Lionel cab3

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

With a smart device with no tactile feel, you have to look at the screen for almost any operation.  With any of the Lionel physical remotes, you can run trains with very little visual input required.  I run trains one-handed with the Lionel remote, try that with your phone!

Which is why they need to add interfaces to allow gaming controllers on your device. You can have the grip and ergonomics you want on one of 100's available controllers with customizable buttons to run what ever functions you want.

@Vernon Barry posted:

To be honest, yes, the numeric buttons are an advanced touch screen but it also has a tactile grid on it for just as described muscle memory where the user doesn't look at the remote and can activate features just based on pure feel. Again, the grey grid is raised on the surface of the numeric screen section and divides it into blocks. It's not just there for looks.

And that's a difference that a tablet touch screen and app does not have.

But you still have to look and to see where you finger will land plus memorize the feature location and count how many spaces you need to move your finger in the X or Y position to activate that function.  My thumb is too big for those little squares, so I need to use my other hand and look at what I going to press. Out of the many users at our club, none have been able to master the CAB2 touch screen without looking at what they are going to press. It's not like a computer keyboard with raised bumps on the F & J keys so that you can align your hands correctly and type blindly.

You won't see a remote unless Cab 3 sales tank &,they think it is lack of a remote. A phone app is a ton cheaper to support, hardware quite frankly costs a lot to build and support. A phone/ tablet app is easy,especially these days, supporting ios and Android versions, supporting different screen sizes, is very easy these days w dev tools they have, and if bugs are found they simply deploy a new version.

If a handheld breaks they have to fix it if under warranty. If they found a major flaw in the handheld outside firmwares ability to fix,same thing.

Also an app doesn't have supply chain issues, if a chip or button or even cases are in short supply, they are screwed.

Not defending which is better, just saying in a world where beancounters only see cost,not value, a remote is unlikely. The 1l is not a new product, it is basically the TMCC cab 1 controller frozen in the 1990s,its cost was depreciated long time ago.

Just a note, how many of the Bean Counters have an operating Legacy controlled layout? (Not talking about Neil Young) (Richard Kughn Listened)  In sales, I was Honda GoldMaster, 23 plus years, and the Customer was Job 1: and if Lionel wants me to buy there goods, and I can, they need to listen. I entertained 200 plus LCCA club members yesterday, and without the Cab 2 remote, you might as well run conventional. Folks like the crowd pleasers, StationSounds Diners, VL cattle cars, VL boxcars, the Quilling whistles, the VL Steamers with lots of special features, route control, and track power, and simply a lot of things, the Subway set with doors opening, closing, bunches of stuff. Yesterday, I was lucky to have three friends help in running the trains, each knowledgeable with the Cab 2/Cab 1L and also familiar with my layout. It’s simply, in my thinking the very best way to operate our trains. Here’s my thought, if, Lionel decides to charge us for Cab 2 repair, and that enables them to buy the parts necessary, that’s fine. I’m not trying to cause hard feelings, just airing out my thoughts. Happy Railroading Everyone

Just got back and read everyone’s 2 cents so far great discussion.  Larry and John nailed what most of my friends thoughts are on the need for a good hand held remote.  Yes, I won’t hold my breath but discussions like this gets the ball rolling.  If enough customers and standard bearers of our hobby ask for it, Lionel will be inclined to explore moving forward with a Cab 3 remote.  And for me yes $500 or so for a quality remote is definitely a worthwhile investment.  

A protective case like you can get for your phone would be a great way to protect from most accidents.  Interchangeable colored border bands would be handy in a club/open house scenario to differentiate who’s remote is who’s.

With Wi-Fi and Bluetooth technology you could use a handheld in conjunction with a tablet or phone.  Maybe not too far in the future micro bi directional cameras can be put into the locomotives and caboose’s that feeds to your tablet/phone app to run like you’re in the cab if desired.

In the interim keep making the 993 cab2.

Keep the healthy dialog going, it’s what makes this hobby the greatest.

just bought a brand new hardly used cab2 off the bay for less than 500.  now I have 3 cab2's. should set for a while. now to get a backup tiu.

@RickO posted:

LOL! Did you do the research on that???   Legacy 990's going for over $1000 are a bit of an indicator of interest.

No matter how you slice it, running trains via screen requires half the time spent looking at the screen in order to find the correct spot to touch to access a desired feature. Once you find the feature you have to continue staring at the screen in order to adjust said feature.

The legacy remote is the only remote in ANY scale where the "meat and potatoes" train operations can be done without ever looking at it.

When base 3 finally gets delivered. I'd love to see a switching competition between a device/app and the Legacy handheld.

100% Rick. When Dave had his Demo's with Dave or perhaps the hinting of the Base 3, it came up in discussion that the market for Cab 2 Remotes were going for slightly higher prices on Ebay at the time. Given we are quite a bit from when the Base 3 was announced, God only knows what people are hiking them up to.

@leapinlarry posted:

@RickO, I agree, however, when Lionel runs out of parts for the Cab 2, many features disappear, understandably, possibly Lionel should offer a Free Cab 3 remote with these $2500 toys? Locomotives like  giving us the cab 2 set when ordering the first legacy Big Boy in 2006. I like incentives… Your correct, coming out with 4 digit capability for the Cab 2, you do the math, either make sure there’s no part shortage, or make a New remote. Thank you. Happy Railroading Everyone

Larry, Dave had said some time back maybe last year or the beginning of this year that "parts" in general were becoming more and more scarce, and also indicated that somethings would be phased out in favor of other improvements/technologies. When the Base 3 was introduced(as I said above), Dave had indicated also about how chips were being phased out that were used in somethings like the Cab 2, hence them moving towards the development of the Base 3.

Most things are moving over to apps because there is an easier market in that than making remotes(Bluetooth technology being the draw for that). How many times has Ryan plugged, "It's easy, just go on your phone to (whatever the store for your particular device is), download the app, and it is easy as 1, 2, 3, you're running trains. People would like to say old folks can't operate the apps to run trains, when that is just untrue like all sorts of stereotypes we hear about. Truth is, if you like running it by app, go ahead. Me, I love my remote, and until mine blows up, I don't care as long as I can run my trains.

Unfortunately I don't know how Lionel could produce another hardware remote and make it relevant over the life of the Base3.  I'd be happy with a hardware dock for the smart device that contains the throttle knob, whistle, and major "buttons".  Use the phone for just the keypad and display if you use a dock.  Now not being into this type of design and build I don't even know if this is feasible or financially worth doing for Lionel but I do know that other gaming controls can interface with smart devices so technically I thing it could be done. Only Lionel or some other entrepreneur can say whether it's able and worth it.

I personally do not like the apps but I understand the desire for the manufacturers to go to them.  Updates are easy, no hardware to be responsible for, and features can be added on a whim.

I certainly won't complain if they bring out a new remote but then again I'm not holding my breath.  I have a 12 or 13 year old Cab2 that still works perfectly so I'll use that with the Base3 for now.

@MartyE, weren't they going to continue to produce Cab1L's to use in lew of a Cab2 since it is almost the same thing with a lot less functionality? I thought Dave had mentioned that in one of the bits about the Base 3 earlier in the year or whenever the Base 3 was unvieled?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

@MartyE, weren't they going to continue to produce Cab1L's to use in lew of a Cab2 since it is almost the same thing with a lot less functionality? I thought Dave had mentioned that in one of the bits about the Base 3 earlier in the year or whenever the Base 3 was unvieled?

Yes they are but as you said Cab1L has less functionality than a Cab2. The good news is though is that the existing Cab2s will work with Base3 so until they all die or I do, I'm set with the hardware remote.  I will certainly give the Cab3 App a go.  I like to try new stuff but nothing beats the feel of a hardware remote but I am also realistic in knowing where we are headed.

Honestly, if they stuck a few sliders for horn/whistle and train brake, some extra programmable buttons, and a few indicator LEDs on the Cab-1L, everyone would probably be a lot happier. They could reserve the smartphone app for advanced things, and it shouldn’t be a “huge engineering hurdle” for anyone.

@rplst8 posted:

Honestly, if they stuck a few sliders for horn/whistle and train brake, some extra programmable buttons, and a few indicator LEDs on the Cab-1L, everyone would probably be a lot happier. They could reserve the smartphone app for advanced things, and it shouldn’t be a “huge engineering hurdle” for anyone.

When can we expect to see your new Cab1L design?  And what will you sell it for?

Thank you @MartyE, Dave, everyone for chiming in concerning the new Cab 3 app control center for operating our trains. Lionel will repair Cab 2 Remotes as long as there are parts, (that’s great), Cab 1L is going to be in the lineup for hopefully the next few years, this to is good, it’s just limited on its functionality. I admit it works good, however I like the LCD Screne on cab 2, it spoils me. The Fun part of this hobby, since we operate Hi Tech trains, Is sharing our trains with our friends.  Lou Kovach, years ago, brought out products escalating the level of operating our trains to a new level, ASC’s, BPC’s, TPC’s, allowing the Lionel Cab remotes to control our layouts walking around with our trains. (Two or more people can play)   Opening switches, operating accessories, making up trains, lash ups, double headers, routes, turning on sound cars, StationSounds diner cars , simply everything but making the Coffee. Lionel kept making their Hand Held remotes more sophisticated Cab 2 and more fun, by having modules available for annual updates. This was easy and like Apple products, a simple upgrade makes it easy and painless staying up to the minute with the latest and greatest. So, I feel that with all of the intelligence in Lionel’s staff, it’s possible to create a better, user friendly remote, state of the art, it may cost more, but if you Think It, It can happen. We are living in the best of times, 2022, Wow, think positive. This is my thoughts, let’s keep the fun of running our trains easy as possible. In a nut shell, when I visit Dr. Jack Fisher and run his trains, it’s fun with the cab 2 remote, the same at Farmerjohns, we take our remotes, sync in and run trains, long trains. We walk with our trains….. Nuff Sayd…… Happy Railroading Everyone

@MartyE posted:

Yes they are but as you said Cab1L has less functionality than a Cab2. The good news is though is that the existing Cab2s will work with Base3 so until they all die or I do, I'm set with the hardware remote.  I will certainly give the Cab3 App a go.  I like to try new stuff but nothing beats the feel of a hardware remote but I am also realistic in knowing where we are headed.

The good news for me is I do still have a Cab1L in storage at the ready. I love my Cab2, and haven't really toyed with all the other features that most people have got down pat already. Usually I ring the bell, blow the whistle, maybe up or lower the labor, but that is about it. I haven't programed a whole bunch of engines just yet, probably have maybe 4-5 in my remote out of at least 25-40 locomotives that I own. Just haven't gotten the layout to run a good portion of what I have.

I'm up for new things, but the Base3 is not on my list of priorities at the moment(need that layout that I should be getting to breaking ground this year's end). Whenever I do get to that point, I'll be trying to learn all the new features and stuff to make sure I run my railroad to the fullest.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

The good news for me is I do still have a Cab1L in storage at the ready. I love my Cab2, and haven't really toyed with all the other features that most people have got down pat already. Usually I ring the bell, blow the whistle, maybe up or lower the labor, but that is about it. I haven't programed a whole bunch of engines just yet, probably have maybe 4-5 in my remote out of at least 25-40 locomotives that I own. Just haven't gotten the layout to run a good portion of what I have.

One of my favorite features of the CAB2 is the wide variety of labor sounds I can achieve using the train brake and throttle control.  The wheel slip for the Big Boy and Challenger are also very cool effects.

I agree keep making the cab2 until a new handheld is developed.  It enables all the functions on these new engines.

@MartyE posted:

When can we expect to see your new Cab1L design?  And what will you sell it for?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/162757710157438318

If they keep making the Cab2 there is no R&D and allows the parts to be made for repair.  Warranty it for 3 years then customer pays for repairs.  Seems practical to me.

@Keystone Bill posted:

If they keep making the Cab2 there is no R&D and allows the parts to be made for repair.  Warranty it for 3 years then customer pays for repairs.  Seems practical to me.

You’re making an assumption that the parts are still available for Lionel to buy.

@Keystone Bill posted:

If they keep making the Cab2 there is no R&D and allows the parts to be made for repair.  Warranty it for 3 years then customer pays for repairs.  Seems practical to me.

Now you have to start putting serial numbers on them to prevent warranty fraud and maintain that list of serials, not too of a big deal. But does that warranty start from the date of manufacture, or date of sale? Will the dealer need to report each remote they sell and to who so that Lionel can keep tabs on when & which remotes warranties expire? Can it be transferred? will that Serial number be encoded in the software & hardware components to prevent defective part swapping between brand new & out of warranty remotes? Someone at Lionel has to do that tracking and maintain that list and all of the warranty registrations, labor isn't free.

That's why nobody should be afraid to buy a "Parts or Repair" CAB2, even if it doesn't work. Send it Lionel and get a working one returned for free, doesn't matter when it was made.

@rplst8 posted:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/162757710157438318

When will it be ready to buy?  I think if it was that easy and financially sound, some of the folks here that like to produce boards and things would be making a remote with the expected demand.

Don't get me wrong, I like your design and with some tweaks could be a good replacement if feasible both financially and engineering wise (with all the other stuff Dave and his team have to deal with).  I suspect if we are going to see another hardware remote it will be outsourced or if made in house would be way out there timeline wise.

Again this is all speculation.  Only Lionel knows their plans.  Perhaps they already are developing a hardware Cab3 and are determining the feasibility of producing it.

@MartyE posted:

I suspect if we are going to see another hardware remote it will be outsourced or if made in house would be way out there timeline wise.

The outside source supposes that Lionel wouldn't deem it a "threat" and sue it out of existence.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

One of my favorite features of the CAB2 is the wide variety of labor sounds I can achieve using the train brake and throttle control.  The wheel slip for the Big Boy and Challenger are also very cool effects.

One of the funniest things that happened to me John when I switched from Cab1L to Cab2 was that my brake was on all the way. So when I started up the engine and went to move, it didn't. I looked the remote over a bit and realized the brake was on. Good thing I didn't pop that question up here on the forum, that would have been not only hilarious, but also embarrassing. Good thing I read the manual a second time about the brake functions. Haha.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The outside source supposes that Lionel wouldn't deem it a "threat" and sue it out of existence.

By outsourced I mean by Lionel.  So no issue there.  But yes if one of our enterprising folks here on the forum did it, it would have to be with Lionel's blessing.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

One of the funniest things that happened to me John when I switched from Cab1L to Cab2 was that my brake was on all the way. So when I started up the engine and went to move, it didn't. I looked the remote over a bit and realized the brake was on.

When I first got my Legacy system, back in around 2010, the train brake bit me as well.  However, I didn't realize it until I had called Lionel support complaining about my new Legacy system screwing up!  That was a bit embarrassing.

@MartyE posted:

When will it be ready to buy?  I think if it was that easy and financially sound, some of the folks here that like to produce boards and things would be making a remote with the expected demand.

The lift for mere mortals like us to build from scratch would be a pretty tall order. Lionel has access to code, circuit designs, and all the secret sauce that that made the Cab-2 and Cab-1L work. Designing the hardware AND reverse engineering it all, as well as the liability it opens one too is quite a hill to climb.