Lionel 773 Hudson - 1950 Version

IMO the growl is typical, not a problem there.  Your '50 model probably has more mileage on it.  It was built before "peak train" and probably saw a lot of use.  By 1964 the train hobby was waning, some of these were played with for a year and put away, only to surface years later as collectibles.

Regarding the stalling / slipping... It seems as though the front truck or the pickup rollers are taking weight off of the first driving axle.  I also noticed that there's a "gap" between track sections in the middle of that curve.  Is the pickup roller getting snagged in the gap?  Is one of the side rods bent, and possibly binding at that point in the curve?  When the loco sticks, try to wiggle the side rods and see if there's any free play.  Check the smoke lever too.

I would put your '64 and '50 side-by-side, upside-down in cradles and look for any differences.  I know that Lionel changed the roller pickup design after the 1950 model, supposedly for compatibility with Super O track.  Is there an extra washer under the lead truck?  If you power the '50 with test leads while upside-down and look at the wheels while they're turning, is there a noticeable wobble?

Are all of the wheels tight and secure on their axles?  For all of the hype surrounding the '50 model, I don't believe Lionel did a good job of getting the axles centered.  To permit operation on O31 track I think these were gauged narrower than the prewar 763E (which was O72 only, I believe.)  I think the new powdered iron wheels were narrower too, perhaps because they had to take into account the added thickness of the ferrous plates on either side of the chassis which propagate magnetism to the wheels.  Regardless of the reason, I've seen a half-dozen 773's for sale where one of the driving wheels was about to come off its axle!

I know prewar 700Es and 763Es sometimes develop a warped frame due to metallurgy issues / zinc pest.  I've NEVER heard of warping on a 1950 773, but if you place yours on a PERFECTLY LEVEL piece of straight track-- maybe a brand-new piece of Atlas O that hasn't been stepped on, jammed in a box, etc.-- do all of the driving wheels, or at least the flanged ones (the outer four) make solid contact with the rails?

How much wear is in the axle bearings?  Can you rock the axles in the frame by twisting them?  How do they compare to your '64?  Again, mileage and lack of lubrication over the years is a factor here.  Unfortunately replacing the axle bearings is an expert-level repair.  If they're excessively worn it's easier to get a new rolling chassis, which is a $250 part.   Sorry Hudson fans, but the 1946-model 726 was a better design.

Bottom line, these are 55-70 year old toys that were subject to typical variation in manufacturing, and all kinds of use and abuse since then!  Some run better than others, that's a good reason to buy more than one if you can afford it.  Based on your other videos, your '64 seems like a good runner.  That's why I advised you not to take it apart unless necessary.  Check out each of the things I mentioned and get back to us, maybe we can improve operation of your '50 model.

I should add that the engine was not binding at the curve at all - I was trying to get it to go as slow as possible and it stalled a bit - it is only the slipping that is an issue. 

I seem to recall the 50 773 being prone to the magnet shifting and causing unnecessary drag... I'll have to research that to be sure I'm not crossing wires in my brain.

I think it’s the way the track is going up on the carpet, the engine handles all of your other curves with no problem

LIKevin posted:

I think it’s the way the track is going up on the carpet, the engine handles all of your other curves with no problem

Yes, track geometry.

The rails are not supported even on the carpet where they begin their sitting upon the area rug.  The cross ties are not on the transition, but separate rails are.  Because of the curve, the outer rail is not supported same time the inside rail is.  Weight of the Hudson forces the outside rail downward, this causes the profile of the rails to change in relation to one another.  Just as Rob stated, due to change in track geometry.

Jesse   TCA

Track geometry and grade. That is a tight curve for a 773, it would do better with 072. I had a 1950 773 and am sorry to this day I sold it. Sold it with a near mint original Southern A-A F-3 and magnetic crane for enough to by my first Betamax. What a fool. Don

SORRY, but 773's deserve a minmum of 72" diameter curves both to LOOK and RUN well.

Tinplate Art posted:

SORRY, but 773's deserve a minmum of 72" diameter curves both to LOOK and RUN well.

The postwar 773s are designed for and function properly on O-31. I own a fair share of them and operate them on O-31 regularly. That is not to say that larger curves don't add esthetics.

texastrain posted:

The rails are not supported even on the carpet where they begin their sitting upon the area rug.  The cross ties are not on the transition, but separate rails are.  Because of the curve, the outer rail is not supported same time the inside rail is.  Weight of the Hudson forces the outside rail downward, this causes the profile of the rails to change in relation to one another.  Just as Rob stated, due to change in track geometry.

Jesse   TCA

I accept that and it makes sense. What DON'T make sense is despite the track irregularity the 1964 version ran this identical route without the slightest hesitation. I put something under the track to level it and yes it runs the route now without hesitation. I just thought that the engines were supposed to be identical and if one can do it the other should. But I guess the 15 year gap in manufacture may have introduced some variable. In any case I will thoroughly check over the engine just to make sure nothing is funky. 

I also considered that this engine has a very long wheelbase compared to the "speed demons" and this could and probably would cause issues on an irregular - especially twisted - track causing a corner to loose traction. But once again, until THIS engine was used there were no issues with the other 773. Anyway, the input was useful and appreciated. I'll keep things on the level! LOL!

bmoran4 posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

SORRY, but 773's deserve a minmum of 72" diameter curves both to LOOK and RUN well.

The postwar 773s are designed for and function properly on O-31. I own a fair share of them and operate them on O-31 regularly. That is not to say that larger curves don't add esthetics.

YES indeed! And for what its worth, I had the other 773 (1964) running this route with 031 curves without the slightest issue. I got the 042 curves recently so I could run some of my bigger non-Lionel engines. And I am going to build something this rug stuff is gonna go. I just re-claimed this space in the house and since I never had ANY room for even a floor layout I did this for now. Its just that I haven't had any trains in 30++ years and had to put up something fast and quick LOL! - AL

Your 64’s magnets might be a tad bit stronger than the 50’s......no big deal if it is....run the snot out of them both......Pat...

fisherdoc posted:

This 1950 773 Hudson is a brand new purchase and am a bit concerned. Please check the video. The spot where the engine is slipping is mostly (but NOT the only curve) where the track (042) meets the rug so I thought that might be affecting it. However, my  other 773 (1964 version) zips through this with NO hesitation whatsoever even at a creep! Also, all my "speed demons" make it right through even at very slow speeds. I have no idea what may be causing this. I put some cardboard under the curve to even it out and it helped but again NO other engine has this issue!

My 1964 773 goes around 031 curves with no issue. I now am using 042 curves and this is what you see in this video with THIS engine.

Also, listen to the engine. That growl has me wondering. This is a brand new purchase and I still have recourse if this is a serious enough issue. Thanks for any help and advice! - AL

I am completely convinced this engine has issues that thus far are beyond my scope. So I eliminated the dip in the tracks and now the front pilot truck won't stay on the rails - the moment it hits a curve this is what happens and I see no reason why this should be. I have photos of the pilot mounts of both this one and the 1964 version and there is a washer on the 1950 that is not on the 1964 - its a large silver washer contacting the engine body as shown. 

in the meantime it is time to contact the seller because this is all nonsense and BS I don't need. My 1964 engine runs FLAWLESSLY over ANYTHING!

harmonyards posted:

Your 64’s magnets might be a tad bit stronger than the 50’s......no big deal if it is....run the snot out of them both......Pat...

and here is the 1964 773 zipping all over the place with NEVER an issue on the SAME route! And no growl! 

Al, some growl, some don’t.....you can spend some time tinkering with one that growls to minimize the growl, and even at that, they’ll still growl.....to most, that growl is part of the whimsical charm that those locomotives are famous the world over for.....have a good tech look at your precious new babies if you’re uncomfortable going inside to make sure all is well and perhaps have the couple issues you’re having addressed.....and if all is well, let em’ growl........Pat

harmonyards posted:

Al, some growl, some don’t.....you can spend some time tinkering with one that growls to minimize the growl, and even at that, they’ll still growl.....to most, that growl is part of the whimsical charm that those locomotives are famous the world over for.....have a good tech look at your precious new babies if you’re uncomfortable going inside to make sure all is well and perhaps have the couple issues you’re having addressed.....and if all is well, let em’ growl........Pat

Then my 1964 version must be a real gem because you can barely hear the motor - the track noise drowns it out. The other one sounds like a blender is going in the room! Anyway, its going back I've had enough of this engine. WAY too much money to be baloneying around like this. 

Ted S posted:

Is there an extra washer under the lead truck?

@fisherdoc did you read my post?

Check wheel gauge. It may be gauged to tight.

Compare with the ones with no problems.  A vernier works good to check gauge clearance.

OK I think I am on to the problem. It seems the pilot truck is not "floating" and is taking weight off of the driving wheels. This is causing the engine to loose traction anytime there is the slightest irregularity in the track - which is why my 1964 Hudson does not have these track issues. 

The front of the truck seems OK but the rear of the pilot truck is NOT floating. I see a washer and spring on the rear mount that is NOT on my 1964 version and is NOT shown in the 1950 773 service manual which came with the engine. NOT to be confused with the CENTER spring which is fine. 

Interestingly, in Don Hagar's video (albeit this is a prewar 700E) he shows this washer and spring on the rear of the pilot truck. So perhaps it is installed incorrectly. All I know is that the rear of this truck has literally NO upward movement when the engine is sitting on a perfectly level track.

I will dis-assemble it and have a close look later today - in the meantime here is a photo of the culprit. In fact I will post a photo of the 1950 and the 1964 front trucks you can see what I am talking about. I also show a shot of the service manual showing the pilot truck parts.

I also show what it does as it approaches a curve - note the pilot truck lifting up.

I would run it without the front truck. If it stops slipping then you know the front truck is the issue and go from there.

fisherdoc posted:

OK I think I am on to the problem. It seems the pilot truck is not "floating" and is taking weight off of the driving wheels. This is causing the engine to loose traction anytime there is the slightest irregularity in the track

Did you even read my post?  Did anybody?  Bueller?  Bueller??

Ted S posted:

Regarding the stalling / slipping... It seems as though the front truck or the pickup rollers are taking weight off of the first driving axle. 

I'm starting to think that maybe I'm dead and no one can hear me, that "Sixth Sense" kind of thing with Bruce Willis 

Ted S posted:

fisherdoc posted:

OK I think I am on to the problem. It seems the pilot truck is not "floating" and is taking weight off of the driving wheels. This is causing the engine to loose traction anytime there is the slightest irregularity in the track

Did you even read my post?  Did anybody?  Bueller?  Bueller??

Ted S posted:

Regarding the stalling / slipping... It seems as though the front truck or the pickup rollers are taking weight off of the first driving axle. 

I'm starting to think that maybe I'm dead and no one can hear me, that "Sixth Sense" kind of thing with Bruce Willis 

You can lead a horse to water...............

NJCJOE posted:

I would run it without the front truck. If it stops slipping then you know the front truck is the issue and go from there.

SO... I removed the spring and cupped washer that as I said are NOT on my 1964 version and NOT indicated in the 1950 manual. Now the engine runs fine - when I create that twist on the carpeting by removing the support it still gets stuck but not as bad and the pilot won't de-rail and it has upward mobility so I know it is not lifting the chassis anymore. The slipping is a bit worse than the 1964 version, however, I think the '64 has stronger magnets. All said and done as far as I am concerned the problem is solved. I don't expect both engines to be identical anyway so I am happy with it now. 

You gotta wonder what that spring and washer were doing in there since the engine won't run with them. They cause the pilot to lift the chassis and bind on curves. They certainly look like Lionel parts. Maybe someone saw Don Hagar's video and assumed this spring and washer also belong on this engine.

Thanks everyone for all the input! 

AL

Al can you post a video of the fixed engine for us interested readers?

Perhaps the washer and spring were added in the past for running on large radius curves? 

Rich Wiemann posted:

Al can you post a video of the fixed engine for us interested readers?

Absolutely! I just took this video. The washer and spring are gone and the front truck now has normal vertical movement. I tried every which way but that spring and washer only mess things up. And as I said it is NOT in the service manual or in my 1964 773. Now it runs fine,  but it still needs a going over and a lube job. But clearly the issue is GONE! 

As I mentioned, this washer and spring are seen in the Hagar video but that is an original 700E not one of these 773's.  And - incidentally - Hagar is working on this valuable delicate engine banging it around on a wooden bench with no towel and no cushioning like it's a cheap toy. And no one says a word they just keep filming!  And I am not the only one who noticed this. All I know is when I work on something like one of these engines no matter how rare or common it is I treat it with the utmost care and respect like it has nitro-glycerin in it. Multiple layers of towels - NEVER on anything hard like that. 

This is just one of the reasons that no one touches my stuff but me!

Well, I don’t like to comment on folks’ workshop practices, particularly folk I don’t know personally. 

I keep the polystyrene channels that come in the ends of laptop boxes and similar items, I have a selection now and they serve as very good loco cradles. 

That said, it was definitely one of the attractions of O Gauge, that I didn’t have the fragile super-detailed fittings my On30 stock has, I can handle it without reservations and none of it was expensive. 

To Ted S yes I read your post and would like to thank you for taking the time to post. Even though I don’t have one of these steamers still found your post informative and interesting thanks 

well whatever the reason it would not make ANY curve without lifting off the rails. Its now fixed and that is what matters and I thank everyone for their input!

As an aside I have read that Frank Ellison removed the front truck on his 700 e's  on the Delta Line because they tended to derail.

Ted S posted:

Ted S posted:

Is there an extra washer under the lead truck?

@fisherdoc did you read my post?

The pilot truck does have two washers. I placed one on each side of the truck frame. 

I just watched the Hagar film on the dis-assembly of the 5344 Hudson. The pilot truck on the 773's is completely different. The finishing washer and spring are not used. Someone may have seen the video and thought they were missing or perhaps they saw a service manual for the 5344 and thought the 773 should also have the washer and spring. What's baffling is that the engine simply would not run with the washer and spring installed. These engines have been around a LONG time and we'll never know their history I guess.

The bottom line is its fixed and running beautifully. 

I HAVE THE SAME ENGINE AND I RUN MINE ON O48 TRACK I TRYED THE SMALLER CURVE AND THE SAME THING HAPPEND TO MY ENGINE

Does it have that spring and washer under the REAR of the pilot truck? Not to be confused with the center spring and washer. Thanks! AL

My recollection is that O-72 was not marketed in 1950, so this engine should run on 31" diameter curves.  The 736 Berkshire of that vintage did.  BTW, the Berk was reduced to $37.50 in 1950 & the 773 went for $50.  I got the former for Christmas.

Note the recommendation above to check whee; spacing; I would add to also check track spacing.

ALL I AM SAYING IS IF YOU LOOK BACK LIONEL T RAIL TRACK IS O72 CURVES RIGHT NOW I AM COLLECTING T RAIL TRACK AND THAT IS WHAT THE 700E HUDSON IN THE NEW YORK SHOWROOM USES. AGAIN I THINK YOUR 773 HUDSON WOULD RUN BETTER ON 048 TRACK 

I repeat - The engine is FINE now that I removed the spring and washer that was not supposed to be there at the rear of the front truck! It runs on 031, 042, FLAWLESSLY! Thanks for all the input!

fisherdoc posted:

Rich Wiemann posted:

Al can you post a video of the fixed engine for us interested readers?

Absolutely! I just took this video. The washer and spring are gone and the front truck now has normal vertical movement. I tried every which way but that spring and washer only mess things up. And as I said it is NOT in the service manual or in my 1964 773. Now it runs fine,  but it still needs a going over and a lube job. But clearly the issue is GONE! 

As I mentioned, this washer and spring are seen in the Hagar video but that is an original 700E not one of these 773's.  And - incidentally - Hagar is working on this valuable delicate engine banging it around on a wooden bench with no towel and no cushioning like it's a cheap toy. And no one says a word they just keep filming!  And I am not the only one who noticed this. All I know is when I work on something like one of these engines no matter how rare or common it is I treat it with the utmost care and respect like it has nitro-glycerin in it. Multiple layers of towels - NEVER on anything hard like that. 

This is just one of the reasons that no one touches my stuff but me!

Since I started with this engine I've been getting little bugs out of it. Last night I was running it and it just kept getting slower. I figured its time for a major work over so I put it on the bench and completely tore it down. The gearbox cover needed a new gasket which I made. Gearbox had very little lube that was really old and dirty. Cleaned it out and loaded it with synthetic grease. Motor is all cleaned up - armature commutator polished with fine crocus cloth, brushes & brush plate cleaned and more and more. I worked on this for around 2 hours cleaning and lubricating. LOADED with carbon dust.

The results were as always - marvelous! Here is a video of how this thing runs now! WHAT a difference! It is pulling a set of MTH Scale NY Central heavyweights.

BTW I couldn't run a train for more than 3-4 minutes before track would come apart somewhere. So I cut thin strips of Gorilla Tape and anytime a section came apart I taped the ties together on the outside on one side only.  I did maybe half the joints and bingo problem solved! I can now run the heavies like the 773 at a good speed without track coming apart! 

Mine are cheaper LOL. I have the track pliers.