I have to sent my brand new Diesel UP twice to Ohio and later on my Legacy remote also twice and Mr. M. Reagan took care with my remote I send me a new one right away, Thank you.
I'm sure once the bugs are gone you will be thrilled to death with it. It's a gorgeous engine. That is as sophisticated as toy trains get, sure to be a few bugs. Lionel will get it perfect for you then I bet it runs years trouble free. Enjoy ever minute. I'd love to have one.
I've just run my UP Centipede for the first time and have the noisy roof fan issue on the front unit; the rear unit is fine. I have tried the fix Mike R. suggested above (taking the fans off and oiling the shafts on which they are mounted), but it's plain that the noise is coming from the gears inside the fan unit. Anyone have a different fix? Has anyone who has sent their Centipede back for this issue had it returned with a satisfactory repair?
(Ansonn, what happened with your repair??)
It may be a good idea to simply leave these types of high end products at the Lionel service center for at least 6 months after purchase. Have them shipped directly from the hobby shop from where they were bought. Should eliminate a lot of customer frustration and save on the shipping dollars.
Originally Posted by Dave45681:
Originally Posted by John Pignatelli JR.:
....... Maybe it is time for Lionel to protect themselves and inspect these high end models when they receive them of the boat. I am sure they would not ship it out if they saw the windows missing, so they would not incur the shipping cost to and from and possibly they may ship it back overseas or repair it themselves if they had the parts.
...............It must cost them money and if there were many in that condition it would cost Lionel a small fortune in shipping. They are heavy!
I know when we buy something in the high value range like the centipedes we inspect like a new born.
Just my two cents.
John
(sorry for the odd modifying of the quote with the "...." above, but needed a good way to split the responses - the html looked much more involved then the way you could just use the quote/unquote switch in the old days)
1) The way it is now this risk is successfully being transferred to the end customer, so what would be the motivation for a change on either the part of Lionel or the factory? Right now Lionel only pays for the shipping to return a defective item to them for repair if you are a veteran (nothing wrong with giving veterans some benefit here), which reduces the risk, as only a certain percentage of customers fit that criteria. The business model you suggest would just move it up one notch. The factory can continue to ship whatever quality level of merchandise they wish, as they know there would need to be some really serious issues before anyone is going to send a container full of trains back across the ocean. Now, if we were to suggest inspection before the items were accepted for shipment, that would be another story. A bunch of messed up trains sitting in the factory because they were not built properly (or carefully enough, whichever the case may be) would actually have an impact on the factory operations.
2) The small fortune in shipping costs is now successfully spread across the end users, so this is a non-issue.
-Dave
FWIW I believe in the case of vision line locos, shipping is covered both ways during the 2 year warranty.
later on my Legacy remote also twice and Mr. M. Reagan took care with my remote I send me a new one right away, Thank you.
I wish I had the same luck. I sent a brand new Legacy remote and base unit that had not been upgraded and got back a well worn replacement. Unfortunately, that has deeply soured my interest in purchasing new Lionel equipment that may have to be sent in for service. That was the second time that I had that kind of experience. The first time, I sent a new engine with perfect box and outer carton only to receive back a repaired unit that was not mine with boxes in poor condition.
I understand Lionel probably states they have the right to replace with like unit, but like unit to me, is when it comes in like new, it should be returned like new.
The clattering of the front unit roof fan gear mechanism is loud enough - especially when the engine gains speed (so do the fans) - to interfere with hearing the Legacy sound effects. This can't be "normal." I'm guessing that the mechanism came from the factory improperly aligned or inadequately lubed.
However I also notice that the front unit's fans spin faster than the rear unit's and its the front where the noise is.
The old K-Line motorized roof fans used a belt and pulley system. It made a slight noise.
Ansonnn, I don't suppose that you took notice of how the mechanism is fixed to the body shell and whether there is any way to lube the inside gears?
Ansonnn,
Thank you for the update. My Centipede has one quiet and one noisy (loud) fan just like yours and several others. I tried lightly oiling the noisy one based on Mike's recommendation, but no change in sound. You are a lot braver than me by taking off the shell and voiding the warranty.
If no one comes up with a fix soon, I will be sending my units back to Lionel to have them disconnect the noisy fan.
Ron
IOriginally Posted by Hancock52:
I've just run my UP Centipede for the first time and have the noisy roof fan issue on the front unit; the rear unit is fine. I have tried the fix Mike R. suggested above (taking the fans off and oiling the shafts on which they are mounted), but it's plain that the noise is coming from the gears inside the fan unit. Anyone have a different fix? Has anyone who has sent their Centipede back for this issue had it returned with a satisfactory repair?
(Ansonn, what happened with your repair??)
I have been annoyed with the noise of the roof fans on both FM Trainmasters. It is loud and it seems to be the plastic gears making the noise. My solution was to disconnect the lead to the fan motor. I would like to have them work silently, however I do not have a clue what is required to achieve that. Fred
Are these fan gears metal or plastic? I know that with HO scalers, in order to quiet down some noisy gearboxes - They use a gritty tooth paste like "Pearl Drops". They run for about an hour, clean gears - shave off any flashing on the gears and then re-lube.
Wow I cannot believe you guys think this is acceptable on a $2100.00 dollar train. I mean it's not a cheap 300 dollar engine. My mortgage payment is less than that. I learned my lessen long ago. I test any engine I buy at my LHS for 20 minutes before I hand over my credit card. Plus if anything goes wrong fairly soon after the sale I return it for another Or a refund. I mean it seems anymore that you have to factor in the cost of shipping back to service as a given when you buy an engine. I don't care how nice an engine is, if it's not perfect it goes back. No engine is worth spending that kind of money and living with defects. Of the last 6 engines I bought, I had to exchange 4 due to electronic issues or cosmetic/broken item issues. And these were all 900.00 To 1300.00 engines I watched them open these from sealed shipping boxes. Maybe if you guys would stop accepting poor quality they would do something about it. Sending an item to Service should be the exception not the norm.
Easier said than done. It is out of Lionel's control even if they have strict quality control. At least they are offering to pay for the shipping for Vision warranty. Nothing can be perfect and comes with the hobby. If you want to believe everything you get you get "should" be then by all means. I paid a mortgage for this engine and as long as it runs perfectly with Lionel's help in the end I am happy.
I really hate the mentality of some people if for example they go to a high end restaurant and the waiter accidentally spills some water or something (bumped, tripped, etc.). And just because they paid $100 per plate or whatever makes them believe they have a God given right to ridicule and belittle the waiter for something that could not be avoided. I take everything for what it is and have a laid back mentality.
I really hate the mentality of some people if for example they go to a high end restaurant and the waiter accidentally spills some water or something (bumped, tripped, etc.). And just because they paid $100 per plate or whatever makes them believe they have a God given right to ridicule and belittle the waiter for something that could not be avoided. I take everything for what it is and have a laid back mentality.
See thats the problem I think. You really believe it is out of their control. There are plenty of company's that make products here and overseas that don't have this kind of failure rate. Don't know where you got the restaurant scenario. That makes zero sense. Spilled water is an accident, who cares. If the waiter spilled water on customers every night that would affect their business even if it was a 20.00 meal. I am talking about consistent failures.
Originally Posted by SandJam:
See thats the problem I think. You really believe it is out of their control. There are plenty of company's that make products here and overseas that don't have this kind of failure rate. Don't know where you got the restaurant scenario. That makes zero sense. Spilled water is an accident, who cares. If the waiter spilled water on customers every night that would affect their business even if it was a 20.00 meal. I am talking about consistent failures.
Your point is valid Sean, however I think the market for O guage trains is so narrow that "it is what it is" as they say, no, doesn't make it right. I'd like to know which manufacturer in this hobby produces a line of completely trouble free anything? Some of the brass manufacturers only turn out a couple hundred locos if that, and still folks here on the forum have complained of defects in multiple models of the same locos. This QC thing has been beaten to death and the reasons for the problems have been well covered by those in the hobby "who know" i.e. Allan Miller for one. No one likes it, "it is what it is" and FWIW Mike Reagan and crew are at least giving the best effort they can to rectify the issue. As long as Lionel continues "pushing the envelope" with electronic features problems will continue to arise until they run out of new ideas. Some other brands have seen little change in same models in between releases. Lionels recent legacy/vision locos are drastically different than their previous TMCC predecessors. This doesn't make any brand better or worse, there are just different ways that manufacturers choose to do things, and there have still been electronic issues in all brands, even Williams.
Obviously you missed my point entirely with the restaurant scenario which is why it makes zero sense to you. Again, my point is that you claim that people who pay an arm and a leg for these engines should get the best and settle for nothing less than perfection, and we consequently should have the manufacturers crucified for even having one defective product. That is a mentality that I have stepped away from as trains have become increasingly complex and inevitably problems will arise with new technology and/or constantly changing tooling. I have accepted that but doesn't mean I will accept a poorly released product. There is huge difference. I understand if Lionel made the Centipedes year after year and they keep having the same issues then of course that is another issue entirely. Of course they are not and again, that is part of the hobby. .
Originally Posted by SandJam:
See thats the problem I think. You really believe it is out of their control. There are plenty of company's that make products here and overseas that don't have this kind of failure rate. Don't know where you got the restaurant scenario. That makes zero sense. Spilled water is an accident, who cares. If the waiter spilled water on customers every night that would affect their business even if it was a 20.00 meal. I am talking about consistent failures.
Originally Posted by SandJam:
Wow I cannot believe you guys think this is acceptable on a $2100.00 dollar train. I mean it's not a cheap 300 dollar engine. My mortgage payment is less than that. I learned my lessen long ago. I test any engine I buy at my LHS for 20 minutes before I hand over my credit card. Plus if anything goes wrong fairly soon after the sale I return it for another Or a refund. I mean it seems anymore that you have to factor in the cost of shipping back to service as a given when you buy an engine. I don't care how nice an engine is, if it's not perfect it goes back. No engine is worth spending that kind of money and living with defects. Of the last 6 engines I bought, I had to exchange 4 due to electronic issues or cosmetic/broken item issues. And these were all 900.00 To 1300.00 engines I watched them open these from sealed shipping boxes. Maybe if you guys would stop accepting poor quality they would do something about it. Sending an item to Service should be the exception not the norm.
You make some good points Sand Jam. We all have to find a solution that makes sense to ourselves. Your method of swapping for new makes sense to you and it works. Your LHS seems to be on board with this which is a huge help to you. I swapped a few non working out of the box units at my LHS. I just bought a new MTH engine and it was DOA. It can be frustrating. I am at the point where I have enough to play with so if a new engine fails I just send it back to maker for repairs. Hopefully it will get better as far as quality control in manufacturing goes but if it doesnt it doesn't. This is a very unique hobby regarding this.
Originally Posted by SandJam:
Wow I cannot believe you guys think this is acceptable on a $2100.00 dollar train. I mean it's not a cheap 300 dollar engine. My mortgage payment is less than that. I learned my lessen long ago. I test any engine I buy at my LHS for 20 minutes before I hand over my credit card. Plus if anything goes wrong fairly soon after the sale I return it for another Or a refund. I mean it seems anymore that you have to factor in the cost of shipping back to service as a given when you buy an engine. I don't care how nice an engine is, if it's not perfect it goes back. No engine is worth spending that kind of money and living with defects. Of the last 6 engines I bought, I had to exchange 4 due to electronic issues or cosmetic/broken item issues. And these were all 900.00 To 1300.00 engines I watched them open these from sealed shipping boxes. Maybe if you guys would stop accepting poor quality they would do something about it. Sending an item to Service should be the exception not the norm.
I believe what you have described is called an "abusive relationship." In this case it is delineated upon commercial lines with the buyer playing the role of the victim.
At over $ 2000+ for what is purely a luxury item these type of product defects should not be occurring. What this case and others similar to it demonstrate is that there is a disconnect between what is going on in the factory in China and what should be reasonably expected by the end user.
Given the dollar amounts and the nature of the product involved, an objective outsider would probably see this particular situation as crazy.
I would not be interested in purchasing an item of this nature regardless of the level of my disposable income. Too many headaches.
I haven't been in contact with Lionel about my problem yet so I hope my comment is not unfair, but I think that the problem with this engine is (a) unlikely to be resolved by the oiling suggested by Mike R. earlier in this thread (I have tried it and it made no difference) and (b) seems to reflect some issue in the manufacturing process.
The gears in the fan mechanism look to me to be metal - see the Lionel replacement parts photo copied in the first part of this thread. The noise is from the gears inside the mechanism and I think that they are not properly seated in place. Either that or the DC motor that runs the mechanism is itself not properly aligned between the gear on its shaft and the main gear in the mechanism. These are things that can only be checked by taking off the body shell. If it wasn't for the warranty I'd be tempted to order a new gear mechanism and motor from Lionel and do the necessary work myself.
The motorized roof fans were an uncataloged feature of his engine and they are not referred to in the manual at all. The gear mechanism must have been specially made for this purpose and you'd think that production samples of them must have been tested before these units started to be manufactured. Given the importance of the set's sound features I don't believe Lionel would let them be built with defective fan gear mechanisms so I infer that some of them are either from a bad batch or were badly installed. That would also account for why there are many cases of one unit functioning OK and one not.
Everyone appreciates the great service from Lionel repairs but they are having to make up ground for manufacture/design faults that are really bothersome. I suppose an ideal system of QC would involve test running every engine and that would probably have revealed the noise issue with many of these before they were shipped. I can't imagine that this testing happens however.
Seems like all these extra "fiddly" features add more problems and less enjoyment than they're worth.
Rusty
