  I can count on one hand the number of failures out of the box, and I think my experience is pretty typical in the hobby.  Perhaps it's because I don't use my trains heavily, they mostly sit on the shelf after some test running, but this would account for early death of products.  Still that's a failure rate of perhaps 1% over 25 years, which is about what one expects.

Unlike others, while I'm inclined to think I wouldn't put up with your experiences, if your dealers and Lionel make the product right or exchange/refund, and you enjoy the hobby, don't let anyone give you advice, which, of course, I am doing .  Follow your own heart and mind in these matters.  May better luck come to you in future purchases.  Your experience is wildly different from the people I know, and my own purchases, so you are almost certain to do better in the future as the statistics even out.  You are purchasing from reputable dealers so they will make good on any problems.

William 1 posted:

Stop that.  The man is caring for his 92 year old ma and likes the diversion.  My take.  Interesting situation tho.  I check in with bated breath for every new update.

 John, do you have a cool layout to run your trains on.  Reason I ask is, if you are just buying expensive trains to run on a loop on a piece of plywood I kinda have an issue with that.  Just a personal thing. If I were you, I would fix everything I have and work on my layout.  Don’t buy anything else.  That’ll teach em....

Best of luck.  Keep em comin...

I have not read all the above replies, and have never bought a Legacy, Visionline or other high end locomotive with whistle smoke, bell that moves back and forth, and other advanced features. 

Based on my anectodal experience, I would consider switching to less advanced but IMO very good and more reliable trains like LC+.  From my experience with LC+ and what I've read on this Forum about them, they are much more reliable and Lionel is good about servicing them while under warranty.

Also, consider buying from a fair-minded LHS that appreciates your regular business, even if it's just spending a few hundred dollars per year there.  Although mine doesn't guarantee everything, mine would help me get a problem train fixed by Lionel, or let me return it to the LHS for store credit. Arnold

Lionel has been like the beautiful woman who doesn't always love you back.  Some great moments, and then  some absolutely maddening.

I have been very fortunate that the dealers have helped me when possible.  We often commiserate with each other.  Remember that Lionel Dealers have their stories too, but you will never hear of them.  They get to stack pallets of damaged/returned merchandise to return to Lionel for a dealer credit.

We are all part of a large Model Railroader family: Dealers, Customers, Manufacturers. and the Shipper who just delivered the dessert cake upside down in the box.  Some days are a picnic, and other days everybody brought potato salad.  "Ah man, who was supposed to bring the beer?" 

Have a good week.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I've found great enjoyment in the hobby by building a small stable of reliable locomotives and then spending the rest of my time on scenery and operations.  If you've spent upwards of 200K over a few years on new motive power, then either you have the world's largest train layout or the world's worst CMO.

Jon

KOOLJOCK,

I was happiest when I was building my new layout.  Then I was set off course by the number of items that came in needing repairs.  I have as large a layout as space will allow. 

The detailing supplies are under the layout waiting to be applied section by section. The Grand Central Gems Lodgepole pines and Redwood trees, the Atlas O Signals partially installed are waiting. The upper level to the Rotary Coal Unloader needs to be finished.

I have revisions to make on the lower level that became apparent after running the layout. I wanted to use the series of Atlas O Double Slip Switches that look great, but are highly impractical for my limited freight yard.  I need to make sure function wins over design elements.  One single Pratt Bridge needs to move back two more inches to accommodate the swinging boiler of the Big Boy and other articulated engines.  All the best planning, often needs changes as the layout begins operating. 

I included a video made when I worked on my 86' Boxcars, oiling the kinematic coupler slides and attempting to get them to move freely and not derail the car(s). The video pans across my layout as it is currently.  I need a few access points near the yard on the large table.

I don't know about my CMO, but my BLT is really delicious.  Nothing makes everything better like bacon.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

In the video, I see (2) engines, a building and a passenger car setting cross-ways on top of a bridge.

For some reason the current thread "Did You Ever Drop a Locomotive?" now comes to mind... 

Mark in Oregon

How in the world do you even get to those shelves?

Mark In Oregon,

Fortunately I never dropped an engine, … or a car. 

Thank you for your observation.  You would be surprised how sturdy a correctly built Atlas O Pratt Bridge can be. The Santa Fe is a new Dummy unit from High Country Hobbies that goes with the two powered Santa Fe GP9 engines on display in the living room. 

The New York Central GP30 is a shell transferred onto a GP35 chassis.  It is my one "Frankenstein" creation that is needing a new smoke unit I ordered and received from Lionel parts. This work is on the bottom of my To-Do List.  Not every idea hatched late at night is a good idea.  It does run perfectly without smoke in a consist with a NYC GP35 I own.

The building is the Office for the Walthers / Atlas O Lumber Yard.  I added and painted a wood grained floor and will add Woodland Scenics Plug-in LED Lights. It goes by my sawmill and Forklift Unloader.

My Atlas O California Zephyr passenger is in search of its box.  I have it.  I have all my boxes, but where did it go.

Is there really a thread on OGR that asks "Did you every dropped an engine?"  Make sure to forward it to UPS, FEDEX, and USPS.  My mailman and I were talking when my UPS driver dropped a big Aristocraft G-gauge engine off the back of his truck and into the street. His tight brown shorts may have been riding up that day.

Thank you again for your question.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Gunrunner John,

The lack of access to the shelves is my biggest design flaw.  I was six years younger when I started the layout and able to climb up on the 2x4 sub-structure Table.  This area will get a re-designed Freight yard.  I love the Atlas O #5 Double Slip Switch, but a row of them eats up most of my freight yard run. I might follow a design shown by Chris A on the "What Did You do …" thread.  A downward ramp to a lower multi-tracked storage area might work.  I also have two places where a lead from the upper level (not yet built) could run into the laundry room and a four track storage yard.  This is more likely.

Or I will remove the yard and create a big quarry pit for my aged body to enter the middle of the layout.  The Quarry pit sounds better every time I say it.  Well padded with a small refrigerator.  Don't wake me if you hear snoring.

Now that I am running the lower level, I can see areas for improvement.  Learn from my mistake: we get older, wider (yes that is wider, not wiser), and less able to get to where we use to when we were younger.  

Again, Thank you for all your help.  The YLB Batteries are excellent.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

Gunrunner John,  I will look again.  I found what looks like two screws at the mid-rear of the engine, and a screw in the left rear steam chest (The right had no screw).  There are detail pipes to move out of the way that are attached to the engine shell.

I will look at the front of the engine, but that is floating above the front drivers and should not be fastened. Perhaps the technician stuck the downward pressure front drivers spring into the shell by mistake, and that is keeping the shell from lifting. It is obvious by now the technician did not know this engine well enough to service it. … Not that I understand it at all.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John,

Assuming this is the same as the TLC Allegheny, here are the screws to remove to release the top of the boiler.

Take out the following 4 screws (the manual is wrong on both sets listed):

Front:

Back:

The last step on the under side is you need to pull out the rear grab irons lower connection from the bottom hole insert:

Now, just turn the engine onto its wheels and gently lift off the top of the boiler (it separates at the walk platforms).  Careful to not break the solder connection to the handrails (antenna).

If you want to send the engine to get fixed, I used Alex Malliae who Lionel sent me to for my older Legacy Challenger.  He is on the forum (Alex M) and here is his contact info:

Jada Enterprises
(917) 971-9196
301 Karen Ct
Freehold, New Jersey 07728

Allan,

Thank you very much for the information.  I will look under the shell before deciding to send the engine for service.

"(The manual is wrong on both sets (of screws) listed.)"  Why am I not surprised by this.  I wonder what the Lionel technician did when he followed the manual instructions when servicing my engine.

Oh, I remember, He said, "I did the best I could."

Thank you again.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Thank you again

This makes MPC look good!

I really don't enjoy being negative on this forum, but why do posts like this stay at the top?  I have had no out of the box failures on my O scale trains.  Am I lucky?  Perhaps, but I do not purchase O scale Lionel (of MTH for the record) products new.  My manufacturer of choice stands behind their product. 

If your locomotive is not operating per specification, send it back as often as it takes and make Lionel pay the shipping.  If this was bought new you are entitled to quality product that operates per specification.  If Lionel cannot commit to that, send it back for a full refund.  End of story.  3rd Rail made an excellent brass Allegheny.  While it may not have all the bells and whistles of a Legacy version, it is a solid runner. 

John Rowlen posted:

"(The manual is wrong on both sets (of screws) listed.)"  Why am I not surprised by this.  I wonder what the Lionel technician did when he followed the manual instructions when servicing my engine.

Oh, I remember, He said, "I did the best I could."

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Mr. Rowlen

On the 22nd (Sunday) you wrote "I am 100% supportive of Lionel".

2 days later (Tuesday) you posted the above (in red) which seems to be in conflict with your earlier statement.

I hope you can see why there might be some of us who are confused by this whole conversation...

My advice (which is worth nothing) would be: take a break from buying more locos and learn to repair the ones you already have (you have quite a few, so that should keep you busy). You'll save a ton of dough and have a lot more fun in the process...

Mark in Oregon

And this thread keeps running and running.....for what reason?  John...I am closing this thread.  It has served its purpose (whatever that is).  Frankly, all of this bashing and airing out in threads like this is getting old!  If you aren't happy with a manufacturers product or service, then stop buying it!  If you don't like the service you got...then send the loco to another service center.  I swear....you have the worst luck with your purchases....!  The thread is closed and after a few hours, it will be deleted.  If any of you have something you want to keep within the thread, then save it.