Lionel & MTH: How to max S sales

Unfortunately, the two systems are too different to become "plug compatible" like DCC. 

 

Legacy needs an antenna of some kind to receive signals, while DCS transmits signal through the rails.  As I recall, Legacy uses a magnetic sensor on an axle for speed control while DCS uses a tach tape on a flywheel.  I'm sure there are some other hardware differences.

 

Lionel did go through the trouble to install DCC code in the Legacy firmware beginning with the SD70's.  At the time I'm sure they had higher hopes with the S-scale crowd.  The subject of the DCC 8-pin plug was brought up during DCC development, but was shot down by upper management.

 

DCS-PS3 is also DCC compatible, mainly because if MTH ever hoped to succeed in selling HO locomotives, DCS alone wasn't going to fly with the HO crowd.

 

So, DCC code is embedded within the two proprietary systems in S and will be the common denominator for the foreseeable future. 

 

Neither company is going to give up on their systems, both have considerable investments in them.  With the exception of some HO, MTH no longer sells "conventional" locomotives while Lionel appears to be moving towards their "Chief" systems for the more basic market.  (At least the Berks will have a switch for conventional operation...)

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, this is the brave new world of S.  I'm not particularly fond of the situation, but I'm trying to look at it realistically. 

 

For those who don't want to pay for the so-called "sparky stuff," I strongly encourage you look to American Models.  I'm sure Ron will be glad you did and it will motivate him to produce some more new products and/or upgraded older ones.

 

I don't find running the Legacy SD70's under DCC any different than my other DCC locomotives.  As far as the "toylike" features go, I turned smoke, cab chatter and brake squeal off.  They even run pretty well under DC with my particular 20 year old power system.  (I also turned off the smoke on my AM and SHS steam locomotives, no big deal...)

 

 

MTH remains to be seen.  Kinda hard to determine the good/bad/ugly without a locomotive.

 

We can pound our keyboards and refuse to purchase, then cry on how we're being abandoned by MTH and Lionel.

 

Rusty

They took down my thread on the interview in the S Gaugian.   This was because people were not being courteous in their comments.  I hope as this thread continues people will not cause this one to be deleted.  

To help maximise sales in S there is one fundamental area that lacks choice and this is in the current track systems, so here are two questions that will be of benefit for everyone to know the answers.

 

a) Does MTH have any plans to produce matching turnouts in various #'s to match their flexitrack?

 

 

b) Are Lionel aalso looking to produce turnouts greater than #3 in the Fastrack system?

 

I feel that these are two crucial areas that are currently holding back the advancement of S gauge sales, so can anyone pass comment on what these two manufacturers are planning for the future?

I totally agree about the track issue. IMHO, this should have been sorted out a long time ago... before they went after big buck engines. IF S was going to grow it needed to pull people from other scales. You can't do that without a good solid foundation (Track). Just to be clear, Lionel has cataloged two turnouts over the years (20"r and 27"r), but to my knowledge they have not yet delivered a single one. This is just another one of those Lionel decisions that just makes me scratch my head.

 

MTH has designs from SHS for a #5 and I think a #6 turnout. Again, that requires new tooling though so who know if or when they might see the light of day.

 

I don't know if long time S modelers realize how frustrating and off-putting this is to newer S modelers. It certainly played a large part in my decisions.

I don't know if this helps answer the Fastracks turnout question but Lionel is offering not just the 20" turnout but also a 27" turnout

6-49885 Left Hand Command Control/Remote control Switch

6-49886 Right Hand Command Control/Remote control Switch

 

--Rocco--

My earlier comments were not for Lionel and MTH to agree upon one stard as that will never happen.  Rather (taking Lionel for example) Have them make an engine that is Legacy ready thus reducing the cost.  If I want tLegacy I can either add it or Lionel should allow you at the order point list it under Built to Order.

 

--Rocco--

I think it is safe to say that the 20" turnout will be delivered first due to being compatible to the Flyer track system, but can anyone confirm if they are reality or fiction still?

 

What will be interesting to know also is at what stage is the 27" turnout. To keep it simple it should be at either design/build/shipping area but which one, or in fact is it at none of these of now and just an artists impression in a catalogue.

That's not gonna happen.

 

Rusty

I have mentioned this before, but I think it needs to be repeated here.  I have the DC ‘work around’ programing in my Y3 and it does not ‘run pretty well’.  It takes a lot of time and power to get all the on board electronics up and running.  It is also quite erratic.  It’s not supposed to smoke with the ‘fix’ but sometimes it does.  As often as not it gets locked up refusing to do anything.  I would expect any Legacy equipped engine to do the same with the DC ‘work around’.

 

All the extra electronics are awaiting the cutter’s torch once I decide if I’m going to make the DCC switch or stay with DC... until then, it just sits.

 

for what it’s worth,

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Rocco,

 

I'm in favor of making the electronic boards optional, but that's not going to happen since S is such a "minority" scale.  For those who like the electronics, go for it.  It's not for me.  I don't know how many others out there agree with me, but whatever you prefer is fine.  

 

And Rusty, I do indeed look at, and buy American Models motive power.  They run great and smoothly.  I have an AM GG1 that is one of the first issues, and it still runs great.  The new RS-11s are on my list.  If some day I'll go with some sort of system, it will probably by DCC, which is more universal (and cheaper... I think)

 

And by the way, the term "sparky stuff" is a term I have used since my days in engineering.  I wish I had made it up, though.

 

As far as the track issue goes, I used SHS flextrack with hand made turnouts on my present layout.  Not for everyone, for sure.  It would have been nicer to have been able to purchase ready made ones. 

The writing was on the wall so to speak with the other thread. I just got home and had a chance to read the article in the magazine, I was surprised at the length of both interviews.  

 

I was optimistic after reading Andy E statements about MTHs future with S.  His answers seem credible and he seems like a very to the point guy. Ultimately, if we buy it they will build more (no surprise there). Sounds like a lot more of SHS old catalog items will be in the 15/16 spread.  Some talk about looking into buildings as well.  Andy said tgat sales of the F3 will be heavily weighted when deciding on the possibility of newly tooled non SHS engines. 

 

The interview with Matt A was not as enlightening, but was still informative. He does state that "it's possible" that the mechanical reefers could be reintroduced. Admittedly this is an issue that I can not let die. Matt also states that other modern cars are an area that Lionel has been looking into "closely". I was surprised to read that pre orders/interest in the PE set was not as high as L hopped but they are betting on a sales kick after the PE sets are on the street and able to be seen.  I still feel like Lionel is pushing back from the s gauge table hard all the sudden, but it's possible that 2015 is just really a time for Lionel to "regroup" on the new/legacy pieces. 

 

There is plenty of other info in the article that I did not list here, it's worth picking up the mag to read it.  I wish all the issues of the S gaugian were this good.  Bill really did a nice job. 

 

Ben

"They took down my thread on the interview in the S Gaugian.   This was because people were not being courteous in their comments." 

 

  If they want to lose readers that's certainly the way to do it. I'd appreciate them respecting our posts a bit more, we are not children needing to be scolded. That attitude is why some folks don't bother participating in modeling forums so we lose valuable input. If they find dis courteous statements they should just deal with them and leave the substance of the threads for the readers to continue the discussion. 

 To answer the question posed.  It would make the most sense to build the locos with the proprietary control systems for the hi-rail crowd and with a DCC plug for the scale crowd. It's a simple matter to install one's own decoder either sound or no sound as desired. That's the way most  locos in every other scale are offered. If they are making us buy the proprietary parts just to make more bucks then it won't work because we'll just buy less of their product. These manufacturers have a hard time understanding that the customer is their boss not the other way around.......DaveB   

DaveB

Both MTH and Lionel have spent decades now building a support base of sales in loyal customers based of off their proprietary systems.  Lionel vs MTH.  That's what they both know and it works for them.  That's why they keep selling it, I don't think you (S scale straight DCC compatable) are going to get these two to change their stratigies.  These are two companies that are historically heavily invested in technologies other than DCC.

They are not interested in spending money on pleasing 1 of 10 people, when they have already spent money to please 9 of 10 people for many years.  It's what they know. 

Ben

I agree with NotInWI, Bill's article in S Gaugian was very well written, very informative and well worth the time to track it down and read it.  

 

Little Tommy

Jerry, I too have a pretty good fleet of AM stuff.  I can run straight DC or DCC with the selection of my block toggles.  I've converted only two of my AM locomotives to DCC and am not in any hurry to convert the rest of the fleet.  Most of the time I run straight DC.

 

When I buy a locomotive, it's for the locomotive, not the whiz-bang electronics inside.  As long as it looks good and runs well, that's all I'm worried about.  If it's got the electronics, so be it.

 

The only exception I made was for my PBL Shay where I went full tilt on, only because I have a history with the prototype.  If it wasn't for that history, I wouldn't have even bought the model.

 

That's the way SHS sold their stuff, but MTH (or Lionel) is not SHS.  That is the current reality.  Plus, if MTH didn't buy SHS, the tooling would most likely be sitting in a warehouse gathering rust or have been disposed of for scrap.

 

SHS was probably the most flexible of any train manufacturer, but that train has left the depot and isn't coming back.  At least MTH is apparently now going to catalog cars with scale wheels and couplers installed.

 

AM seems to have no interest in electronics, save for the 3-position reverse board.  I don't recall even seeing a DCC plug in any of my AM loco's.

 

 

Agreed, Ben.

 

Lionel went trough a surprising (at least to me) amount of effort to install (and get it into the SD70's before they shipped) DCC code into Legacy.  Is it for the techno-folks who like to tweak a myriad of CV's for ultimate performance?  No.  But, it suits the basic DCC user. 

 

They could have just as easily said "we can't be bothered."  Of course, the whole landscape with Lionel's approach to Flyer's changed for now, but at the time it was a good faith effort. 

 

Rusty

"They are not interested in spending money on pleasing 1 of 10 people, when they have already spent money to please 9 of 10 people for many years.  It's what they know."

 

 Haha, they know proprietary control systems but not basic math!  If 50% of the hobby is HO scale, 20% N, 10% O, and 5% S scales then even if they capture every S scaler they are only pleasing 1 out of 20 people.If they make something that just 1/4 of the HO and N guys would buy they could easily quadruple  their sales. One can approach S as a perfect size for a model railroader to work in or as an out of date toy train line but one has a future and one is dying out.What they have been doing is obviously not moved S scale beyond that 5% number despite S's perfect size so a new approach can't hurt.....DaveB

Even during the glory years of the mid 1990's to mid 2000's, (and SHS would sell you a locomotive in any configuration you wanted: AC/DC/DCC/DCC with sound, even scale wheels w/a 3-position reverse unit if so desired)  modelers weren't signing up to S in droves. 

 

If they were, S wouldn't be in this position today, even with the Kader fiasco.

 

No, the excuse for modelers in other scales will always be, "I've got too much invested in..."

 

Rusty

Let me just observe that HO didn't grow from a minor scale in the immediate post WWII period by waiting for Gilbert to promote it's HO line of trains or Lionel to expand their HO trains in the mid 1950's, but because modelers embraced smaller manufacturers like Bowser, Tyco, Athearn and Varney.

 

I, personally, never expected Lionel or MTH to make anything but toy trains, with maybe just a dabble of scale much like the HO "Scale" offerings of Gilbert in the mid 1950's, while their main products were S gauge toys.

 

American Models offerings in DC scale are less expensive than their AF compatible trains and they can be made to accept DCC at a fraction of the cost of a Legacy equipped Lionel engine.  

 

Little Tommy

 

 

 

"No, the excuse for modelers in other scales will always be, "I've got too much invested in..." "

 

   It will take some work and time, but if they make it easy to switch guys will come around. As it is they see no strong dedication to S scale by either of the big players and see no desire for their dollars so they spend them else where. Existing equipment can  be sold, I had lots of O scale models when I got interested in S scale and I've sold most of them over the years buying S stuff when I can find it. Like Andre I'm not at the mercy of the S manufacturers so I also buy HO and N stuff and will eventually sell the losers of the scale battle off :> What's telling to me is that I meet lots of folks who tell me they would be modeling S scale if there was a better supply of products and I never hear anyone say they prefer a smaller or larger scale despite the better selection of S products? This situation  needs to be fixed. .........DaveB

"I, personally, never expected Lionel or MTH to make anything but toy trains, with maybe just a dabble of scale much like the HO "Scale" offerings of Gilbert in the mid 1950's, while their main products were S gauge toys.

 

American Models offerings in DC scale are less expensive than their AF compatible trains and they can be made to accept DCC at a fraction of the cost of a Legacy equipped Lionel engine. '

 

   Great observations. Gilbert could have gone the way of Athearn and become the largest HO scale seller but they missed the opportunity. Toy train companies just don't seem to understand what it takes to sell scale trains. Atlas seems to be learning the process in O scale but apparently they don't want to rock the S scale boat. 

  As it is now American models is the only one of the larger companies that I'll spend money on , they are trying to do it right and their new RS 11 shows it......DaveB

Of that there is no argument.  I've never been dissatisfied with an AM Locomotive.

 

Yet, for some reason, AM has not been able to capitalize on the S drought from Lionel or MTH.

 

Perhaps there is something to all the bells and whistles Lionel and MTH offers.

 

Rock the boat?  Atlas isn't even anywhere near the S waters. 

 

When Atlas had their own forum and announced Atlas O around the turn of the century, I asked about considering Atlas S.  The answer was: No.

 

Rusty

"When Atlas had their own forum and announced Atlas O around the turn of the century, I asked about considering Atlas S.  The answer was: No.'

 

   I guess they are already spread too thin? If they'd come into S with the same type of products they make in HO and O scales they could really give the scale a boost. Too bad they don't have any S scale guys in their corporate structure....DaveB

I think it's a vicious circle syndrome:

 

From the mfg'er: Not enough market, so no venture capital being expended (on new items/new tooling).  And for sure no new major mfg'ers getting in other than who's already in.

 

From the typical hobbiest: No capital being expended from the mfg'ers (on new items/new tooling), not enough variety available on the new and secondary market, so I ain't gettin' in.

 

Bottom line: As it sits, there just isn't enough in S to noticeably draw away from the more popular scales: HO and N. There's not even a low-hassle/decent track system. (In HO there's Peco, Atlas, Walthers, etc.)

 

So, given the current situation, the mfg'ers would have to GROW the S scale market, and if there WAS a trickle of new product that started coming out, now I'm in the "I've got too much invested" to jump ship to S again. 

 

Further, I'm not getting younger. I had to make up my mind and go forward in a solid direction if I intend to have a hope of enjoying the trains that I want.

 

Duplicate my circumstances many thousand fold and you'll better see the problem.

 

Likely that Lionel and MTH will stay in their "comfort zones" with S and ride it out until it either makes money, or they call a halt to the losses.

 

Wish it weren't that way. (But that's the way I see it.)

I think it's a pretty big stretch to assume that either MTH or Lionel are really all that interested in maximizing S scale. Lionel bought up AF in the sixties partly so that they could gain access to patents, and also to prevent anyone else from getting AF and possibly promoting it well enough that it could threaten Lionel's future market share. With MTH and SHS, I think the idea of selling trains in O, HO, and also S had a certain appeal to MTH, plus the fact that the tooling was tied up in Chinese red tape, gave MTH some leverage to make the cost of their acquisition more favorable. Neither company wants to see S grow at the expense of their own product lines, all they want is for it to sell just enough to keep it from costing them too much money in the long run, while not being appealing to their competitors (like Atlas).

 

Bill in FtL

"Further, I'm not getting younger. I had to make up my mind and go forward in a solid direction if I intend to have a hope of enjoying the trains that I want."

 

   Hi Andre, Yeah, I'm at the age where I need to make a decision too. The main reason I'm still waiting for the S companies to commit or not  is that I might move to a smaller house ( too much upkeep and yard work here) If so I don't want a half built layout that won't fit my new space so I'm reluctant to start on a new layout right now. Logically I should sell my S stuff and keep my HO or N stuff but I do like the size of S scale so am keeping my hopes up. Once I know the size of my long term train space I'll be better able to sort out the options. I could still build an S layout in a smaller space but just not the same S layout I'd build if staying here.One thing I've noticed is the lack of new S product is keeping the price of used S stuff high so selling S stuff to buy HO should be painless......DaveB

Andre and Dave both make good points, particularly about "graying."

 

I've always maintained that S was a tough scale to get into and lately it's been a lot tougher.  And it's always been hard to compete with the candy stores of HO and N.

 

S is about at the same point it was when I jumped in 30 years ago.  Not exactly what I call progress.  But, for the time being, I'm still in for the long haul and if my future also includes downsizing, I'll make the decision what to do then.

 

Rusty

Well Andre, you aren't the only one that sees it that way... I am looking at the same picture.

 

Unfortunate, but in reality I think there are 2 kinds of people interested in S these days. 1. Those that are able to make due with what has been done because they love the size. Or 2. Those that love the size, but can't live with what has been done so they leave for another scale.

 

"What problems have you had with American Models Track?  It seems "easy-peasy" to me."

 

  I've never tied AM track but as far as I know Tomalco and Shinohara are still available and both a fine product. They were offering turnouts in Shinohara at one time, I build my own so don't keep up on the track choices. Most converts from the major scales would not have a problem with the S flextrack selection and many of them would know how to build their own turnouts either by hand or using a Fastracks jig so I think the lack of affordable and in stock S scale rolling stock is a more important factor  ....DaveB

Getting back to the OP's original intent...

 

To maximize S sales:

 

#1) Deliver the product in a timely manner.

 

#2) See #1.

 

Rusty

"Deliver the product in a timely manner"

 

   Just in case it wasn't clear let's repeat it Deliver the product in a timely manner.              I've bought one of every version of the Des Plaines modern boxcars and would have done the same if any PFE mechanical reefers were ever made. Same goes for bulkhead flat cars, centerbeam lumber cars, railgons, 60 foot boxcars, etc. I have no need for heritage paint schemes or hirail  locos though. I'm the same as most scale modelers in any scale, not hard to please but won't buy what I don't need. That's where the S companies need to do some research on the hobby as a whole and not just on the toy train aspect as S scale could be much larger than a branch of an old toy train line......DaveB  

Leaving S is not an option for me. I had a fling with HO back in the Model Motoring slot car days when most of HO was POS. Now in retirement, HO is too small for me to detail scenery, etc. Vision and dexterity is not what it used to be. N scale and Z is out of the question. O scale has a nice selection of product but  is too large and for me to replicate my layout I would have to annex the neighbors basement. The AM track system is a good fit for me with enough realism and availability of various product. As far as rolling stock and motive power, if I add all my collectible Gilbert Flyer to the SHS, AM and Flyonel, there is not a reason to want for much more as I have difficulty getting to what I have. I'm satisfied with whatever is produced.

 

Rich

Hi Little Tommy:

 

I should have been more clear. I was modeling using scale sized rail (cd 83 and some cd 100). The primary problem was no readily usable switches in cd 83. One mfg'er that offered switches in cd 83 resulted in each switch requiring much tinkering/reworking/re-gauging to get it to function correctly, not to mention solder joints that would break.  Way too much frustration. I'd been better off to learn to scratch build my own switches... but I didn't want to invest what little hobby time I do have in learning yet another aspect of scratch building, only this time scratch building switches.

 

 

You guys are so depressed about what is out there new in S it seems like there is now way for you to see your way.  For me, I have to say there is plenty of stuff coming out as I don't have the ability to buy everything that is produced now.  Because I just turned 70 the train budget is limited to $1,500 a year unless I sell things I don't want at train shows to increase my limit.  

 

Since most of the writers here seem to be S-scale people I really feel bad because I believe Lionel and MTH are going to be limiting sale options because of the size of the market.  

 

I think all of us in the hobby can enjoy running our trains and working on our layout without any new production.  You scalers have the ability and skills to repaint and adapt older rolling stock that you already have.  A Flyer guy, like me, can always find items for sale at shows and online auctions that I might want.

 

While S might never grow much it is still the scale I prefer since I have been running it since I got my K5 at three. We need to appreciate what we have and what might be produced in the future. 

"I think all of us in the hobby can enjoy running our trains and working on our layout without any new production.  You scalers have the ability and skills to repaint and adapt older rolling stock that you already have.  A Flyer guy, like me, can always find items for sale at shows and online auctions that I might want.'

 

  Hi Bill, That's a very good point. If I decide to go with the stuff I have and can get now I could still make a pretty large S layout. Maybe I should just not worry about what is not being made now and work on a layout till I run out of things to build then worry about what is or isn't being made then?  .....DaveB

Bill

I really don't want to run fright cars from the 40's era behind my SD70s and ES44s.  So yes...I do need to wait on new production. 

Ben

I would love to see both MTH and Lionel make available their motive power in DC.  I think this would make the sense to most everyone out there. If you run straight dc you are set, If you like the TMCC/Legacy you can add TMCC to the locomotives and if you run ac it is easy enough to add an electronic reversing board to the engine. Just please leave us enough room in the shell to put the boards inside. I have done these conversions in a number of engines including Flyonel and American Models, but have not yet seen MTH.

Ray

Rayin"S"

Seriously, I don't think DC only and options for their control system will ever be made by MTH or Lionel. Remember almost none of the non scale guys use DC or even DCC. Non scale guys make up 80% of the market.  In my meetings with them they never brought up DC or optional platforms in an engine.  I think they would see them as too expensive to offer lots of options. 

 

NotInWI

I asked Lionel about more modern freight cars and the best I could get out of them was, "Modern cars in particular are an area we have looked into closely."  MTH seemed to be satisfied with SHS past production and I don't know if they produced any modern cars.

 

I guess I enjoy running my SD70s and ES44ers in spite of what is behind them.  I did make up 2 cars with FREDs or "end of train devices" because these engines would never pull a caboose in their regular work.  I wrote about making a FRED in the Roundhouse Column in S Gaugain.     

 

Maybe some of the smaller companies will produce modern cars if the big guys won't. That would be nice if they make a version for high rail as well as scale.  

You can try my "fool proof method" of getting new commercial product.  Every time I found a product that I "had to have" that wasn't being produced (a single sheathed USRA Boxcar, a Double Sheathed boxcar with a fishbelly underframe, a Wood Sided Reefer with metal ends for example) I scratchbuilt the item out of sheet plastic, structural shapes and Grandt Line Detail Parts.  Within 6 months of the completion of my project, the product was available commercially (and usually better looking than my effort). 

 

I may be singlehandedly responsible for the lack of new commercial product, since I haven't scratchbuilt anything in the last 6 years. I better get to work!

 

Little Tommy