Lionel Base 3

You mean the one on Page 226 of the current catalog?

Jon

The last time this came up. The eta was for 4th quarter of this year. There is no concrete shipping date.

I don't even think Lionel knows when it'll ship.

It will ship when it ships and not before.

Jon,

You are correct as I was just focused on the portion of the catalog that is normally mailed out, shame on me.

Being it was a new and coming introduced product I would have thought Lionel would have kept it in the mailed out catalog?

From the reply's it is pretty much what I expected regarding shipment "it will get here when it gets here".

I would also like to see a new Legacy hand controller to go along with the CAB 3 although that is probably not realistic?   Not sure how many other folks would be interested although I do have an abundance of both Lionel Legacy and MTH TIU and controllers to keep me going for quite awhile.

Larry Brown

@Larry Brown posted:

I would also like to see a new Legacy hand controller to go along with the CAB 3 although that is probably not realistic?   Not sure how many other folks would be interested although I do have an abundance of both Lionel Legacy and MTH TIU and controllers to keep me going for quite awhile.

Well, the retained the CAB1L, so we get at least a hand-held controller that works with it, even though it's not a fully capable one.

@Junior posted:

I gotta tell ya....Lionel's Product Succession Planning completely alludes me.

They came out with CAB1 and Remote...GREAT! Then CAB1L and Remote came out (for Legacy support]....makes sense. Then CAB2 and totally redesigned Remote came out (for full Legacy functionality)....fantastic.

Now CAB3 is due out and......there's no Remote!? And its not backward compatible with the snazzy, fully enhanced CAB2 Remote? I'm so confused.

I've seen train club members run trains on their phones (I've not seen anyone run trains from a tablet.....so far). It's not pretty. Maybe Lionel should consider selling "official reading glasses" for those running trains from the tiny screens on their cellphones.

If the objective is to attract the younger generation to model railroading..I get that. But how many of the younger generation can drop $2 grand on an engine?

Anyway...am I buying a CAB3? Mmmmmm....no.

And yes, its my understanding MTH is heading in the same direction. Sigh.....

I guess I need to chalk it up to "progress".

Just my 2 cents (now where's the cents sign on my tablet's keyboard).......sigh.

Now CAB3 is due out and......there's no Remote!? And its not backward compatible with the snazzy, fully enhanced CAB2 Remote? I'm so confused.

You are so wrong you are able to use the cab 2 remotes with the cab 3 I think you need to go back and watch Daves videos on youtube.

@Vernon Barry....I deleted my post. I realized that I was venting and that has no value here.

@Junior posted:

I gotta tell ya....Lionel's Product Succession Planning completely alludes me.

They came out with CAB1 and Remote...GREAT! Then CAB1L and Remote came out (for Legacy support]....makes sense. Then CAB2 and totally redesigned Remote came out (for full Legacy functionality)....fantastic.

Actually, TMCC was first. Then lionel came out with the Legacy Cab 2 .

At that point the TMCC cab 1 was discontinued and deemed obsolete. Then (after folks complained possibly) the Cab 1 reappeared as the Cab1L with legacy compatible electronics. Then years later, Lionchief Locos 2.0 became equipped with Tmcc 🤔

So really, it's even more confusing than you first thought. The Lionchief stuff is worse. Having said all that, maybe... if enough folks complain. Maybe Lionel can come up with a Cab 3. I'm not concerned,  I grabbed and extra Cab 2 for under 300 bucks right before the official discontinuation announcement.

Compatibility is always an issue and not just in running trains and sometimes you have to wonder what manufactures are thinking and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't and sometimes they finally come around.

I was not initially a LionChief advocate but after seeing kids who have not seen or played with a train before and you hand them a LionChief controller, give them a little overview and they are off and running having fun running a train for the first time.

Now we have trains that are compatible with all the controllers which allows the younger generation to move forward with the technology that is presented to them and they seem to pick it up pretty fast, especially in the world of computers.

We are all passionate about how we run our trains and we spend a lot of hard earned money doing so and it never ceases to amaze me how this forum works together to make that happen.  I learned a lot from Marty Fitzhenry when I first got into this hobby as he always worked with all the manufactures to better the hobby, not to mention all the help he provided to everyone in the world of trains.

I am optimistic that everything will come out in the wash, it might just take a little time.

Nothing we can do about it We will be getting the CAB3 at some point whatever we like it or not. I still do not understand Lionel's long term reasoning for this product. Oh yea i get 'everyone has a phone...blah blah...and they can do SW/FW updates over the air...blah blah' but where are they going with this?  No remote?? Who is really at the switch at Lionel making these long term technology decisions? Obviously, they are having MAJOR issues getting this thing to market...OY

@Don Beck posted:

No remote?? Who is really at the switch at Lionel making these long term technology decisions? Obviously, they are having MAJOR issues getting this thing to market...OY

The bean counters at Lionel have the wheel, and they've decided not to invest in a new remote.  It's all about the bucks, they save money by not having any physical remote.

Could the Legacy hand controller be updated for 4 digit I.D.'s and any future functions?

@Don Beck posted:

Nothing we can do about it We will be getting the CAB3 at some point whatever we like it or not. I still do not understand Lionel's long term reasoning for this product. Oh yea i get 'everyone has a phone...blah blah...and they can do SW/FW updates over the air...blah blah' but where are they going with this?  No remote?? Who is really at the switch at Lionel making these long term technology decisions? Obviously, they are having MAJOR issues getting this thing to market...OY

Don,

Although quite a few of us do generally agree with you, there are many who do not and have accepted what appears to be inevitable.  More importantly, and to be fair, you and I and the rest of us who agree are not automatically getting a perfect view in our crystal ball, justifying such confidence in our position.

It costs big money to develop custom hardware for a handheld.  This would require a commitment to the hobby by the major players that doesn't presently appear to exist.

As a result a third party may have to come in and handle our needs.  Although licensing issues might get in the way, with a good vision, hardware and software expertise, and a solid sales pitch such an organization may just be able to get the job done.

BTW -- Just to be clear it's the Cab 3 App for our phones that we'll be getting at some point whether we like it or not.  I think that's what you meant?

Mike

Yes  And sorry to be fair. Lionel continues to develop very expensive locos, so money is not the only issue here

@Larry Brown posted:

I was not initially a LionChief advocate but after seeing kids who have not seen or played with a train before and you hand them a LionChief controller, give them a little overview and they are off and running having fun running a train for the first time.

Now we have trains that are compatible with all the controllers which allows the younger generation to move forward with the technology that is presented to them and they seem to pick it up pretty fast, especially in the world of computers.

Larry,

You're right on track here, and I share your optimism, but I'm going to nitpick just a little.  If these kids are finding technology so easy to adopt then you or I should be able to dispense with LionChief and hand them a Cab 2 controller instead, right off the bat.

They should also be able to get off and running a train for the first time with a Cab 2, should they not?

Mike

Most of us are pretty happy with CAB2. Why not do a CAB2 plus?  All of this R and D and $ to add 4 digit address? Who cares. How many of us have 99 locos?  And over the air updates and the ability to run ALL Of Lionel’s. It seems a big missed opportunity. We shall see. Meanwhile no new Base3 or App.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

It costs big money to develop custom hardware for a handheld.  This would require a commitment to the hobby by the major players that doesn't presently appear to exist.

I can't imagine it costs that much, I think it's more simply pinching pennies by Lionel.  Truthfully, the people with the money simply don't have the interest in the actual business.  It appears they're more interested in squeezing as much profit out of the business as possible in the short term.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I can't imagine it costs that much, I think it's more simply pinching pennies by Lionel.  Truthfully, the people with the money simply don't have the interest in the actual business.  It appears they're more interested in squeezing as much profit out of the business as possible in the short term.

John,

Is the tooling for a handheld on the order of that for a detailed steamer?  Probably not, but very few detailed steamers are tooled up completely from scratch anymore.

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying here.

The difference between a handheld and a detailed steamer or diesel is that one needs to know electronics and modeling both equally well for a new handled to be considered "low risk".  I don't think our large players currently do.

Perceived risk in the investment is the problem here.  Presently steamers and diesels appear to be much more likely to be considered low risk than handhelds.  To the players, using a phone as a platform for control presently appears to incur the lowest risk.

Mike

Thought #1 - As much as it sucks working at a penny-pinching company, it sucks works worse working at a company that is losing money and goes out of business, especially at the bottom of a recession. Guess what? If a company goes out of business, there is no more COBRA.

Thought #2 - The company I work at now has found out a microprocessor will be obsoleted and many products will need to be redesigned and re-tested. All this money will be spent for NOTHING, just eating up profits and bonuses. The company's strategy is to NOT obsolete our products.

The trains are so so sophisticated now, what exactly would you all like to see them add to make this hobby more enjoyable?  I don't get Lionels long term goals here.

Lionel does not need long term goals there major competition is no longer competition MTH is gone and Lionel is going back to where they were in the 90's expensive no quality control and now they can drag their feet on the cab 3 because no threat exists.

When I run my trains, I use a Cab1-L, and while I have a Cab2, I don't use it much unless running a train that has a lot of extra features.  The touch-pad saves me from having to remember all the button presses.   A Cab1-L is perfect for me, and it is still available.  While I do think there is a need for a Cab3 (previously iCab), and it can add to the experience, it is not for everyone.

I don't believe Lionel is dragging their feet, there is a lot on their plate, and I can speak to that directly as I developed a lot of technology for Lionel for many years.  It takes time to design, test, and manufacture, as there is a limited budget.  I know that the team at Lionel wants the Base3 and Cab3 released to the hobby, because they have so much energy invested in the design and development.   I can confirm it will be worth the wait, don't ask me how I know.

The Base3 system will only improve over time, and the need to bring all of the disparate control systems to work smoothly together will make running the trains easier, no matter the technology inside.  After all, it is about running the trains, not figuring out the technology inside them.  Every now and then part obsolescence and the need to unify the various technologies needs to happen, it is not an easy path to follow.

As there was a lot of "discovery" when Legacy was introduced, the LUG meetings really helped to bring a new dimension to the running of our trains.  I am hopeful that the Base3 will generate as much fun and excitement as Legacy brought quite a few years ago.  I think it will.

Happy Easter,

Bottom line for me still is: No CAB3, no new Base 3 being ordered.  

And I hope that Lionel sees that there are a lot of us like that when marketing decides whether to make a CAB3 or not.

My question is, when did MTH disappear? MTH has changed their business model and they now sell more trains then ever. And they do have a new DCS/WIFI System in the pipeline but they are in the same boat as Lionel, when will it be manufactured and be available for us? Who knows, probably about the same time the CAB3 arrives. My bigger concern is Lionel continues to manufacture these expensive engines and they have given us no option for electronic parts to repair the engines we currently own. There is no way you will ever convince me that all those electronic parts just disappeared right before the half price sale last November.

Just my 2¢

WOW, I must say I never expected my inquiry into the CAB3 to generate so many replies all of which were really good. I wish I had the time to respond to each as they were all well done, and I am sure respected by all.

We even had the previous (and well respected) CTO of Lionel respond and I agree with his feedback as everything "especially really good things" takes time.  There is an old saying around "you need to crawl before you can walk" and sometimes it takes a little time to get there. 

I also appreciated the "demeaner" in which all responded which goes back to "train people" being very "special people" as when you get right down to it, we all just want to to run our trains and have fun, as we only get so much time on this earth.

If you could ask Marty he would tell you the same thing.

Something important that nobody is discussing is Lionel’s commitment to maintaining and updating the CAB-3 app. Look at history as your guide. iCab hasn’t been updated in 6 years! I sent a list of bugs to Lionel several years ago. But they weren’t addressed. It’s business. They moved on to other projects. The primary issue with apps is that, unlike a hardware remote, constant developer intervention is necessary to keep it updated and running . Each new iOS version can potentially break an app. Backing up apps isn’t a guarantee either. Backups for iOS are only links to download whatever the latest version is in the App Store. If Lionel were to disappear, the app would vanish too. Remotes don’t. I have a pre-order in for a BASE-3 but I don’t have a good feeling about the software support. And MTH is no better. They haven’t updated their app in 4 years. Neither company has displayed a good record when it comes to supporting and updating these apps that are the so called way of the future.

@GregR posted:

Neither company has displayed a good record when it comes to supporting and updating these apps that are the so called way of the future.

An excellent point!

@Don Beck posted:

Most of us are pretty happy with CAB2. Why not do a CAB2 plus?  All of this R and D and $ to add 4 digit address? Who cares. How many of us have 99 locos?  And over the air updates and the ability to run ALL Of Lionel’s. It seems a big missed opportunity. We shall see. Meanwhile no new Base3 or App.

Don,

I agree with you about most of us being happy with the cab2. With the cab3 being an app I'm sure Lionel is trying to influence the next generation of kids that want to get into trains.  4 digit address, I'm right there with you. Just seems like Lionel can get a new fan base and make more money,  so come up with a new command system that will bring everything together, then Lionel will release/ rerelease locomotives to 4 digit address. The wheels just keep spinning IMO.

Many people bring up kids and this hobby. This ain’t the 50’s. My personal view is that kids will become adults before entering the hobby. You simply don’t see small layouts on this forum or magazines that are owned and operated by children. The collections on the walls and monstrous layouts are all from adults after spending thousands of dollars. Forget the apps and put simplicity back into the trains.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I can't imagine it costs that much, I think it's more simply pinching pennies by Lionel.  Truthfully, the people with the money simply don't have the interest in the actual business.  It appears they're more interested in squeezing as much profit out of the business as possible in the short term.

Ahh, financialization.  While I admired and regularly read the late economist Milton Friedman's newspaper columns as a young man, I believe that the whole "shareholder value" thing has gone too far and is a major (though often subconscious) contributor to today's political angst/frustration.  I'm not going to lobby for two trainmen on every train, in addition to the engineer and conductor, but PSR, a shareholder value derivative, doesn't optimize overall performance, when one considers shareholders, shippers, and employees.  The same can be said, in a different context, on the model railway front.

I look forward to the Base 3 whenever it arrives and with whatever glitches it includes at release.  It's another arrow in the quiver, which is why I acquired a Cab-1L, in addition to my TMCC Cab-1, and Cab-2 well after my Base 3 order was placed.  A year from now (hopefully), I'll be able to run most of my locos with the original TMCC controller, Cab-1L, Cab-2, Bluetooth via Cab-3, and run a few others via Lionel Bluetooth or BluRail/Blunami.  A feast of options!  (Only lacking DCS because I have no modern MTH locos.)

Do I need a new handheld?  Not if what I have continues to work.  Am I comfy with smartphone/tablet only?  TBD, but open to trying it out.

Legacy came out in 2007, and I know it is now 16 year-old technology, but it worked!  I understand that technology generally improves over time and is updated or replaced, but what was so wrong with engines from that time?  What do the new engines do that is so much better or desired over engines from 5 to 16 years ago?

So now we have expensive engines that we are waiting for a way to control them with access to all of their features.  How long will the Base3 be in vogue before a Base4 is announced?

@illinoiscentral posted:

Thought #2 - The company I work at now has found out a microprocessor will be obsoleted and many products will need to be redesigned and re-tested. All this money will be spent for NOTHING, just eating up profits and bonuses. The company's strategy is to NOT obsolete our products.

Thought #3…

Why not base the Cab-2 successor on the same microprocessor that is being used on the new Legacy boards that are in the locomotives?

Why isn’t there a parts shortage problem with the electronics that go into the locomotives?

@SantaFeFan posted:

I don't believe Lionel is dragging their feet, there is a lot on their plate, and I can speak to that directly as I developed a lot of technology for Lionel for many years.  It takes time to design, test, and manufacture, as there is a limited budget.  I know that the team at Lionel wants the Base3 and Cab3 released to the hobby, because they have so much energy invested in the design and development.   I can confirm it will be worth the wait, don't ask me how I know.

The Base3 system will only improve over time, and the need to bring all of the disparate control systems to work smoothly together will make running the trains easier, no matter the technology inside.  After all, it is about running the trains, not figuring out the technology inside them.  Every now and then part obsolescence and the need to unify the various technologies needs to happen, it is not an easy path to follow.

They probably aren’t dragging their feet. What happened is they made an architectural mistake…

They essentially put two control systems and three command systems in one box. And, made them tightly coupled.

Control: wifi and cab2/cab1L RF
Command: Bluetooth, LionChief, and Legacy

The original LCS approached this in a modular way, allowing components to be “loosely coupled” (via serial or PDI) and added at the owners’ level of need. E.g wifi module etc.

If they can’t produce a new physical remote with one control interface (Legacy 2.4GHz signal) while dealing with parts obsolescence, what makes them think they’ll be able to manage and support the Base3 over the long haul?

@Frank Mulligan posted:

Legacy came out in 2007, and I know it is now 16 year-old technology, but it worked!  I understand that technology generally improves over time and is updated or replaced, but what was so wrong with engines from that time?  What do the new engines do that is so much better or desired over engines from 5 to 16 years ago?

The only thing that has improved are the number of effects (whistle, blowdown, pop-off, and cylinder steam) and the quality of the sounds. That said, you’re correct, the Base3 and four digit addressing isn’t required for that.

So now we have expensive engines that we are waiting for a way to control them with access to all of their features.  How long will the Base3 be in vogue before a Base4 is announced?

This is the crux of the problem. Lionel doesn’t have a way to enable all of the Legacy features with the current conventional, universal remote, and Bluetooth control options.

A Cab-1L doesn’t do it either.

@rplst8 posted:

Thought #3…

Why not base the Cab-2 successor on the same microprocessor that is being used on the new Legacy boards that are in the locomotives?

Why isn’t there a parts shortage problem with the electronics that go into the locomotives?

Good questions.

However the micro in the Cab 2 does very different things than the one(s) in the locomotives.  User interface vs. motor and feature control.  Could the same one be used?  Most likely but not efficiently, in both size and cost.

Secondly, maybe there is also a shortage in the micros that go in the locomotives.  How do we know?

Lastly, I don't think that anyone's actually said that there's a shortage of either.  Are we just assuming so?  It could be that some parts are just not going to be made anymore and there are no easy replacements to be found.

My choice for show-stopper isn't the micros but the unique flexible plastic display/touch pad used for the virtual, programmable keys.  The Cab 2 is the only device I've ever seen that uses this technology.  Smartphones don't, most appliances don't -- they have glass touchscreens.  Where does Lionel find a replacement for this?

Mike

Jon Z. is optimistic, so that's a good sign.  He's the only one commenting who has detailed and hands on knowledge about the development of Lionel command control systems.  New systems  can be problematic and people don't like change.

Editorial rant here: LionChief, despite all the bad mouthing by people who don't use it , was rock solid pretty much from the getgo and has remained that way.  The Universal Remote and the remotes that came with the sets/locos were inexpensive and very reliable.  LionChief enabled Lionel to keep set prices very low compared with the competition for many years.  Time passes and stuff changes.  MTH doesn't make sets at all. Lionel sets are more expensive.  Not that anyone here seems to care, one way or the other.  But dealers and average consumers care.

The Base 3 and whatever comes along with it down the road is targeted at this group--the folks with big investments in their hobby and lots of technical sophistication.  Jon Z. uses his cab-1L and he's forgotten more about technology than 99.999% of the people in the hobby.  So we'll just have to see how things play out.  Some folks will be unhappy and some will adjust.  When DCS/PS2 came out (and Legacy) there were all sorts of folks wringing their hands and complaining about various stuff, and the Base 3 will be no different.  Change ain't easy.  Stay chill.....

Thank goodness I’m a conventional/analog operator when it comes to my 0 gauge trains.  

@Landsteiner posted:

Jon Z. is optimistic, so that's a good sign.  He's the only one commenting who has detailed and hands on knowledge about the development of Lionel command control systems.  New systems  can be problematic and people don't like change.

Interesting thread!

@Landsteiner. Could you please elaborate on this?  I could not find a previous reference (is he one of the posters above?). Thanks