Lionel Aluminum Cars manufacturing question?

Mike,

I remember reading somewhere that in the postwar years the extruding was done by outside contractors for Lionel. I believe Lionel stamped out the windows, etc., but the extrusions were supplied to them.

I can't imagine that Mt. Clemens would have done it any differently, but that's just an educated guess.

I'm sure Todd or Bob O. will know for sure.

Jim

Mike, I don't recall where, but I remember reading that in Lionel's PW days the aluminum shells were produced at a plant somewhere in the Reading, Pa. area.   I don't know if  that continued into the MPC and/or Kughn eras. 

Interesting.  I think I have read the same thing but lets hope some with Mt Clemens knowledge chime in.

When I was dating, the subject of trains came up. Her father recognized the name "Lionel." He said that he had worked in Alcoa Aluminum in Cressona, on the northwest side of Schuylkill (SKOO-kill or -kull) Haven south of Pottsville, PA, in the 1950's. He told us that the plant had extruded aluminum bodies for Lionel 15" streamlined passenger cars. They were shipped to Lionel in Irvington/Hillside, where windows and baggage car doors were punched. Window strips and floors with lights, trucks and couplers were slipped into channels in the aluminum bodies.

He also recalled that defective bodies were returned to be recycled. Some had been extruded improperly or something had gone wrong when windows were punched. He said that some cars had trucks and couplers. Those would be collectors' items today.

He hadn't kept any cars but when I showed him my first train set (2222WS; 1954) he recognized the cars immediately. I also showed him my ALCOA hopper (6346; 1956). He thought that Lionel may have made that car to honor Cressona Aluminum. Those bodies had been extruded there since 1952.

I don't have any photos of the plant. But on the Saturday after Thanksgiving for the past two years, Santa Claus Specials headed by Reading & Northern 4-6-2 No. 425 and ex-Jersey Central 0-6-0 No. 113 have run from Minersville to Cressona. The plant is visible in the background of some videos. It is still, thank God, in business. I looked on YouTube but I couldn't find any brief videos of the plant. Maybe someone can post one. If not, go to YouTube and look for videos of the Santa Claus Specials at Cressona.

Here's an areal...

Lionel has kept a tight lid on the real story behind their extruded aluminum production, but here's an aerial of the real production facility, still in place....

....and a shot of the extrusion machine.

Vertical integration (keeping processes within one manufacturing location) is a great idea, protecting proprietary technologies of product and process, controlling production schedules/quantities, minimizing work-in-process shipping costs, etc., etc., etc..

However, extruding aluminum...ITC, toy train car bodies...is not something Lionel would've ever considered for in-house processing, IMHO.  Extrusion of aluminum, the basic process, was neither invented by Lionel, nor did the basic car body contour have unique qualities for which the material and die construction were to be protected.

Moreover, if you read through this link re the process...

AL extrusion link

...there is one line that rings the loudest for me...

"Typical extrusion presses cost more than $100,000, whereas dies can cost up to $2000."

...and that's JUST the press itself, one of them, without the handling/heating/prep equipment, specialized labor/costs, etc..  And, if your market/production/sales projections in a given year were dependent on successful production of items using this process, chances are you'd have some duplicity built in....a.k.a., a second >$100K press, et alia...in case the first set encountered problems.   That's easier for a specialty manufacturing shop, one that has multiple presses, depth of labor skills, serving multiple customers with similar product needs, etc., to handle than Lionel....for whom this process would've been uniquely tied to one product line...passenger cars.

All of that process expense has to be absorbed in the cost of the product, ultimately finding its way to the selling price to the consumer.  Duh?  Oh!? 

I'm sure Williams (USA-production era) didn't vertically integrate AL extrusion, either.  Nor K-Line.  Nor MTH.  Nor any other gauge mfr. of toy trains.

And, I'd really be surprised if Sanda Kan did/does.  The $$$ and technology-process-labor skill 'fit' really isn't unique to U.S. production.  It's the universal way you look at making money, making toy trains.

In my 31.5-years of engineering/management work with a large automotive corporation I visited and became reasonably acquainted with manufacturers specializing in metal extrusion process.  While hot or cold extrusion (not sure which Lionel's part would've used) of aluminum was not the process/parts I was involved with, the suppliers' plants were truly 'scary' places to be in.  When you're dealing with thousands of tons of pressure pushing hot or cold metal into and through dies, and rapidly handling/processing the resulting extrudate sometimes flying out of the press, you're definitely not squeezing oranges at a juice bar or putting toothpaste on your toothbrush!! 

FWIW, always...

And just one man's opinion, of course.

KD

I would suggest that aluminum cars may someday rise in value as a rare commodity among collectors.  There has been speculation that the decline in NatGas pricing brought on by the shale boom would entice manufacturers of Plastic products to locate in the USA.

In the meantime, there is likely to be a major shift toward 3D printing technologies that will enable manufacturers to bring production back in house and dare I say it, back to the USA?  Don't be surprised if the entire product becomes "printable" in some sense of the word.  For example, SpaceX is now capable of manufacturing the Dragon Capsule rocket motors via 3D printing techniques.

This opens up a whole new dimension to the home hobbyists, with the possibility, finally, of a modular scale platform, including motors and electronics of your choosing, along with shells of an infinite variety (including variations of prototypical mock-ups, smoke and light placement).  Then its up to you to decide your paint schemes, hues and decal placement, etceteras.  What I will surely miss is all the criticism and *****ing about the manufacturers getting it wrong... instead we will only have ourselves to criticize (if we live that long!)  LOL!  One thing for sure, 3D printing IS capable of a level of precision unlike any current manufacturing process and will ultimately be the most cost effective for anything requiring precision.

As for me, I will just be happy when I can 3D print 054 Super O curved track and switches!  

I had family who used to work for ALCOA, they remember seeing aluminum marked "Lionel".

There was a man, Clark Benson in Stratford, CT, who made O Scale Streamlined Passenger Car Kits.  He told me that he would rent the extruder head and set things up with whomever had the extruding machine and make the bodies for the kits he sold.  This was in the late 40's and early 50's.

All very interesting.   

I wish I could have some of the aluminum extrusions.  I could build lots of UP passenger cars from them.  Stuff that's never been done before in O scale.  Now, that'd be cool!

For what it's worth, the problem with building UP correct passenger cars is, and has been, the UP cars were riveted, thus virtually impossible to accomplish with an "extrusion". That is why Golden Gate Depot is trying to figure out how to produce correct UP passenger cars, at a fair price.

Interesting background, mk.  I have 8 of these Benson scale length aluminum car kits in OB's that I bought at some long forgotten train show in Chicagoland in the late '80's or thereabouts.  The extrusions appear to be identical to LIONEL, as are the plastic ends.  Three are vista domes with lead domes--extremely heavy; and, one is a flat ended observation car.  A couple of the cars don't have cut-outs for the trucks.

They come with clear acetate windows, and Masonite floors; but, would easily accept LIONEL frames, trucks, etc. Haven't figured out what to do with them, yet.

Thanks, again, mk, for your info.

Looks like the plant is now part of Sapa Extrusions.

Lionel used to lease out the extrusion and die-castings to local mom and pop shops over the years. Usually at this time the shops where local. 

When I was fresh out of college,  I work for a mirror supplier who was running die cast mirror heads at a prototype shop. What was going on the in die next to me were the 783/784/785 Hudson boiler shell castings. I talked to the press operator as I was waiting for them set up my die and said what are you going to do with these bins of parts here. He said oh, those are the rejects, they have some imperfections in them.

and I replied could I have a few? He handed me as much as I wanted when I left for the day... I think I handed out free boilers to all my train buddies that year.

I was in HO...

The Benson saga tells me that Lionel did these things in one piece.  Ed Alexander made Budd cars with two extrusions and window strips separately, and Midland Reproductions repeated that effort.

The Benson extrusions were identical to the Lionel extrusions, right down to the incorrect lower letter board.  Lionel did have some correct Budd extrusions done, and used them only on baggage cars.

If you like to cut your own, rumor has it that some smooth and some Daylight blank extrusions still exist in the Fresno area, and Haynes Mac Daniel, of Mac Shops, did three pretty much correct Budd extrusions.  I have cut windows in all of them, and am as happy with them as I am with K-Line and Sunset.  My one Benson car got sold three decades ago, mostly because of that incorrect lower letter board.  The Lionel ends would fit any of them.

The detailed post above brought a question to mind...which Williams items were USA made?  ..when did it shift off shore.

Also. didn't Lionel in recent years make an extruded aluminum hopper? And Amtrak Superliner?  I bet those are hard to find.

Back in 2005 Lionel cataloged a few different four car aluminum superliner sets.

Also cataloged the following year a station sounds diner and a two car sleeper set.

Watching all seven cars in a consist is a beautiful sight indeed.

Problem is, they're big and heavy and it requires super big front end power to get all seven cars moving.  

Joe