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I bought a new weathered Legacy 2-10-4 Pennsylvania J1a and I have the older Legacy J1a and the whistles are radically different. The new one sounds like the H-10 whistle and the Atlantic whistle. Do I have to listen to Thomas the Tank while running this brute? Is it just mine that has this problem or did Lionel change the sound board on the new one?

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Surefire posted:

People complained (myself included) and Lionels response was it has the correct whistle 

No idea why they wouldn't use the awesome 3 chime recording they have and instead used the little Banshee switcher whistle.

Canceled my order unfortunately 

The PRR class J1 2-10-4s did NOT have the "banshee" freight whistle. There are enough historic recordings available to prove that.

Larry Nuzzaci posted:

Thanks! I wish I would have known before I bought this engine. I wouldn't have purchased it. How do potential buyers find these things out before they purchase?

Well, there was a lot of discussion about the high pitched whistle on this very forum when this engine came out not long ago! Sorry you missed it.

You didn't also buy the new N&W Class J did you? Lots of talk about that stripe screw up! If you did, there is not much time left to send it off for a remedy!

I hear your disappointment regarding the whistle. 

I bought the USRA Pacific 6-85170 - Atlanta and West Point 290 in the 2018 catalog C1 Big Book.  Didn't know it had the same whistle as my VL Big Boy and FEF-3. 

On Youtube, I heard the whistle for the USRA Pacific 6-85172 - Blue Reading and Northern 425 (same page in catalog) and liked it better; so, ordered its sound card and replaced the card in the Atlanta and West Point.  Happier with that - such blasphemy!  $79.  If I realize the error of my ways, I can always go back - .

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I should have mentioned I use YouTube to hear what the models sound like. There are very few vintage vids with proper audio. 

Thats what I was getting at in my original post as well.

Sometimes, one must do a bit of homework to make sure they are viewing the correct version as Lionel has had multiple runs.

If the model info isn't in the title the upload date will often tell you which release it is. Folks often shoot videos of their new locomotive shortly after they receive it.

Every Loco I've ever purchased was viewed on YouTube prior.

Last edited by RickO
Keystone posted:
Norm Charbonneau posted:

Yep, YouTube is the best way to research this stuff nowadays. 

Absolutely...  check out the whistle just past the 9:00 mark from a great DVD series

Do we know that this video's sound is not dubbed? Common - even typical - to do this, as most "amateur" film was not sound film back then.

Just wondering. I've got no dog in this fight.

RickM46 posted:

I hear your disappointment regarding the whistle. 

I bought the USRA Pacific 6-85170 - Atlanta and West Point 290 in the 2018 catalog C1 Big Book.  Didn't know it had the same whistle as my VL Big Boy and FEF-3. 

On Youtube, I heard the whistle for the USRA Pacific 6-85172 - Blue Reading and Northern 425 (same page in catalog) and liked it better; so, ordered its sound card and replaced the card in the Atlanta and West Point.  Happier with that - such blasphemy!  $79.  If I realize the error of my ways, I can always go back - .

How did you order just the sound card? 

Charlie posted:

The audio on this particular video is absolutely dubbed, however, it does not make the sound incorrect or correct, only that it was added from another source later (post production).

Note that this is a Herron Rail Video production, and has footage AND sound from Mr. Don Koftra (sp), who was famous for taking movies and sound recordings of many steam operations in the mid to late 1950s. In some cases, he even took 16MM sound movies, with optical sound, live and synchronized with the film. The Herron Rail products are the best on the market for vintage steam action.

The quality and accuracy is still up for the experts to discuss.

Yes, this production is accurate, as Mr. Herron is a stickler for accuracy and top quality productions. Also, having heard many PRR steam locomotives myself, and can verify that those PRR locomotives are correct.

Charlie

 

I have the same J1a and questioned Ryan from Lionel at Trainfest in Milwaukee last fall. He said the whistle is correct is according to their research, and was used on the early build engines that were later converted to the whistle we expect it to be. Knowing that it becomes much more enjoyable.

jim911 posted:

I have the same J1a and questioned Ryan from Lionel at Trainfest in Milwaukee last fall. He said the whistle is correct is according to their research,

Obviously they didn't do proper research, nor ask anyone from the PRR Technical & Historical Society.

and was used on the early build engines that were later converted to the whistle we expect it to be. Knowing that it becomes much more enjoyable.

 

We discussed this whistle issue last October when the latest J1's came out.  I posted correct information at the time in this thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...tle-follow-up?page=1

My post is second from the top.  The latest whistle sound file used by Lionel is just plain wrong.  "Their research" which was shared at Trainfest is faulty.

There really is NO EXCUSE for getting things wrong with PRR locomotives.  The Modeling Committee of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society is ready, willing and able to help any model train manufacturer on a free and confidential basis.  Several manufacturers in HO and N-scale use the committee.  Lionel relies on "their research" and we get cr*p like this.

Well gentlemen, Lionel has finally gotten back to me regarding the J1a. It seems that everyone participating in this discussion was right but here's what they said to me. 

Quote:

Talk To US

5:00 PM (1 hour ago)

  

to me

Larry,

 

Our sources state that the PRR Banshee Whistle, which was their standard freight locomotive whistle, was used on the J1. This would be the same as the H10 and other freight locomotives on the railroad, so that is what was used on this production run as it was historically correct. As this is how the engine was produced, there would be no modifications that we can offer. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience.

 

Thank you,

 

Larry Nuzzaci posted:

Well gentlemen, Lionel has finally gotten back to me regarding the J1a. It seems that everyone participating in this discussion was right but here's what they said to me. 

Quote:

Talk To US

5:00 PM (1 hour ago)

  

to me

Larry,

 

Our sources state that the PRR Banshee Whistle, which was their standard freight locomotive whistle, was used on the J1.

Well obviously they need to consult new, and better, "sources"! It is odd that nobody at Lionel ever contacted the PRR Technical and Historical Society, which one think would be the VERY FIRST source of ANY and ALL information pertaining to ANYTHING PRR.

This would be the same as the H10 and other freight locomotives on the railroad, so that is what was used on this production run as it was historically correct.

Again,,,,,,,,,nope!

As this is how the engine was produced, there would be no modifications that we can offer. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience.

 

Thank you,

 

 

Trainlover9943 posted:
RickM46 posted:

I hear your disappointment regarding the whistle. 

I bought the USRA Pacific 6-85170 - Atlanta and West Point 290 in the 2018 catalog C1 Big Book.  Didn't know it had the same whistle as my VL Big Boy and FEF-3. 

On Youtube, I heard the whistle for the USRA Pacific 6-85172 - Blue Reading and Northern 425 (same page in catalog) and liked it better; so, ordered its sound card and replaced the card in the Atlanta and West Point.  Happier with that - such blasphemy!  $79.  If I realize the error of my ways, I can always go back - .

How did you order just the sound card? 

Matt, I went to Lionel Parts site on the internet - https://www.lionelsupport.com/ReplacementParts/; filled in the locomotive model number 6-85172 (USRA Pacific 6-85172 - Blue Reading and Northern 425), and got the parts list for the locomotive; found the part number for its lite sound card - 691RSL3516, $79: called Lionel to order it - showed up about 7 business days later; swapped it with the original sound card in the tender; you have to note where each of the plugs go into the original sound card and find their sockets in the new sound card.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I held off on ordering this engine because the first Legacy version didn’t sound as proper as the original TMCC one (which I love dearly). They somehow managed to make it sound even worse. Good grief. It’s funny how a lame whistle absolutely kills an otherwise decent engine. 

Hey Norm,

I said I'd do some digging and I found two J1 whistle recordings from back in the days of Right of Way.  They are unaltered, not resampled,  .wav files direct from the audio tape.  So the question of the hour is can a .wav file be posted as an attachment to a reply on this forum???  Maybe Alan Arnold could help out.  Otherwise I can just send them to you as an attachment to an email.  

Where's Rudy when we need him?  

Lou N

It is really odd for them to get a whistle wrong on something that you would figure should be common knowledge given Ryan's background. However there was the GS locomotive that had the wrong whistle as stated by some on the forum so bit ago.

I do have a question about whistles in general. Would ever locomotive produced say the J1a for example, have the same whistle for every engine produced of that run(meaning real locomotives naturally) or would there be variations?

I would naturally expect that whistles would be replaced over time as they would wear or perhaps get gunked up. Would they replace it with the same or whatever happen to be available that fit the bill as it were, guessing some whistles could only go on certain locomotives?

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

It is really odd for them to get a whistle wrong on something that you would figure should be common knowledge given Ryan's background. However there was the GS locomotive that had the wrong whistle as stated by some on the forum so bit ago.

I do have a question about whistles in general. Would ever locomotive produced say the J1a for example, have the same whistle for every engine produced of that run(meaning real locomotives naturally)

Yes. Whistle manufacturers were given a set of specifications & drawings for each customer, and the main whistle casting was/were produced in volume. The PRR especially had very specific :standards" for everything.

or would there be variations?

No.

I would naturally expect that whistles would be replaced over time as they would wear or perhaps get gunked up.

Yes. whistles could, and did, receive "rebuilding" and cleaning, back in the shop. Whistle components that were too badly worn, i.e. steam cut, had those components replaced.   

Would they replace it with the same

Yes.

or whatever happen to be available that fit the bill as it were,

Rarely would that have been done.

guessing some whistles could only go on certain locomotives?

Correct.

 

Hot Water posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

It is really odd for them to get a whistle wrong on something that you would figure should be common knowledge given Ryan's background. However there was the GS locomotive that had the wrong whistle as stated by some on the forum so bit ago.

I do have a question about whistles in general. Would ever locomotive produced say the J1a for example, have the same whistle for every engine produced of that run(meaning real locomotives naturally)

Yes. Whistle manufacturers were given a set of specifications & drawings for each customer, and the main whistle casting was/were produced in volume. The PRR especially had very specific :standards" for everything.

or would there be variations?

No.

I would naturally expect that whistles would be replaced over time as they would wear or perhaps get gunked up.

Yes. whistles could, and did, receive "rebuilding" and cleaning, back in the shop. Whistle components that were too badly worn, i.e. steam cut, had those components replaced.   

Would they replace it with the same

Yes.

or whatever happen to be available that fit the bill as it were,

Rarely would that have been done.

guessing some whistles could only go on certain locomotives?

Correct.

 

Thanks Hot Water. The BR&W's #60 recently got a new whistle on it which is completely different both in sound(higher pitch) and look. I don't know the design of it but it looks bigger than what it had.

In 2011 Lionel cataloged the Texas engines. I do not remember any issues with the whistle (Part # 691RSL1017) but maybe someone who has either of the two PRR engines offered can comment on the whistle. If you own the 2019 J1a version and are dissatisfied with the sounds I would recommend calling Lionel service to see if the 2011 sound board is a swap in with the 2019 sound board (Part # 691RSL3724). I do not do repairs because I have ten thumbs. If you have the same condition you could check with Alex M or GRJ if they could do the swap (If it is doable). Maybe if. You are polite and pleasant when speaking to Lionel they will swap out the part. The 2019 part is listed at $79, the 2011 part says to contact Lionel. At that time I think if you had a defective Legacy sound board you had to send Lionel your defective board and they would send you a replacement. 

I have the TMCC J1a engine and love the whistle. I also have the Legacy H10 and love that whistle too. Don’t know if I would like it in a J1a though.

JohnB

Hot Water posted:
RickO posted:
Paul Kallus posted:

I searched the internet for the latest Lionel PRR J1A model to hear the whistle and only could find the older releases.

This one comes up on the top of the list on youtube: https://youtu.be/UjVfMmFO3jY

And that is DEFINITELY the wrong whistle for a PRR J1 2-10-4!!!!!

I missed watching this yesterday and all I can say is "Wow?" That sounds like the B6's whistle, or close to it. I guess I won't blow the whistle on mine then, may confuse people into thinking a Switcher is coming down the tracks.

On another note, was the operation of the cylinder steam changed with this engine? On my MILW S3 from 2010 the cylinder steam works whenever you pressed the blowdown button. Now it only works when the engine begins moving after sitting for a while. I'm aware this operation is more prototypical but it takes away from the play value of the engine. 

You can also add me to the group of those dissatisfied with the whistle. It's silly seeing this beast of an engine roar down the tracks and then squeak like a mouse at a railroad crossing.

Last edited by Maxrailroad

If you aren't satisfied with the sound of the whistle you can always order a new sound board from Lionel from an existing engine that is equipped with the RailSound-lite Board. Probably either from the 2010 version.

You may not get the cylinder steam sounds though..... if you order from another engine that isn't equipped with that feature.... Which your selection is limited.

Lou1985 posted:

I wish Lionel had the ability to change sound files like MTH. Then this would be easy/free. 

I've had some issues with the whistle or bell sound MTH has used in their files. I just use this program to correct it: http://www.silogic.com/trains/ADPCM.html

No having to buy new sound boards. Change the whistle or bell to something you like better and upload it to the locomotive. Done. 

This is why DCC is the future, you can do all of that and more in DCC. Hence why i'm slowly converting my older TMCC locos.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Lou, thanks for posting that! 

FWIW, the first J1a reissue with Legacy has that generic raspy whistle Lionel spams into everything. Bell is generic too. The TMCC one still sounds the best. 

I totally agree with you. I forgot how bad that whistle was on the 2010 version. I think the closes whistle they had was on the Legacy LionMaster T1. 

With all the complaints throughout the years.....I’m really surprised and not at the same time Lionel will not let us choose our sound files. With this current generation of electronics its possible to re-flash the soundboard. I have had to see so many customers at our dealer return their Legacy Lionel locomotives throughout the years because of the sounds that were chosen for that model were terrible.

I work on all the scales Z-G and installed various forms of after market sound systems in DCC. All sound decoders that are available from Soundtraxx, TCS, ESU, MRC, DigiTraxx are completely customize-able in function and sound types and volumes. TCS’s WowSounds Steam decoder has like 70 different whistles you can choose from that are actual recordings.

ESU has the best recordings of diesel prime movers you can get. They have around 4-5 different recordings for a 567 prime mover. I don’t even want get into the programing capabilities to customize the decoder function and individual sounds.... At least from MTH you can email them and they can send you a modified sound file.

Lionel was well know for their railsounds back in the day compared to all the scales and to be honest the only thing they have going for them today is the manually quill-able whistle/horn feature that's integrated into their remotes. 

Lionel could make easy money off the programmer/program to upgrade the individual files. They could focus on more individual and prototypical sound files/recordings. Heck they could even partner with one of the Decoder manufactures I mentioned above. 

They could even sell those sound files individually to us so they could make money off their hard work properly providing us with the correct sound recordings and bells. 

Of course you’ll have people (the consumer) that wont be able to handle the complexity of this. But that's why you have service stations and private individuals that can do these things for them. I’m not slamming Lionel, I just want them to be the best they can be. 

#moneymaker  #makelionelgreatagain

@Dave Olson

Last edited by Bruk

Hmm, with the newest catalog as far as the VL GS series, I believe Dave and or Ryan had stated in their FB review of the catalog that those contained the newest boards that you would be able to tweak the sounds themselves, set a certain pitch for the whistle and bell, and it would retain that in the engine. I'm only going off what they said, and I don't think anything else in that catalog out of the Legacy engines(though I may be mistaken, maybe the Reading engines) had the new boards. They indicated that this would be the future as the old boards were going out.

That being said, we can only wait and see what is going to happen. Do I think the whistle & bell tweaking would make the right whistle and bell for the engines, no idea. Only the finished product and trial and error would yield such things. It would be great if those that wanted to, could have a sit in secession with Dave to see the new boards and all they can do. Either that or they demonstrate them at the shows throughout the year as Dave will probably be working on other projects and not able to attend the shows.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Hmm, with the newest catalog as far as the VL GS series, I believe Dave and or Ryan had stated in their FB review of the catalog that those contained the newest boards that you would be able to tweak the sounds themselves, set a certain pitch for the whistle and bell, and it would retain that in the engine. I'm only going off what they said, and I don't think anything else in that catalog out of the Legacy engines(though I may be mistaken, maybe the Reading engines) had the new boards. They indicated that this would be the future as the old boards were going out.

The new engines with the new boards will have 5 different whistles/horns that you can toggle thru,same with the bell.

Doug 

trnluvr posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Hmm, with the newest catalog as far as the VL GS series, I believe Dave and or Ryan had stated in their FB review of the catalog that those contained the newest boards that you would be able to tweak the sounds themselves, set a certain pitch for the whistle and bell, and it would retain that in the engine. I'm only going off what they said, and I don't think anything else in that catalog out of the Legacy engines(though I may be mistaken, maybe the Reading engines) had the new boards. They indicated that this would be the future as the old boards were going out.

The new engines with the new boards will have 5 different whistles/horns that you can toggle thru,same with the bell.

Doug 

OK, but:

1) Will the various whistle "choices" be prototypically correct?

2) Will the bell operation be prototypically correct, i.e. NOT a "swinging bell" sound for steam locomotives equipped with stationary bells with just an internal air-ringer, like a diesel bell?

@Hot Water and that is the question, would they be prototypical? We're not going to know until they have one of the new engines to show off and go through all that. The only other way beside us getting one of these new engines is for Dave to pop in here and explain or explain elsewhere.

My guess is we'll be waiting for someone to show off the engines when they arrive assuming things get produced in a timely fashion, etc., etc.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

@Hot Water and that is the question, would they be prototypical? We're not going to know until they have one of the new engines to show off and go through all that. The only other way beside us getting one of these new engines is for Dave to pop in here and explain or explain elsewhere.

My guess is we'll be waiting for someone to show off the engines when they arrive assuming things get produced in a timely fashion, etc., etc.

Well, there is always the availability of the REAL SP GS-4, #4449, which now does have an ORIGINAL SP GS-4 whistle! It really would not be all that difficult for the folks at Lionel to coordinate with the Friends of SP4449, and schedule a "recording session" the next time 4449 is fired up. I would be more than happy to put Dave Olsen in touch directly with Doyle McCormack.

Surefire posted:

No idea why they wouldn't use the awesome 3 chime recording they have and instead used the little Banshee switcher whistle.

Not sure if this is the whistle you referring to, but my Pennsy favorite is the legacy m1b from 2008:

 

The legacy M1a also had a good whistle, more raw sounding than the m1b: https://youtu.be/FTtloB-OI5Q

Why couldn't either of these whistles  have made it into the J1A?

 On a side not the first legacy gs 4449 had the actual 4449 whistle, Subsequent GS models got a "kinda sorta" SP whistle.

How do they get it wrong.....on the second try?

Attachments

Videos (1)
20200227_183259
Last edited by RickO

I posted about this issue when I first started to see reviews and videos of this engine as I had ordered one BTO.  Lionel stated to me that I had made the only complaint on this engine and that the whistle they put it in was the "prototypical" whistle decided on by Lionel engineers...everything else about the engine is fantastic but the whistle clearly does not fit, like not even close lol  I still love legacy steamers, but this engine was the last engine I will ever preorder unless Lionel releases the sounds beforehand as part of an interactive catalog.  Oh well! 

I was explaining this to a friend of mine the other day who knows how much of a train nut I am. I have told him there are certain things I know, and a whole bunch of stuff I don't. Talking about this, I said it was like having one of the English or European steam engines that have the really high pitched whistle when it should be a deep throaty type of whistle. The difference really is night and day and clearly not right. If they have a real example, I'm sure we would all like to see it, but guessing that unicorn won't pop up.

A.J. posted:

I posted about this issue when I first started to see reviews and videos of this engine as I had ordered one BTO.  Lionel stated to me that I had made the only complaint on this engine and that the whistle they put it in was the "prototypical" whistle decided on by Lionel engineers...everything else about the engine is fantastic but the whistle clearly does not fit, like not even close lol  I still love legacy steamers, but this engine was the last engine I will ever preorder unless Lionel releases the sounds beforehand as part of an interactive catalog.  Oh well! 

I wouldn't be surprised. Many people come here to complain and NEVER go to the source.  Folks need to learn that complaining here is NOT the solution.  Complaining to the manufacturer maynot be either but is better than here.

Why would you bother complaining to Lionel? They are just going to BS you anyway. Best thing to do is wait for something to come out and then see who puts it up on Youtube. 

And BTW, go on Youtube and look at the videos of companies like Rapido, Hornby, and Marklin. While Lionel hams it up with cutesy antics, these companies are actually engaging their customers and showing how serious they are about making superior products. It's actually very refreshing compared to the current state of O gauge.

I know that at last October's York a lot of people were talking to Ryan about their complaints with the recent releases that had come through just before York. While those were mostly addressed, it is still a good idea to at least have an open discussion with them on any level(as long as you aren't yelling).

As for this issue it really doesn't look like there is any room for us to get the whistle that we believe(and know) should be in there. I suppose we might as well got to the train store(or show or wherever) and pick up a wood whistle to blow(unless you already have one, I've got two myself). At least then it would sound hopefully close to what it is supposed to be.

This is the second post about the whistles on the latest Legacy J1a Pennsy engines, each one being about the same length about 2 pages. I do think Lionel listens when people who actually bought engines call or email them with their complaint. We on the forum are lucky that both Ryan and Dave post on the forum so you can easily obtain their work email address so if you bought a new Legacy J1a engine and do not like the whistle email them. They did come around on the NW J stripe issue. I think they could do a board switch out on these engines as long as enough people let them know. Oh by the way attach all the videos and sound files to you emails. Considering the 2010 Legacy J1a had a more acceptable whistle it should not take a big push to get this issue resolved. As I have said I have the TMCC version of the J1a upgraded by Alex M with a GRJ super chuffer and that’s all I need.

JohnB

It would be very helpful for both the consumer and the manufacturer/importer to post their new products online with as accurate dimensions, pictures, and planned sound sets via a simple click of the mouse, prior to pre-order due dates. In this time of built-to-order, for Lionel at least, this would enable sufficient feedback and changes before production, and a lot more contented customers.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Why would you bother complaining to Lionel? They are just going to BS you anyway. Best thing to do is wait for something to come out and then see who puts it up on Youtube. 

And BTW, go on Youtube and look at the videos of companies like Rapido, Hornby, and Marklin. While Lionel hams it up with cutesy antics, these companies are actually engaging their customers and showing how serious they are about making superior products. It's actually very refreshing compared to the current state of O gauge.

Norm,

Lionel keeps returning to Korea Brass for product.  And with Jon Z and Rudy gone, this is where I am hearing the electronics is coming from....

https://www.hktdc.com/sourcing...029BV8&locale=en

Believe me, there was nothing like an inspection trip to see Mr Cho at Ajin Precision to see a real professional operation.

Lou N

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
Hot Water posted:
RickO posted:
Paul Kallus posted:

I searched the internet for the latest Lionel PRR J1A model to hear the whistle and only could find the older releases.

This one comes up on the top of the list on youtube: https://youtu.be/UjVfMmFO3jY

And that is DEFINITELY the wrong whistle for a PRR J1 2-10-4!!!!!

I missed watching this yesterday and all I can say is "Wow?" That sounds like the B6's whistle, or close to it. I guess I won't blow the whistle on mine then, may confuse people into thinking a Switcher is coming down the tracks.

It's exactly the same as the Legacy B6 whistle. I just put my new PRR J1 on the layout yesterday and was appalled by the wimpy whistle on such a huge engine. I am by no means an expert, but there is no way this whistle could be prototypically correct. It needs to be replaced. The whistle on my Legacy M1A Mountain is terrific. I wonder whether the sound board for an M1A could be subbed for the J1 board.

The current J1 whistle sounds nothing like the whistle on the earlier TMCC version of the J1 that Norm Charbonneau posted on his awesome video. I also have an MTH PRR Proto-3 J1, which also has a powerful whistle, although I'm not sure it is prototypically correct. I will try to post a video playing the whistles of both the Proto-3 and Legacy versions of the J1. 

Pat 

Last edited by irish rifle
Paul Kallus posted:

It would be very helpful for both the consumer and the manufacturer/importer to post their new products online with as accurate dimensions, pictures, and planned sound sets via a simple click of the mouse, prior to pre-order due dates. In this time of built-to-order, for Lionel at least, this would enable sufficient feedback and changes before production, and a lot more contented customers.

This assumes that the actually KNOW what is coming from China....and have control over it.
How does a company's own, current offering differ from their own, previous offering....that was more correct or simply....better?

 

I’m sort of surprised Lionel even bothers to make scale engines anymore. It’s all warmed over early 2000s tooling with extra smoke and weird paint jobs. I guess they sell pretty well though. I’m just too picky and jaded to put up with their mistakes. I am slowly selling down my engine roster and wouldn’t mind just having a handful or two of some nice 3rd Rails. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I’m sort of surprised Lionel even bothers to make scale engines anymore. It’s all warmed over early 2000s tooling with extra smoke and weird paint jobs. I guess they sell pretty well though. I’m just too picky and jaded to put up with their mistakes. I am slowly selling down my engine roster and wouldn’t mind just having a handful or two of some nice 3rd Rails. 

I think you need to step up to 2 rail scale or proto 48. Hopefully that would satisfy you. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

 It’s all warmed over early 2000s tooling with extra smoke and weird paint jobs.

That seems to be what folks are willing to spend big $$$$ on these days.  After all, it's their money and they want to spend it now.  (Apologies to J.G. Wentworth...)

I've often commented that Lionel could sell a motorized 2x4 if it had sound and lots of smoke.

Rusty

In all fairness, their sound has become very impressive and the smoke output greatly increased....if that matters to you.

As to why they can't improve upon what they offered from 2000-2010 or so....let alone EQUAL these models...is up to speculation and debate, most of it bad.

Add in being asked to now buy these sight unseen, though, has become almost laughable, IMHO.

Berkshire President posted:

As to why they can't improve upon what they offered from 2000-2010 or so....let alone EQUAL these models...is up to speculation and debate, most of it bad.

I'd say the loss of really talented people like Mike Reagan, Jon Zahornacky and Rudy Trubitt has a lot to do with it.

Berkshire President posted:

In all fairness, their sound has become very impressive and the smoke output greatly increased....if that matters to you.

Only if its correct, otherwise its just loud. Smoke can be fun, when it works, but I'd take a proper graphite colored smokebox over a hotrod tender anyday. My eyes burn when I look the bright silver on my H10.

HOW DID THEY MANAGE 5 CHUFFS ON THE NEW HUDSON???? Maybe I should by one of the old 2 chuff hudsons and see if a couple of  forum members will part with an extra chuff on their new ones LOL!

As to why they can't improve upon what they offered from 2000-2010 or so....let alone EQUAL these models...is up to speculation and debate, most of it bad.

Maybe because many of the design/ tech folks at Lionel at that time are no longer there and the paint shop is colorblind. 

Add in being asked to now buy these sight unseen, though, has become almost laughable, IMHO.

True, I really wanted to preorder some VL reefers since the first offering was so good and these are IMO, a "low risk" item. Just couldn't bring myself to do it with recent "rehashes" having issues they didn't have the first time around.

 

 

Last edited by RickO
Bob posted:
Berkshire President posted:

As to why they can't improve upon what they offered from 2000-2010 or so....let alone EQUAL these models...is up to speculation and debate, most of it bad.

I'd say the loss of really talented people like Mike Reagan, Jon Zahornacky and Rudy Trubitt has a lot to do with it.

You can add Dean Brasseur to the list. Unfortunately.

Bob

This is one of the engines on my list of engines to have. It should matter to have the right whistle, but like I said above, "I guess I could run it without blowing it."

We can only hope that with so many issues that consumers have been having over the past(however long it is now) 3-7 years(again, not sure how long) that things will get better or right as they should be. It is difficult for them to say things are okay when you have something that barks like a poodle when it is supposed to be a great Dane.

I know that we had hoped Dave would pop in here and say what for, but if Lionel has already said that the whistle is "correct" & "prototypical", why should he. It's not his call to pop in here would be my guess as he has other stuff that he has to keep his eyes on. I'm not knocking Dave at all, respect him for all that we don't know he does and what little we do know. Hopefully whenever the next version of this is offered(the green clown version that never was), the whistle will be the big behemoth that we know it should be, not a shrieking cat.

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