LIONEL ANNOUNCES A NEW 2018 VISIONLINE LOCOMOTIVE....!!!

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Greg Houser posted:

In my opinion, it was a mistake to show this engine before a final production sample was available.  Cosmetically, the engine running today was missing some details.  With 5 smoke units and the new effects, I wouldn't be surprised with a $2100 street price.  If it were me selling one, I think showing off an actual copy of the engine customers would be receiving would be better for sales. ...

 

Here's a novel idea... wouldn't it have been really cool if Lionel announced this model with delivery available immediately.  That's right, I said IMMEDIATELY.  With all the new steam features here, Lionel would have to know folks would want one because the fun factor is so high.  Enough with the BTO nonsense already.   Instead, we need to endure a few more months of waiting to see the price until next year's 2018 Signature Catalog is published.  Then several more months to a year from now for actual delivery.

Just would have been nice to see it and buy it!

David

P.S.  For those not at York to grab a copy of the preview brochure, looks like Lionel plans to offer the Niagara in several road numbers, including an art-deco styled, "greyhound" 20th Century Limited version, and another road number available exclusive thru the LCCA.

I would think that Lionel would deliver immediately if it could do so.  The reality of the model train business today, at least in O gauge where MTH and Lionel are essentially doing the same thing, is that the manufacturers want orders on the table before commissioning the production run to make sure that they have sufficient interest to make the run profitable for them and hopefully the dealers too.  I am sure people know this by now.  Why it still keeps coming up as a topic is like arguing about the weather.  It is what it is.

As far as showing the sample, I have been critical of Lionel's quality lapses here but it seems like they cannot win with certain folks here who have gone from buying Lionel no matter what to being unimpressed no matter what.   If Lionel felt the preproduction sample adequately demonstrated the attributes of the new locomotive, I see no reason why they should not have brought it to York.  It's the biggest meet, with a lot of die-hards.  Why not show it off to potential customers?  

One final thought for the moderators:  Is there a way to merge all the Niagra threads?   There is a tendency here when there is a Vision line release for the entire forum to be consumed.  Big boy mania all over again.  It's a bit much.  It's fine for folks to like the new loco (I like it too but lack an O72 layout at present) but there are other things to read about here.  Thanks!

Just a thought: It is VERY difficult to "deliver immediately" under the current Build to Order concept.

Not just difficult Jack, it’s irresponsible to bring a consumer product to market these days with no marketing beforehand.

Currently, the undisputed champ of consumer goods manufacture is Apple. Even they have announcements of products BEFORE they are actually available. If Apple can’t/won’t bring products to market when they are announced, what chance does a Lionel/MTH/3^rd rail have?

What we really have on this forum is a few members voicing their opinion as fact based when in reality, they have no experience in manufacturing at any level, let alone toy trains.

Best just to ignore them

Charlie

Charlie posted:

Not just difficult Jack, it’s irresponsible to bring a consumer product to market these days with no marketing beforehand.

Currently, the undisputed champ of consumer goods manufacture is Apple. Even they have announcements of products BEFORE they are actually available. If Apple can’t/won’t bring products to market when they are announced, what chance does a Lionel/MTH/3^rd rail have?

What we really have on this forum is a few members voicing their opinion as fact based when in reality, they have no experience in manufacturing at any level, let alone toy trains.

Best just to ignore them

...

Hate to break the news to you, Charlie.  But Apple is NOT a BTO company.  When they make an announcement, products are either available immediately or within a couple of months.  In either case, the initial production schedule is already set, and they move forward from there.

Lionel needed to do "market research" on this Niagara like they needed a hole in the head.  The only "research" they're doing is gauging how high a price tag they can set after watching folks enjoy the demos -- either in person at York or via online videos.  In either case, the bait has been cast, and they're drawing in the fish!!!  

It's a purely arbitrary decision to go BTO with it -- certainly a less risky strategy if an importer can get away with it. But hardly irresponsible to offer a winning product like this at announcement time.  MTH has been doing it occasionally, and it's indeed a refreshing surprise when they do it.  That's all I'm suggesting here for Lionel, and this would have been the perfect offering to do it.  

David

Ryan said today that the catalog would be out in January, and deliver for the Niagara would be shooting for right around this time next year in October. See how well things work, and what else is in the catalog. I hope to get to chat with him tomorrow a bit, as I want to inquire on if they are going to have plans in the future to do a scale J Hudson(not sure which J has been talked about to me over my time here), but whichever one was the anniversary set I believe. It would be a great thing(to see eventually in a few years most likely) to see it with the actually accurate builders plate, and all the other things that the 700E was missing(if it was missing other things besides the plate). I also want to ask if they take suggestions there(maybe a pad or something they have) or if it is just better to pester them via email.

Plenty of time to save some coin to add one or two to my three Niagara fleet (6014, 6022 and 6025 - MTH).

The LIonel Collectors Club of America is proud to have one of the road names for this spectacular new engine.   Thank you Lionel!

Al Kolis 

Immediate  past-president 

Lionel  Collectors Club of America 

Steam from the stream chest and down blow from the fire box would be much better, but the blow out valves are great. All in all a very good engine.

Greg C posted:

Steam from the stream chest

Actually the steam should exit from the cylinder cocks, alternating from side to side as the locomotive moves. To be done accurately would be VERY difficult for the Lionel designers.

and down blow from the fire box would be much better

Well, the "blow down" does NOT really come from the firebox itself, but should come from the Wilson Blowdown Separator. Another VERY difficult feature to do properly.

, but the blow out valves are great.

Apparently you mean the "safety valves". They should NOT all be blowing at once.

All in all a very good engine.

Attached images are the 4 page flyer Lionel had at their booth at York.

Any more photos of the "20TH Century" one?

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any more photos of the "20TH Century" one?

Please be a bit more specific, i.e. WHAT "20th Century one"?  Since this whole subject is all about the new Lionel NYC Niagara, anyway.

Hot Water posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any more photos of the "20TH Century" one?

Please be a bit more specific, i.e. WHAT "20th Century one"?  Since this whole subject is all about the new Lionel NYC Niagara, anyway.

Item Number 6-85267. The 20th century limited inspired niagara. 

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any more photos of the "20TH Century" one?

Just whats on the flyer.  The one at the meet was a pre-production model in black.

Trainlover9943 posted:

Hot Water posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any more photos of the "20TH Century" one?

Please be a bit more specific, i.e. WHAT "20th Century one"?  Since this whole subject is all about the new Lionel NYC Niagara, anyway.

Item Number 6-85267. The 20th century limited inspired niagara. 

Since none of the models have been built yet, I would assume that there are no photos of #6001, "inspired by the 20th Century Limited". Whatever THAT is supposed to mean.

Al K. posted:

The LIonel Collectors Club of America is proud to have one of the road names for this spectacular new engine.   Thank you Lionel!

 

Al Kolis 

Immediate  past-president 

Lionel  Collectors Club of America 

Al, is there anything unique in terms of features or the road-number (#6019) for the Niagara being offered through the LCCA?  Thx...

David

The Portland Rose posted:

 

Looks to to me like Lionel did excellent work in modeling the tender.  It may look like " weed spraying" but these tenders seem to have had some overfill release in the form of expansion chamber vents.  Consider, when you take water "on the fly" there is no one standing on top of the tender to divert intake when the tank is full.  In any event, this appears to be what Lionel modeled in the Niagara.  I really like the pop off valve feature with the corresponding hissing steam sound effect as well.  I will be in the market for this model!

 

Thank you for the prototype photographs!!  That is what I was wondering, how much of the water spray turns to mist after it has passed a ways from the vents.  I saw the model at the Lionel table, and agree they did a pretty good job simulating the spray.  I thought the locomotive was very impressive, though I would have no room to run one even if it fit my budget.  I'm perfectly fine with that.  I'll see someone's run on a club layout someday!  Thank you Alan, Marty, Portland Rose!

MartyE posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any more photos of the "20TH Century" one?

Just whats on the flyer.  The one at the meet was a pre-production model in black.

Figured, I saw the flyer and wondered if they had a sample of that one, guess not, just have to wait for the catalog. 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Al K. posted:

The LIonel Collectors Club of America is proud to have one of the road names for this spectacular new engine.   Thank you Lionel!

 

Al Kolis 

Immediate  past-president 

Lionel  Collectors Club of America 

Al, is there anything unique in terms of features or the road-number (#6019) for the Niagara being offered through the LCCA?  Thx...

David

David.  It will have the LCCA road name.   It will include a one year membership in the LCCA.  If you are not  a member , you will become a one year member.  If your already are a member , then you will receive your next year membership free 

al 

Al K. posted:

David.  It will have the LCCA road name.   It will include a one year membership in the LCCA.  If you are nir a member , your will become a one year member.  If your already are a member , then you will receive your next year membership free 

 

al 

Al, Are you saying instead of New York Central on the tender it will have LCCA? 

Pete

All that for two grand ??  Wow !!

jim pastorius posted:

All that for two grand ??  Wow !!

There were no prices yet so I'm not sure where you got 2 grand.

Inside info from the Russians.

The flyer above is the only pictures that there is. You can see the black one(which the majority of engines are going to be modeled as) and the 20th Century one is silvery, white and looks like blueish, got me. Hard to see it well on the phone. See what the big price tag will be come January, and sure it is going to be a lulu.

Here is a pic from a flyer I just received. Detail looks pretty sharp, maybe better than the CCII engine if this is what is actually produced.

Pete

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

See what the big price tag will be come January, and sure it is going to be a lulu.

Didn't you see where Jim posted the price he got from the Russians?

MartyE posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

See what the big price tag will be come January, and sure it is going to be a lulu.

Didn't you see where Jim posted the price he got from the Russians?

And that "leaked in advance" price might just be within $200, either way of the REAL MSRP, when announced.

Wikileaks, you say??  LOL

MartyE posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

See what the big price tag will be come January, and sure it is going to be a lulu.

Didn't you see where Jim posted the price he got from the Russians?

Yes I did see that.

jim pastorius posted:

All that for two grand ??  Wow !!

BTO price of $1950

RickO posted:

jim pastorius posted:

All that for two grand ??  Wow !!

BTO price of $1950

Yeah, it has got to be right around there if not over($1950 or more). If by some miracle it is less than that, say around $1700, I think we may all pass out from our own overpricing ideas, lol.

Great looking engine!  All the smoke and steam features are very exciting. Can't wait to get one. Lionel, please include a few bottles of smoke, to get me through the first week or so.  LOL

jim911 posted:

Great looking engine!  All the smoke and steam features are very exciting. Can't wait to get one. Lionel, please include a few bottles of smoke, to get me through the first week or so.  LOL

I spoke with Dave on Saturday morning and they had gone through 3 or 4 bottles of Premium smoke fluid during the show and needed another to finish off Saturday.  Now granted this locomotive and all it's smoke units were working pretty much continuously from Thursday on but a holy smokes that's a lot.

Not only would it be expensive but maintenance would eventually be a problem

anyone sell it by the case lot?

"... holy smokes ..." ... ok, now you've done it.   Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

RickO posted:

jim pastorius posted:

All that for two grand ??  Wow !!

BTO price of $1950

I'm in for $1950,out the door.

laz1957 posted:

....

I'm in for $1950,out the door.

That would really be amazing. If I recall correctly, pre-order pricing for the VL Big Boy ($2700 MSRP) was slightly less than that through a few forum sponsors, and that monstrosity was an articulated steamer!  

Can't imagine folks would be all that eager to part with $2K for a non-articulated steamer -- no matter how many smoke units it has.    But that's why Lionel previewed the Niagara without a price -- so folks could convince themselves it'll be a "must-have" regardless of the insane price that gets announced in a few months.  Ah yes... The psychology of selling is alive and well here.  

jim pastorius posted:

Not only would it be expensive but maintenance would eventually be a problem

Jim - meaning, the more smoke units, the more smoke units to eventually  need repair or replacement?  

Yeah, I made the joke Saturday morning when Dave brought in the stock of smoke fluid that it had been drinking a lot. Of course this is with them constantly showing the smoke features every couple minutes.