lionel HO in 2018

How about the veranda turbine and challenger already done in HO so no new tooling $$$ will have be used.

Nicks Trains posted:

How about the veranda turbine and challenger already done in HO so no new tooling $$$ will have be used.

The tooling for both engines went to MTH as a result of the big lawsuit.

Stuart

One wonder why...

Lionel's never been able to successfully establish themselves with the HO crowd.  The HO Polar Express landed with a thud.  The only thing I can think of is "de-Polarizing" the HO Berkshire and toss in a few contracted freight cars to recover tooling costs, then walk away from HO again.

Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann Spectrum, Rapido, Scale Trains and Walthers (to name a few) are tough competition to go up against.

Rusty

Stuart posted:

Nicks Trains posted:

How about the veranda turbine and challenger already done in HO so no new tooling $$$ will have be used.

The tooling for both engines went to MTH as a result of the big lawsuit.

Stuart

 

Interesting,  I didn't realize that before.  We do see Lionel HO Challengers for sale from time to time. Who made these for Lionel please?

I must assume then that the MTH Challenger could be made by the same manufacturer but with MTH electronics?

If Lionel had done a scale version of the polar express instead of the molded in, non scale of the one they produced and passenger cars that actually looked like the polar express maybe they could have gotten themselves in the ho market. 

But as it is they screwed up the chance to get into another scale and increase sales. 

Wanted to buy one but after seeing the monstrosity they produced, I passed it by. 

Dave

david1 posted:

If Lionel had done a scale version of the polar express instead of the molded in, non scale of the one they produced and passenger cars that actually looked like the polar express maybe they could have gotten themselves in the ho market. 

But as it is they screwed up the chance to get into another scale and increase sales. 

Wanted to buy one but after seeing the monstrosity they produced, I passed it by. 

Dave

I don't think a detailed Polar Express would have done much better.  It really boils down to what does Lionel have to offer in HO that the well established HO manufacturer/importers don't? 

Legacy?  Doubt it.  HO is a conventional DC and DCC realm.  Granted, Lionel does have DCC coding in Legacy now (and it works pretty well in my S Flyer locomotives,) but it's not going to be a major selling point, particularly with the limited CV's available to the user.  And sound decoders are available (and installed in some products) from ESU, Digitrax, and WOWsound and are easily replaceable thanks to the standard wiring plugs.

LionChief?  Really now.  See above.

Detail?  Again: Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann Spectrum, Broadway Limited, Rapido, Scale Trains and Walthers (to name a few.)

Starter Sets?  Maybe, but Athearn, Bachmann and Life-Like all offer a range of starter sets.

Track?  Atlas, Bachmann, Kato, Life-Like all have attached roadbed track systems.  Then there's the many manufactures of flex track and turnouts.

One of the things Lionel seems to depend on in their business model is built-in brand loyalty.  It's pretty well established in O, not so well established in S and in HO doesn't exist.  HO folks will buy from pretty much anyone as long as it fits their needs/wants/desires.  There are no one-manufacturer only model railroads in HO.

Rusty

Stuart posted:

Nicks Trains posted:

How about the veranda turbine and challenger already done in HO so no new tooling $$$ will have be used.

The tooling for both engines went to MTH as a result of the big lawsuit.

Stuart

 

They did?  I thought the terms of the lawsuit were sealed.  I also don't remember HO being part of that lawsuit.  What's the source of this information?  Not trying to push any buttons but from time to time we hear what the outcome of the lawsuit was based on the Tinplate license and such but this is the first I've even heard of the HO rumor.

One of the problems of the HO PE set IMO was it was ala carte  and not sold as a set.  I think with a track and transformer it would have done better.  The price point was a little steep too even with a discount but I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of pricing.

I think there will be several sets, including a polar express set. Maybe even a new track system. 

Instead  of HO Lionel should get into N gauge to help the O gaugers who have run out of room. They should work a deal with Kato to Americanize their instructions and get better distribution for their product.

MIKATT1 posted:

Instead  of HO Lionel should get into N gauge to help the O gaugers who have run out of room. They should work a deal with Kato to Americanize their instructions and get better distribution for their product.

 

Nothing is stopping O Gaugers who run out of room from buying N Scale from Kato or anyone else.  Kato is their own manufacturer, distributor and with some custom products, dealer and would have nothing to gain by cutting a deal with Lionel. 

Their distribution of N Scale is working just fine and they have a high percentage of meeting their target dates for delivery.

Every Kato product I've bought has included instructions printed in English.

Rusty

"outcome of the lawsuit was based on the Tinplate license and such but this is the first I've even heard of the HO rumor."

As far as I know, the only thing that changed hands in the settlement of the lawsuit was money.  Amount was not disclosed publicly, because, as Marty noted, the settlement was not disclosed by the bankruptcy court in which the agreement was reached.  I'm pretty sure the licensure of the Lionel name for tinplate had nothing to do with the lawsuit, and was negotiated between the companies after that kerfuffle was settled.

The only Lionel HO products I'm aware of in recent years were the Polar Express.  The next catalog is rumored to be a single catalog with all Lionel scales, so that should answer the question tomorrow .

What might have become of the Lionel Challenger and Veranda Turbine then?

There is a forum member who is quite knowledgeable about these and has quite a few of the Challengers in his personal collection. Perhaps he'll see this and chime in...

Lionel Tried HO in the late 50's thru mid 60's and it was a flop for them then. Tried it again I think in 70's or 80's and became another flop, So why should they try it again. Beats me. But time will tell. 

"Asked and answered, your honor."

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ly=70129856284007661

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ly=70411412206314718

TRW

We have lots of HO and I didn't buy the HO PE because it just wasn't nice enough. It was kind of a turd in the detail department but was still a fair amount of money. If they had made it up to snuff with a BLI loco and the cars I'd have been all over it but as such it really wouldn't fit with what I have or my taste

PaperTRW posted:

"Asked and answered, your honor."

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ly=70129856284007661

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ly=70411412206314718

TRW

From your previous post...

"I understand that tooling for both of these locomotives was transferred to MTH as a partial settlement towards the legal judgment."

Again first time I saw this.  I know your connection with Lionel so I would have to assume this information is closer to fact than most folks that discuss the lawsuit settlements.

So, it appears Lionel is "running out the clock" with the Polar Express tooling. 

4 sets all with a Berkshire and 3 passenger cars (PE, North Pole Central, NYC and Santa Fe) oval of track, wall wart and LionChief controller.

No other HO.

Rusty

IMHO, Lionel needs to just stay out of HO altogether.The name is laughable with the majority of the HO scale model crowd. Athearn,Broadway Limited,Bachmann,Kato,Walthers and many other players dominate that scale with plenty excellent products. MTH is viewed suspiciously as a "toy train company" and a minor player. BTW - I'm a member of a very large and active HO train club.

Boomer posted:

...... MTH is viewed suspiciously as a "toy train company" and a minor player. ....

And, there's still some dislike of MTH among HO'ers because of the DCC lawsuits.

EBT Jim posted:

Boomer posted:

...... MTH is viewed suspiciously as a "toy train company" and a minor player. ....

And, there's still some dislike of MTH among HO'ers because of the DCC lawsuits.

I thought it was one of the guys behind Broadway Limited that tried to claim all the DCC glory.

Rusty

rtraincollector posted:

Lionel Tried HO in the late 50's thru mid 60's and it was a flop for them then. Tried it again I think in 70's or 80's and became another flop, So why should they try it again. Beats me. But time will tell. 

IOW...

I believe this is the 5th dive into the shallow end of the How Ordinary pool for the orange/blue gang.

My guess is that it has something to do with a titanium-grip on the Polar Express licensing...read: exclusive.  The book, the movie, the 1225 in Owosso, MI, and its holiday season rides...it all stokes the PE boiler for the kids, big and little,.......sorta the way Thomas The Tank Engine does with its enduring following.

So, when you hold the license for something this sacred, and you're not yet serving the biggest market in the world of model railroading (HO...), the pressure builds until the boardroom pop valve goes off.  You wring your hands...or slap high fives..., put on your tighty-whiteys, roll up your sleeves, get a blessing from Yoda, ....and sally forth into the merry megamarket......again, HO....

But, once again, ........IMHO, of course.....

Oh well, maybe with a variety of paint jobs and flags, packaging into a set box at a competitive everyman price with an oval of exclusive track and an adequate power source/control, and repeated cataloging, the tooling and chutzpah will be amortized and, once again, there'll be peace in the valley.

Sort of like the motto of my former employer's production department: "Ours is not to question 'Why?'  Ours is but to Tool and Die!"

I don't know if Lionel will have any luck in HO this time around, but the reasons I keep seeing on this forum for why it will not work out have nothing to do with the current catalog.

Lionel released a catalog with basic starter sets, not scale pieces for the more typical HO scale modeler. Additionally these sets have bluetooth and each come with a remote of its own. Bachmann keeps coming out with HO engines and sets for bluetooth control with your smart device...so there is clearly a market for this. Having its own remote also means that the Lionel set can be run even by someone without a smart device.

The question is, are people that would normally be buying HO starter sets go for these Lionel sets, not if you or I would.

SGP posted:

I don't know if Lionel will have any luck in HO this time around, but the reasons I keep seeing on this forum for why it will not work out have nothing to do with the current catalog.

Lionel released a catalog with basic starter sets, not scale pieces for the more typical HO scale modeler. Additionally these sets have bluetooth and each come with a remote of its own. Bachmann keeps coming out with HO engines and sets for bluetooth control with your smart device...so there is clearly a market for this. Having its own remote also means that the Lionel set can be run even by someone without a smart device.

The question is, are people that would normally be buying HO starter sets go for these Lionel sets, not if you or I would.

I run all gauges, and have a ton of HO.  I even have a fair amount of the Lionel HO from the 50's and 60's and love running all of it.  One thing I tend to follow is the sets that are put out each year, because those tend to have a lot of imagination into them, geared toward getting a casual person into the hobby.

I would love to get one of these new Lionel HO sets, but the price is just a bit out of range for someone to buy and get started in the hobby, especially for HO gauge.  And for that money, I'll seek out a good LGB set or something commensurate with that price for a set.

As for the Polar Express license, I'm glad Lionel has it and how much success they've had with the O and G Gauge versions.  But the S and HO ones didn't seem to hit the mark too well.

On top of that, Bachmann is slated to release a "North Pole Explorer" train set this year, which looks very familiar.  Oh, it's pulled by a 2-6-2, but carries number 1225 and the passenger cars are in a very familiar paint scheme...

And yeah, I'm going to get one, because the price will be a good amount less than MSRP, and Bachmann stuff tends to be discounted a good amount depending on where you get it.

The Lionel HO PE may not end up at that price point, and I missed the deals Charles Ro and Trainworld had on the loco and cars last year.