Lionel announces 2 way communication with new 4 digit addressing!

Yes this opens up a LOT of possibilities down the road.  Can’t wait to talk to Dave and the Lionel folks at York about this!   The LUG meeting just got more interesting!  

Thanks for posting Marty, I'll have to take a look and listen to Dave. Even though I'm not ordering a Base3/Cab3 ATM, it's always good to have some extra knowledge with what's up and going on.

BTW Dave did mention a Cab2 update 1.72 to to correct some bugs with the Legacy Crane car and add some code for Cab2 to support Bluetooth and RF w/Base3.

I still have to upgrade mine to the lastest. I think I'm at 1.62 or something there. Whatever was the upgrade after the Niagara's I think. I'll have to check that out tonight. Always good to be up to date.

I dunno, I already have 3 kids that talk back.....😐😉

This is great to hear for the folks investing in the new base 3. I hope Lionel has other goodies in store for them.

@MartyE posted:

BTW Dave did mention a Cab2 update 1.72 to to correct some bugs with the Legacy Crane car and add some code for Cab2 to support Bluetooth and RF w/Base3.

Hasn't made it to the upgrade page yet.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hasn't made it to the upgrade page yet.

No it's not there yet.  Later in the year.

Thanks @MartyE for posting this, I heard that last night and now I can understand their hype on this new radio board for the locomotives it’s gone from just a receiver, to receiver and transmitter. While I think most can agree that a 4 digit address is a nice convenience it didn’t make a lot of sense as a hyped up new feature. Now now that it also mean 2 way communication it means a lot more.

The Class A looks and sounds great! Glad I ordered one of them. I should probably order a Base3.

So the Base 3 will finally do what DCS has done for 20 years? Cool.

I, for one, am excited about the availability of real-time fuel/water levels. Couple that to the force draw bar and momentum settings for dynamic fuel consumption. Would be cool if there was an option to have the engine stop when it runs out of fuel (a boiler explosion might be too dramatic in the case of depleted water levels).

Sounds like they're going to put their longer range BlueTooth to use for the return channel.  I can't see any way they send it back like TMCC/Legacy given that the signal going out is continuous.

I am curious really just how well Bluetooth will work in a large setting like the NJ-HR layout...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sounds like they're going to put their longer range BlueTooth to use for the return channel.  I can't see any way they send it back like TMCC/Legacy given that the signal going out is continuous.

I am curious really just how well Bluetooth will work in a large setting like the NJ-HR layout...

I'd think the return data wouldn't be required for locomotive operation. I mean if you run these new 4 digit locos on a CAB 1 or 2 the return data has no where to go but the engine will still be tuned into the track signal and run normally.

I still see some advantages to using a sensor track such as programmable ques when a locomotives arrives at a sensor track location.

Wow, you all are way out of my league, I call this smart technology and a really cool way to operate our trains and Im very interested in this new Cab 3, so, in a layman’s terms Question, will cab 3 send out a better signal for our Cab 2 remotes to keep in sync with our engines walking around our layouts? Sometimes my cab 2 seems lost when I try accessing the trains in certain parts of my layout area. This is exciting times in model railroading, great topic. Happy Railroading Everyone

Since they'll be 2 way communication I wonder if we'll now be able to load sound files or control board firmware. That would be nice.

Is it possible then that a return information would be sent back via a different carrier wave? I would really hope that they don’t use that questionable off the shelf Bluetooth module for that. And with all this talk about a completely different radio board would mean that somehow they plan to use something other than BLE

Glad that I ordered a base 3, looking forward to seeing what it will do!

@MartyE posted:

BTW Dave did mention a Cab2 update 1.72 to to correct some bugs with the Legacy Crane car and add some code for Cab2 to support Bluetooth and RF w/Base3.

Thanks for posting this @MartyE although the main thing I was interested in, apart from seeing how the CAB3 app will work, was the CAB2 update to deal with a Legacy crane issue. Dave did not say what that issue is but I think I have got it; both the rotation and boom control on my SP version have gone bad - in particular the “rotation” is now full quarter turns when I press the boom control! I have not seen any posts on this and was thinking a new control board in the crane might be required, which is hardly an easy fix.

@Hancock52 posted:

Thanks for posting this @MartyE although the main thing I was interested in, apart from seeing how the CAB3 app will work, was the CAB2 update to deal with a Legacy crane issue. Dave did not say what that issue is but I think I have got it; both the rotation and boom control on my SP version have gone bad - in particular the “rotation” is now full quarter turns when I press the boom control! I have not seen any posts on this and was thinking a new control board in the crane might be required, which is hardly an easy fix.

Legacy 1.7 and crane car discussed with screenshots https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...0#159660139206873590

@Vernon Barry posted:

Legacy 1.7 and crane car discussed with screenshots https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...0#159660139206873590

Thanks, I have been though that thread now. My operating problems seem to me to be worse than the ones you found, especially the way the cab lurches instead of turning smoothly, and the car worked fine initially under my existing CAB 2 software, which I believe is in fact v. 1.7. However I will check this again and try your settings. I had not paid attention to the specific keypad icons and whether they have changed from what I thought were the default crane mode ones.

I'll wait for Dave to explain how there are managing the 2 way communication.  Anything from other sources is just hearsay. 

The Cab3 app does look pretty good.  I do hope they use some tactile feedback for labor, and some of the control increments.

@zhubl posted:

Is it possible then that a return information would be sent back via a different carrier wave? I would really hope that they don’t use that questionable off the shelf Bluetooth module for that. And with all this talk about a completely different radio board would mean that somehow they plan to use something other than BLE

It's hard to imagine they're trying to send the return communication via the track, look at the issues on many layouts with MTH doing that.  As Marty says, it would be nice to hear from Dave what they're using, but I'll be very amazed if they're attempting to send it back as a track signal.

@Hancock52 posted:

Thanks, I have been though that thread now. My operating problems seem to me to be worse than the ones you found, especially the way the cab lurches instead of turning smoothly, and the car worked fine initially under my existing CAB 2 software, which I believe is in fact v. 1.7. However I will check this again and try your settings. I had not paid attention to the specific keypad icons and whether they have changed from what I thought were the default crane mode ones.

Sad to say, I'm 98% sure your issue is not a software issue, but rather a failure in the crane car.  The lurching suggests a mechanical issue.

After watching Dave's presentation, I put my order in for a Base3.  I can't believe I'm pondering the retirement my CAB-1s!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sad to say, I'm 98% sure your issue is not a software issue, but rather a failure in the crane car.  The lurching suggests a mechanical issue.

Yeah, I thought that a mechanical issue might be the case. I noticed, without taking anything apart yet that, oddly, the main large gear under the cab does not seem to turn with the cab itself. In the past I have studied the exploded parts diagram for the previous TMCC versions and had one such crane apart, so I have a general idea of what engages with and turns what. But yet another voyage of Lionel discovery seems to be in store.

I am happy with my CAB2 and was discounting the CAB3.  Now I may have to consider getting a CAB3 but I will wait to hear about some real world experiences.

Keep in mind that the 2-way addressing is only if you buy new Legacy locomotives, not for any of your existing fleet.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Keep in mind that the 2-way addressing is only if you buy new Legacy locomotives, not for any of your existing fleet.

Good point, John. And don’t forget that also goes for 4-digit ID’s

@Apples55 posted:

Good point, John. And don’t forget that also goes for 4-digit ID’s

Naturally.

The sad part is, with some software work, they could have extended the benefit of 4-digit addressing to existing TMCC/Legacy locomotives.  Simply by providing a translation feature that translates 2-digit TMCC addresses to 4-digit addresses, they could allow you to use 4-digit addresses to map to the full cab number for existing locomotives.

Now, that would be a worthwhile feature and would likely change my mind about getting the BASE3!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Naturally.

The sad part is, with some software work, they could have extended the benefit of 4-digit addressing to existing TMCC/Legacy locomotives.  Simply by providing a translation feature that translates 2-digit TMCC addresses to 4-digit addresses, they could allow you to use 4-digit addresses to map to the full cab number for existing locomotives.

Now, that would be a worthwhile feature and would likely change my mind about getting the BASE3!

You mean like selecting an engine by Cab#?

Duh, that's something I never looked into, I guess it's already there and I don't need to buy the BASE3!

Marty;

Like John, I was unaware of addressing by cab# - I will have to give that method a try. While that will help addressing an engine without knowing the ID number, since you still use the Cab2 to address the engine, it is still limited by the 2-digit limit when loading the engine data into the Cab2 base. My biggest problem is that I am pretty much out of space on my Cab2 (caused in part by the proliferation of sound cars).

Don't need to buy the Base3?!!

Saves me about $500, plus shipping and tax.

For many of us, two way communication is not a major thing.  Indeed, I frequently pick up my Universal Remote for the newer Legacy engines, LionChief 2.0+ LionChief, LionChief+ locos because it is so simple and reliable.  For those with complex or very large layouts, it's probably a different story.  The older I get, the more simplicity appeals .

@MartyE posted:

You mean like selecting an engine by Cab#?

Works for me. I just tried it out. I entered a 4 digit cab number and it recognizes the locomotive. Thanks!
DK

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Keep in mind that the 2-way addressing is only if you buy new Legacy locomotives, not for any of your existing fleet.

Thanks, John.  Like Alan, you saved me $500.  Are you sure you aren’t going to dream up something to let old engines talk back?

Luckily I model the Rutland. I have a fleet of 11 rd. Steamers. They all have 2 digit numbers. Only their switchers had 3 digit numbers and both my 0-8-0’s are MTH.

@Danr posted:

Thanks, John.  Like Alan, you saved me $500.  Are you sure you aren’t going to dream up something to let old engines talk back?

That  ain't happening I suspect.  That requires modification of the code on the RCMC boards, there's only one entity that has access to that code.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

That  ain't happening I suspect.  That requires modification of the code on the RCMC boards, there's only one entity that has access to that code.

I believe John is right on the money. When they first announced the Cab3, I asked that question and Dave Olson promptly replied that it would not be happening for technical reasons. Made an upgrade to the Cab3 much less appealing to me!!!

I am more intrigued by what they are NOT telling us what the new Base3 / Cab3 App can do.

While the two way communication sounds neat, it seems to be limited in its functionality.  Hopefully that will change in time and it will greatly expand what Lionel can do.  I am still satisfied to keep my Cab2 and wait until the Cab3 comes out to see what it offers.  I am still not thrilled about using my phone to control trains.  I prefer a dedicated remote.  The most important reason is... the phone can interrupt the app if you receive a phone call.  Text messages can also cause issues.  You can try and see this very problem right now.  Connect the Lionel app to a loc using blue tooth.  While controlling the train, have someone call your phone.  See how it interrupts the app.   The phone app needs the user to answer or decline the phone call.  That can cause a problem if you were in the middle of sending  a command.  I do not intend to buy a dedicated smart phone just to run trains, might as well buy a dedicated remote.  This may not be an issue to some, and I hope the Cab 3 works well.  If Lionel comes out with a new dedicated remote, i would probably buy it.  For now, I will enjoy reading the users who get it and talk about its features.

I’m not sure dedicated remotes will ever come back in the way we’re used to. You can buy old refurbed iPhones for less than $100 on eBay all day. I doubt you’ll ever see a new dedicated handheld remote that cheap.

I think you miss the point Norm.  It's not the cost of the phone or remote, it's the user experience.

I suppose my ‘user experience’ will be one of exploring new features in an awesome new engine. Im really looking forward to it. This upcoming train season should be a lot of fun. I’m sure there will a few concerned Train Karens standing by ready to express their concerns though!

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I suppose my ‘user experience’ will be one of exploring new features in an awesome new engine. Im really looking forward to it. This upcoming train season should be a lot of fun. I’m sure there will a few concerned Train Karens standing by ready to express their concerns though!

Well, it's always fun to fire up a new engine.

Hmm, interesting with the 4 digit on the Cab2. I still need to take the extended Legacy courses that I haven't been able to get to at York because was unaware, wasn't held, or I was at Strasburg, lol. Well, rest assured, one of these days.

I am interested in this !!

Jerry

The great thing about the forum is there is always something that will peak your interest Jerry. Even if it may not at first, eventually it will happen. I've been following a different topic of which I have zero skills to do what is being done, but it is fascinating none the less.

I agree, Dave. There is an amazing amount of information.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

You can buy old refurbed iPhones for less than $100 on eBay all day. I doubt you’ll ever see a new dedicated handheld remote that cheap.

That's because they're not the same thing.

Mike

I don't know if I ever will need 4 digit addressing, given how small my collection ever will be, but it is nice to have that. I like the idea of the two way communication for future engines. The fact that this is delayed until next year and MTH stuff is an unknown as to when it will show up, my decision to wire my layout for conventional block control with an eye towards adding Cab3 and DC later, sounds like a sound one at this point.

@Joe Fermani posted:

Connect the Lionel app to a loc using blue tooth.  While controlling the train, have someone call your phone.  See how it interrupts the app.   The phone app needs the user to answer or decline the phone call.  That can cause a problem if you were in the middle of sending  a command.  I do not intend to buy a dedicated smart phone just to run trains, might as well buy a dedicated remote.

Fone Foamers around here will emphasize that a spare old smartphone without telephone service is very inexpensive compared to a handheld remote of late, and that reusing a phone instead of throwing it in the trash is very trendy.  This doesn't appeal to you?

There are many good things to use a smartphone for, even an old one.  Controlling anything that moves is not one of them however.

Why does a real-world remote controller for 1:1 scale railroading look like this:

  and not this?:

Mike

Mike, what's that supposed to mean? Are you trying to be rude?

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Mike, what's that supposed to mean? Are you trying to be rude?

No not at all.  I'm sorry if it's taken that way.

It's a straight-forward technical ergonomics  question.

There is a reason that real-world railroaders don't use phones to control switching moves from the ground, even though it's technically possible.  Getting the desired action from a dedicated controller is much more guaranteed, hence safer.

Granted, millions of dollars in locomotives, equipment, cargo or bulk, and people's lives, deserve more attention than their scale equivalents.  And precise control is definitely safety critical at 1:1 scale when it's probably not at 1:48.

However isn't a layout with $1,200 locomotives also at significant risk, at a smaller scale, to the equipment owner if the operator can't avoid a wreck because a phone is a clumsy controller in emergency situations?

Mike

@Lou1985 posted:

So the Base 3 will finally do what DCS has done for 20 years? Cool.

So the Base 3 will finally do what DCS has done (badly) for 20 years? - there, fixed for you.

To be fair, I will point out that the 2-way communications protocol has been a known source of difficulties for DCS since its introduction.  And I think Legacy also had some issues with this initially.

It will be interesting to see how this feature actually works in practice.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

George

@G3750 posted:

So the Base 3 will finally do what DCS has done (badly) for 20 years? - there, fixed for you.

To be fair, I will point out that the 2-way communications protocol has been a known source of difficulties for DCS since its introduction.  And I think Legacy also had some issues with this initially.

It will be interesting to see how this feature actually works in practice.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

George

I've had 0 issue with DCS or TMCC/Legacy. There are many advantages to two way communication, such as:

Being able to load sound files to a locomotive without having to send the board back to the manufacturer.

Being able to upload the correct software to the boards in a locomotive if there is an issue without having to send the board back to the manufacturer.

Being able to get run time readouts from the locomotive (mileage, hours of operation, etc).

Being able to read the locomotive on the track and have it's information populate in the remote.

Legacy has never had 2 way communication, the Base 3 and new locomotive electronics from these past two catalogs and on will be the first to have 2 way communication. So far it looks like run time and remote population will be a feature of new Lionel locomotives with the Base 3. As of now the ability to change locomotive sound files and software is still locked. That's a HUGE disadvantage vs DCS or DCC, and something Lionel should consider addressing.

I like that 4-digit cab addressing has finally come to O gauge. It has been available in DCC for some time (depending on decoders/system). I was hoping to see that in some future iteration of DCS. Supposedly, the DCS hardware platform is more capable than the initial software/firmware implementation.

@MartyE posted:

On last evenings Demos with Dave, Dave demo'd the new Class A.  This looks to be an exciting new engine from all new tooling.

He also mentioned with the new 4 digit addressing comes 2 way communication.  The engine will provide the parameters back to the Base 3 Cab3 App to present a picture of the engine based on SKU# (internet connection need to pull from Lionel), real time fuel / water levels, name and road number without a sensor track!

I for one am really getting excited to see what else can be done with this.  Dave showed some of the Cab3 app features as well but will do a dedicated Cab3 App show later.  Looks like we'll have to wait until next year to get the Base 3 and App as Dave said he wants it to be delivered without issues.

I latched on to one item that Marty mentioned and that was "without a sensor track".  Well, there's a decade of engines out there with IR and I hope 2-way communication isn't motivation to abandon that group of customer's that made that investment.  I see IRV2 discontinued and I suspect the worst.  I hope I'm wrong and Lionel continues to support/produce sensor track going forward.  I'm not a FasTrac customer and really loved the IRV2.

I think it would be cool if I could use the CAB-3 app to scan my yard and auto-populate a quick roster of available engines to run. It could use the camera to pick out cab numbers or Bluetooth to pick up newer Legacy engines and present me with a set of engines to run.

Might be cool if it could say “I see an engine that hasn’t been added to the Base yet, would you like to add it now?”

I wonder if Lionel could come up with some type of RF tags you could place on or near accessories that the app can interact with. Maybe that’s been discussed already?

@LionelAG posted:

I latched on to one item that Marty mentioned and that was "without a sensor track".  Well, there's a decade of engines out there with IR and I hope 2-way communication isn't motivation to abandon that group of customer's that made that investment.  I see IRV2 discontinued and I suspect the worst.  I hope I'm wrong and Lionel continues to support/produce sensor track going forward.  I'm not a FasTrac customer and really loved the IRV2.

I was pretty disappointed to see them discontinue the IRV2.  One does have to wonder how well the LCS line will survive in the long term.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was pretty disappointed to see them discontinue the IRV2.  One does have to wonder how well the LCS line will survive in the long term.

They did add 3 PDI connections to the Base3 so I would suspect there is a future at least near term.

@MartyE posted:

They did add 3 PDI connections to the Base3 so I would suspect there is a future at least near term.

Many they'll fix the software bug with the CSM2 and switch positions so at least I can use that capability.

I just remembered I still have to watch demos with Dave. I completely forgot that was one of the other videos to watch that was hanging out there. Now it is sitting in my history so I can pick it up later. Thanks again Marty for posting.

tying all the control system protocols together will be awesome but as for the interface, I would prefer a dedicated real world type remote. Personally, I look forward to leaving the phone world behind when I enter the train room.

I watched the video, and I'm pretty excited. Not that I wasn't before, but I'm much more excited now for the Base-3 and Cab-3. I already have an old I-phone that I will use to operate my trains. Plus, the Cab-3/Base-3 combo will work with all my current Legacy locos, Vision Reefers, and Powermaster. Hopefully Lionel will put the 4-digit addressing feature in all the new locos in the next year or so.

@MartyE posted:

On last evenings Demos with Dave, Dave demo'd the new Class A.  This looks to be an exciting new engine from all new tooling.

He also mentioned with the new 4 digit addressing comes 2 way communication.  The engine will provide the parameters back to the Base 3 Cab3 App to present a picture of the engine based on SKU# (internet connection need to pull from Lionel), real time fuel / water levels, name and road number without a sensor track!

I for one am really getting excited to see what else can be done with this.  Dave showed some of the Cab3 app features as well but will do a dedicated Cab3 App show later.  Looks like we'll have to wait until next year to get the Base 3 and App as Dave said he wants it to be delivered without issues.

Well, I finally got around to finishing this video this weekend. I'm impressed with the Class A(how it looks) as well as the 2 way communication though I'm not ready for a Base 3 yet. It's always good when Dave goes through all the in's and out's(as well as people asking him also). I think I'll watch it again just to refresh some things. 4th quarter for the Class A as well as #90 he said he thinks. See what comes. Thanks again for posting Marty.

For those that prefer a dedicated remote once base3 comes out you may find legacy remotes for sale on the used market

Is the cab3 app out yet all I get is the icab from the App Store

@trainbob posted:

Is the cab3 app out yet all I get is the icab from the App Store

No. The release date is still pending.

Thanks H1000 will the app be free. Just watched a video from Lionel and they said it will control Legacy locomotives with Bluetooth which will be good because the LionChief app lacks some features of Legacy

I'd bet money that the CAB3 app won't be free.

I think it was said that you can dowload and use the bluetooth (cab3-b) side of the app for free. The cab3-l side will be included with the purchase of a base3 via a redemption code. It would also be offered for sale for those users with a base2 and wifi module.

Thanks guys

@G3750 posted:

So the Base 3 will finally do what DCS has done (badly) for 20 years? - there, fixed for you.

To be fair, I will point out that the 2-way communications protocol has been a known source of difficulties for DCS since its introduction.  And I think Legacy also had some issues with this initially.

It will be interesting to see how this feature actually works in practice.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

George

My concern as well.  Lionel locomotives have had numerous documented quality issues, as seen on this forum, but the operating system has always been solid.  (And they seem to be cleaning up the QC issues on the locos, a positive sign.). Hopefully that aspect of Legacy doesn’t change.  We will see.  

@Ray Lombardo posted:

My concern as well.  Lionel locomotives have had numerous documented quality issues, as seen on this forum, but the operating system has always been solid.  (And they seem to be cleaning up the QC issues on the locos, a positive sign.). Hopefully that aspect of Legacy doesn’t change.  We will see.  

It's a fairly logical conclusion that addition of the 2-way communication (most likely via Bluetooth) will not affect the current operation of their newer locomotives with this feature nor the operating system that runs them.  If you buy a new 4 digit addressable engine, it still has to be backward compatible with the oldest TMCC systems out there which do not support 2-way communication. The "talk back" communication from the engine is not required to operate it, it's just a nice add-on feature for those who can use it.

@H1000 posted:

It's a fairly logical conclusion that addition of the 2-way communication (most likely via Bluetooth) will not affect the current operation of their newer locomotives with this feature nor the operating system that runs them.  If you buy a new 4 digit addressable engine, it still has to be backward compatible with the oldest TMCC systems out there which do not support 2-way communication. The "talk back" communication from the engine is not required to operate it, it's just a nice add-on feature for those who can use it.

You always strike me as one of the more knowledgeable posters here and I see your point, but sometimes in practice what is logical or what should be the case doesn’t always work out that way.  I certainly hope you are correct.

I truly think there is no major cause for concern.  It would be truly insane for the BASE3 to break all previous Legacy and TMCC stuff, that would be a massive product fail!  I simply can't see that happening.

Well, I imagine that Dave will be doing more and more Base3 stuff in future episodes, probably not every episode, but maybe one in three, one in five depending on how frequent his Demos with Dave are. If he does it weekly, would probably a few months or more down the road.