Lionel Availability Frustration

I understand her confusion. It took me a couple of months to get up to speed on TMCC controllers and the newer models and what is needed for what.

I decided to stick with my older Cab1 remote and base as I currently have TMCC locos and no plans to buy any legacy locos.

You might want to look at Trainz.com, who is a forum sponsor, for a used Cab1 Remote and Cab1 base. They are costly but cheaper than the Cab1L equipment.

Thanks, she already purchased a CAB-1L last winter (arrived Sept) so already invested in the handheld controller.  Is the CAB-1L handheld controller compatible with the old BASE-1, seems to be conflicting opinions.  Do you know the differences between the BASE-1 & BASE-1L.  Checked Trainz, no BASE-1L's but one BASE-1.

@aka1178 posted:

Thanks, she already purchased a CAB-1L last winter (arrived Sept) so already invested in the handheld controller.  Is the CAB-1L handheld controller compatible with the old BASE-1, seems to be conflicting opinions.  Do you know the differences between the BASE-1 & BASE-1L.  Checked Trainz, no BASE-1L's but one BASE-1.

Simple, Base1L is blue, communicates with the matching blue CAB1L remote on 2.4GHz. This is labeled "legacy lite" meaning not the full features of Legacy- but the next generation version higher than the previous CAB1 set. No visible antenna to poke you in the eye.

original grey/black CAB1 base communicates using 27MhZ AM to the grey CAB1 remote. This ONLY understands and sends TMCC data formated commands. Uses an oldschool pull out antenna on the remote- great for poking someone or just snapping it off.

Side Track Hobbies has CAB1L sets (base and remote or just remote). They are a forum sponsor adpeeps.php

http://sidetrackhobbies.com/sc...VATOR.FXP?item=37147

Thanks for the explanation.

My daughter should have purchased the base/remote but out of ignorance purchased only the remote.  20-20 hindsight so now she just needs to acquire the base.  Of course the base-1Lby itself is not available anywhere.

@aka1178 posted:

Thanks for the explanation.

My daughter should have purchased the base/remote but out of ignorance purchased only the remote.  20-20 hindsight so now she just needs to acquire the base.  Of course the base-1Lby itself is not available anywhere.

Call Sidetrack and see if they will help you out. They are open Wednesday. http://sidetrackhobbies.com/sc...VATOR.FXP?page=ABOUT

Hours of operation:
Wednesday through Friday 10 - 5
Saturday.9 - 3
Closed Sunday, Monday & Tuesday

He sold me items he didn't have listed (my MTH European engines, B&O 4-4-0 set, my 400E tinplate, and others). Maybe can break up a set.

The bad news is I believe the base-1L is discontinued.

Check and see if the Speeder is Bluetooth enabled (which it should be if recent production--last few years). If so, it can be controlled by the free app on any smart phone or tablet.  Zero cost if possible.  Or controlled by the Universal Remote (LionChief) which is available for $50.  Added:  Unfortunately I'm wrong. Not Bluetooth equipped as listed on the Lionel site, just TMCC/Legacy.  If the box says Bluetooth, great, otherwise, my advice above is irrelevant.  Too bad. LionChief is almost as good as TMCC/Legacy in terms of features, and more reliable if anything.  Cannot imagine why they left this out as it is much easier and cheaper to implement. 

Use the the cab-1L if and when you buy a Base 3 or get a cab-1L command base in functioning condition for a bargain price.

Not ideal perhaps, but a way around the current supply chain problems, which affect all small manufacturers in our hobby, and some pretty big ones outside the hobby.

I understand your frustration. You said " In the 1950's things were much simpler but lacked bells & whistles of today" . In this case that just may be what you might need. I.M.O.

I recently bought a MTH command system that worked through an app on the phone for the wife for Christmas layout. I thought it was terrible. By the time I got the trains running, I didn't want to run them anymore. I think it's a shame that both Lionel and MTH are going to an  App system but I get it.

As others have said, maybe try a good used TMCC command set, or just wait for the base3.  Good Luck

This is the very unfortunate (and sad) reality of our hobby,  and we wonder why we are top heavy with now geriatric baby boomers (just like me).

Holiday train layouts are supposed to be (and used to be) fun and should bust the bank.

Conventional is looking better and better ... inexpensive, repairable, and simply fun to "play train" with.

Happy Holidays to all!

All Lionel Trains should run in conventional mode. If no command control the engine should run via transformer control something must be wrong

Correction ...Fun and SHOULD NOT bust the bank!

Sorry!!!!

@trainbob posted:

All Lionel Trains should run in conventional mode. If no command control the engine should run via transformer control

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...7065250RRSpeeder.pdf

Again, 2 things:

#1 Lionchief starter sets have a DC wall power pack

#2 Certain lionel trains and accessories are INCOMPATIBLE with DC. Do not place them on a Lionchief DC powered track.

@aka1178 posted:

My grandsons received a Polar Express Lion Chief set for Christmas 2-3 years ago and over time mom has added various items to their layout.  Last Christmas she purchased them the Polar Express Speeder (and without knowing, purchased an AC track powered required ITEM).

Grand kids play with the train on a small platform and mom planned to expand it for them to 8 x 12 next year (with grandpop's help).  Already told her she'll probably need a larger power supply (Not just larger- but probably variable AC) since the current DC wall wart transformer will be insufficient.  In the 1950's things were much simpler but lacked bells & whistles of today, the price of course is increased complexity and potential quicksand for newbie's.YES, extremely important to download and read the manual BEFORE purchasing to ensure you do not blow modern stuff up or even slightly older but still electronic AC required items up placing them on a DC powered track by accident.

If it were me I would purchase a used starter set transformer and use that.

They won't be able to run on the same track with Lionchief, but a separate oval within an oval on a dedicated track for the  speeder.

@Landsteiner posted:

The bad news is I believe the base-1L is discontinued.

Check and see if the Speeder is Bluetooth enabled (which it should be if recent production--last few years). If so, it can be controlled by the free app on any smart phone or tablet.  Zero cost if possible.  Or controlled by the Universal Remote (LionChief) which is available for $50.  Added:  Unfortunately I'm wrong. Not Bluetooth equipped as listed on the Lionel site, just TMCC/Legacy.  If the box says Bluetooth, great, otherwise, my advice above is irrelevant.  Too bad. LionChief is almost as good as TMCC/Legacy in terms of features, and more reliable if anything.  Cannot imagine why they left this out as it is much easier and cheaper to implement.

Use the the cab-1L if and when you buy a Base 3 or get a cab-1L command base in functioning condition for a bargain price.

Not ideal perhaps, but a way around the current supply chain problems, which affect all small manufacturers in our hobby, and some pretty big ones outside the hobby.

Thanks

I reached out to Lionel about availability, they replied "Thank you for contacting Lionel. Currently there is not ship date on this item. I do apologize for the inconvenience."  If it was discontinued I would have expected a different response.  Also saw on the forum a similar comment and then a follow-up reply from another member that it was not discontinued.  Sent a direct follow-up question back to Lionel customer service.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Again, 2 things:

#1 Lionchief starter sets have a DC wall power pack

#2 Certain lionel trains and accessories are INCOMPATIBLE with DC. Do not place them on a Lionchief DC powered track.

Thanks

Your correct that the wall transformer that came with Polar Express Lionchief train & track came with the starter set is DC, found this post

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...r-via-ac-transformer

Another posting speaks to AC vs DC, reading this seems to say that both the Polar Express set and Polar Express TMCC speeder will both run on the same track.   When expanding the layout to a larger 8x12 the wall mount DC transformer will be too small to power the layout.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...re-dc-voltage-motors

No easy solutions at this point. If the plan is to keep the Cab1L you can either wait for the Base3 or put a post in the wanted to buy section for a Base1L. I know a person was trying to sell one recently, there may be more out there.

Pete

@Chuck Sartor posted:

If it were me I would purchase a used starter set transformer and use that.

They won't be able to run on the same track with Lionchief, but a separate oval within an oval on a dedicated track for the  speeder.

Thanks but confused, this post seems to indicate that that LionChief & TMCC engines can run on the same tracks with 18v AC using the proper controller for each engine.   Almost like you need to attend Lionel U and get a degree to understand all the options, incompatibilities and incompatibilities.

@Norton posted:

No easy solutions at this point. If the plan is to keep the Cab1L you can either wait for the Base3 or put a post in the wanted to buy section for a Base1L. I know a person was trying to sell one recently, there may be more out there.

Pete

Thanks, I just put a question out to Lionel Customer service to find out if in fact the base-1L is discontinued (seen conflicting posts).  I expect once the Base 3 starts shipping the Base-1L will begin showing up on the used market.  Thanks for the tip about the "wanted to buy", very much appreciated.

@aka1178 posted:

Thanks, I just put a question out to Lionel Customer service to find out if in fact the base-1L is discontinued (seen conflicting posts).  I expect once the Base 3 starts shipping the Base-1L will begin showing up on the used market.  Thanks for the tip about the "wanted to buy", very much appreciated.

That would be new news. Word was no more Base1L. Best call Lionel if you want an answer. Emails fall into a bottomless pit.

Pete

@Norton posted:

That would be new news. Word was no more Base1L. Best call Lionel if you want an answer. Emails fall into a bottomless pit.

Pete

They were actually quite responsive, sent a note on Thursday evening and they responded today.  Maybe they were quick because nothing was looked up and the standard answer to out-of-stock questions is the same.  We have no idea.  I'll give them a few days and then call.

@aka1178 posted:

  Almost like you need to attend Lionel U and get a degree to understand all the options, incompatibilities and incompatibilities.

IMO, Lionels constant reinvention of Lionchief is a disaster .

There was a time when TMCC could run anything from a $1000 scale loco to a $300 semi scale set.

Legacy came along with more features,  but can still operate all of the same cc engines that TMCC can all the way to the beginning in 94.

I guess this is what happens when the "model train makers" depart and get replaced with "electronic toy makers".

Reinvention, after reinvention because they didn't have the foresight the first time.

It makes me have all the more respect for the design of Legacy. A remote that can access features that didn't yet exist when it was created.

How long til there's a base 3.5???

@RickO posted:

IMO, Lionels constant reinvention of Lionchief is a disaster .

There was a time when TMCC could run anything from a $1000 scale loco to a $300 semi scale set.

Legacy came along with more features,  but can still operate all of the same cc engines that TMCC can all the way to the beginning in 94.

I guess this is what happens when the "model train makers" depart and get replaced with "electronic toy makers".

Reinvention, after reinvention because they didn't have the foresight the first time.

It makes me have all the more respect for the design of Legacy. A remote that can access features that didn't yet exist when it was created.

How long til there's a base 3.5???

I hear you and agree.  The base 3 brings Legacy, TMCC, LionChief remotes all down to one set of expensive equipment.  They sell entry level LionChief original and 2.0 sets with a remote for each engine to entice new hobbyist but $450 quickly prices entry level out.  At least the Cab-1L and base were a somewhat tolerable expense and cheap when compare to the base 3.  Seems like the biggest mistake my daughter made was buying the Polar Express Speeder, like paying $150 for the pleasure of then spending hundreds more.  (maybe that's by design).

As us baby boomers die out will there be enough enthusiasm to continue spending mega bucks on toy trains to keep them in business.

The modern TMCC and others modern electronic controlled trains are suited for tech savvy adults and not kids or the non technical adults.

Conventional control is much easier for most non technicals to understand, set up and operate.  I think that you have no chance of getting Lionel to help you.  You need to buy the trains from a local hobby shop or model train shop who can help with questions and help you figure out what to buy.  Modern model trains have evolved into technical expensive toys and are not for kids anymore.

Charlie

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

The modern TMCC and others modern electronic controlled trains are suited for tech savvy adults and not kids or the non technical adults.

Conventional control is much easier for most non technicals to understand, set up and operate.  I think that you have no chance of getting Lionel to help you.  You need to buy the trains from a local hobby shop or model train shop who can help with questions and help you figure out what to buy.  Modern model trains have evolved into technical expensive toys and are not for kids anymore.

Charlie

Thanks for your honest words of wisdom.

I hear you, Grand Pop is involved now since my daughter has finally figured out she's in over her head.  Unfortunately the closest hobby shop "Nicholas Smith Trains" is 20 miles away.   The grand kids have no problem with the LionChief controls, they are getting older and just want to expand into a little more real estate (8x12) and ability to run multiple trains.  Biggest mistake she made was buying the speeder (instead of another LionChief) because it came with a Polar Express motif, never even noticing that it was TMCC.  Then she got a CAB-1L not realizing a base was necessary.

The Base 3 and some of the newer engines are probably the best proof that your last sentence is spot on, not for children.

Whenever I read threads like this I'm grateful I stuck to analog control; 2 wires from transformer to track. Regardless of the vintage, everything works every time.

I hope the OP can work things out...

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Whenever I read threads like this I'm grateful I stuck to analog control; 2 wires from transformer to track. Regardless of the vintage, everything works every time.

I hope the OP can work things out...

Mark in Oregon

The kicker in all this, from day one, had the manual been read- they could have been running this speeder and the Lionchief engine simply by buying an upgraded AC variable transformer in conventional. They still could sell the remote or trade for a transformer.

"I guess this is what happens when the "model train makers" depart and get replaced with "electronic toy makers".

I think LionChief was a response to the escalating costs of manufacturing and shipping conventional transformers.  It allowed command control and use of a remote for less expense than a conventional locomotive/set.  You can still get a Lionel Thomas set for under $200, which is as inexpensive as a Bachmann HO or N set, which is remarkable to me, at least.   LionChief proved so popular that folks who weren't new to the hobby wanted them, and wanted more features.  Hence LionChief Plus so the loco could operate conventionally, which is still likely the most common method folks use.

The universal remote for LionChief and Bluetooth costs $50 and operates everything Lionel is now making, for the most part.  This is compared to spending many hundreds of dollars on Legacy (or DCS for that matter).  Less than 10% the cost of the forthcoming Base 3.   So I suspect most of this is driven by the cost/features equation, not any philosophical difference between model railroading and toys.  They are all toys to me .

@Landsteiner posted:

I think LionChief was a response to the escalating costs of manufacturing and shipping conventional transformers.

You still need a transformer. The only difference is that now it's a wall wart instead of block of iron and copper next to the track. There are other technologies that would have enabled them to build a smaller transformer if they wanted. The simplest thing they could have done was to just use a switched-mode power supply. Those are pretty much used everywhere now as the technology has become cheap enough.  The power supplies they put in the sets are only designed to run one engine anyway.

It allowed command control and use of a remote for less expense than a conventional locomotive/set.  You can still get a Lionel Thomas set for under $200, which is as inexpensive as a Bachmann HO or N set, which is remarkable to me, at least.   LionChief proved so popular that folks who weren't new to the hobby wanted them, and wanted more features.  Hence LionChief Plus so the loco could operate conventionally, which is still likely the most common method folks use.

The universal remote for LionChief and Bluetooth costs $50 and operates everything Lionel is now making, for the most part.  This is compared to spending many hundreds of dollars on Legacy (or DCS for that matter).  Less than 10% the cost of the forthcoming Base 3.   So I suspect most of this is driven by the cost/features equation, not any philosophical difference between model railroading and toys.  They are all toys to me .

The other thing that makes me laugh is that people frequently say "just run conventional" if you can't wait for or don't want the Base3. LionChief (not Plus or 2.0) locomotives are still being sold and are incompatible with conventional operation. So where does that leave you? Especially if you have an older Legacy Locomotive that doesn't have Bluetooth. I'm not sure when Bluetooth became standard in all Legacy offerings, but I'd venture a bet there are more non-Bluetooth than Bluetooth enabled locomotives out there.

@rplst8 posted:

I'm not sure when Bluetooth became standard in all Legacy offerings, but I'd venture a bet there are more non-Bluetooth than Bluetooth enabled locomotives out there.

Considering that Bluetooth was introduced for Legacy in the 2017 Volume 2 Catalog, I'd say you're right.  We had 11-12 years of Legacy before they had Bluetooth!

In any case, the issues with BT range limit it's usefulness to fairly small layouts in any case.

@aka1178 posted:

My grandsons received a Polar Express Lion Chief set for Christmas 2-3 years ago and over time mom has added various items to their layout.  Last Christmas she purchased them the Polar Express Speeder (on back order).  Of course she did not realized what TMCC meant and it would not run with the current set.  After contacting Lionel they told her she needed a separate controller but failed to mention the need for a base unit.  She ordered a CAB-1L (back order again) only to discover when it arrived in September that she could not get the engine to run with just the CAB-1L.  At this point grand-pop was called and after some research explained to her she purchased a TMCC engine and the CAB-1L requires a Base-1L.  Well of course the Base-1L not available anywhere except used on ebay at a price higher than new Lionel MSP.   Reached out to Lionel and they do not have ETA on Base-1L availability and no online retailer is accepting back orders.  Makes you wonder about Lionel inventory management when they can't even predict when product is expected to be back in stock.

I know the Base 3 is expected in 2023 but it's capabilities and pricing far exceeds their needs as does the Legacy 990 & CAB 2.  I'm sure when they are older and if still interested in the hobby, the latest & greatest of today will have become obsolete.

Grand kids play with the train on a small platform and mom planned to expand it for them to 8 x 12 next year (with grandpop's help).  Already told her she'll probably need a larger power supply since the current wall wart transformer will be insufficient.  In the 1950's things were much simpler but lacked bells & whistles of today, the price of course is increased complexity and potential quicksand for newbie's.

aka1178, if you still need a command system, please email me - I may be able to assist.

I think another (and bigger) reason Lioncheif was developed was to compete with MTH and their remote system introduced in 2000ish. While the IR remote from MTH isn't quite as handy as an RF system, anyone with a TV knew how IR remotes worked so it wasn't too big of deal. Yes the early IR system would only control the train remotely via conventional methods, but it also worked with non-TMCC Lionel trains that never offered a remote! It was so nice to finally run the Christmas tree train from the comfort of your easy chair with a compact & simple remote control. Before this your only options were bulky and expensive, a ZW-C with a TMCC setup, a power master with a powerhouse brick, or a Z4000 with a Z4K Remote system.

The later DCS Remote commander system (circa 2010) was also another big reason to get a cheap command control system out there. Gosh, it's 2012 and Lionel is still selling starter sets that tethers the operator to a little transformer like the 1950's? Lionchief was a much needed answer.

@Norton posted:

That would be new news. Word was no more Base1L. Best call Lionel if you want an answer. Emails fall into a bottomless pit.

Pete

Just heard back from Lionel Customer Service, so either they are either uninformed or nothing official has been published.

My question followed by their response.

"I just want to confirm that this product has not been discontinued.  Hearing from another hobbyist that the BASE-1L was discontinued??"

"The cab 2 has been discontinued but I have seen nothing on the cab 1l at this time. I would check back at the beginning of the year for updates."

@aka1178 posted:

Just heard back from Lionel Customer Service, so either they are either uninformed or nothing official has been published.

My question followed by their response.

"I just want to confirm that this product has not been discontinued.  Hearing from another hobbyist that the BASE-1L was discontinued??"

"The cab 2 has been discontinued but I have seen nothing on the cab 1l at this time. I would check back at the beginning of the year for updates."

Light are on but nobody at home. 🙄🙄

Pete

@aka1178 posted:

"I just want to confirm that this product has not been discontinued.  Hearing from another hobbyist that the BASE-1L was discontinued??"

"The cab 2 has been discontinued but I have seen nothing on the cab 1l at this time. I would check back at the beginning of the year for updates."

Note that they said CAB1L.  The BASE1L was previously announced as going away, but the CAB1L would still be offered to use with the new BASE3.  The Legacy #990 base and CAB2 are also going away.  Not sure when we'll see the BASE3, last I heard was in the spring.

@Dave Olson, can you confirm that statement is true?

Here's one of the previous announcements.  Note the only item that was continued was the CAB1L.

Lionel BASE3 Announcement.pdf

I'm still struggling with the idea that the BASE3 provided enhanced functionality over the IRV2 and the add-on sensors!  It doesn't provide any of that functionality!

@Norton posted:

Light are on but nobody at home. 🙄🙄

Pete

Your correct, the "Lights are out", found the following on Findmylionel.com

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm still struggling with the idea that the BASE3 provided enhanced functionality over the IRV2 and the add-on sensors! 

I'm still struggling with the idea that it's $500 and it doesn't even come with a handheld.

@aka1178 posted:

Your correct, the "Lights are out", found the following on Findmylionel.com

Note the base and the whole set are mentioned, but they specifically said the CAB1L would continue to be manufactured.

From the 2022 Volume 2 Catalog.  It's really still a current item!

Mr. Muffins has it in stock: https://mrmuffinstrains.com/pr...ionel-6-37155-cab-1l

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note the base and the whole set are mentioned, but they specifically said the CAB1L would continue to be manufactured.

From the 2022 Volume 2 Catalog.  It's really still a current item!

Mr. Muffins has it in stock: https://mrmuffinstrains.com/pr...ionel-6-37155-cab-1l

Thanks but looking for just the BASE-1L