Lionel / Ives Clockwork Loco

Thanks Teledoc!

With the Ives Pullman’s, 1811 and 1812, it would have made it Set 1583.  The tender, would be #1502, made in 1931.

James, Here is a link to the Ives website, but it is a little tricky maneuvering through it, to find what you are looking for.  As I mentioned earlier, as a Set, it would have had the 1503 loco, 1502 tender, 1811 Pullman, 1812 Observation, 1813 Baggage cars, to make the complete Set.  If you decide to venture onto the Ives website, look at the bottom of the page, where you should see one block, that is marked "Index".  Click on that, and then in the upper left, is another block for 0 gauge Sets.  That will brink up a page, listing various loco numbers, and search for the 1503 loco.  It will show you two different Sets, with one including the 1811, 1812 combo.  That will show you the passenger cars mentioned above. This is just for your info, if you run across any of the other cars, in your travels.

http://ivestrains.org/CD/O_Gau...s/clockwork.htm#1503

James,  I have to ask a question with your 1506 loco, listed above.  Is there any type switch in the cab, for activating a headlight???  The first issues were catalogued as 1506L, which had a headlight, used a “C” battery, with a switch in the cab.  I think the cataloging with the “L”, meant it had a light.  The later issue, catalogued in 1935, was plain 1506, and possibly shown in Guide books as the 1506M, because it was used with the Mickey Mouse set.  Would appreciate you looking at yours.

A modern C battery will not quite fit in the opening of mine. Need to check and see if the motor is sitting a bit too far back.

Steve

Steve, I have read comments about removing the paper covering, off of a C battery, but those reference were from old style batteries.  Your loco is the 1506L, and I need James to verify if he has No Switch in his recent find.  The Transition period from Ives, to Lionel-Ives, to straight Lionel, is hard to date certain Locos, either electric or windup.  I think I discovered an error in the TCA Standard of the World book, which isn’t earth shattering.  They show the 1506, with headlight/bell/brake; the 1506L Not having the headlight.  It should be the opposite, with 1506L with the headlight.  Some books also show a 1506M.  ??????

James,  I went back and looked at your above windup, and mistakenly identified as IVES 1503.  It is LIONEL, because the windup key goes over a Squared post, similar to a “skate key”(remember those?), where the Ives key is threaded into the side frame.  Your loco is Lionel 1506/1506L, depending on if yours has a headlight & battery well.  If it has a headlight, that is the 1506L.   If NO headlight, or access for a battery, and slide switch, that would be the 1506, sometimes listed as 1506M, because it was issued only in 1935, and was the “ Mickey Mouse Stoker tender loco.  Sorry for the wrong identification earlier.

Yes, my locomotive has a battery compartment and switch in the cab.  The smokebox door was missing, so it has a Marx 833 smokebox door on it, which is why it doesn't have a headlight on the front... but it should.  So, that would make it a Lionel 1506L, if I am understanding correctly.

So, based on your information above:

Ives - Threaded key, 1501 came in all red boiler & frame, 1503 had black boiler & red frame.

Lionel - Square winding stem, 1506 didn't have a headlight, battery compartment or switch, the 1506M was the same except it cane with the Mickey Mouse tender, and the 1506L has all the headlight paraphernalia.

Do the black drivers or red drivers have an significance?  I've acquired another parts loco that would be a 1506L, and it has black drivers instead of red.

Many thanks for all of your information and help, I certainly do appreciate it!

James, The 1501 was all Red, and 1503 was Black over Red. The 1501 had no side rods, but the later 1503 had side rods.   The 1506L had battery compartment, light, & switch inside the cab.  The 1506 (sometimes listed in catalogs with 1506M, was issued in 1935 Only, to be used with the “Mickey Mouse 1509T Stoker tender”, which would indicate it was strictly for Mickey Mouse Sets (Set 1532), and only offered in the Set, never sold as separate sale item.  The color of the drivers came both ways of red & black, probably just what was available.  If you notice the drivers only show 8 spokes.  If anything other than 8 spokes, it was modified.

Ironically, Ives also made a 1506, in 1931-32, by Lionel, at the Ives factory, (post Ives bankruptcy, & before Lionel moved production to N.J.). To tell an Ives from a Lionel, at a quick glance, is to see if the Sand pipes are two vs. one coming down the sides of the boiler.  Ives had two sand pipes, where Lionel only had one.  Hope this helps, and thanks for the answer that you have the 1506L.

WindupGuy posted:

Yes, my locomotive has a battery compartment and switch in the cab.  The smokebox door was missing, so it has a Marx 833 smokebox door on it, which is why it doesn't have a headlight on the front... but it should.  So, that would make it a Lionel 1506L, if I am understanding correctly.

So, based on your information above:

Ives - Threaded key, 1501 came in all red boiler & frame, 1503 had black boiler & red frame.

Lionel - Square winding stem, 1506 didn't have a headlight, battery compartment or switch, the 1506M was the same except it cane with the Mickey Mouse tender, and the 1506L has all the headlight paraphernalia.

Do the black drivers or red drivers have an significance?  I've acquired another parts loco that would be a 1506L, and it has black drivers instead of red.

Many thanks for all of your information and help, I certainly do appreciate it!

My 1501 has a square male winding shaft. Also has a bell.

Steve

An interesting thing about the Lionel and Ives motors. They look almost identical, but mirror images. Most of the same parts, but on opposite sides of the motor frames. The Lionel spring is a bit wider though.

Steve

Steve, It's interesting doing the research on the "Transition" part of Ives, Lionel-Ives, then strictly Lionel, over the 1931-1934 time frame.  Some parts are from the Ives inventory, some were from Lionel, and a combination of both.  Most of these were made in Bridgeport, CT, at the old Ives factory, and ended in New Jersey at the end of production.  When you compare the early Ives motors, they are narrower at 5/8" wide, and a smaller spring, and threaded key.  The Lionel-Ives, & Lionel motors measure 3/4" wide, with a wider spring, and the box shaped key shaft.  An interesting characteristic with the boilers on the Ives 1506 (Non battery, or headlight, and the Lionel 1506's is 4 round dots just in front of the cab.  Lionel apparently kept the dies/tooling for the boiler, to make the Ives loco, and the Lionel issues.  They only created a new frame, to make the 1506L, for the battery opening, but used the same boiler.  Then when you throw the "Winner" locos into the mix, you have the 1015 & 1035 locos, but Powered units, there are two different boilers.  The 1015 has "Winner" plates directly behind the Steamchest, and under the windows of the cab, NO 4 round dots.  The 1035, added a headlight, and used the boiler stamping of the 1506's, and had the 4 round dots in front of the cab.  Researching thesed locos, mostly windups, plus the later powered units, it makes your head spin...LOL.  I have been studying all these bodies, and the comparisons from Ives to Lionel.  I have to get in down on paper, then create a document, when time permits.  It's fun though.

Check your boiler, if it has the 4 round dots just forward of the cab.  If that is what you have, because of the motor windup key, you don't have the 1501, but the Lionel 1506(M), which is the Mickey Mouse version, without any headlight.

Steve & James,  Here is the link to Ives 0 gauge locos.  Scroll down the page, until you find the 1501 listing, and click on the 1501 loco.  It will show all three windups, 1501, 1503, & 1506, on the same page.  The 1501 & 1503 have a different boiler than the 1506, and are smaller, than the 1506.  Both the 01 & 03 bodies are shorter, and narrower, with the cab floor extending beyond the cab side walls.  The 1506 is larger, and the cab floor is even with the end of the cab.  None these windups had a bell.  Your supposed 1501, having a bell, would be a motor from Lionel's 1508 motor, that came with a bell.  I realize the 1508 and it's companion 1511 are Commodore Vanderbilt locos, but one had a bell (1508), and the 1511 had a whistle.  these motors only appeared in these two locos.

http://ivestrains.org/CD/O_Gauge/loco0.htm

Steve,  I have to ask a question regarding your 1501.  Where does the cab floor line up with the cab side walls??  Are they all in line, or does the floor extend beyond the cab side walls?  That distinguishes which loco you have.   

Steve, Just to clarify my previous request, here is the cab of either the 1501, or 1503. Although this is the 1503, with side rods.  The 1501 has No side rods.  The cab floor extends past the cab walls.

Going back to james’ Post up top, the 1506, either Ives version, or Lionel’s 1506(L), the cab floor is even with the end of the cab walls.  The 1501/03 has two sandpipes coming down from the sand dome.  The 1506 has one single sandpipe.

TeleDoc posted:

Steve,  I have to ask a question regarding your 1501.  Where does the cab floor line up with the cab side walls??  Are they all in line, or does the floor extend beyond the cab side walls?  That distinguishes which loco you have.   

My cab floor extends past the rear of the cab.

Steve

Thanks Steve, It makes it a 1501 if it doesn’t have side rods, or the 1503 with side rods.  Because they were made after Lionel took over Ives, it used a conglomeration of parts from both, as far as motors.

Teledoc, if you would put all this information on Lionel mechanical locomotives into a book, I would be first in line to buy it... 

A book would be nice but I'd be fine with a "booklet/pamphlet" with this type of topics.  Like teledoc  stated that it takes so much time researching and the note taking to keep everything straight. Books take chapters on individual items and take years to compile. Plus this topic wouldn't be for the average collector. Example, I took an Ives train to my club one night and no one in the club knew what I had. They kept stating "Thant's Marx" So If someone researched a topic like this one has been so far, I'd rather be able to obtain just 1 topic. 

Thanks guys, for the comments.  I have been studying, & researching the Transition period of the Ives items that were actually made by Lionel, from 1930-1932 of Ives& Lionel-Ives.  It’s enough to make your head spin, looking at the subtle differences, from the tooling of the early windups, to the last windups.  I am toying with the idea of creating an Excel spread sheet, plus I know the certain patents, for some items.  I need some time, to compile everything.  If I can get something like this done, I can post it later.  The researching is fun, but really time consuming!! 

Along with the windup research, I have a whole list of Patent numbers, of mostly Prewar Patents.  That, by itself, took hours of looking through pages of patents.  I’ll get that in the future, putting to paper.