Having an issue with one of my new Legacy PA A units. No matter what I set its ID to, once the track is powered down it resets itself back to default ID #1. It also forgets being programmed into the "lashup" even if loaded in as id #1 so I have to rebuild the train each time in the remote. Other than this all features work. Any ideas? 

Original Post
Surefire posted:

Having an issue with one of my new Legacy PA A units. No matter what I set its ID to, once the track is powered down it resets itself back to default ID #1. It also forgets being programmed into the "lashup" even if loaded in as id #1 so I have to rebuild the train each time in the remote. Other than this all features work. Any ideas? 

Funny you mention that.  I started having the same issue.  I have to put in "pgm" and set it very often.  I am not crazy about stopping them too far in the back of the layout.  Doesn't happen all of the time.  Probably 1/2 the time.  I was going to post this, but you beat me too it.

The B and trailing A are fine.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

BNSF-Matt posted:

Update: all 3 are forgetting their ID now. Both A units and the B unit. Frustrating to say the least at this point. 

The thing that makes this difficult is getting it to happen predictably.  Try explaining this and having Lionel duplicate the problem.  At least we have a month before we could ship anything back.  I'm sure as more people experience this, the wheel will get the grease.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

I'm guessing it's bad EPROM chips, or whatever memory chip on the main board that holds the programmed ID. I can't see myself reprogramming each one and creating a train after every track power on. I will probably create one more video and then pack them up until I can get them fixed. I have plenty of other trains to run, shame because these are really nice too, but I'm sure Lionel will get it resolved.

BNSF-Matt posted:

I'm guessing it's bad EPROM chips, or whatever memory chip on the main board that holds the programmed ID. I can't see myself reprogramming each one and creating a train after every track power on. I will probably create one more video and then pack them up until I can get them fixed. I have plenty of other trains to run, shame because these are really nice too, but I'm sure Lionel will get it resolved.

Does yours do this every time?  Mine does it about every 3 or 4 times.  I originally thought bad pgm/run switch.  But you and a couple others with the same problem, tells me it is more inside the program or hardware.  I'm sure the problem will be a multiple pager when posted.  A lot of people bought these ALCOs.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

I have a similar issue with an AC-9 steamer which won’t take a new ID at all. Thought it was likely to be a RUN/PGM switch issue but I haven’t tried replacing that yet. If however you can get a new ID to “take” but it won’t stay in memory that definitely suggests a board issue, which only Lionel can (and should) address.

BNSF-Matt posted:

They all reset to the default ID#1 for me. Which can technically work, but I can't run an ABA because the rear A needs to have a direction change.

Aren’t both A’s set to the same default from the factory? If so, could you run them as an engine because the trailing unit defaults to run backwards out of the box?

Also I noticed if I flip the Program run switch back-and-forth many times the problem has not occurred for me for about the last 10 inches start up cycles

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Aren’t both A’s set to the same default from the factory? If so, could you run them as an engine because the trailing unit defaults to run backwards out of the box?

That's been my experience with Legacy A-A sets. If you change the engine ID of both to the same number, they still run that way. So they don't need to be lashed up (Ooops, said the dirty word) as you'd do under Legacy with unpaired powered engines. I always wondered how Lionel managed this but never inquired. 

BNSF-Matt posted:

They all reset to the default ID#1 for me. Which can technically work, but I can't run an ABA because the rear A needs to have a direction change.

That won't work. Have some new guest units over with the default address of 1 and I won't change their ID since they're not mine. 

PeterA posted:

Glad to see this post.  Almost sent mine back, too.  I have the same problem and thought it was something on my layout triggering the problem.  Let's hope Dave Olsen sees these post and chimes in.  

If you want Dave Olson to see it, mark it to get his attention. @Dave Olson

Jim R. 

Dave Olson posted:

These will need to come into Service to be reprogrammed. Service should start accepting repairs again sometime in July once the move is finished.

Ouch Dave.  You sold a ton of these.  From what I see, they can be manipulated to work until then.  I really like my NYC set.  Sorry about your misfortune.  Thought it only happens in my business.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

BNSF-MATT,

       I have a set of PRR Century Club Sharks where both A units are powered. One of the units starts up in forward and the other starts in reverse. I programmed them both with the same number and they run fine. Try setting up your ABA set all with number 1. If the A units start up in the correct directions (one forward one reverse) you will be in business until Lionel can reprogram your engines.

JohnB

JohnB posted:

BNSF-MATT,

       I have a set of PRR Century Club Sharks where both A units are powered. One of the units starts up in forward and the other starts in reverse. I programmed them both with the same number and they run fine. Try setting up your ABA set all with number 1. If the A units start up in the correct directions (one forward one reverse) you will be in business until Lionel can reprogram your engines.

JohnB

Thank you! I will try setting them up like that this afternoon.

Hi everyone...I have the NYC version (#1933180). I haven’t been having the same problems as those on this thread, only because I run it on the factory setting of engine 1. However I have encountered  another problem which you might want to look out for. Several times since I started running the set the rear unit has lost signal and either stopped dead or after I put in a direction change kept going in the old direction. In any case this led to one engine trying to pull the other or the two engines pulling against each other, resulting in a horrible sound and trauma to the operator  (me)! I assumed it was a bad connection on the track or dirt on the track but after cleaning everything up it was still happening. I just figured out what the problem is. When I took a look underneath the rear unit I found that the two pick up rollers in the rear of truck do not roll at all and were covered in crud. Basically those two rollers were acting as a track cleaner! I was thinking of trying to oil the rollers but since the front unit also has a problem which is an incessant ticking sound that I can’t seem to isolate I think I’m going to return the set. It’s a shame that we are all having these problems because it is a really beautiful engine.

Pete that was just the last straw...the set had other problems already...the units don't run straight on the track..really weird but true...the lead A has a loud ticking sound at all times...checked rollers, gears, etc...can't eliminate it no matter what I try. And as for oiling the rollers..some say you should NEVER do that, but I would try it if that were the only problem. 

BNSF-Matt posted:
JohnB posted:

BNSF-MATT,

       I have a set of PRR Century Club Sharks where both A units are powered. One of the units starts up in forward and the other starts in reverse. I programmed them both with the same number and they run fine. Try setting up your ABA set all with number 1. If the A units start up in the correct directions (one forward one reverse) you will be in business until Lionel can reprogram your engines.

JohnB

Thank you! I will try setting them up like that this afternoon.

This might be a wild one.  I have been able to power down/up my aba as a makeup around 10 times so far.  What I did when I assigned the number was to turn the switch from program to run without turning off the transformer power.  I could then shut the engine down and restart.  It also operated properly without shutting the engine down after assigning the number.  Give that a try.  Who knows, for whatever reason it may hold the ID indefinitely.  We will have time to try before they are ready to open the service department.

Big L, please make sure the VL Challengers are right before you ship them.  Bad enough to pack an A unit.  Don't want to think about shipping a $2K engine through common carriers.  Never a pleasant experience.  Also, the backlog will be overwhelming.

Give the switch without transformer power down.  It may work.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

JamesRx posted:

Hi everyone...I have the NYC version (#1933180). I haven’t been having the same problems as those on this thread, only because I run it on the factory setting of engine 1. However I have encountered  another problem which you might want to look out for. Several times since I started running the set the rear unit has lost signal and either stopped dead or after I put in a direction change kept going in the old direction. In any case this led to one engine trying to pull the other or the two engines pulling against each other, resulting in a horrible sound and trauma to the operator  (me)! I assumed it was a bad connection on the track or dirt on the track but after cleaning everything up it was still happening. I just figured out what the problem is. When I took a look underneath the rear unit I found that the two pick up rollers in the rear of truck do not roll at all and were covered in crud. Basically those two rollers were acting as a track cleaner! I was thinking of trying to oil the rollers but since the front unit also has a problem which is an incessant ticking sound that I can’t seem to isolate I think I’m going to return the set. It’s a shame that we are all having these problems because it is a really beautiful engine.

You are doing the right thing. So sad. This should just about do it for the big “L”. 

Rod Miller

JamesRx posted:

Pete that was just the last straw...the set had other problems already...the units don't run straight on the track..really weird but true...the lead A has a loud ticking sound at all times...checked rollers, gears, etc...can't eliminate it no matter what I try. And as for oiling the rollers..some say you should NEVER do that, but I would try it if that were the only problem. 

I remember MTH stating that rollers should be oiled to allow better conductivity to minimize light flicker in passenger cars.  From my experience, what they instruct is true.  I agree with Norton.  I oil all of my rollers with 3 in 1 PTFE.  I think the oil has Teflon.  Works for me.  Put red and tacky on the gears and it should be very smooth.  I do this with all of my engines and cars as I unpack them.  Has not failed me yet.  I hope yours comes around.  Work on 1 problem at a time.  I think the engines are beautiful and would hate to see an engine lose its home and obviously a passionate train collector.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

I'm to the point that defective trains are no longer an option for me at the prices we pay. I will work with this A unit but if it won't come around they are simply getting returned. Not going through the double whammy of having to send them back and the place I need to send them to isn't even accepting warranty work. After the Mogul fiasco I told myself never again. 

 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
JamesRx posted:

Pete that was just the last straw...the set had other problems already...the units don't run straight on the track..really weird but true...the lead A has a loud ticking sound at all times...checked rollers, gears, etc...can't eliminate it no matter what I try. And as for oiling the rollers..some say you should NEVER do that, but I would try it if that were the only problem. 

I remember MTH stating that rollers should be oiled to allow better conductivity to minimize light flicker in passenger cars.  From my experience, what they instruct is true.  I agree with Norton.  I oil all of my rollers with 3 in 1 PTFE.  I think the oil has Teflon.  Works for me.  Put red and tacky on the gears and it should be very smooth.  I do this with all of my engines and cars as I unpack them.  Has not failed me yet.  I hope yours comes around.  Work on 1 problem at a time.  I think the engines are beautiful and would hate to see an engine lose its home and obviously a passionate train collector.

I oil all my pickup rollers with Labelle 107. No electrical pickup issues and everything runs great. 

Santa Fe, All the Way

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
JamesRx posted:

Pete that was just the last straw...the set had other problems already...the units don't run straight on the track..really weird but true...the lead A has a loud ticking sound at all times...checked rollers, gears, etc...can't eliminate it no matter what I try. And as for oiling the rollers..some say you should NEVER do that, but I would try it if that were the only problem. 

I remember MTH stating that rollers should be oiled to allow better conductivity to minimize light flicker in passenger cars.  From my experience, what they instruct is true.  I agree with Norton.  I oil all of my rollers with 3 in 1 PTFE.  I think the oil has Teflon.  Works for me.  Put red and tacky on the gears and it should be very smooth.  I do this with all of my engines and cars as I unpack them.  Has not failed me yet.  I hope yours comes around.  Work on 1 problem at a time.  I think the engines are beautiful and would hate to see an engine lose its home and obviously a passionate train collector.

Bryant thank you so much for your reply. I was actually starting to put them back in the box, but you have inspired me. I could learn a lot from good folks like you and Norton (Pete). I'm going to keep them and see if I can't fix them myself. Thanks again!

JamesRx posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
JamesRx posted:

Pete that was just the last straw...the set had other problems already...the units don't run straight on the track..really weird but true...the lead A has a loud ticking sound at all times...checked rollers, gears, etc...can't eliminate it no matter what I try. And as for oiling the rollers..some say you should NEVER do that, but I would try it if that were the only problem. 

I remember MTH stating that rollers should be oiled to allow better conductivity to minimize light flicker in passenger cars.  From my experience, what they instruct is true.  I agree with Norton.  I oil all of my rollers with 3 in 1 PTFE.  I think the oil has Teflon.  Works for me.  Put red and tacky on the gears and it should be very smooth.  I do this with all of my engines and cars as I unpack them.  Has not failed me yet.  I hope yours comes around.  Work on 1 problem at a time.  I think the engines are beautiful and would hate to see an engine lose its home and obviously a passionate train collector.

Bryant thank you so much for your reply. I was actually starting to put them back in the box, but you have inspired me. I could learn a lot from good folks like you and Norton (Pete). I'm going to keep them and see if I can't fix them myself. Thanks again!

That's the spirit.  You can go to my profile for my email address if you want.  We will all get through this.

The good news is that you are not alone and others want to fix this just as badly.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

One more thing....when you all get a chance can you check if your front electrocoupler is working? Mine is not because the little white plug that powers the coupler is not plugged in. Twisted off the lion drive truck, spent a good hour getting the plug back in (due to an impossibly short cord on the plug) and then when I twisted the truck back on the plugged pulled out again! Fortunately I never really use the coupler on the lead engine, but still...

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
JamesRx posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
JamesRx posted:

Pete that was just the last straw...the set had other problems already...the units don't run straight on the track..really weird but true...the lead A has a loud ticking sound at all times...checked rollers, gears, etc...can't eliminate it no matter what I try. And as for oiling the rollers..some say you should NEVER do that, but I would try it if that were the only problem. 

I remember MTH stating that rollers should be oiled to allow better conductivity to minimize light flicker in passenger cars.  From my experience, what they instruct is true.  I agree with Norton.  I oil all of my rollers with 3 in 1 PTFE.  I think the oil has Teflon.  Works for me.  Put red and tacky on the gears and it should be very smooth.  I do this with all of my engines and cars as I unpack them.  Has not failed me yet.  I hope yours comes around.  Work on 1 problem at a time.  I think the engines are beautiful and would hate to see an engine lose its home and obviously a passionate train collector.

Bryant thank you so much for your reply. I was actually starting to put them back in the box, but you have inspired me. I could learn a lot from good folks like you and Norton (Pete). I'm going to keep them and see if I can't fix them myself. Thanks again!

That's the spirit.  You can go to my profile for my email address if you want.  We will all get through this.

The good news is that you are not alone and others want to fix this just as badly.

Thanks again Bryant!

JamesRx posted:

One more thing....when you all get a chance can you check if your front electrocoupler is working? Mine is not because the little white plug that powers the coupler is not plugged in. Twisted off the lion drive truck, spent a good hour getting the plug back in (due to an impossibly short cord on the plug) and then when I twisted the truck back on the plugged pulled out again! Fortunately I never really use the coupler on the lead engine, but still...

James - 

All couplers are working on my set. 

So not sure if I should alert our LHS that ALL his stock should be sent back?

 

J Daddy posted:
BobbyD posted:

This isn't good if all these ALCO PA's have to go back.

Still not sure on that. I will be investigating

Friends have 2 Santa Fe sets with the issue, one is pondering repair vs the potential for damage and cost to return them to Lionel. the other guy is sending his in for a refund. I believe his exact words were "I didn't spend $1,500 to get defective/damaged units, I bought NEW ones" and the emphasis on "new" was his. I tend to agree, while they may fix these it is something that should never have happened. Does anyone here have a set that works?

Hey guys I know this is not related to the main issue on this thread but for yet more Alco problems check out my post, titled appropriately enough "More Alco problems" So far I have sent one set back due to an internal short circuit, complete with sparks,  dealt with super loud ticking rollers, a non-working front coupler (on both sets!), and now the dreaded blinking cab light! Good grief!

 

I wanted to give it a few days and hopefully I'm not jinxing myself here. On Thursday I used some contact cleaner on all 3 of the Run / Prog switches on my ABA. Ran the switches back and forth, sprayed on both sides, and then reprogrammed all of them.

So far over 4 days, and multiple power cycles I have not run into the issue with losing the ID on any of them. I will continue to run them at least once per day this week and see what happens.

BNSF-Matt posted:

I wanted to give it a few days and hopefully I'm not jinxing myself here. On Thursday I used some contact cleaner on all 3 of the Run / Prog switches on my ABA. Ran the switches back and forth, sprayed on both sides, and then reprogrammed all of them.

So far over 4 days, and multiple power cycles I have not run into the issue with losing the ID on any of them. I will continue to run them at least once per day this week and see what happens.

Best of luck Matt...hope or works out. Mine have so many other issues I'm hoping to find a way to keep from sending them back to Concord. There will probably be a long line of units going in for repair and I'd rather not be in that line!

JamesRx posted:
BNSF-Matt posted:

I wanted to give it a few days and hopefully I'm not jinxing myself here. On Thursday I used some contact cleaner on all 3 of the Run / Prog switches on my ABA. Ran the switches back and forth, sprayed on both sides, and then reprogrammed all of them.

So far over 4 days, and multiple power cycles I have not run into the issue with losing the ID on any of them. I will continue to run them at least once per day this week and see what happens.

Best of luck Matt...hope or works out. Mine have so many other issues I'm hoping to find a way to keep from sending them back to Concord. There will probably be a long line of units going in for repair and I'd rather not be in that line!

Thanks James and I hope you get your issues resolved without having to send them in. I don't particularly like shipping my units to get them fixed, the last one I sent in to get fixed came back working but damaged.

BNSF-Matt posted:
JamesRx posted:
BNSF-Matt posted:

I wanted to give it a few days and hopefully I'm not jinxing myself here. On Thursday I used some contact cleaner on all 3 of the Run / Prog switches on my ABA. Ran the switches back and forth, sprayed on both sides, and then reprogrammed all of them.

So far over 4 days, and multiple power cycles I have not run into the issue with losing the ID on any of them. I will continue to run them at least once per day this week and see what happens.

Best of luck Matt...hope or works out. Mine have so many other issues I'm hoping to find a way to keep from sending them back to Concord. There will probably be a long line of units going in for repair and I'd rather not be in that line!

Thanks James and I hope you get your issues resolved without having to send them in. I don't particularly like shipping my units to get them fixed, the last one I sent in to get fixed came back working but damaged.

I hear you! So many people have had similar experiences. These trains don't travel well when they are not on the tracks!

I am glad I waited and let you guys be my guinea pigs on these new Legacy PAs.

I was interested, but now, I will pass.

This QA stuff with Lionel is getting old.

Ok so running day 5. Turned on power; returned A unit is ok, super bass B unit ok, trailing A unit is starting up in conventional now. 

Remove shell, found magnet glued to top of shell with double sided sticky tape has fallen down and noted that there are two wires to the antenna. One wire was loose, resoldered, reprogramed, shut power off and on, ID remembered. 

When did the Antennas go to two wires and sticky taped to the shell? This is what gets Lionel into trouble... non-standardization. 

Well, will continue running and will report out what I find. 

Cheers.

Just took delivery on the PRR Lionel PA (1933191) and PB (1933193).  After fully programing the engines, when placed on the same track with other engines already programed, the new engines will not respond and have to be reprogramed.  The new programing works fine (crew sounds, signals, engine sounds, speed) until the unit is placed on a powered track with other locomotives, then the engine will not respond.  Only happens with these two new PA/PB units.  Any one else having this issue?

Pennsyforever

pennsyforever posted:

Just took delivery on the PRR Lionel PA (1933191) and PB (1933193).  After fully programing the engines, when placed on the same track with other engines already programed, the new engines will not respond and have to be reprogramed.  The new programing works fine (crew sounds, signals, engine sounds, speed) until the unit is placed on a powered track with other locomotives, then the engine will not respond.  Only happens with these two new PA/PB units.  Any one else having this issue?

Pennsyforever

Do they respond when using Engine ID 1?

That's right Matt, once you program to engines, and then cut power to the track, and turn power back on, all the previous programing is lost.  Seems Lionel's PAs are as problematic as were Alco's!  And it also seems to problem is pretty universal across owners.

pennsyforever

Craignor posted:

I am glad I waited and let you guys be my guinea pigs on these new Legacy PAs.

I was interested, but now, I will pass.

This QA stuff with Lionel is getting old.

Craignor, I hear you! And nobody gets more frustrated with anything less than perfection at these prices then I do. It reminds me of the quote often attributed to Albert Einstein. Something about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result! But in this case I prefer the old joke about the man who goes to a doctor complaining that his brother thinks he is a chicken. The doctor says why don't you get him some help? The man replies we would but we need the eggs! So I would give up on these Alcos too if it  we're not that they are so good-looking and good sounding and so close to the prototype of my beloved New York Central!

I have certainly been through stuff like this before but Dean at Lionel has always made things right and in the end I always believed it was worth the wait because you end up with some really spectacular trains to run.

But I certainly respect and understand your decision!

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JamesRx posted:
Craignor posted:

I am glad I waited and let you guys be my guinea pigs on these new Legacy PAs.

I was interested, but now, I will pass.

This QA stuff with Lionel is getting old.

Craignor, I hear you! And nobody gets more frustrated with anything less than perfection at these prices then I do. It reminds me of the quote often attributed to Albert Einstein. Something about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result! But in this case I prefer the old joke about the man who goes to a doctor complaining that his brother thinks he is a chicken. The doctor says why don't you get him some help? The man replies we would but we need the eggs! So I would give up on these Alcos too if it  we're not that they are so good-looking and good sounding and so close to the prototype of my beloved New York Central!

I have certainly been through stuff like this before but Dean at Lionel has always made things right and in the end I always believed it was worth the wait because you end up with some really spectacular trains to run.

But I certainly respect and understand your decision!

It has been 2 weeks since I received mine.  I did some things that I posted earlier in this topic.  I have been gone for 1 week without touching them.  Came home last night from a business convention and fired up the layout.  Works like a charm  Cycled transformer on and off.  Cycled engines on and off.  Perfect operation.  To summarize:

1)  Flipped program/Run switch fast back and forth about 30 times.

2) Assigned ID per instructions with the following EXCEPTION:  Don't cycle transformer power on and off during the assigning.  1) Transformer power off 2) Place engine on track with switch in program. 3) Assign ID - DON'T TURN POWER OFF ON TRANSFORMER 4) Flip switch to run mode. 5) Turn engine off with CAB.

From that point I was done with assigning and have had no problem whatsoever for 2 weeks.  I recommend giving that a try before giving up.  I am convinced it is a switch issue.

Hopefully it works for you guys also.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Bryant Dunivan 

1)  Flipped program/Run switch fast back and forth about 30 times.

2) Assigned ID per instructions with the following EXCEPTION:  Don't cycle transformer power on and off during the assigning.  1) Transformer power off 2) Place engine on track with switch in program. 3) Assign ID - DON'T TURN POWER OFF ON TRANSFORMER 4) Flip switch to run mode. 5) Turn engine off with CAB.

From that point I was done with assigning and have had no problem whatsoever for 2 weeks.  I recommend giving that a try before giving up.  I am convinced it is a switch issue.

Hopefully it works for you guys also.

Great helpful post. I sure hope it helps others with this problem. 

Rod Miller

I tried Bryant's tricks.  Didn't work for me.  1. flipped program/run switch back and forth about 15 times (sorry, my figures got tired), 2. powered down the track, 3. put engine on track, 4. powered up the track, 5. Put PA in program mode, 6. Used the number already assigned to the engine and hit "set." As usually, it fires right up with great sounds.  Checked the front coupler, works fine.  7. Tried flipping the program/run switch back a forth a few times, 8. Turned Engine off with the CAB2. 8. Turned engine on again with the CAB2, 9. Works fine, until, 10. Turned engine off with CAB2, 11. Powered down the track, 12. Powered up the track, 13. Tried to power up the engine, dead as the dodo, as usual.  Last night I sent a message to Lionel's "TalktoUS" center.  Usually they respond by the next morning.  This time, no response.  I have never thought the PA was better looking than an EMD E (Nose too long, body too short for me) but these Lionel PAs do sound great.  But even the great sound is not enough to keep $1,700 worth of bad electronics.

Pennsyforever 

J Daddy posted:
When did the Antennas go to two wires and sticky taped to the shell?

Well, Lionel has has the sticky copper tape for an antenna for many, many years, maybe they're going back to their roots.   I've also seen quite a few locomotives with two wires for antennas.

pennsyforever posted:

I tried Bryant's tricks.  Didn't work for me.  1. flipped program/run switch back and forth about 15 times (sorry, my figures got tired), 2. powered down the track, 3. put engine on track, 4. powered up the track, 5. Put PA in program mode, 6. Used the number already assigned to the engine and hit "set." As usually, it fires right up with great sounds.  Checked the front coupler, works fine.  7. Tried flipping the program/run switch back a forth a few times, 8. Turned Engine off with the CAB2. 8. Turned engine on again with the CAB2, 9. Works fine, until, 10. Turned engine off with CAB2, 11. Powered down the track, 12. Powered up the track, 13. Tried to power up the engine, dead as the dodo, as usual.  Last night I sent a message to Lionel's "TalktoUS" center.  Usually they respond by the next morning.  This time, no response.  I have never thought the PA was better looking than an EMD E (Nose too long, body too short for me) but these Lionel PAs do sound great.  But even the great sound is not enough to keep $1,700 worth of bad electronics.

Pennsyforever 

Pennsy,   That’s interesting because I always felt the same way about E units versus PAs. To me the E8 is so much more elegant than the PA. Apropos of our discussion, I had to return last year’s Legacy E8 four times before I got one that I was satisfied with. It was an ordeal but in the end I have the engine I always wanted. As for the new Alcos, mine actually have many more problems than the ones the people on this thread have. The one problem I don’t have is addressing the engine because on my tiny layout I simply run it as factory setting engine one all the time. At one point I had four different threads running about all the problems with my set. Of course some of the problems were quite minor but I am not good at fixing anything so I always ask for help on the forum, Even though I have had to weather the occasional snide remark. It is well worth it for all the great advice you get. I have managed to reduce all the problems down to just two. In addition to the front coupler, which doesn’t bother me really, and I could fix if I could ever figure out a way to get that little white plug back in without pulling it right out when I put the truck back on, the only real issue left is that occasionally one unit or the other either loses power or signal and start a tug-of-war with its brother. Right now my guess is that it’s a signal loss problem and I will look into improving that situation. But the bottom line is I am keeping them because I know that if necessary Dean at Lionel will make it right. He got me through all the problems with the E8 and now it is my favorite engine and works perfectly all the time. So even though it is extremely frustrating and time-consuming and sometimes drives you crazy, to me it is worth it to have the engine that I want. Just my opinion. 

 

Norton posted:

All the radio boards used in RCMC have a two wire connector for the antenna.  Its used on steam engines which have a wire for each handrail eliminating the wire nut. Not sure its needed on plastic engines but it can't hurt.

 

Pete

Correct. However my point was does the two wire connection need to have a closed circuit so the locomotive will "see" the TMCC signal. On previous board designs it is not needed and this was usually one wire in previous command diesels. 

Holding On!!!  Dear Jamesrx, just because of your good experience with Dean at Lionel, I am going to hang on.  I have a Lionel E8 and have never had a problem with it.  After one day of working with four new PAs, here is the situation: 1. Started with voiced and powered A unit not holding its programing when track power is cut.  This problem remains.  2. One PB unit was also not holding its programing when track power was cut but started working as specified.  I did nothing to it, it just started working.  3. Second PB always worked as specified.  4. Powered, non-voiced PA unit has always worked as specified.   So overall, I have three of four units working as specified.  5. I hear no difference between the PA versus PB (super bass) sounds in terms of volume or sound quality (horn, engine, crew talk). 6. The PA/PB sound volume and quality is noticeably better than the 2018 Lionel E8 or TMCC.  So far, in my experience, the only sound that could rival these new PAs/PBs, if the vision line GG1, but I have not done a side by side comparison.  I would like to know the experiences of others.

Pennsyforever 

1. Started with voiced and powered A unit not holding its programing when track power is cut.  This problem remains.

2. One PB unit was also not holding its programing when track power was cut but started working as specified.  I did nothing to it, it just started working.

3. Second PB always worked as specified.

4. Powered, non-voiced PA unit has always worked as specified.  

Pennsyforever- 

Can I clarify a few observations on what you are seeing?

1. Are you saying the lead A unit with sound will not take a unique program ID number and reverts back to 1 every time the power is turned off?

2. Can you confirm this one is taking commands? Or is it just starting up in conventional? Can you change the ID or program?

3. Worked as specified? can program to new ID and will retain new ID and functions properly in command?

4. Worked as specified means; can program to new ID and will retain new ID and functions properly in command?

I would like to compare observations that I am seeing as well.

J Daddy posted:
Norton posted:

All the radio boards used in RCMC have a two wire connector for the antenna.  Its used on steam engines which have a wire for each handrail eliminating the wire nut. Not sure its needed on plastic engines but it can't hurt.

 

Pete

Correct. However my point was does the two wire connection need to have a closed circuit so the locomotive will "see" the TMCC signal. On previous board designs it is not needed and this was usually one wire in previous command diesels. 

One wire could break and the antenna would still be functional. The two contacts on the board are wired together. One wire to either or both contacts is sufficient. I am assuming the factory has wired all the antenna connectors with two wires so they can be used for either steam or diesel and then just tie them together on the diesels.

I just opened my RS11 which also has Alzheimers. It too has two wires soldered to the antenna plate. 

Pete

Dear J DADDY:

1. The lead A unit with sound takes a unique program ID number and works fine, until the power is turned off.  If the power is turned off, I cannot tell you what it reverts to.  All I know is that it will not take a command with the ID assigned.  So I start all over again by reprograming it.

2. Once the track power is cut, the lead A unit with sound will not start up at all if power is returned, until it is reprogramed.  I don't run conventional so I can't tell you what it would do in conventional.

3. The two PB units and the non-voiced A unit are working with the original IDs I programed them with.  I have not tried to program new IDs.  If it aint broke, don't fix has been my approach.  That is, I can power down the track and power up, and they (PBs and non-voiced A) take full commands.

4. One of the PBs with acting like the lead A unit, but the problem went away yesterday on its own.  Since that time, it has been working perfectly.

5. Also, I have not tried them in a lash up.

Pennsyforever

Norton posted:
J Daddy posted:
Norton posted:

All the radio boards used in RCMC have a two wire connector for the antenna.  Its used on steam engines which have a wire for each handrail eliminating the wire nut. Not sure its needed on plastic engines but it can't hurt.

 

Pete

Correct. However my point was does the two wire connection need to have a closed circuit so the locomotive will "see" the TMCC signal. On previous board designs it is not needed and this was usually one wire in previous command diesels. 

One wire could break and the antenna would still be functional. The two contacts on the board are wired together. One wire to either or both contacts is sufficient. I am assuming the factory has wired all the antenna connectors with two wires so they can be used for either steam or diesel and then just tie them together on the diesels.

I just opened my RS11 which also has Alzheimers. It too has two wires soldered to the antenna plate. 

Pete

Thanks Pete.  Than I think what happened to mine was the antenna plate lost its adhesive to the shell and grounded the signal out on the frame . When it was sitting loose inside the unit . 

pennsyforever posted:

Dear J DADDY:

1. The lead A unit with sound takes a unique program ID number and works fine, until the power is turned off.  If the power is turned off, I cannot tell you what it reverts to.  All I know is that it will not take a command with the ID assigned.  So I start all over again by reprograming it.

2. Once the track power is cut, the lead A unit with sound will not start up at all if power is returned, until it is reprogramed.  I don't run conventional so I can't tell you what it would do in conventional.

3. The two PB units and the non-voiced A unit are working with the original IDs I programed them with.  I have not tried to program new IDs.  If it aint broke, don't fix has been my approach.  That is, I can power down the track and power up, and they (PBs and non-voiced A) take full commands.

4. One of the PBs with acting like the lead A unit, but the problem went away yesterday on its own.  Since that time, it has been working perfectly.

5. Also, I have not tried them in a lash up.

Pennsyforever

Pop the lids and see if your antenna is floating around in the housing. 

pennsyforever posted:

Got up this morning, powered the track, Lead A unit fired right up with everything working!!!!  Can't explain it, but nice to have it working.  Next, will try a lash up.

Pennsyforever

Is this with the new ID number or ID #1? 

Pete

Matt, my lead A unit stopped working as mysteriously as it started working.  Both B units and the A unit w/o voice, are working.  There is no way around this, we need a serious fix from Lionel.  Unfortunately, Lionel is not responding to any of my inquiries.

Pennsyforever

pennsyforever posted:

Matt, my lead A unit stopped working as mysteriously as it started working.  Both B units and the A unit w/o voice, are working.  There is no way around this, we need a serious fix from Lionel.  Unfortunately, Lionel is not responding to any of my inquiries.

Pennsyforever

Lionel won't be issuing RAs for at least a couple more weeks. Everyone is going to have sit tight for a while before this problem is addressed.

Pete

This is the response from my retailer—

We have been in communication with Lionel regard this problem.  It appears that the
main board has to be "reflashed" to correct the problem.  Lionel is handling this
directly, they will issue a call tag to pick it up, fix it and return it to you at
no cost to you, you should call their Customer Service and they will arrange this
for you.  They may be closed for the 4th of July holiday so you may not get them
until the 8th
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Thud......., that’s the sound of a white towel being thrown in the ring.   Just like Matt, it happened to me last night and I reprogrammed a both A units to get it running.  I hope shipping is kind when Lionel fixes it.  They are beautiful locomotives. 

Yeah I’m ready to go for the return trip to North Carolina too, but dreading what could happen to these beauties in shipping. A large part of the appeal for me is the physical appearance and that’s what often takes the hit in shipping. But mine have so many more  problems than the rest of you guys that I really need to bite the bullet.

pennsyforever posted:

This is the response from my retailer—

We have been in communication with Lionel regard this problem.  It appears that the
main board has to be "reflashed" to correct the problem.  Lionel is handling this
directly, they will issue a call tag to pick it up, fix it and return it to you at
no cost to you, you should call their Customer Service and they will arrange this
for you.  They may be closed for the 4th of July holiday so you may not get them
until the 8th

Boy that’s going to be one busy email account come July 8th. 

Good luck to everyone here on getting a successful resolution.

pennsyforever posted:

Matt, my lead A unit stopped working as mysteriously as it started working.  Both B units and the A unit w/o voice, are working.  There is no way around this, we need a serious fix from Lionel.  Unfortunately, Lionel is not responding to any of my inquiries.

Pennsyforever

Pennsy Lionel is in the process of moving their entire service department from one building to another. I’ve been speaking to Dean about it...big job but they are almost there. Be patient and he will make this right.

Ok so I was on vacation when my Santa Fe's arrived and I read some of the problems while out of town. I was about to order a set of UP when I started reading this information. Now I am afraid to open my Santa Fe. Is it ALL PA's that are having a problem and "All" will need to be sent back or is it random?

Home of the Texarkana & East Texas Railroad (Cotton Belt,

Texas & Pacific, MoPac, KCS, and T&NO)

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, if it's really programming as Dave stated, I suspect all of them would have the flaw.

I agree with John.  By the nature of the process "Garbage in, Garbage out".   Programming is great when right (100%).  Not so great when wrong (100%).

Let's hope the Challengers are fine.  There will be a lot of ALCOs on Big L Workbenches.  I understand from Steve Nelson, Challengers have shipped and on their way to him.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

I was informed to call back after the 8th as when I described the issues which was a couple of weeks ago now this was considered new issues with these new units.   Have the NYC set and the second A unit cab lights lit and could control smoke levels from remote but that was it.   Just boxed it back up and send back when I get the RA.  

They are fantastic looking and the one working unit sounds & works great but does not look so great by itself.

Was going to get the B unit and thought of another but will wait and see how this works out.

I don't know if  believe that the issues with these are just programming. After cleaning the contacts on my run/prgm switch my faulty A unit has been 100%. Powered up/down several times and also let it sit several days and then turned it back on and have had no issues with it remembering who it is. Hopefully it stays this way. Even if it does need a reflash, I won't be sending mine in unless it quits again.

Surefire posted:

I don't know if  believe that the issues with these are just programming. After cleaning the contacts on my run/prgm switch my faulty A unit has been 100%. Powered up/down several times and also let it sit several days and then turned it back on and have had no issues with it remembering who it is. Hopefully it stays this way. Even if it does need a reflash, I won't be sending mine in unless it quits again.

That is correct. Testing quite a few of these now and there seems to be 3 or 4 failure modes. Flashing the chip is only one of them.

Well I am in the barrel too. just unpacked my santa fe units. first impression, beautiful looking units. powered up the B unit, seems to work fine. sound is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! powered up lead A unit. worked fine until first power shut down. upon powering up, it had lost id memory. reprogramed and worked fine with the exception of loud clicking noise while running. shut down again, lost memory upon start up again. repacked unit to send back to lionel. how can lionel make any profit on these, if they have to have them all back for rework. imho not a great way to run a business.

Had the same clicking noise. Bachmann contact lube quieted it temporarily...new rollers eliminated it. Looks like they had a bad batch of rollers when they made these. Two of the rollers on one of mine didn’t roll at all....excellent track cleaners!!

J Daddy posted:
Norton posted:
J Daddy posted:
Norton posted:

All the radio boards used in RCMC have a two wire connector for the antenna.  Its used on steam engines which have a wire for each handrail eliminating the wire nut. Not sure its needed on plastic engines but it can't hurt.

 

Pete

Correct. However my point was does the two wire connection need to have a closed circuit so the locomotive will "see" the TMCC signal. On previous board designs it is not needed and this was usually one wire in previous command diesels. 

One wire could break and the antenna would still be functional. The two contacts on the board are wired together. One wire to either or both contacts is sufficient. I am assuming the factory has wired all the antenna connectors with two wires so they can be used for either steam or diesel and then just tie them together on the diesels.

I just opened my RS11 which also has Alzheimers. It too has two wires soldered to the antenna plate. 

Pete

Thanks Pete.  Than I think what happened to mine was the antenna plate lost its adhesive to the shell and grounded the signal out on the frame . When it was sitting loose inside the unit . 

I just realized from your post that all my stalling problems could be from signal loss due to antenna issue. You mentioned yours was loose inside the frame. Did things improve after the fix? 

The stalling started with one A unit, then started in the other. Definitely looks like signal loss. All my other engines run fine on same track. Could it be my plates also came loose? Of course I would have to take off the shell to know, and I’m probably not going to (not a good mechanic at all!), but just for fun could you show me which screws hold the shell on?

Dave Olson posted:

These will need to come into Service to be reprogrammed. Service should start accepting repairs again sometime in July once the move is finished.

@Dave Olson

I started another thread thinking it was just my units, not knowing this was just the latest widespread defective offering.  So, my apologies, it didn't need another thread as it sounds like you're on top of this - thank you.   

Want to document  my issue here for your reference, Dave:  my issue is a little different - I programmed the "lead" unit first via Legacy and that went as it should. But the other A unit and the B unit do not allow me to program them at all.  I've only tried operating them for a few minutes so far, so maybe the rest of these reported  issues are present too - I just dont know yet.  

There are posts from non-Lionel people reporting what they say are Lionel responses, but would you be so kind as to please provide one comprehensive post that spells it all out?  Meaning, that these will be issued an RMA with no cost to your customers for shipping? And how and when this might take place?  

Many thanks,

Peter

Here are my observations:

1) Some units cannot program and they start up in neutral conventional - root cause was the antenna falling off the top of the shell and grounding on the frame

2) Some units cannot program start up in command mode -switch wire to main mother board was not engaged into its connector

3) Some units cannot retain their program when power is shut off and revert back to ID no. 1 : This is a software issue and they must be sent back to Lionel for a reflash

4) Some units making a loud ticking sound: The sensor on the reader board is hitting the flywheel ring. It will eventually ground the ring down and the locomotive will take off or run erratic. - I pulled the flywheel and gently pried the sensors apart to provide spacing for the flywheel ring. My E6's has the same issue. 

5) Some units cannot program ID at all - Bad program / run switch

You may see additional failure modes. This is what I have found so far.

 

PJB posted:

Oh, forgot to mention - there's also a clicking noise as it is in motion.  

A lot of these sets have bad pick up rollers.  A little oil helps temporarily, but I replaced mine and it eliminated the clicking completely.  I recommend when everyone sends them in for repair to mention the need for replacement rollers. 

I tried one more time before packing everything back up. The trailing A unit still is totally nonresponsive when trying to program it.  The B unit allowed me to "add" it (I get the whistle blast) but then when switched to RUN, it 100% does not accept any Legacy commands, including starting up.  It sits there dead. 

Dave- again, this isn't you - it's a Lionel QC issue.  You are incredibly responsive and I am grateful. I don't expect you to reply to this, but until a few years ago, every locomotive I bought from L was perfect.  In the past few years, every single locomotive, Legacy and Vision, I've purchased requires immediate service due to an operating defect. Started with one of my N&W Pocahontas sets with the aluminum passenger cars. The locomotive had jittery non-smooth operation.  Sorry to say that even after 2 trips back to L for service it remains that way.  Knowing they have an obvious QC issue, is L making any attempt to implement a QC control check (e.g. bump up testing to say 10% instead of 1% or whatever your actual numbers are - if L even does this) so they catch this stuff before the headache is passed along to the customer?  I know speed to market matters for revenue recognition, but a delay in RR must be superior to a dwindling customer base as people get turned off and decide to take their business elsewhere?   Thanks for listening.  

 

Apparently, the problem is with the TMCC receiver that plugs into the RCMC.  Of course, since Lionel started soldering the TMCC receiver on, now you have to return the entire locomotive since it's not possible to remove the little TMCC receiver for programming!

wow, what a fiasco. why is lionel having such problems that 3rd rail and mth do not? is it they use a different mfg? and how long can lionel last with these kind of losses along with lost customers ? sounds like manufacturing rules the roost, with qc having very little influence. 

Hate to say it, but IF this issue is really that widespread, this is like amateur hour.   I mean we aren't talking about Chinese knock-off Rolexes here. We're talking about very pricey toys from what's supposed to be a premier brand name.  My hope is that this serves as the needed wake up call. 

Since it's the TMCC receiver or the RCMC that's common to virtually all the current Legacy stuff, it would seem pretty logical that they all got programmed wrong!  So, you're going to be singing this song until they round them all up and get them reprogrammed!  Too bad we can't fix this in the field.  It's spanned a number of widely divergent models, so my sense is that it's the TMCC receiver that has the problem.  That's also likely the board that remembers the TMCC ID.

Curiously, I don't see how that one is programmed, no program pins or connector.  Since it's soldered on now, it'll be a major PITA if they have to replace those with new boards!  Before the soldering, it would have been just pop the new board on the RCMC.

Attachments

Photos (1)

I am not convinced they are all wrong. Only time will tell. My 3 unit set is doing fine. Also another colleague has the Santa Fe A-B-A and he is reporting no issues with his ( as far as holding the new ID's).

My latest issue was the antenna...I was able to re-stick the antenna to the top of the shell and everything was fine. 

Begs the question - if smoke fluid wicks inside the shell …it will be only a bit of time and the double sided sticky tape will fail again.

What I find to be odd is that I have had two different sets, both of which had the same issue, yet no one else here has reported any similar issue with theirs. My main problem has been the motor stalling upon, or a few seconds after, slow-speed startup. I have gone through a number of theories, but have proven them all wrong. At first it was suggested that the O36 curves were too tight for the engines to manage a slow-speed startup. But then it started happening on straights tracks too. Then it seemed very likely that it was a loss of signal issue. I got some great advice on that from Ameen on this forum, and learned a lot about Wi-Fi as well! After changing the channels on both my Wi-Fi router and the Legacy base all seemed well again. But a couple of days later the problem came back with a vengeance. Keep in mind that none of my other Legacy engines have ever had this problem even once after years of running, and they're still not experiencing this problem when I test them out now. So here I have experience with four different Alco PA A units experiencing, with increasing frequency, engine lock up during slow speed start up, and yet no one else seems to have had this problem. I am glad no one else is getting this aggravation, but it still seems odd.  By the way, once the engines get running even at very slow speed the problem never happens. They can run all day at speed step one without stopping if they get past the initial startup.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since it's the TMCC receiver or the RCMC that's common to virtually all the current Legacy stuff, it would seem pretty logical that they all got programmed wrong!  So, you're going to be singing this song until they round them all up and get them reprogrammed!  Too bad we can't fix this in the field.  It's spanned a number of widely divergent models, so my sense is that it's the TMCC receiver that has the problem.  That's also likely the board that remembers the TMCC ID.

Curiously, I don't see how that one is programmed, no program pins or connector.  Since it's soldered on now, it'll be a major PITA if they have to replace those with new boards!  Before the soldering, it would have been just pop the new board on the RCMC.

WRONG.  The receiver board does not have any programming.  

jon

Lionel LLC (2006-2017)

SuperChiefer84 posted:

Jon, if the TMCC receiver board is not the issue (no programming) then the RCMC board must be where the engine ID is stored or should be stored correct?

Wouldn't it make sense for Lionel to have a backdoor something or other that they can access for programming.  If it were to leak, I'm sure the high tech guys here would be able to take advantage of it.  If not re-programming, are we talking about throwing away the boards and replacing?  I would love to see the production numbers on this set.  at 5 minutes per train, it will be a while in the process.  I'm glad I can run some other stuff during their absence.  

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

What’s a shame is that items like these, ones with known defects, will continue to be sold to uninformed hobbyists by all the dealers with no mention of the defect.

Happens all the time.

They should all be recalled, repaired, tested, and then returned to the dealers.

Buyer beware.

Craignor posted:

What’s a shame is that items like these, ones with known defects, will continue to be sold to uninformed hobbyists by all the dealers with no mention of the defect.

Happens all the time.

They should all be recalled, repaired, tested, and then returned to the dealers.

Buyer beware.

You are correct. I just checked and at least 3 major online hobby shops are still in stock and offering them. 

Went to my LHS today, and they were unaware of the issue until I told them. They tested their Alco's and RS11's while I was there and both had the issue. They were packing them up and sending them back.

Shame too, because I was going pick up a BN RS-11 but will hold off now. With that said I was able to see the Halloween one in action, and I was blown away by the sounds, really cool!

Just got off the phone with Lionel Service.  We were going through the RMA generation and was told to hold a minute.  The young man came back on and told me they would be getting back to me to arrange the RMA.  He told me he never heard the issue we are experiencing.  My gut is that they are working on a protocol for the repairs.  I think the quantity will be pretty high.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

tangoman posted:

just called lionel. they are not taking any warranty work on these engines at this time. said to call back in a week. grrrrr not happy. 

I did better than you.  My Lionel guy said he would call back when they are ready.

 

Do you really think he will call back?  Let's see.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

I'm a little surprised to hear that, considering that Dave was on this  thread weeks ago explaining what they were going to do to fix them. And since I sent my original set back to Concord for a refund about 3 weeks ago I know they have a set to work out the fix on. I guess Bryant is right...they need time to set up a protocol.

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

pennsyforever posted:

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

J Daddy posted:
pennsyforever posted:

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Having been one of the original posters on this topic with my NYC locos, I could not help myself.  I just ordered the UP version also.  I told my dealer that the packing should be good because it is most likely going to Concord after I receive them.  They are beautiful engines and will be a nice diesel puller when not using my new Challenger, which is being delayed as we speak.

Am I nuts?  Yes.  I have 2 complete Acela sets running flawlessly on my layout.  Who can top that in returning for punishment.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"Awesome Treksgiving dinner with Captain Kirk"

 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
J Daddy posted:
pennsyforever posted:

I emailed Katie on June 27 about the problem, so I know they are fully aware of the issue.  Given that Lionel is usually quite fast about warranty repair, it says to me this recall will be very big.  Still, returning my set to my retailer is out of the questions since I think Lionel will come up with a fix and the Railsounds is the best I have ever heard.  One wonders how something like this could slip through quality control, assuming there is a quality control

Pennsyforever

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Having been one of the original posters on this topic with my NYC locos, I could not help myself.  I just ordered the UP version also.  I told my dealer that the packing should be good because it is most likely going to Concord after I receive them.  They are beautiful engines and will be a nice diesel puller when not using my new Challenger, which is being delayed as we speak.

Am I nuts?  Yes.  I have 2 complete Acela sets running flawlessly on my layout.  Who can top that in returning for punishment.

Good for you Bryant!! I'm on my 3rd NYC set after returning the first 2 which were no good. Even after 2 disasters I still got another because the good outweighs the bad. Taking your advice (thank you) I ordered my new set from Steve at MrMuffins and the third time was the charm. This set has none of the serious issues the first 2 had and I am enjoying the heck out of running them! Thanks again Bryant and Steve!

BNSF-Matt posted:

@JamesRx Glad to see you have a working set now. Even though this ID issue is a bummer, the set gets an A+ in every other category for me. I will wait it out and see what options Lionel has for folks. 

Thanks so much Matt! I have spent so many hours close up with these engines that I know Every tiny imperfection, including many that a normal person would never notice! But even with all that, and I am a bit of a perfectionist, I still would not trade them because what’s great about them outweighs all the flaws. I don’t know anything about market share in the O gauge train market but I would venture to say that if Lionell could get control of their quality issues they would rule the market because no other trains in this price range have the realism in terms of look and sound that Lionel has. They obviously put a great deal of effort into the design, but just can’t get the QC we are looking for and I’m sure that’s just economics.

Well, i got 4 sets of these.  I tested all of them in engine #1 and they all worked great.  I seldom program until I run them...  too many legacy engines all with similar cab numbers.

I programmed my Santa Fe last night as train #4 shut it down and restarted it worked fine.  I will try again tonite...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:

Well, i got 4 sets of these.  I tested all of them in engine #1 and they all worked great.  I seldom program until I run them...  too many legacy engines all with similar cab numbers.

I programmed my Santa Fe last night as train #4 shut it down and restarted it worked fine.  I will try again tonite...

Just FYI.  Shutting down does not seem to be the issue.  It seems to rear its ugly head if you kill transformer power to the track.  I have learned to park my ALCOs in the front of the layout until I get them sent back.  At this point I hope the UPs I ordered are fine.  I really don't care if they have to go back also.  Kind of "part of the practice".  I have many other trains to play with until then.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
Super O Bob posted:

Well, i got 4 sets of these.  I tested all of them in engine #1 and they all worked great.  I seldom program until I run them...  too many legacy engines all with similar cab numbers.

I programmed my Santa Fe last night as train #4 shut it down and restarted it worked fine.  I will try again tonite...

Just FYI.  Shutting down does not seem to be the issue.  It seems to rear its ugly head if you kill transformer power to the track.  I have learned to park my ALCOs in the front of the layout until I get them sent back.  At this point I hope the UPs I ordered are fine.  I really don't care if they have to go back also.  Kind of "part of the practice".  I have many other trains to play with until then.

Thanks for heads up.  I just kill power to the transformer...  so will see if it keeps the memory, but otherwise, i could run as engine 1 and seems to be no issue...  

Someone said its on the ac9 also?  I have to test mine...  still running that as engine 1!

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

J Daddy posted:
MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

Ryan only went to the museum and Smokey Bones. If he attended the show I didn't see him. Lionel had no booth in April. 

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"Awesome Treksgiving dinner with Captain Kirk"

 

Super O Bob posted:
Someone said its on the ac9 also?  I have to test mine...  still running that as engine 1!

Well, regarding the AC9, I have been following this thread and being thankful I did not order any Alcos but I have not seen a reference here to the AC9s having an ID issue. HOWEVER, I have two and one of them will not take a change in the engine number from 1 so I have run it as that ever since. Figured it was a RUN/PGM switch issue but have not had time to have a look at it.

In my case, the engine just does not respond to being put in PGM mode and having a new ID set. 

This may or may not be the same thing as the board issues referred to above. But it is very annoying as I waited until AFTER these BTO engines were issued and got favorable reports on this forum before I got them.

BTW, my other AC9 has no slow speed control although every other feature works. That one's not going back to Lionel  but to an independent service tech. 

J Daddy posted:
MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

That was Ryan.  Maybe you didnt recognize him.  He is working on that beard.  Maybe he likes civil war reinacting, i know he digs 19th century steam!

He was at the Wed TCA museum...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

J Daddy posted:

Hey Bob - try actually changing the engine ID to a new number.  Some are fine . Some are not 

Yup did that.  I tested my Santa Fe, PRR, NYC, and SP.  All of them worked, took new numbers and kept them.  Then on the 4th test of my Santa Fe, the lead A unit defaulted back to engine1, but the trailing A unit kept its number.  So maybe this is intermittant?  I will test them all again tomorrow and see if they all work.

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Hancock52 posted:
Super O Bob posted:
Someone said its on the ac9 also?  I have to test mine...  still running that as engine 1!

Well, regarding the AC9, I have been following this thread and being thankful I did not order any Alcos but I have not seen a reference here to the AC9s having an ID issue. HOWEVER, I have two and one of them will not take a change in the engine number from 1 so I have run it as that ever since. Figured it was a RUN/PGM switch issue but have not had time to have a look at it.

In my case, the engine just does not respond to being put in PGM mode and having a new ID set. 

This may or may not be the same thing as the board issues referred to above. But it is very annoying as I waited until AFTER these BTO engines were issued and got favorable reports on this forum before I got them.

BTW, my other AC9 has no slow speed control although every other feature works. That one's not going back to Lionel  but to an independent service tech. 

I have two legacy AC9's.  I just tested both.  3805 and 3811.  Both work perfect.  I have had the 3805 for about a year?  Since it came out.  Its seen alot of action on my layout.  Its kept its number 5.  The daylight 3811, i just got last month.  I just test programmed it to number 11 and it holds its number.  These are great engines...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:
J Daddy posted:
MartyE posted:
J Daddy posted:

I agree with you.  I will look for a set  of Santa Fe s at York. I'm just going to hand them over to Dave to fix when I see him there. 

Good luck.  Dave and Dean didn't attend last fall and Lionel not at all in the spring.  If Lionel continues to focus on other shows I doubt we'll see any technical folks at York for some time.

WHAT ?  Then who did I see at the TCA museum.  And at smokey bones last April? Ryan always supports us.

That was Ryan.  Maybe you didnt recognize him.  He is working on that beard.  Maybe he likes civil war reinacting, i know he digs 19th century steam!

He was at the Wed TCA museum...

LOL...  you mean I ate and drank for 2 hours with the wrong person? !!! 

All kidding aside Ryan will be at York this October and Lionel will have a booth.  

It will be interesting to see if the PA's at the show will have been returned and repaired and ready to go...

Super O Bob posted:
J Daddy posted:

Hey Bob - try actually changing the engine ID to a new number.  Some are fine . Some are not 

Yup did that.  I tested my Santa Fe, PRR, NYC, and SP.  All of them worked, took new numbers and kept them.  Then on the 4th test of my Santa Fe, the lead A unit defaulted back to engine1, but the trailing A unit kept its number.  So maybe this is intermittant?  I will test them all again tomorrow and see if they all work.

Yep, had the same issue here. Tested all of Tom's stock at GL's and it was usually the A units. about 50 percent. 

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

I have two new PAs sets (Rio Grande and UP) arriving today from Nick Smith...  so will test them too...  so far only intermittant issue found (one time) on the Santa Fe lead A unit.  Tested same engine again thismorning and it worked fine.  Programmed a new number and it held it for several power cycles....  will test more today...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

They are gonna need a bigger building and a larger staff to get all these units turned around plus the normal defective units.

BobbyD posted:
Super O Bob posted:

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

They are gonna need a bigger building and a larger staff to get all these units turned around plus the normal defective units.

Larger building, yes.  larger staff, no way.  As a manufacturer in a mature market (Geezers from Caesars that we are) with declining sales (assuming less buyers each year) labor is the 1st thing that is looked at to be chopped.  I think we will see things get through the QA process as this happens.  In reality, we will probably have to handle some defects or fixes on our own.  When a company is held by outside investors, there is less empathy toward the customer and most attention paid to profits.  Fact of life.  We see this in my industry (Industrial Laundry Equipment Manufacturing) and the results have been similar.

Hopefully the move logistically will be smoother and efficient for them.  By description the department was spread out with the older system and facility.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Exactly right Bryant.  as I mentioned in a previous post, I work for a major player in healthcare service and whenever the stock price goes down the first thing they look to cut is Staffing. Payroll is the one thing they have control over in our Market and I'm sure it's the same for many other Industries. As you said, fact of life. But that fact will inevitably lead to a decline in customer service.

Geezers from Caesars that we are) with declining sales (assuming less buyers each year) 
 
That's funny!  Havent heard that one!
 
Lionel has said they have had some very strong performance in recent year(s)...  the starter sets carry them.  Several guys in my office have kids that built great layouts and love Lionel...  so there is a future...  might be smaller but it will be there....

 

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

BNSF-Matt posted:

My UP ABA held the ID for about a week with about a 10-12 power cycles before it reset. It's seem pretty random, which is kind of strange for an EEPROM if that's what's holding the ID number.

Thats about what i got.  I have 4 sets, all work fine, then one did it last night.

Actually, i build lashups so often, it only takes me a few seconds cause of the easy access switch hatches, i could reprogram if and when it happens...  if its that intermittant

 

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

JamesRx posted:

Exactly right Bryant.  as I mentioned in a previous post, I work for a major player in healthcare service and whenever the stock price goes down the first thing they look to cut is Staffing. Payroll is the one thing they have control over in our Market and I'm sure it's the same for many other Industries. As you said, fact of life. But that fact will inevitably lead to a decline in customer service.

The operative word is inevitability at the end of your post.  It wont get better unless sales increase.  Cost of sales percentage has probably been on an incline and all they can do is try to mitigate it by cutting costs.  We have a phrase "you can cut cost to save expense, but you cannot cut costs to attain profitability.

 

If a major manufacturer of toy trains tried to sell their business, what would outside investors say when they studied this industry.  How would you value your business with respect to earnings and what would you say 5top entice a buyer.  I'm glad I have no desire to buy a train company, but it would be interesting tor part of executive management to deal with the challenges.  Certainly the products would be very interesting.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Super O Bob posted:
BNSF-Matt posted:

My UP ABA held the ID for about a week with about a 10-12 power cycles before it reset. It's seem pretty random, which is kind of strange for an EEPROM if that's what's holding the ID number.

Thats about what i got.  I have 4 sets, all work fine, then one did it last night.

Actually, i build lashups so often, it only takes me a few seconds cause of the easy access switch hatches, i could reprogram if and when it happens...  if its that intermittant

 

Bob,

Just make sure you power down the layout where the engine is accessible to re-address.  I made the mistake before learning this problem, of parking my engines at the back of the layout.  After 2 times of crawling, never again.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Byant...  thanks, yes i pull master power down...  but just tested at front of layout.

I am a fan of folded dogbone layouts so all trackage is in reach.  After 3 rectangle layouts, my last 2 have been folded dogbone so i can reach and see everything!

 

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:
Geezers from Caesars that we are) with declining sales (assuming less buyers each year) 
 
That's funny!  Havent heard that one!
 
Lionel has said they have had some very strong performance in recent year(s)...  the starter sets carry them.  Several guys in my office have kids that built great layouts and love Lionel...  so there is a future...  might be smaller but it will be there....

 

I'm a contributor to trying to grow this hobby.  So far my 3 & 5 year old grandchildren are drinking the Kool-Ade.  

I plan to buy then their 1st set at Christmas time.  They get pretty excited when they come visit.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Folks, try to use the shutdown (5 key or dedicated power off ICON on the cab-2) on the remote for the locos before turning off the AC power.  This may stop the ID loss from happening.  Worth a try as a temporary solution...

jon

Lionel LLC (2006-2017)

SantaFeFan posted:

Folks, try to use the shutdown (5 key or dedicated power off ICON on the cab-2) on the remote for the locos before turning off the AC power.  This may stop the ID loss from happening.  Worth a try as a temporary solution...

Awesome Jon!  I will try that...  thanks!

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Got my NYC AA successfully up and running after issues with trying tips previously noted.  Only issue now is lead A front lamp/light not working when lashed up but works solo.  Same with second A unit in reverse. Also works solo.  Work got into the way so ran out of time figuring out light issue. 

Super O Bob posted:

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

I have two new PAs sets (Rio Grande and UP) arriving today from Nick Smith...  so will test them too...  so far only intermittant issue found (one time) on the Santa Fe lead A unit.  Tested same engine again thismorning and it worked fine.  Programmed a new number and it held it for several power cycles....  will test more today...

Bad news Bob. Talking to our colleagues in the club.  After 4 weeks of working they are now forgetting their set id's.  I would plan on marching them all back.

J Daddy posted:
Super O Bob posted:

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

I have two new PAs sets (Rio Grande and UP) arriving today from Nick Smith...  so will test them too...  so far only intermittant issue found (one time) on the Santa Fe lead A unit.  Tested same engine again thismorning and it worked fine.  Programmed a new number and it held it for several power cycles....  will test more today...

Bad news Bob. Talking to our colleagues in the club.  After 4 weeks of working they are now forgetting their set id's.  I would plan on marching them all back.

The UP did have the issue with just the Lead A unit.  Trailing A unit had kept number.

Just tested the new RIO GRANDE (looks great) and it is perfect.  So had issue on 2 of the 6 new PA sets.  I will keep testing them, see if they go bad.  

I tested Dr ZW Jon Z's suggestion and shut down aux5.  But it didnt help...

 

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Super O Bob posted:
J Daddy posted:
Super O Bob posted:

Yea, they moved service...  to a new building....  i am waiting till august as well to send in my PA.

I have two new PAs sets (Rio Grande and UP) arriving today from Nick Smith...  so will test them too...  so far only intermittant issue found (one time) on the Santa Fe lead A unit.  Tested same engine again thismorning and it worked fine.  Programmed a new number and it held it for several power cycles....  will test more today...

Bad news Bob. Talking to our colleagues in the club.  After 4 weeks of working they are now forgetting their set id's.  I would plan on marching them all back.

The UP did have the issue with just the Lead A unit.  Trailing A unit had kept number.

Just tested the new RIO GRANDE (looks great) and it is perfect.  So had issue on 2 of the 6 new PA sets.  I will keep testing them, see if they go bad.  

I tested Dr ZW Jon Z's suggestion and shut down aux5.  But it didnt help...

 

Sorry it didn't, was worth a try.  There is less "activity" in the software  in the loco when shutdown, so I was hoping it wold help.   Appreciate the update on the testing of the idea.

jon

Lionel LLC (2006-2017)

Super O Bob posted:
Blue Streak posted:

Bob,

Thanks. Would like to see the Rio Grande next to the UP as I am deciding between the two. 

Gotcha covered!

Ok...  here are some quick pics.  The Rio Grande is all in stainless paint and looks fantastic.  The UP you can get two issues in legacy already and probably more in future, but your choice!

20190712_195456

20190712_195442

20190712_195612

20190712_195619

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

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Photos (4)
Blue Streak posted:

Thanks Bob! The Rio Grande does look good. When you say Issues with the UP are you talking the ID issue or ?

Yes, it just forgets the id on the lead A unit a few times.  Otherwise perfect in decoration, sounds, operation, etc...  i will just run it with id #1, its no problem then.

It takes me 8 seconds to reprogram the number, so its not a big deal to me...  

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
RKLIMAS posted:

Just wondering if anyone has called Lionel and received an RA number.  If so, is Lionel providing a return shipping label?

I just got off the phone with Katie at Lionel.  She is sending me an email with labels to return 2 sets.

Great news!  Glad Lionel has stepped up and provided shipping labels.

Robert

LIRR Steamer posted:

thinking about getting one of these sets. Am I correct in assuming that if you make no changes to the factory default setting of 1, it will not be a problem in calling them up in legacy multiple times without the engine s forgetting this id? 

Thanks 

Correct.  My set runs fine as engine 1. No issues after 3 months of running.

LIRR Steamer posted:

thinking about getting one of these sets. Am I correct in assuming that if you make no changes to the factory default setting of 1, it will not be a problem in calling them up in legacy multiple times without the engine s forgetting this id? 

Thanks 

If you’re getting it from a dealer why not have them get it updated first by Lionel. 

Rod Miller

I have to get around to sending in two sets.  Honestly been waiting for my other 4csets to go bad.  Still working fine.  My rio grande has not forgotten its id.  Still works as train#6.  

I have encountered the issue on my UP, and SF only.  Lead A unit (the one with sounds) defaults back to engine 1 after power is cycled.

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

I called today as I just received my SP last week which is having same issue.  Even the b unit this time.  While on the call I asked about my NYC AA I sent in about a month ago.  Still in line waiting for repair.  Got the RA but probably not ship it right away  

I asked if they are recalling those that have yet to be delivered as I have not received the UP and stated I really don’t want the set if all I have to do is return it right away.  They are not, so calling dealer to discuss canceling   Not sure but it’s Not like there isn’t choices when it comes to UP

But all in all been running the SP ABA and horn and color scheme is Outstanding    Catalog pics do not do it justice   

 

I sent mine is when service reopened to correct the loosing ID problem.  Got them back quickly but then they had the "no response to creating an ID at all" problem - other than #1 and 99.  That was not acceptable, so back in they went.  Still there.  Looks like others are having the same second problem.

PeterA posted:

I sent mine is when service reopened to correct the loosing ID problem.  Got them back quickly but then they had the "no response to creating an ID at all" problem - other than #1 and 99.  That was not acceptable, so back in they went.  Still there.  Looks like others are having the same second problem.

I'm surprised they flipped them without fixing them for you.  It was a pretty hot conversation when they were released.  I spoke with Aaron and Katy pretty quickly upon receiving them.  They were certainly aware of the problem.  Looks like you go under their radar.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Bryant, the only thing I can guess is that they tested them on loco #99 which, as was explained to me, is the universal number for Legacy locomotives.  And of course #1 and 99 work fine!  She actually sent me an attempted fix through my CAB 2 to use when setting the loco ID, but it didn't work.  Thus, I got my second RA.

jjwyatt posted:

But all in all been running the SP ABA and horn and color scheme is Outstanding    Catalog pics do not do it justice   

 

I agree...  i think the holloween scheme SP is fantastic looking!  20190712_210536

I use it to pull a string of the SP overnights box cars!  All black train is cool!

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

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Photos (1)
PeterA posted:

Bryant, the only thing I can guess is that they tested them on loco #99 which, as was explained to me, is the universal number for Legacy locomotives.  And of course #1 and 99 work fine!  She actually sent me an attempted fix through my CAB 2 to use when setting the loco ID, but it didn't work.  Thus, I got my second RA.

Still waiting on our first... 

Like the idea of the overnights.  I recently found a set of the surfliner cars but have yet to find a matching F59 so figured why not run them with the SPs.  Two eras collide 

Pardon the moving camera as was using remote with other hand. 

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Videos (1)
82880F79-3777-474B-A668-633BEF5F066C
jjwyatt posted:

Like the idea of the overnights.  I recently found a set of the surfliner cars but have yet to find a matching F59 so figured why not run them with the SPs.  Two eras collide

I like that idea too and I am always in favor of fantasy excursion trains. Nice job and thanks for the video.

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