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Greetings.

I have a Lionel Boston and Maine Lashup with two single-motored GP9's and a dummy GP9 (factory # 6-11843). I purchased it used about 4 months ago and so far, have had to have both single-motored units repairs 3 times each. The problem: stripped gears. First I had the plastic gears (let's not even go there) replaced with metal gears. But even then, they strip out. I have never had such unreliable engines.

I am using a standard, tried and true old school Lionel ZW transformer to power the units. I almost always run the 3 engine lashup together as a single train unit. First I had the engines pulling passenger consists. All kinds of crazy thing were happening...couplers opening up on their own with no known explanation. When I blew the horn in quick blasts, it sent the two motored units into mystery mode, where the horn would not activate and one of the units had the bell go off on low volume. I believe the biggest issue, was the for some reason, the units starting driving in opposite directions during normal running, causing sudden super fast gear strop out. The gears stripped out twice pulling passenger consists. The three observation I made are that I seemed to have less problems when I did not blow the horn in quick blasts and allowed all the sound to stop before blowing again. The second was, perhaps due to the high load on the track with all the lighted passenger cars, the two motored units slowed considerably when blowing the horn and that effect was worse of the far side of the track. Lastly, the side on the ZW transformer where the lashup was hooked to heated up much faster than other passenger sets, but the maximum heat generated by the transformer was roughly the same as the other ZWs that I operate on other trains.

So I placed the lashup set on a freight consist to try it. I noted I was able to run the engines on about 17 or 18 volts on the ZW instead of 19 or 20 with the passenger cars. The transformer took longer to heat up without the passenger cars, but it still heats up faster than all the other trains I have. A few days ago, I blew the horn in quick succession thinking everything was running fine and then the motors were seized and not even making sound...once again (third time total).

I really like this colorful lashup...but I cannot have these reliability issues going forward. I could sell it, but I would rather permanently fix it, if possible. So can I ask for your help?

1) Will just blowing the horn after the prior blast has stopped making sound the solution that has worked for you?

2) Will putting both motors in a single GP9 and have two dummies instead of one work/help stop the problem? I understand that the tree engines communicate with one another, so I don't want to mess that up. If I take the motor out of the one power unit, that would leave it as a dummy with railsounds and just a Plain Jane dummy with direction lighting. Is this even possible with this factory lashup?

3) Is this a hopeless cause as the engines can only run properly with newer transformers and I should sell or simply display the lashup?

I know nearly all the trains now come with all sorts of gizmos that are beyond the standard old transformers, but I don't need or want those gizmos. This lashup is late 90's vintage from Lionel...after railsounds really got established in the industry. I wish the new items were more like the old ones,,,simple and reliable. I am perhaps younger than many others in the hobby, but I have a full blown appreciation of the simple and reliable aspects of the older locomotives. I don't even have a bell button installed for this lashup! I do like this lashup, a monthly trip to the repair guy is excessive and adding up last. I have included a picture in this post. Lionel made a few of these lashups for other railroad lines.

Thank you in advance for any and all help you can give me. The unit is too old for Lionel tech support and the owners manual doesn't state any of the issues I have been having either.

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  • Lionel Boston & Maine GP9 Lashup
Last edited by Maine Main Line
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That is a good looking set of engines...I assume you are not running in Command?? 

Taking either motor out and you won't have a way to mount the truck to the frame.  Getting rid of all the plastic gears is a good way to go.  I use the metal post war set up.   Are all programed the same number.  If you want the rear engine facing the opposite way of the lead engine, you can get the rear going the way you want and lock it out with the program  switch.

Marty

Martin Derouin posted:

That is a good looking set of engines...I assume you are not running in Command?? 

Taking either motor out and you won't have a way to mount the truck to the frame.  Getting rid of all the plastic gears is a good way to go.  I use the metal post war set up.   Are all programed the same number.  If you want the rear engine facing the opposite way of the lead engine, you can get the rear going the way you want and lock it out with the program  switch.

Marty

Thank you for responding. The units are a nice addition to my layout. I must say would rather have two motors in one unit though instead of two one motored units.

 You are correct, I don't use command. I don,t even have the device to use it. Now that you mention taking out a motor would leave me without an installable truck. As a matter of fact, the powered unit would not have any railsounds if it had two motors as the railsounds truck is different. I guess I could put one tailwinds truck in each of the non-powered units...so that I have trucks everywhere they should be.

I am getting the impression that moving motors and trucks around would be more trouble than it is worth. I can try to just not blow the horn in quick succession and see how long it goes. Have you ever heard of issues with these factory lashups? Do you have any other ideas?

What I have to say about these engines isn't good.

I have a set of these same B&M GP9's purchased used about 6 years ago.  I had the same issue with stripped gears, replaced them with metal and they still stripped.  I've also had electronic issues with them including suddenly reversing direction when passing through switches.

Frankly, I have concluded these engines are junk and not the best purchase I ever made.  

On the extremely rare occasions I run these now I do so using a single engine locked in forward on a train of no longer than six cars.  That, at least, seems to have stopped the drive gear from stripping and the sudden reversing.

Curt 

juniata guy posted:

What I have to say about these engines isn't good.

I have a set of these same B&M GP9's purchased used about 6 years ago.  I had the same issue with stripped gears, replaced them with metal and they still stripped.  I've also had electronic issues with them including suddenly reversing direction when passing through switches.

Frankly, I have concluded these engines are junk and not the best purchase I ever made.  

On the extremely rare occasions I run these now I do so using a single engine locked in forward on a train of no longer than six cars.  That, at least, seems to have stopped the drive gear from stripping and the sudden reversing.

Curt 

Thank you for your response. Is there a way I can lock the engines in one direction without command?

It sucks that Lionel would make suck a flawed product. The sound boards have what I would describe as a white, moldy substance on them. I don't dare clean the boards either. Those gears cannot be stripping from normal wear. It must be because one unit goes into reverse...maybe after I blow the horn in quick succession.

Please tell me how to lock the direction, hopefully without command, and I will try that.

Thanks so much.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a way to lock these in a direction by conventional means. You have to use TMCC to do so.  I suppose it could also be done using Legacy.

I think the stripping has something to do with the angle at which the motor sets in the truck.  I recollect reading something in the past that some Lionel engines had this problem and there was a way to shim the motor enough to prevent the gear from stripping.  Someone more knowledgeable than I would have to explain that process though.

Curt

Last edited by juniata guy
juniata guy posted:

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a way to lock these in a direction by conventional means. You have to use TMCC to do so.  I suppose it could also be done using Legacy.

I think the stripping has something to do with the angle at which the motor sets in the truck.  I recollect reading something in the past that some Lionel engines had this problem and there was a way to shim the motor enough to prevent the gear from stripping.  Someone more knowledgeable than I would have to explain that process though.

Curt

Thank you. I found you prior post response regarding stripped years. You said greasing is key. I bet that I had not put lube on the new metal gears when they were replaced. You mentioned using a worm gear. Is that different than normal replacement metal gears? Thanks.

Last edited by Maine Main Line

I don't have enough knowledge about running TMCC engines in conventional mode to be of much help. However, I have seen this set being run in a TMCC environment, and the operator wasn't having any problems with it. Lionel did these 3-engine sets in B&M, Wabash, and Florida East Coast liveries. Maybe there were some issues, but I've never heard any reports of this.

The reverse pulling you have must be quite severe to strip gears like that. I have quite a few of these Lionel Geeps from the same era, and they've been pretty bulletproof. I've put lots of miles on them without any problems, and have never had to replace any gears. I have also run two powered units together back-to-back in TMCC and Legacy environments, and have had no problems.

For whatever reason, running your two TMCC engines back-to-back in conventional mode is creating gear problems, and it sounds like you've had other control issues as well.  With all the money you've spent on repairs, you could have picked up a basic TMCC setup in the used market for far less, and be running the engines the way they were designed. My guess is that your problems would be solved, and you'd be having a lot more fun running them with TMCC, too.

 

Last edited by breezinup

I want to thank everyone for their input. I truly appreciate it. I know more on the matter than I did before. I try to research a product online before buying, especially model trains that can be quite pricey. Nothing came up that these lashups were junk before I bought it.

I just replaced the metal gears for the last time and now am selling it before it happens again. I ran the two engines separate on parallel tracks. One unit will start moving at lower voltage than the other...and likewise pull more. My tech was rubbing his head. And after the 3rd time he had to replace the gears, I would be too! If Lionel cannot synchronize their motors to prevent stripping of gears, then they should not make this sort of product. That's probably why lashups are sold much anymore...it is so hard to keep the units synchronized.'Well, lesson learned.

Maybe one day I will go with TMCC Command, but I like the old school, reliable stuff. The kind that will pull a long consist on low voltage and not even break a sweat. Besides, the replacement electronics are a fortune...and that is if you can even find them anymore! I think manufacturers should make more high quality, powerful and reliable old school locomotives with a realistic whistle or horn and a bell. Even leave off the railsounds. Right now I have friends who cannot even get parts for Mikes Train House rolling stock. The company is not making them. I think the industry needs a shake up and a wake up. They need to start making the stuff in the US again, make the items reliable, easy to use and easy to maintain and offer the support and parts their customers need. There's a reason the old locomotives and transformers work nearly 100 years later!!! That's just me though. I'm disappointed I have to unload my lashup, but I don't want to deal with the constant issues and repair costs. It is ashamed too as I would have bought another lashup and had them custom painted too. Again, thanks to all for their input.

OK. I. not done with this lashup yet, although it is for sale if someone wants it!!!

I noticed on one Lionel GP9 there are two truck-mounted can motors and the base frame has the same or a similar + markings on it.

For those who tinker with setups out there, I have some questions:

1) Are all Lionel GP9/GP7 shells have the screw holes in the same location so they are interchangeable?

 If #1 is a yes, then I should be able to transfer the Boston and Maine shell with the strobe light to the two can motor chassis. Then I could either use the horn that came with that chassis or cut the leads and wire in interior/strobe lights etc., but...

2) Since I cannot use the motorized trucks in the two current powered units, can the motorized trucks simply be removed and I could move over one truck with contact rollers over from the current dummy unit and place one of those in the front of each of the current powered units...basically making them dummies with Railsounds (as they already have a railsounds rear truck with contact rollers)?

I would hate having to pay $100 or so and then completely cannibalize a completely good GP9 to do this, but if it works, I could keep the lashup and modify it to make it reliable setup with two can motors in a powered unit and two dummy units both with railsounds. Maybe the fuel tank would look different on one unit, but if it works, who cares, right?

Any thoughts out there?

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  • Lionel GP9 Can Motors: Twin Can Motor Setup
Martin Derouin posted:

On those engines I believe the frame mounting holes are on the bottom of the shell on the inside.   Not sure if the two can motor is the same set up, you will have to turn it over and check it out....

Marty

Thanks for the info. I actually pulled apart an RS3 that I have. Other than a different truck style, the can motor set up  is virtually identical to the GP9 with can motors. However, the motorized GP9 I have has different wires coming from the existing motor to the sound board. There is a lot attached to the boards in the units. I know they communicate with one another. I guess changing everything around was wishful thinking. I'm good with general electrics but I am by no means a certified repair tech with board skills. Again, the technology is in the way on these new units out today. After taking a look, I don't want to start a project that may not end well and prevent me from getting a good sales price on the lashup. It wasn't cheap so I am hoping to break even on the thing, They were pretty engines.

I may be in left field here but the can motors are DC and if I'm correct you have Pul-mor motors which are AC so you probably have different electronics in the engine itself. 

Now with that said if your just swapping shells as long as they are both GP-7/9's you should be okay unless you go back to post war engines where they mounted thru the noses. 

Lionel made a number of traditional GP-9s with twin can motors. Only about 4 of them, though, all Chinese production. I have the C&O version, which came with a set, and plan to use it with another shell. There were three different shell mounting types going back to the 1970s MPC days, but your B&M engines have the most recent 4-screw type, with the screws going in from the bottom of each corner of the chassis into plastic shafts coming down from the shell. The twin can motored versions use the same mounting system. Thus, it should be relatively easy to put the B&M shell onto the can motor chassis.

Your primary issue will be the second powered unit, because I don't think the AC Pullmor motored engine is going to play well with the DC can motored unit. I think I would just buy a dummy engine to get the chassis, or buy one of the dummy B GP-9 units Lionel made, and use that chassis, and put the other B&M shell on that. That twin can motored engine will have plenty of power for what you're going to use it for, so you only need one powered unit. 

Last edited by breezinup

Well after about $200 in repairs and shipping, I am pleased to say that both notarized units are finally running well. Apparently this is one of Lionel's lemons. The motor trucks were not manufactured correctly. The worm gear was not in alignment with the other gears and the motored trucks, causing binding, and needed to be machined down...something I could not have done myself. So for now, the units have pulled both heavy passenger sets and long freight sets with good results and no gear stripping. The transformer still heats up usually faster than other sets, but everything is going well overall and I salvaged the bright blue diesel units. Hopefully this info helps others out there.

DennyM posted:

Here I thought it was just the LionChief GP9's that were having problems. A friend of mine who is with the LCCA had four of them (LC+) that were made for the LCCA and all of them had problems.

Which ones are you referring to? Were those the Boston & Maine LC+ GP-9 models? Are you talking about problems running powered units together (note that those sets came with one powered and one dummy unit, not two powered units). Other LC+ models I've heard about seem to run fine together.

DennyM posted:

Here I thought it was just the LionChief GP9's that were having problems. A friend of mine who is with the LCCA had four of them (LC+) that were made for the LCCA and all of them had problems.

Hi Dennym. Yeah, apparently the more recent Lionel GP9s being turned out aren't even made right. Sad Lionel got caught making a bad product line. Even now with the two locomotives having their trucks machined for proper alignment, the two engines are not perfectly synced together and one runs on less voltage and starts on less voltage than the other, I have been assured that no two motors are exactly alike and that the reason the gears stripped on a bi-weekly bases was because to gear binding due to faulty-manufactured motor trucks and not because they are out on sync. Like I said, so far so good...but the two motorized units still like to heat up the ol' ZWs faster than other sets I have.

The GP9's are not Lion Chiefs. I am trying to stick to the older "newer" technology so I don't have to get into super expensive electronics and necessitate me buying a $700 transformer. Here is a video of the set (not mine). There are two single-motored GP9's and a dummy GP9. The threesome was sold as a set.

https://youtu.be/mmEl4AEieXE

Lionel Boston and Maine GP-9 Lashup #6-11843

breezinup posted:
DennyM posted:

Here I thought it was just the LionChief GP9's that were having problems. A friend of mine who is with the LCCA had four of them (LC+) that were made for the LCCA and all of them had problems.

Which ones are you referring to? Were those the Boston & Maine LC+ GP-9 models? Are you talking about problems running powered units together (note that those sets came with one powered and one dummy unit, not two powered units). Other LC+ models I've heard about seem to run fine together.

Yes it was the Boston & Maine LC+. He was not happy about it either.  Running them together wasn't the problem, they would stop working all together and one didn't work out of the box. I had bought one from him and It had to be fixed three separate times. I finally told him I no longer wanted it which he didn't have a problem with and gave me my money back. I used the money to get ERR boards for my Williams U33C.

I have had that B&M lash-up set for a decade and have never had an issue operating them until I programed them to the legacy cab 2 recently. I usually keep them parked on a siding on my layout. I recently purchased a pair of legacy gp7's, also in the bluebird colors. WOW the technology is incredible. And the smoke unit will fill the room. Back to the lash up...ever since I've been running the legacy engines the old TMCC lash-up turns itself on and off, the lights blink, and it moves in small jerking motions when it's not even addressed by the legacy cab 2 controller. I think they are mad because I bought the new ones. I have noticed the pair of motorized engines from the lash-up run at different speeds, Simply hitting the engine reset "0" resynced them. I think operation in transformer mode would make that not possible and then they would fight each other. Also I did disable the electro couplers because they never would stay closed.

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Hi Maine main line, sorry you are having such issues.

I have a suggestion when your trio is disposed of.

PW Lionel 2359 B&M GP9

PW Lionel 2346 B&M GP9

lionel 6-8654 and 6-8655  early (metal gear magnatraction) set.

Williams B&M GP9 Red  Box issue (NOT the current silver box Bachman issue)

I have had each of these engines, they have reliable metal gears and drive.

Traditional trains, non sound, non chip are probably going to satisfy your needs.

the Bay has some good deals going on.

best of luck.

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