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Hello

I just opened my new-to-me JLC scale GG1 and it will not run more than half an inch or so. A quick examination shows the truck side frames to be distorted with zinc rot. Reading the old posts and looking on the Lionel website brings no joy.

Are these side frames still not available? Part number is 6108371035. Catalog number of the loco is 6-18372.

Has any one come up with a solution or a work around?

Sure is a nice looking loco and sure is a bummer that it cannot be operated. Hard to believe that a high end piece like this can only be used as a door stop.

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J Daddy posted:

If you contact Bob Karas he may have an extra set of side frames for you. He had a few extra of these at the last York. 

He's been the only source I've found.  I had one arrive mint in the box with disintegrated frames, and discovered my other one sitting on the shelf had the same issue.  The repairs weren't cheap, but it beat a couple of $400 paperweights.

Greetings Everyone,

Sorry to sound facetious but Good Luck finding these.  I purchased a 6-18374 Lionel Pennsylvania GG1 #4866 Silver Single Stripe a couple years ago at York.  I didn’t notice the “Zinc Rot” until I got her home and was able to do a complete and thorough inspection.  I contacted Lionel which resulted in No Joy.  Fortunately for me, I purchased the last two form S&W Parts Supply sometime last year and was able to replace the bad Powered Truck Side Frame with Pilot.  I’ll probably get yanked for saying this but IMO Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time.  BTW, while at York I actually saw more than one JLC GG1 where the Power Truck Side Frames with Pilot were laying in pieces inside the Styrofoam box.

Chief Bob (Retired)   

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

Bob Karas posted:

I had 24 of them and sold them all on the form. I replaced them on 2 of my own  because of sink rot.

The new gg1 side frame will not fit ,Lionel re-tooled the motor trucks so there side frames do not fit. I tried it

 

  

Bob, were the ones you had new old stock, or were they reproductions of some sort?

J Daddy posted:

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

Hi J Daddy,

If you are going to quote me, please be sure to include the entire quote with all the words.  You left out "IMO" which changes the context of the statement that you actually quoted which suggests that I somehow had information that Lionel actually knew of the problem and intentionally hid it.  It was my opinion because that's all it was, just an opinion.  My supposition was such because there were so many of the JLC GG1's that displayed this defect and the subsequent shortage or unavailable of replacement parts should have raised a red flag.  Several years ago I had a MTH Railking PRR K4 tender completely destroyed by Zinc Pest.  I contacted MTH and a replacement tender was provided.  I would think that smaller parts would be easier to stock in quantity.  Just sayin'

Chief Bob (Retired)

I've been watching this "topic" ever since it reared it rotted head years ago.

Since Lionel is basically disowning this problem, I can think of only 3 realistic options if new tooling needs to be made. 

1) Lost wax brass castings, 2) 3-D printing, or 3) styrene injection.  One of these aforementioned methods is the only way to guarantee an elimination of zinc rot.

Fred

Is it possible to buy the whole truck assembly AND side frames from the Vision model?  I mean, they're both scale models of the GG-1, right?  Assuming the shells are the same, if you wanted to spend a fortune and buy side frames, truck blocks, motors, chassis, etc., and swap parts, you would eventually end up with an operable model.

Caveat Emptor, I know.  But zinc pest (and the lack of replacement parts) is a big issue.  There ought to be a persistent "watch list" on the Forum, or somewhere else on the web that folks can refer to, and be informed that there's a known risk of zinc rot for certain products.

It's true that if a pricey loco lands on the watch list, this could devalue a dealer's shelf inventory, especially if he or she has multiple examples in stock.  However, that dealer has more leverage to go back to the manufacturer and force a run of replacement parts than individual buyers do.  A dealer also has the option to take a markdown on the value of inventory ("write-off") and sell them as-is with full disclosure.

For example: I've always been curious about the 763E / 700E.  Cost aside, I've seen & heard enough about warped frames, crumbling tenders, etc.  I don't have $2500 to lose, so I just stay away!!  The early 700E is a well-known case.  All I'm saying is, there's enough combined knowledge on the Forum to create a modern era list.  It could even drive an effort by the OE manufacturers (or cottage 3D printers, etc.), to re-run critical and hard-to-find parts.

This is part of how the TCA was born.  By the 1950s, many of the standard gauge classics suffered from crumbling wheels, pilots, trim parts, etc.  Great folks like MEW, Hennings, etc., became aware of the need and reissued them, from the original or new tooling.  Now I know there's a LOT more variety in production today than there was with the mass-produced trains of the '20s & 30s.  But we also have a vastly improved ability to share information, and when 3D printing matures, perhaps a better means of making the parts in small batches. 

Let's think about it!

Last edited by Ted S

Reading about these metal rotting problems on trains that are 10 or so years old makes me feel we're a bunch of suckers. This is a sorry state of affairs from Lionel and MTH. To date, I've only experienced crumbling trucks on my Atlas die-cast coal hoppers, but who knows what's going on inside boxes of trains that I've had in storage. Fortunately, I was able to buy replacement trucks directly from Atlas - but with any of this stuff one has to wonder if it'll hold-up.

Last edited by Paul Kallus
Paul Kallus posted:

Reading about these metal rotting problems on trains that are 10 or so years old makes me feel we're a bunch of suckers. This is a sorry state of affairs from Lionel and MTH. To date, I've only experienced crumbling trucks on my Atlas die-cast coal hoppers, but who knows what's going on inside boxes of trains that I've had in storage. Fortunately, I was able to buy replacement trucks directly from Atlas - but with any of this stuff one has to wonder if it'll hold-up.

Hey Paul, 

I'm not sure I would take this issue so personally. It doesn't make it any less painful, but zinc problems have existed in this industry since the beginning. Prewar, postwar, modern. They have all had issues and manufacture does not matter. I think where people get frustrated is that we know what causes the problem and how to correct it but we choose not to.

Look at it from a factory standpoint.  If you know you have a bad pour with contaminated metals but you also know that if you finish the product and it won't cause an issue for ten years and that your importer won't catch it under a initial visual inspection, then most companies especially those who know their relationships with the importer are not long term will take the shortcut. As bad as that sounds, I really feel like the truth falls into that realm. 

Someone is going to have to take the initiative to 3D scan a set of good JLC side frames and re-make them. That's a real passion project for such a small niche, but clearly a market exists. The question is how much are people willing to pay for a set of good side frames? Is $125 for side frames for a $500 engine worth it? This is a big open ended question with not many answers. Time will tell how the situation is handled. 

PUFFRBELLY posted:
J Daddy posted:

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

Hi J Daddy,

If you are going to quote me, please be sure to include the entire quote with all the words.  You left out "IMO" which changes the context of the statement that you actually quoted which suggests that I somehow had information that Lionel actually knew of the problem and intentionally hid it.  It was my opinion because that's all it was, just an opinion.  My supposition was such because there were so many of the JLC GG1's that displayed this defect and the subsequent shortage or unavailable of replacement parts should have raised a red flag.  Several years ago I had a MTH Railking PRR K4 tender completely destroyed by Zinc Pest.  I contacted MTH and a replacement tender was provided.  I would think that smaller parts would be easier to stock in quantity.  Just sayin'

Chief Bob (Retired)

Chief Bob - Sorry about that - did not want to offend.  My point was is as time will go on, the amount of models that have the zinc rot will become apparent.  As you know manufactures see this issue 2 or more years after the parts are made.  Where the trains are stored can make the problem worse. 

I have been on the same soap box looking for parts. But its sounds like with the move to the Vision Line GG1, the JLC truck tooling may not be available anymore. And if the tool is available to run again. Its going to take a whole lot of them to fail in the near future for Lionel to set that die up and run parts again.

 

Well is sure is a bummer that an expensive, feature-laden piece like this can only be used as a door stop.

NOBODY has any ideas of a work around or how to get these locos running??

The Chinese factories really do not grasp the concept of repair/replacement parts. Everything they make is single use. When it breaks, throw it away. The previous president of Lionel, Calebreese, had the same outlook  and one time tried to get all the repair parts removed from inventory.

Last edited by RoyBoy

Fortunately, the side frames on my sample of the JLC GG1 (Brunswick green, five stripe) are still perfect, and the piece still looks great and functions beautifully. The good news is that the problem is not universal. However, this is small comfort for those who do have the issue. The "old" Lionel would have had the parts. The "new" Lionel , well .....

Sincerely hope that there can be a resolution for those with the problem.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck
PUFFRBELLY posted:
J Daddy posted:

"Lionel knew about this problem but kept it under wraps which, I believe, is the reason for these parts being practically non-existent.  When I initially spoke with Lionel, I asked if the new Vision Line GG1 Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot would fit the JLC GG1’s, I was told that it was unknown because they didn’t have any replacement parts available for the VL GG1 at that time."

Actually, Lionel did not know about this issue. Zinc rot happens over time when a casting that has bad porosity in the shot or bad "regrind" material. It could  take 12 months or even years to rear its ugly head. High humidity or changes in temperature can accelerate its failure. 

It was stated before that the Vision Line side frames and trucks are NOT interchangeable, So new shots of the old tool would be the only replacement. If it exist. 

Best bet is to stay clear of the JLC GG1.

Hi J Daddy,

If you are going to quote me, please be sure to include the entire quote with all the words.  You left out "IMO" which changes the context of the statement that you actually quoted which suggests that I somehow had information that Lionel actually knew of the problem and intentionally hid it.  It was my opinion because that's all it was, just an opinion.  My supposition was such because there were so many of the JLC GG1's that displayed this defect and the subsequent shortage or unavailable of replacement parts should have raised a red flag.  Several years ago I had a MTH Railking PRR K4 tender completely destroyed by Zinc Pest.  I contacted MTH and a replacement tender was provided.  I would think that smaller parts would be easier to stock in quantity.  Just sayin'

Chief Bob (Retired)

Yes, & now you know - MTH is more reliable when it comes to backing up their product & having parts available.  While my dealings with Lionel Service Dept. was always good (in years past) the Lionel OF TODAY is sadly not THE Lionel of YESTER YEARS.

I have a tuscan 5-stripe JLC GG1 that has no zinc pest issues with the trucks, so they are not all defective.  I have some items with zinc pest (Lionel, Atlas, older 3rd Rail, and MTH), all in the trucks and couplers, except for two MTH EMD switcher calves, which have a bit of zinc pest paint peeling on the die cast frames.

I also have a Lionel 700E and a 763E with no zinc pest issues, both in their original boxes.  I do have a spare 700E tender (700W) with some warping.  I also have a Lionel 225E with a bit of zinc pest deformation in the boiler.

It seems that zinc pest was really only a major problem with some pre-war items.  I do not recall seeing it on post war or "modern" items other than as noted above, and it really seems to be limited almost exclusively to trucks and couplers on modern trains.

 

Some of my recent experiences.  Seen in my collection and repair services.

Postwar 681 frame.  Cracking, swelling.  Drivers wouldn't turn.  Had to replace.

KLine diesel drive wheels disintegrating.  Usually the geared wheels but have seen them all fall apart.

Lionel modern electrocouplers.  Disintegrating.

I bought all six of the JLC GG1's.  The disintegrating side frames were on the silver and the green solid stripe version.  The other four were and are OK.  I changed them out with Lionel parts dept. replacements.

And of course many, many Prewar cast pieces.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the single stripe green one, and I decided to once again inspect all the trucks and side frames.  If there is any deterioration, I can't find it, I even took the side frames off and looked them over.  I suspect it was specific dates and batches of the trucks and sideframes that have the issue, not necessarily the color combinations.

But unless they had unfortunate luck and made a lot of extras with the batches that were defective, wouldn't that correlate pretty well to the decorative scheme?

Considering they don't make spare parts to keep around, it wouldn't seem likely that any would normally be left over to infect a later run after being assembled into the specific item they were manufactured for originally.

Weren't the color combinations each only offered once, or did they repeat some of the early ones later?

-Dave

Ted S posted:

...Caveat Emptor, I know.  But zinc pest (and the lack of replacement parts) is a big issue.  There ought to be a persistent "watch list" on the Forum, or somewhere else on the web that folks can refer to, and be informed that there's a known risk of zinc rot for certain products...

I think others would also appreciate an consolidated online reference list of confirmed modern-day zinc pest models instead of the current scattered postings that exist on this forum and others.

Brandy posted:

Maybe Lionel and MTH consider doing as you recommended in 3D then reproducing frames at a reasonable price......Just Sayin ! 

You would think that with the advances in 3D scanning/printing technology and as the relevent pricing drops that we would see Lionel, MTH, Atlas and some others more seriously looking into or applying 3D printing for adding to their replacement parts on products that are in or no longer in current production.  Once whatever initial replacement parts get depleted the company can produce a part on a when needed basis without the burden and cost of maintaining a varied SKU on-hand inventory.

Dave45681 posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the single stripe green one, and I decided to once again inspect all the trucks and side frames.  If there is any deterioration, I can't find it, I even took the side frames off and looked them over.  I suspect it was specific dates and batches of the trucks and sideframes that have the issue, not necessarily the color combinations.

But unless they had unfortunate luck and made a lot of extras with the batches that were defective, wouldn't that correlate pretty well to the decorative scheme?

Considering they don't make spare parts to keep around, it wouldn't seem likely that any would normally be left over to infect a later run after being assembled into the specific item they were manufactured for originally.

Weren't the color combinations each only offered once, or did they repeat some of the early ones later?

-Dave

The JLC GG-1's probably were manufactured in a number of color schemes in one run.

RoyBoy posted:
 

I wonder if it's possible for affected owners to co-operate on patterning an un-affected or similar set of frames. At least there would be a master stored somewhere which copies could be made from. It would probably have to be a hobby group to avoid any copying re-percussions I suppose. Just my $0.02 or less.

Notch 6 posted:

I've handled 15 to 20 JLC GG1's in the past five or so years. The only ones I recall seeing is the silver with the solid tuscan stripe. This has led me to believe that it was primarily that run that was affected. I'd like to hear if it was any other colors. 

Mine is green single stripe.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The JLC GG-1's probably were manufactured in a number of color schemes in one run.

True, but I left out the details I was trying to suggest, so I wasn't clear enough.  My bad.

I am sure I have the match ups wrong a bit, but they were offered in groups, IIRC.

It might have been green 5 Stripe along with tuscan single, and the penn central black one in the first run.  Then maybe the green single stripe, tuscan 5 stripe and silver one in the second run.  Something like that.  (and/or the later groups may have been less than 3 or even a single one offered in one of the catalogs)

Again, I probably have the match ups wrong (not digging up the catalogs just to check).  but the point being if there was a year in between run 1 and run 2, none of the trucks made for the first run likely were still sitting around the factory a year later for use on run 2.  So that is why I suggest there might be something to the color tracking the defect.  But I would agree it's likely that any different deco schemes from the same run (delivered nearly the same time) would likely be in the same boat regarding the chances of having the problem.

-Dave

look online for people that cast in aluminum and see if they can copy one of the frames that you need. They also make a hi temp silicone rubber kit that you can cast in pewter. Some of the guys that are retired that may have some time on their hands could probably do the pewter casting. The silicone is about $40 a container but you may be able to cast many side frames. Look on Youtube you can see a lot of videos on casting.

@bob2 even brass is susceptible to corrosion if it's exposed to ammonia fumes.  I'm not interested in starting a museum; if it lasts another 40-50 yrs I won't be around to worry about it.  But with the high prices of our trains, I feel strongly that there should be a handy reference list of affected modern-era trains, built from this community's knowledge.

Maybe Scott, Lionel, etc., should use plastic (horrors!)  After all, K-cups will exist in landfills for thousands of years 

Last edited by Ted S
Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

"However, bearing in mind that moisture is the activator, reducing it is going to help slow down, or even prevent the curse."

If moisture is the activator of the zinc rot, wouldn't completely painting a part prevent moisture from reaching the underlying metal?  I suppose that this would mean that the manufacturers would have to take the extra step of dipping parts in a primer or some other kind of paint undercoat.  

NH Joe

RoyBoy posted:
Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

RoyBoy posted:
Notch 6 posted:

I've handled 15 to 20 JLC GG1's in the past five or so years. The only ones I recall seeing is the silver with the solid tuscan stripe. This has led me to believe that it was primarily that run that was affected. I'd like to hear if it was any other colors. 

Mine is green single stripe.

Lionel did two maybe three runs of the JLC GG1 over 1 to 2 years..   My Tuscan 5 stripe is from the second run, the same run as the silver GG1 I believe.  Thankfully no problems yet with mine.  But,  knowing I have no use or tolerance for high priced crap production, the GG1 like the beautiful JLC Allegheny H8 I loved but sadly sold off that did suffer extensive zinc rot will be on the sell list shortly.

I can't think of a more frustrating and depressing moment for me, probably anyone who buys these things then when one suddenly finds irreparable zinc rot on a beautiful & expensive model. 

joe

 

 

Last edited by JC642
gunrunnerjohn posted:
RoyBoy posted:
Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

I agree completely with that. The problem is probably that they have not made another batch of them for several years. Google shows them for $169 at Trainworld, but that appears to be an old, long out of print ad.

It looks like your GG1 upgrade was six years ago.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

Last edited by RoyBoy

Some folks have cured this problem.  LA Die Casting has been making restaurant supplies out of die cast for over a half century that I know of.  Door handles on Fords are all die cast, and suffer incredible abuse.

I like good die cast trains - but now I am on the alert - how do you know the GG1 body won't blossom forth in short order?

My 700-series Lionel models are older than I am, and so far no blossoming.  Same with recent MTH.  

But your fix, unless Lionel steps up to the plate, is lost-wax brass repros.  It can be done with less than 1% shrinkage if you go to the right foundry.

Unfortunately, "zinc rot" is but one hazard of offshore (especially Communist country) sourcing.  It comes as I understand it from manufacturing workers who might not even understand the effects of their sloppy work, if they care.  Probably most have never HAD a hobby, except trying to feed and support their family while avoiding their government.  

In the case of zinc rot- I understand it happens when non-specified metals get poured in as fillers in the zinc manufacturing practice.  The resulting metal alloys are more subject to deterioration.

The importers (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.) are relatively small companies.  Where GM can afford to have on-site Quality Control (QC) people stationed IN China, not so with these smaller companies.  So- they have to rely on locals to provide QC.  Maybe there are not enough QC people provided by the manufacturer?  Maybe the Chinese QC people are also not properly motivated as they might be here in the USA?

Then (again as I understand it) the Chinese government owns the controlling share of all the tools of production- including of making the parts and assembling the product.  Those tools of production are not generally ever released to be removed from China, so the importer (Lionel, MTH etc.) is a captive customer.  They may have a $200,000 piece of tooling that makes maybe $ 20,000 a year of product, that they cannot send to a more reliable manufacturer anywhere, but in China.

Even worse, (again as I understand it) the Chinese will not supply parts since they are suspicious that their customer might start assembling in the USA, and competing with them.  So- parts are scarce to FIX these issues when they occur.

When a USA (or other Western) manufacturer contracts w/ companies in China, they get in bed with the Devil.  Not really the importers' fault- the root cause is OUR fault for demanding cheap goods.  

Maybe that's why Postwar??

Just my opinion, not expert by any means.  But an experienced business mind at work.  

Last edited by Mike Wyatt

"However, bearing in mind that moisture is the activator, reducing it is going to help slow down, or even prevent the curse."

Not quite correct. Moisture is an accelerant, or a catalyst. Lack of moisture will NOT prevent the degradation from occurring, but rather just slow it down. The culprit is the impurity level in the raw alloy, specifically lead. Too much lead and the time bomb starts ticking. There is no shut off switch.

Chris

LVHR

MAYBE they are expensive.  But a locomotive selling for $30 (about average) in 1950, would be in 2019 dollars:  

$ 314.66

 
Hmmmm about the price of a Lion Chief Plus today.  
The real question- how much might we be willing to pay for THAT LC+ IF it were made in the USA??  + 20%??  Plus 30%??  Really- we should not have to pay ANYTHING more for a locomotive or any other product simply and only because it is Made in the USA. 
 
So could Lionel or MTH or anyone make a product in the USA at a comparable price, and lessen the poor/erratic quality found in products made by Chinese contractors?  I think we could, but....
 
The secondary and maybe "deal breaker" issues are:
- the tooling is generally NOT going to come back, and would have to be replaced in the USA.  I understand that a set of tooling starts around $ 200K.  And, most of the tooling being used already (and residing in China) might be nowhere near worn out and needing replacement anyway.
- more on tooling: what would stop the Chinese from simply using that tooling to compete with the USA companies??  Nothing. 
- The Chinese would simply start using the tooling paid for by Lionel (and others) to make copy products to sell, and using government money, undercut the pricing by whatever it took.  They are not subject to our laws, and ignore international law.  And this train market is very limited, anyway (compared to, say telephones or I Pads.) 
 
-  probable Chinese Government support- It wouldn't take much Chinese government money to take all or almost all of the business, at, say -50% pricing.  But, no problem, if they needed -75% pricing the government could easily do that.  -80%?  -90%?  No problem, whatever it takes.
 
As I said before: "... get in bed with the Devil", and you are vulnerable.
 
Last edited by Mike Wyatt

It's quite possible that trains could become even cheaper in the future and replacement parts could be easier to make. With the advent of 3D printing we may be past tooling that only makes one item. Items could be made on demand. The next 20 years could be very interesting in manufacturing.

But that doesn't really help anyone now.

Opened my Green/Solid Stripe JLC GG1 as I'm checking everything getting packed for a home move, and found zinc rot.  Frames still hold together, though are bowed outward.  The backs of the frames swelled to the point where they touch and bind.  My solution so far is to carefully dremel-sand off paint from the inside portions of each frame to reveal raw metal then cover these areas with epoxy.  Won't keep outside portions from flaking off, but may keep the frames generally intact.  

Sent an email off to Lionel; naturally have not received any response whatsoever.

Local model RR store warned me, too, to check my 21" Lionel passenger cars.  Apparently the trucks on many of these as well as the zinc rectangular piece under the cars are potentially affected.  

Robert D posted:

Opened my Green/Solid Stripe JLC GG1 as I'm checking everything getting packed for a home move, and found zinc rot.  Frames still hold together, though are bowed outward.  The backs of the frames swelled to the point where they touch and bind.  My solution so far is to carefully dremel-sand off paint from the inside portions of each frame to reveal raw metal then cover these areas with epoxy.  Won't keep outside portions from flaking off, but may keep the frames generally intact.  

Sent an email off to Lionel; naturally have not received any response whatsoever.

Local model RR store warned me, too, to check my 21" Lionel passenger cars.  Apparently the trucks on many of these as well as the zinc rectangular piece under the cars are potentially affected.  

And when you do receive a reply from Lionel, they'll tell you there are no replacement parts available.  *Ask me how I know*.   Further, by all indications, there are absolutely NO replacement power truck side frames anywhere on this planet and there are no plans to produce any in the foreseeable future.  So, if you have a GG-1 with "Zinc Pest" eating away at your "Powered Truck Side Frame with Pilot", it seems that you are just plain out of luck.   BTW, the Lionel part number is: 610-8354-035.  *I know because I have the same problem with my JLC GG-1* 

Chief Bob (Retired)

Thanks Chief Bob.  I figured it was futile to contact Lionel, but at least I know I'm not a lonely voice out in the wilderness on this one.  One would think a company that MSRP's these trains at $1000 +/- might engage in some customer service to assure we keep coming back for more product.  Given the problems I've discovered in the collection as I prepare for the move, more zinc rot in some box cars for example, I'm going to refocus on my N-scale model railroading and stop buying O-gauge.  I'll likely trade or sell more of my O-gauge to thin it out for the home move than I originally planned to.  Doing so will save space and heartache when in a couple years I open up a box to find disintegrated crumbled parts. 

That JLC GG-1 was a beauty - it was the reason I picked up the Broadway Limited cars to run behind it.  So if it ends up in the dumpster, why keep the 21" cars to go with it?  

Theo posted:

To GRJ: if this becomes a reality, you can put me down for several sets as I have 3 of these GG1's. No zinc rot yet that I am aware of but would like to be prepared.

Please count me in as well. I am in the same boat (no rot - yet - on my JLC Tuscan) and would like to be on the safe side in terms of replacement parts.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

FYI, we are in the early phases of exploring the options of casting some of these.  No word yet if it's practical, but that appears to be the only way they'll ever be available again.

John,

Your track record of producing products that are relevant to the hobby is impeccable.   That being said, please consider this an order for TWO JLC GG-1 powered truck side frames with pilot if your plans make it to fruition.   Good luck and thank you!   

 Chief Bob (Retired)

I am most likely repeating myself.

There are lots of investment casting businesses in the US.  Even your dentist does it.  Take a reasonably good set of sideframes and make a non-shrinking mold.  Then make waxes and have new sideframes in lifetime brass.

Jay C is a participant on the 2-rail side, and is an expert in this area - all you need is a complete set of relatively undamaged sideframes and some postage - and a reasonable pile of $ for the work.  Ask him nicely.

Jay helped me with the nose of my Erie-built Diesel, and it turned out beautifully.

Lionel could do this for you - for a price.  Maybe they could split the cost?

This is not rocket science - it is a technique thousands of years old.  Lionel wouldn't have to lift a finger - except for packing up a set for reproduction.

There are cheaper ways - pewter, or even plastic.  But brass is elegant, and does not have zinc pest.

 

 

By the by - I had zinc pest in some of my childhood models, stored in a box for 50 years.  They were ancient Varney HO box cars, and kind of cute.  So I took a die cast underframe, straightened it, and sent it to my friend Bob Stevenson, of Stevenson Preservation Lines.  He did just what I suggested for you - he made a mold and cast me some replacements.  

The photo below is one of the rejects - the floor is really thin, and you can see the metal did not flow.  Still, it is a thing of great beauty, replacing a twisted and crumbling die cast part.  I re-equipped half my fleet with these.  I would not hesitate to do the same with GG1 trucks, although I suspect Lionel now would be motivated to do it . . .DSC02742

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Short of finding or having a good piece for someone to cast a replacement replica. I have found that filling the cracks with super thin CA seems to stabilize these poor castings fairly well.  CA is hygroscopic, it seeks out and binds with water molecules this helps to shut the electrolysis down. Not a perfect solution but one for the moment.          j

There are replacements for hi fi Sansui receiver (1976) ball socket AM antenna mounts as the original ones break easily.  They are molded from plastic and of a simple design and have sold for over 15 years for $12.  Making a mold for the Lionel / Kline GG1 side frames would be much more difficult to make but is the ultimate solution that will never happen.

I have just inspected my K-line GG1 bought when first issued in 2002.  It developed a warped side frame after a few years and I was able to buy one from Lionel that fit perfectly at the time.  K-line must have copied Lionel very well.  The inspection showed two side frames straight and in good shape.  The other two side frames show some minor warping, at least 1/32 inch or maybe more.  These side frames anchor the needle bearings of the wheel axles and are critical to the operation of the lead and following trucks.

If or when my side frames warp enough or crumble and fail and none are available, I would attempt to make one or two.  I would use 3/4 or 1 inch aluminum angle and cut to replace the side frame.  An all plastic side frame probably would not be strong enough to hold the wheel bearing.   I would rig up a hole or use the bearing part of the old side frame and JB weld to hold the wheel bearings in.  Then I would find a piece of 1/8 inch plastic sheet and make a cover for the outside of the side frame.  I would then use a Dremel Moto tool and small cutting bits to attempt to carve out some plastic to look similar to the original side frame and paint it semi gloss black. 

From a small distance the new side frames will not be noticed by most especially if two new ones were on one side.  I am an operator and would accept this type of fix and know many other would not.  But at least I would be able to still run my GG1.

Charlie

Last edited by Choo Choo Charlie

I'd buy replacements if offered for the JLC GG1.  Some small bits are snapping off as I sand and prep the existing frames for epoxy application; fortunately the frame I'm currently working on is holding together, though the screw mounts were iffy.  Hopefully the second frame too will hold together, but it exhibits more severe cracking at the mount points than the first one I removed.

NEVER say NEVER. There is a way.

Laser sintered metal products. 

Scan a good part into math data

Digitize it 

Laser cut metal parts are made in process that stacks powder metal and cuts it to a fraction of a millimeter for products such as knee cap replacement surgery, gears, clutches, automotive castings, brackets, etc...

Cost is coming down rapidly... 5 grand set up and about 100.00 a piece.

Key is to get all the orders you can and set up and run them...

BlushingElectricFrilledlizard-small

 

 

 

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bob2 posted:

I am most likely repeating myself.

There are lots of investment casting businesses in the US.  Even your dentist does it.  Take a reasonably good set of sideframes and make a non-shrinking mold.  Then make waxes and have new sideframes in lifetime brass.

Jay C is a participant on the 2-rail side, and is an expert in this area - all you need is a complete set of relatively undamaged sideframes and some postage - and a reasonable pile of $ for the work.  Ask him nicely.

My concern is how big a pile of money is required, and what the part cost ends up being.  If they're $200/ea, it's pointless to proceed.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

My concern is how big a pile of money is required, and what the part cost ends up being.  If they're $200/ea, it's pointless to proceed.

I recently paid $100 each for four side frames from a forum member to put on my two JLC GG1's.  It seemed to beat the alternative of being stuck with two $400 paperweights that would really only be good for the trash can otherwise.  I'd gladly pay the same for another two sets of new ones to ensure that the issue won't come back again.  I know I can't speak for everybody, but there is a certain level of supply and demand pricing with these.

Why don't they cast in other materials like pewter? I see cups from years ago made of this and they don't look like what we see with this rot plague. I am surprised a hobbyist doesn't cast these parts at home or plastic. Would Lionel go after people for selling home made trucks because they wont be making a dime? 

I don’t own one of these GG1 models, but I can surely relate to the frustration. Just a suggestion, and I don’t know if this would even fly or not. Maybe try contacting North West Shortline and see if they might be interested in casting these parts. This is their field of expertise. Perhaps if the owners of these models could figure out to how to get together as a group, the project could become reality. The new owners of NWSL are super nice, and they seem very eager to get orders going in a prompt and efficient manner.....and they actually answer the phone!....might be worth a call at least....what’s the worst they can say?..no?.................Pat

I recently paid $100 each for four side frames from a forum member to put on my two JLC GG1's. It seemed to beat the alternative of being stuck with two $400 paperweights that would really only be good for the trash can otherwise. I'd gladly pay the same for another two sets of new ones to ensure that the issue won't come back again. 

I believe a brass repro sideframe would be closer to $60 in quantities of one.  I may be a bit dated on price, but half the expense is making the mold.  Once that is made, the castings are relatively easy.

Assuming for a minute that there are only two main sideframe variants (a right and a left) you ought to be able to get the four main castings for around $200.  Less if several of you went in together.

As far as I know, the new NWSL could only do a softer plastic casting.  The original NWSL had graduated to a glass-filled plastic.  I would not cheapen a good model locomotive with either plastic or pewter.

Give Lionel another six months, then step up and protect your investment.  Again, this is easily done in the USA.  There are lots of competent foundries that do this stuff.

I also have great empathy for all those who are affected, and agree with many comments on this thread.

Someday I believe 3D printing will resolve most issues like this.  The sideframes are decorative and not structural, right?  So they could even be made out of plastic (gasp!)  If Harry Henning is making new replacement parts for standard gauge trains that are 100 years old, I'm pretty sure that someone will step up and make replacement parts for expensive trains that are 10 years old.

GRJ photo shows the truck frames in question, item #55.  As he said they are identical.  I changed out four of them on my green solid stripe and silver GG1.  My other four JLC GG1s did not exhibit zinc rot.

Here are pictures of the truck frame that is susceptible to zinc rot.  I removed other components that attach to the frame and as far as I know those components are OK all the way around.

The item in the photos, while highly detailed, would be the only thing necessary to be replaced.  Notice the obvious bow in the top side, top photo.

DSC04454DSC04455DSC04456

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gunrunnerjohn posted:
Strummer posted:

Pat

I agree with everything you said about NWSL...but the owner is closing up shop, so I'd guess that's not an option at this time...

Mark in Oregon

Bummer, I hears about this several months ago, sadly it seems to be true: Model Railroading > NorthWest Short Line NWSL closing

My mistake fellas, I had a senior moment...I was thinking of Precision Scale, not NWSL.....perhaps they might can help....they’re the ones under new ownership...the new owners seem eager to help their customers........I totally made a mistake.......don’t get old....it sucks!...........Pat

How about a name of a couple of these competent foundries? Since you're obviously more well versed in this topic than most of us, care to take on this project?

Sure.  Valley Brass in California, and Stevenson Preservation Models.  Also probably Precision Scale and maybe Weisman, in Cynthiana.

And sure - I would take on the project.  I would need a left and a right.  Bowed is ok, and maybe even good, because the swelling would offset the shrink.  The vulcanizing process may explode the castings, so don't expect to get them back.  They would have to be in one piece, of course - not broken or falling apart.

I might need a few bucks for shipping, both to and from the foundry, and back to the owner if the price is too high.  I am betting that for, say, ten sets the cost will be way, way under the $100 each you guys are paying for zamac that may or may not explode.  I will not be involved in any profit-making scheme, but if any of you are entrepreneurs, seems like this is an opportunity.  How many do you suppose would be needed?  Do you think Lionel would be interesed in a quantity buy?

Oh, and remember, even though lost wax is quite good, a little light machining will probably be needed.

Maybe if you could cast in different types of metals such as aluminum or pewter would be so much better than what the original model was made with. I think there would be a buying of at least a hundred pairs of these frames. If people out there would see how they came I believe they would sell out quick. On OGR here you would find other models that you could reproduce a special part of. The GG1 is loved by many people and there are hundreds of these defective models out there. Some of these GG'1 may have been packed for years and people don't know until they go through there items to see. If you have this online like other vendors have you would see the items leave your hands. I have a Lionel GG1 packed and really don't want to see if I have the same problem as everyone else. I have about 15 MTH GG1's on the shelf that are good with no problems. If these were about $100 to $150 I would buy a set to put with the model just in case. I know the old Bachmann HO Metroliners had the same zink problem too. I cast a good frame with plastic and it worked great, just had to add a little extra weight.

Bob2,

This particular part for the JLC GG-1 is unlike the "Traditional" GG-1 which, I believe, has two separate side frames which attach on either side with machine screws.  The JLC GG-1 side frame is actually a 1 piece frame (as seen in the previous post) with the pilot attached.  Unfortunately, the Lionel WEB site is down because of them moving, but the correct part number is: 610-8354-035 if you care to check when they are up and running again.  I would be more than willing to go $100.00 each and I would be in for 2 for sure.  I currently have one that I purchased form S&W Parts Supply which might be used as a pattern.  Hit my email and we can discuss the possible options regarding production of new frames.

Chief Bob (Retired)

That large a frame will be more than $100.  Probably way more.  It may be time to re-think this.  House of Duddy made the Ed Alexander GG1 for years, and in its final iteration it used Bill Wolfer's excellent trucks.  The patterns and molds still exist.  

It is sprung, with axles supported by the journal boxes.  It is possible it could be adapted to the Lionel scheme.

Best I can do is post photos of that frame and ask around.  Give me a day or two.  If Lionel steps up, they could conceivably go that route.  Better to have LA Die Casting make a production run out of good zamac.

I agree but the fact of the matter is that the local manufacturer can knowingly or otherwise pass items off that will fail(zincpest) due to the nature and timeframe involved with process. I’ve seen this in all manner of products that rely on zinc alloy castings, every country and product type does not matter.  It is very unfortunate. If you do some studying of old info the new jersy zinc co was instrumental in the 1930’s by being one of the companies that sheparded standards and industry specifications very much due to the failures of the other early companies in the 20’s. From that point things improved in the US. Not to say issues never occured but by then the causes were understood and better practice processes were documented and available. Other products from Marklin, Riverossi  Mantua and many orhers were affected. I’ve seen this in slotcars matchbox, stereo equipment, automotive parts like mirror castings, sewing machine parts, mixer parts anything you canthink of.

 

But even if the new owner is willing to do a production run, you would be risking the same problems in the other die cast parts.  Wouldn't the body be from the same metal source?

So you have my sympathy - unless Lionel steps up, you will probably be left with swollen zamac all the way around.

The solution is to capture a Sunset GG1.  I can tell you they are spectacular!

And now a question:  does MTH have these problems with the Milwaukee Bi-Polar?  I am collecting parts for a 2-railing project, and would not be happy if I drop a couple bills on exploding side frames.

bob2 posted:

But even if the new owner is willing to do a production run, you would be risking the same problems in the other die cast parts.  Wouldn't the body be from the same metal source?

Bob, Lionel has made tens of thousands of locomotives before and since the JLC GG-1, and they haven't all had issues with the diecast.  Both Lionel and MTH have had runs of diecast with zinc rot.  While I consider that pretty inexcusable, there's really not much we can do about it.  If mine were one that was affected, I'd be perfectly happy with a set of sideframes from Lionel if they were free or cheap.

I hope Lionel looks into this issue, and comes up with a solution soon.  I just bought a JLC silver GG-1 single stripe online, and from the pics that the seller sent to me, one truck looks to be very straight while the other one is slightly, outwardly distorted near two of the three axles.  Hopefully, all will arrive intact, and the GG-1 runs well for me, but I am sure I will eventually need at least one replacement full side frame.

What operational issues are occurring from the GG-1s that show side frame bowing?  derailing on O-72 curves?

bob2 posted:

But even if the new owner is willing to do a production run, you would be risking the same problems in the other die cast parts.  Wouldn't the body be from the same metal source?

So you have my sympathy - unless Lionel steps up, you will probably be left with swollen zamac all the way around.

The solution is to capture a Sunset GG1.  I can tell you they are spectacular!

And now a question:  does MTH have these problems with the Milwaukee Bi-Polar?  I am collecting parts for a 2-railing project, and would not be happy if I drop a couple bills on exploding side frames.

Bob2, it is a batch to batch problem at the least.  Also possible the Chinese mfrs use multiple local casting suppliers and one could make junk and the others not.  If the batch or melt  is contaminated, then all the parts cast from that batch will be affected but that is usually one mold and one run of a specific part.  If they do not realize the problem via quality checks of the melt(batch) at that time, they will not clean the equipment and the next may also be contaminated and so forth.  This is why you see all the side frames from one run of a loco affected but not the shell or other diecast parts in many cases.  A bad part  on a finished loco will not "infect" a good part because it has to do with the contaminant atoms in the bad parts molecular structure as cast.  One of (but not the only) big sources is lead as it has a very very low solubility in certain zinc alloys.

for fun, I've posted this before, the Author's name is on the paper, but for those interested it may help you understand what is taking place. The diagram and case study are from a different article but illustrate the solubility limits with respect to the separate article.  The tender is just an MTH one I saw on online that clearly has the pest so it's not just a high end engine problem.  There is a lot of history to this manufacturing challenge.

2018-02-14 21-02-47_Metal Failures_ Mechanisms, Analysis, Prevention - Arthur J. McEvily, Jirapong K2018-02-14 21-03-15_Metal Failures_ Mechanisms, Analysis, Prevention - Arthur J. McEvily, Jirapong K-1mth railking zinc pest tender

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gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dennis, funny you should post this picture.

mth railking zinc pest tender

I saw this exact issue with an MTH RK PRR locomotive, the tender had developed a severe bow in the top, the whole structure just sagged.  To their credit, even though it was over 10 years old, MTH replaced the shell.

I suspect they were able to do so either because it was a common shell part with other locos, or they had made a more recent version etc.  I imagine the Railking products are a higher volume than Premier or the Lionel GG1 we started with.  The point is it is excellent that they manned up in that case, but unfortunately, manning up may not be possible for all items given production run size  etc.  Dosen't make it right but probably more reality.  This gotten me off running down a rabbit hole researching zinc allow processes etc, lol, to say the least it is an interesting subject to me....

Tony D. posted:

I hope Lionel looks into this issue, and comes up with a solution soon.  I just bought a JLC silver GG-1 single stripe online, and from the pics that the seller sent to me, one truck looks to be very straight while the other one is slightly, outwardly distorted near two of the three axles.  Hopefully, all will arrive intact, and the GG-1 runs well for me, but I am sure I will eventually need at least one replacement full side frame.

What operational issues are occurring from the GG-1s that show side frame bowing?  derailing on O-72 curves?

In my case, the side frames swelled so it was binding on the drive wheels and would not run.  Trying to do anything with side frames - sanding to remove the bind, only resulted in the side frame disintegrating. Without the side frames, you can still run the GG1, but it can't pull any cars.  The front and rear trucks with the couplers, attach to the side frames. 

bob2 posted:

Here are a couple photos of the Wolfer/duddy castings.  These need slack adjusters, and have earlier Alexander lead trucks, but you get the idea.  Ed Duddy had them jig-soldered.imageimage

Bob, are these parts somewhat available? ....if so, first glance looks like they could show promise as a repair part for the Lionels. Looks as if some trimming, and a sheet metal bracket could be fashioned to mount this frame, then figure out how to adapt and mount the front and rear truck assembly....this would certainly yield a bulletproof repair....and help the folks that are stuck in a rut with no parts availability......add on do-dads such as the slacks and what not would just enhance the model even further......I’m not excusing the mfr.....but if these can help some folks, sure be a nice repair....I’d be willing to to take a whack at one if these were accessible........thanks for showing these! ........Pat

That’s why I’m saying the trucks you pictured Bob show some hope! ..some of these  cats paid through the nose for these models ......they have nothing but a 1700 dollar paper weight.......unless Lionel steps up to the plate, those frames you pictured are like a ray of hope!....if those frames can be had, and someone is willing to send me their dilapidated model, I’d do the first one pro bono to see project feasibility....I have a full machine shop at my disposal, but no foundry equipment.....if I had the castings, I know I could manufacture nice looking brackets and hardware to mount these to the Lionel’s and have a robust sturdy repair.....I don’t own one these models, but I’d be willing to do the repairs.....I just need one pair of those duddy castings, and someone’s warped out Lionel.......we can make this happen.....please note everyone....I’m not excusing Lionel....Id just like to see these beauties fixed....better than the big L ever could imagine!.....Pat

harmonyards posted:

That’s why I’m saying the trucks you pictured Bob show some hope! ..some of these  cats paid through the nose for these models ......they have nothing but a 1700 dollar paper weight....................

I think you might be mixing the original JLC ones that may have this problem to the later Vision Line ones (which I don't believe anyone has chimed in saying one of those has this problem yet).

The original JLCs were only ~$900 paper weights, unless someone paid a lot of money to buy a Penn Central one that was very highly sought after once it became known how few were made due to comparably low pre-orders vs. the other Pennsy models of that era.

Still not excusable for this not to be repairable, but not quite a $1700 paperweight.

-Dave

Admit it fellows Lionel will do nothing to fix the zinc rot so it will be up to you fix it. How it will be done is up to debate but unless somebody is willing to cover the cost of new side frames, of course a group effort would be cheaper if you could buy a good engine or if somebody would donate a good engine take the side frames off and have them recast by a shop if at all possible and if there is a shop in the U.S. who could do it. 

I would also send Lionel notes of displeasure instead of posting here. But don't expect any help from Lionel.

IMO I don't think this will ever be resolved to everybody's satisfaction. If you have a good one have fun with it. 

Dave

Last edited by david1

Well, the molds and masters exist.  There are two different lengths, so you will need to do some measuring.  Checking on pricing now - 

just replacing the sideframes - as with the nice Williams fix above - is also an option - Alexander did those, too, and that could be a less expensive solution.

I would probably attempt it, but I would have to own the finished project - there is just too much labor involved to do it as a business.  I think I already have four bronze and one aluminum GG1s.

Dave, FWIW, if Lionel does not have the JLC GG1 truck frame dies in there hands, there is nothing they can do.  We do not know the limits of their business agreements with the regional manufacture, now or when these were made.....

Now I understand we do not know the answer to that question, do they or don't they, AND that does not absolve them from ownership...but it may be reality.

Dennis Holler posted:

Dave, FWIW, if Lionel does not have the JLC GG1 truck frame dies in there hands, there is nothing they can do.  We do not know the limits of their business agreements with the regional manufacture, now or when these were made.....

Now I understand we do not know the answer to that question, do they or don't they, AND that does not absolve them from ownership...but it may be reality.

We are in full agreement.  I'm not suggesting they are sitting on a solution and not sharing, they very well may not have access to whatever tooling would be required.  We will never know.

All driven by a very common factor that drives everything relating to the manufacturing, which I shall not delve into here so as to keep the thread on topic.  But we all know what it is.

-Dave

I’m on the side of let’s find a solution, I’m not looking at this point for the finger pointing.....unfortunately, we all know it gets nowhere.....fast.....I’d be interested to learn more about two things....Bob’s looking into the new castings, and the other fella used some Williams parts (great job by the way) ....I’d like to learn more about the Willams parts as potential repair parts, and someone kindly get Bob the measurements he needs to see if his parts are feasible....let’s learn some more about possible repair paths, and come up with a solution.........Pat

harmonyards posted:

I’m on the side of let’s find a solution, I’m not looking at this point for the finger pointing.....unfortunately, we all know it gets nowhere.....fast.....I’d be interested to learn more about two things....Bob’s looking into the new castings, and the other fella used some Williams parts (great job by the way) ....I’d like to learn more about the Willams parts as potential repair parts, and someone kindly get Bob the measurements he needs to see if his parts are feasible....let’s learn some more about possible repair paths, and come up with a solution.........Pat

A most reasonable post, I think... 

Mark in Oregon

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Gosh, I have the same one, but so far the frame seems solid as a rock.  I sure hope it doesn't start rotting away, that would be a serious bummer!

That's the one I have as well.  I only noticed the issue when my silver one arrived with the truck frames broken into several pieces due to the rot.  It had been sitting on a shelf looking pretty until flipped over and the problem was obvious around the screw holes.

The good thing about this forum is, there are members willing and able to help find a solution to the unfortunate issues that come up from time to time.

The bad part, there are way too many just wanting to complain and offer nothing in the way of helpful value.   

Just MHO

 

I also would be interested in receiving more information on how the repair made with Williams parts was accomplished and the possibility of creating new castings.

 

 

NYC 428 posted:

The good thing about this forum is, there are members willing and able to help find a solution to the unfortunate issues that come up from time to time.

The bad part, there are way too many just wanting to complain and offer nothing in the way of helpful value.   

Just MHO

 

I also would be interested in receiving more information on how the repair made with Williams parts was accomplished and the possibility of creating new castings.

 

 

Agreed, maybe this thread could actually be informative .....I think we have a low whining rate!....rare these days.....Pat

rex desilets posted:
Lionel Parts posted:

I repaired my single stripe green scale GG1 by using Williams scale GG1 trucks. IMG_20181001_142935614IMG_20190401_085133582IMG_20190401_085236065_HDRIMG_20190401_085639447

A little more info on what you did would be appreciated.

I wonder if one could use sideframes from the Williams scale version...I have one that I'd be happy to sacrifice.

This fix will NOT work on the JLC GG-1.   The part for the JLC GG-1 is called "Powered Truck Side Frame with Pilot" Part Number 610-8354-035 and is completely different from the Williams GG-1 Truck Side Frame.   Here is exactly what the Powered Truck Side Frame with Pilot looks like courtesy of Lionel and Gun Runner John.

mceclip0

Chief Bob (Retired)

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gunrunnerjohn posted:

That's funny Doug.  Surely you jest.   FWIW, I personally contacted them several months ago and they said they didn't have them, that didn't surprise me.

I have a couple of friends with bad ones, so I'm trying to help them out.

John, I didn't see where anyone had mentioned it and thought I'd throw it out there.I know a lot of members had written them off because of lack of communication from the previous owners.

 

  Doug

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Okay.  From the photo above credited to Lionel and gunrunner, it appears the Wolfer/Duddy castings are identical - both scaled from the real thing.  There is hope - still looking at price.  Lionel surely has the assets to do a volume run of these, and lots of foundries are capable here in the USA.

Once we get an idea of price, if someone wants to spring for shipping both ways, I will happily look at a complete power truck to ensure dimensional compatibility.  Who knows - maybe Lionel sent a Wolfer frame to be copied?

Last edited by bob2
trnluvr posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

That's funny Doug.  Surely you jest.   FWIW, I personally contacted them several months ago and they said they didn't have them, that didn't surprise me.

I have a couple of friends with bad ones, so I'm trying to help them out.

John, I didn't see where anyone had mentioned it and thought I'd throw it out there.I know a lot of members had written them off because of lack of communication from the previous owners.
   Doug

It was a good thought, and yes, I did get an answer pretty quickly, obviously the new owners are more responsive.

pingal70 posted:

I have quite  few. Class Actionable?

Really?  Come on... what is the stated Lionel Warranty?  Probably a year at most and for the most part this stuff takes a bit of time to happen...I'm not surprised the question has come up, but it's a bit of a stretch in my opinion.  These GG1's were made what 10 plus years ago??

Dennis Holler posted:
pingal70 posted:

I have quite  few. Class Actionable?

Really?  Come on... what is the stated Lionel Warranty?  Probably a year at most and for the most part this stuff takes a bit of time to happen...I'm not surprised the question has come up, but it's a bit of a stretch in my opinion.  These GG1's were made what 10 plus years ago??

Dennis, I’m surprised no one has brought up the Lemon Law yet!....GEEEEZ LOUISE....🤫...........Pat

Jdaddy - always interested in foundries that do small sand cast stuff.  I currently have E7B sides at an aluminum foundry in Pennsylvania, and once they are done I will convert the patterns to A units in hopes that another Pa. foundry will do brass/bronze for me.  Last job took over a year, but I am deliriously happy.

For the rest, the owner of the GG1 truck masters is also a backyard foundry, and does stunningly good work.  Awaiting his price estimate.  The problem is, these beauties have separate journal boxes and slack adjusters.  More pieces= more expense, both at the foundry and at assembly.

And here in Calif we have a lost wax foundry ready, willing, and able.  Sadly, they do not do sand, but you cannot have everything.

 

I post this photo too much, I guess.  I am mostly a Southern Pacific steam modeler, but have symptoms of SPF - I think I have five GG1s, and need no more, ever.  But when one of these seriously damaged Lionel things hits the Bay, I may capture it and use my spare brass frames.  Lionel has been doing what I consider top-notch scale stuff lately, including the fantastic PA, the FEF, and the 4-12-2.  The compromises for containing all that electronic stuff do not seem to seriously affect the accuracy of these models.

Enough of that - here is the photo.  Two sand-cast bronze GGs, a bronze cast E7, and an aluminum Shark.  All from the blacksmith era of O Scale, which is almost where I come from!PRR Composite

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bob2 posted:

I post this photo too much, I guess.  I am mostly a Southern Pacific steam modeler, but have symptoms of SPF - I think I have five GG1s, and need no more, ever.  But when one of these seriously damaged Lionel things hits the Bay, I may capture it and use my spare brass frames.  Lionel has been doing what I consider top-notch scale stuff lately, including the fantastic PA, the FEF, and the 4-12-2.  The compromises for containing all that electronic stuff do not seem to seriously affect the accuracy of these models.

Enough of that - here is the photo.  Two sand-cast bronze GGs, a bronze cast E7, and an aluminum Shark.  All from the blacksmith era of O Scale, which is almost where I come from!PRR Composite

...never!... 

Mark in Oregon

My used JLC single stripe 4866 showed up with one truck's side frames in decent shape (straight and intact), but the other is slightly bowing with two of its smaller details cracked off and needing to be glued back on.  Finding better replacements will eventually become a necessity for me, too.

Pat(HarmondYards), My JLC GG-1' s side frames are crumbled in pieces so I will send it to you in hopes that Bob2 can either see if the manufacturer of the Wolfer/Duddy castings has a set of the old brass side frames and let you work your magic at modifying them and/or get them to cast a new batch. I will certainly contribute to a set or two of the brass frames as it sounds like many others with this unfortunate issue will too.  Would be nice to avoid a $600 paper weight.....

I experimented with this zinc rot a few years ago with HO scale Metroliner cars that had the frames bowed. I got a piece of heavy steal and put underneath. I then got a torch and without melting the metal the bowed metal dropped to the metal flat stock. There was no distortion of the frame maybe I got lucky. What I am thinking is some of the parts that are bowed, maybe they could attempt this project and see the outcome. It may not work but if you have a bad one that really cant be used why not try it.

shurlock1 posted:

I experimented with this zinc rot a few years ago with HO scale Metroliner cars that had the frames bowed. I got a piece of heavy steal and put underneath. I then got a torch and without melting the metal the bowed metal dropped to the metal flat stock. There was no distortion of the frame maybe I got lucky. What I am thinking is some of the parts that are bowed, maybe they could attempt this project and see the outcome. It may not work but if you have a bad one that really cant be used why not try it.

Your case may have resulted in success for that particular instance......however, as in the case with the frames that have already crumbled apart, there isn’t a glue, or a remedy to repair the existing frames....once the process of desegregation starts, it won’t stop until it all returns to Mother Earth.....however Shurlock1 ....I do applaud your efforts for a solution......I think our best bet at the moment is to raise enough voices to stir up these Wolfer/Duddy castings and have a nice solid brass repair part that will for sure make longevity a mute issue.....if the measurements work out, I’m confident with my machine shop I can fabricate the necessary brackets to make these a bolt in swap....obviously, these brass castings will require machining to make work, but these show the best promise.....I’m all in....Chris has already contacted me in regards to his beautiful GG1(that’s now a mess) so all we need now is some parts.......Pat

Sorry - I missed the renewed activity here.  I think we need the dimension from the articulating pin to the pilot beam.  There were apparently two lengths.

Bob has had some work done on his shoulder, and may be a bit slow in the foundry - but if you can get some idea of that dimension, and an estimate of the quantity, maybe we can get this project rolling.

On the Meadville foundry - I think they were the ones who did my sand cast Erie-built sides, and all I can say is - best sand castings I have ever seen!  I do not know if they do investment castings.

Bob has his own foundry.  I guess if you know what you are doing it is easy.

Not sure this is allowed - apologies in advance:

http://stevensonpreservationlines.com

bob2 posted:

Sorry - I missed the renewed activity here.  I think we need the dimension from the articulating pin to the pilot beam.  There were apparently two lengths.

Bob has had some work done on his shoulder, and may be a bit slow in the foundry - but if you can get some idea of that dimension, and an estimate of the quantity, maybe we can get this project rolling.

On the Meadville foundry - I think they were the ones who did my sand cast Erie-built sides, and all I can say is - best sand castings I have ever seen!  I do not know if they do investment castings.

Bob has his own foundry.  I guess if you know what you are doing it is easy.

Not sure this is allowed - apologies in advance:

http://stevensonpreservationlines.com

Thanks for all the input Bob! Well folks, there we have it....let’s feed Bob2 the inputs he needs and kick this into gear.....I don’t own one of these models, so we’re relying on y’all to get these measurements and info needed.....thanks again Bob!.......Pat

I lost count.  A "set" is enough to completely replace the main frames, right?  A "shipset"?

Yes, measure the wheelbase.  I will get the brass wheelbase in a minute - it is the exact 1/4" scale dimension from RR blueprints,so it should match Lionel.

These are big castings, and require assembly. Journal boxes and slack adjusters are separate. Not yet sure on the price, but it sounds like ten locomotives worth?

bob2 posted:

I lost count.  A "set" is enough to completely replace the main frames, right?  A "shipset"?

Yes, measure the wheelbase.  I will get the brass wheelbase in a minute - it is the exact 1/4" scale dimension from RR blueprints,so it should match Lionel.

These are big castings, and require assembly. Journal boxes and slack adjusters are separate. Not yet sure on the price, but it sounds like ten locomotives worth?

I’d say let’s keep it simple as far as the head count, .....if a “shipset” fixes one locomotive, then so be it...then let’s count them as shipsets....I count at least 15 shipsets as of right now....I’m sure there will be more.....we really need somebody to take the measurements to determine project feasibility......can some one bust out a ruler and maybe a caliper and post up some pics for Bob to see.....or if you email them to him, let us know....this could become reality.....still some unknowns....but it’s sure gaining traction!.....thanks again Bob!........Pat

Guys, lets not get too far ahead of ourselves here.  I replaced all four affected frames on two of my six JLC GG1's.  Not everything pictured as item #55 on GRJ's photo needs to be replaced/replicated.  Granted, the Lionel supplied replacement part includes everything but the coupler, but not everything needs replacing in this instance.  That would be a lot of unnecessary and expensive work.DSC04502

The good parts, easily removable, are on the left side of the photo.  They are screwed, tabbed, or slid on.  They do not need to be replaced/replicated.

The main frame assembly, on the right, to the best of my knowledge, is the only part subject to 'zinc pest' crumbling.   There are two per GG1, they are the same part.  It is this part that needs to be replaced.

If this is not clear, or if you need more information, please contact me.

Side view.

DSC04456

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Last edited by Johnsgg1

Great observation, and point well taken....problem being, getting somebody to tool up just for that one part of the problematic frame might be a whole new daunting task in itself......don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see just the affected frame section be produced.......but again could be a challenge to get all of this together for a batch....if the Wolfer/Duddy castings can be made in a somewhat reasonable realm, and the measurements work out, the tooling already exists according to Bob2 .....but certainly more avenues can be explored by all means.........Pat

Been off thread for a while, just saw this about the G's.

I have all of the JLC GG1s and am planning on opening all of them to check the frames, my Weaver troop Sleepers were fine, Atlas Erie - Build knuckles rotted.

This all makes me want to go back to strictly postwar.

I'm sure we're not close to firm orders for new frames yet, but I'll have to get back to this after I get'm out and running (hopefully).

Sam

 

Well, there is going to be custom work involved in addition to simply soldering the Wolfer castings.  Once you pass maybe 20 shipsets,  it starts to look economical to do brass castings that exactly replace the Lionel part.

Surely someone can part with a bowed casting for me to take a look at?  One that is crumbling won't help much.

Copying the Lionel casting involves shrinkage, unless special mold material is used.  But that is a possibility.

It really is time for Lionel to step up - there has to be a lot more than 20 of these in trouble.  If the holder of the dies is unwilling to shoot some replacements, Lionel should commission a good pattern maker here in the states.  Obviously, the 2-rail community knows how to do this stuff.  How else could Wolfer have been able to do such accurate pieces?

I have made patterns, but I am not good at it.

Update!

First, this thread was on page four this morning!  I need a way to find it without looking through four pages - maybe we could move it to 3-rail scale?

I am expecting a part today.  I am obligated not to alter it in any way, but both foundries are agreeing with me - a "no shrink" mold set will have to be in four pieces per truck.  That means to go forward I will have to cut a good truck.

Next, I heard from Lionel!  

I explained the problem, and Dean Brasseur got back to me.  Somehow the mold for this casting was altered, and there will be no more castings.  He pretty much gave me Lionel's blessing to proceed.

Finally, I am expecting a cost estimate soon.  Bob Stevenson appears ready to do this.  He has an excellent track record doing stuff for me.   He returned from vacation this morning.

I want to re-assure you - I am doing this as part of my hobby.  i have earmarked, in addition to my time, a hundred bucks or so for the "proof" set of castings.  I am almost to the point where I ask you (as a group or as an individual) to provide a good casting to cut.  If we are wildly successful, I might ask for my investment back.  I am not interested in making $, but remember, the foundry is not an eleemosynary institution.

So - Regards - Bob

 

bob2 posted:

Update!

First, this thread was on page four this morning!  I need a way to find it without looking through four pages - maybe we could move it to 3-rail scale?


 

Here is a link to your comments within posts. If you scroll through your activity, you can find your most recent gg-1 post and go from there. 

Here is a link to the actual post I quoted.  Problem is , it will always be a link to that exact post, even after there are many more.

Hope this helps.  Bookmark or Favorite (or whatever your chosen browser calls your favorite pages to go to) either one as a start point.

Oh, and regarding this topic, I still need to check, but I've got 2 of these GG-1's in my possession, but still need to see if they have the problem.  If they do have the disease I would be interested in a set for them.

If they don't seem to have signs of the problem, I'm sorry to say I am not really willing to sacrifice a good one though. 

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

A lot of good info in this thread.  Instead of getting all sophisticated about search functions, I am going to start a new thread in the 3-rail scale forum.  You can help out by condensing the information about how many locomotive sets we need and re- posting it there.

See you on the 3-rail scale forum!

I bought this engine new. It is unrun. Just checked it and the trucks/sideframes seem fine. Now a question/opinion(s), please. If there is no issues now, how likely do you think that there will be in the future (and therefore I should purchase a set to keep in reserve) -or do you think that I have one that will escape the problem. I know that one can never be 100% sure, but it seems for each engine/car with these same issues, some ( ? made at a different time, place, etc) seem not to develop the "rot" while others do.  Thanks in advance, turtle7

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