Lionel Legacy Power & Wiring Questions

Believe a Powerhouse is a transformer, a Powermaster takes inputted power and contols output voltage to the track.

Toggles should work for your siding power on/off.

The PowerHouse is indeed a 180W transformer.  The PowerMaster is a control box that will allow you to use command control to vary track power for conventional locomotive operation.  The PowerMaster still requires a transformer input for powering the track.

@BobbyD is correct.  PowerHouse is a fixed 18V AC output transformer.  The Legacy PowerMaster receives commands from the Legacy Base (sent from a Cab2 remote).  Powermaster can either pass that Voltage straight thru in Command mode or provide a variable  AC voltage output in Conventional mode, controlled by the Legacy Cab2.

@VJandP  One more thing of note in the 3-rail electrical lexicon, there is a distinction between insulated and isolated.  When it comes to electrically separating track blocks, you'd be wanting isolation (an electrical gap in the center rail power).

Insulated rails typically refer to separation of the ground between two outside rails on a track section, and is often used in operating accessories.  In that Insulated track section, there is also a gap in one of the outside rails at each end of that insulated section.  When the metal train wheels/axles enter that section they complete the ground circuit to the accessory.

Vin,

Everyone above is correct so far.  Here's more detail.

1.) Track Connections -- Assuming you're intending to control the conventional locos on the two loops independently, and by using a CAB-x handheld, you'll need two PowerMasters, or the non-Lionel equivalent of them from back in the day, IC Controls' TPCs.  Since Lionel later bought the rights the TPC design from IC Controls there are also Lionel TPCs available on the used market.  For your layout you could use the same make and model on both loops for sake of convenience.  On the other hand if you want to be frugal you can use two different ones of either type, and even mix types, assuming you can used ones at a good discount.  Each one will need to be set up with an independent address or ID# as part of firing everything up.

2.) Power Source -- A PowerMaster or TPC is a only a throttle.  It needs an AC power source to provide power to it, which it then controls and feeds to the track to run the train.  This source can be of many types.  One is a PowerHouse, like a PH-180, or the older and less powerful PH-135, which are fixed AC power supplies of approximately 18 VAC.  Another could be an old-fashioned transformer like a KW or ZW, with its handle turned all the way up, or nearly so, to get the 18 VAC.

3.) Handheld Controller -- It also needs a handheld controller (CAB-1, 1L, or 2) from which to receive the instructions for control.  CAB-1 only works with Base-1; CAB-1L works with Base-1L or Base-2; CAB-2 works with Base-2.

4.)Operating Conventional Equipment -- With this setup when you put a conventional locomotive on either loop use the CAB-x's knob to vary the voltage to the track and run the train just like you would by using the lever on a old-fashioned transformer, but now in the palm of your hand.  Just make sure that you select the proper PowerMaster or TPC device by entering it's Address/ID No. on the CAB-x before attempting to control it.

5.)Operating Command-Control Equipment -- Because command locomotives run on fixed voltage, and not variable, with this setup when you put a command control locomotive on either loop you must first issue a command to your PowerMaster, or TPC, on that loop to go to full voltage output for that loop, one way is by turning the knob on the CAB-x to maximum, and you're ready to run it.  You'll run it by next selecting the engine, by pushing the ENG button on the CAB-x and then typing the ID Number for that engine.  Afterward the knob will control its speed and not the PowerMaster/TPC (until you reselect it).

6.) Sidings -- Your suggestion of using toggle switches for the sidings will be OK.  These switches simply need to connect the siding's center rail to that of the loop track to which they connect.  Turn one on to pull a train into or out of a siding.  Turn it off once fully in, or fully out.  Be sure to remove the track pin for the center rail at the point the siding connects to its loop.

7.) Power Protection -- Fuses, Circuit Breakers, or Electronic Overload Protection.  This is big topic with several threads on this forum dedicated to it.

See, for example:

    Airpax Snapac Hydraulic-Magnetic Circuit Breaker Internal Mechanisms - Updated 5/12/2021 | SteveH

    or

    ZW to PowerMaster to PSX1-AC to legacy BPC2 to track | RMMorrow

All seven steps above work for either TMCC or Legacy or both, but using a CAB-2, instead of a CAB-1 or 1L, in Step 3 works best for Legacy.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

Mike

@VJandP  Regarding your SCARM track plan:

1) Uploading the actual SCARM file to this topic would be helpful to see more detail and for others to make suggestions.

2) I noticed in your plan that the track appears to be FasTrack and that none of the switches have 1-3/8" isolated sections attached.  These isolated sections have removable jumpers underneath that allow you to create isolated track sections when removed.  They come in three varieties: 1) Full Roadbed (roadbed on both sides, 2) Half-roadbed (roadbed on only one side), and No Roadbed.  O-60 and O-72 switches each come with two 1-3/8" half roadbed sections and one 1-3/8" no roadbed section.  The way FasTrack O-60 and O-72 switches are made at their diverging ends, they either require these pieces or to cut off part of the roadbed from the adjoining track.  [EDIT SCARM doesn't autocratically include these isolated pieces when adding O-60 and O-72 switches to the plan.  It relies on you to add them or not.] Even though O31, O36, and O48 switches don't have this 1-3/8" requirement, using the full roadbed isolated sections, allows easy isolation of the connected block(s).

Here's what the O-72 looks like with one of the half-roadbed pieces removed. The Blue circle is the jumper that can be removed to isolate adjacent track sections.

Just a thought, but you might want to also consider a Lionel ZW-L transformer.  It's similar to having 4 powerhouse 180s and 4 powermasters, but all in one unit.  Lots of flexibility for both conventional and command control, powering accessories, etc. Might be nice if you plan to expand from your original plan above (thinking of the 2006 25x15 layout you mentioned).

I can't begin to describe all it's features so the manual is attached below.

@rtr12 posted:

Just a thought, but you might want to also consider a Lionel ZW-L transformer.  It's similar to having 4 powerhouse 180s and 4 powermasters, but all in one unit.  Lots of flexibility for both conventional and command control, powering accessories, etc. Might be nice if you plan to expand from your original plan above (thinking of the 2006 25x15 layout you mentioned).

I can't begin to describe all it's features so the manual is attached below.

I strongly recommend the ZW-L as well.  Formidable transformer ... and more.

To demonstrate the use of 1-3/8" isolation pieces (and to play with the new version of SCARM a bit) I took the liberty of re-creating your basic plan including these.

I also thought you may want to consider using O60 curves instead of O48 on the lower passing siding since the rest of the outer loop is O72.  This substitution takes up essentially the same space and would allow you to run trains with a minimum O-54 curve spec on that siding.

The SCARM file and image are attached.

All - Thank you so much for the responses.  I understand more after reading through this thread than I did after all the reading and videos over the past months.

@SteveH - Thank you for the multiple, detailed responses and in particular reworking the track plan to include the insulated pieces. You guessed correctly it's Fastrack and that also that I wanted to leave my options open for larger engines.  Just to pull the edge of the layout in an inch or two, I purposely used 048.  But you're right, there are engines that are 054 min and the 060 would allow me to consider those and be able to park them on the siding. I was going to attach the SCARM file to my upcoming post in the layout section but see it would have added some value here.  As I've seen in other threads .. Rule #1 .. attach your files!!!  I'm going to rework my track plan and will share it.

@Mellow Hudson Mike - Your post is a mini-Wikipedia.  The break down of the difference pieces is fantastic.  Thank you!

@rtr12 Going for the big guns ZW might not be a bad idea.  It might be a little overkill for this layout, but I would grow into when I can build my future layout.  Thank you for the link to the manual.

The hobby has changed so much in the past 10 years.  I have a lot to learn.

I appreciate all the responses and will take everything into consideration for my next steps.  I'm going to rework the track plan, reconsider my wants and priorities for this "temporary layout" (2 - 3 years), and take a stab at choosing some equipment - which I'll post here before I do anything. 

- Vin

FYI - I had been tinkering with my track plan and decided to add a reversing loop and a few more sidings.  This is my latest file and does NOT reflect what I learned tonight.  I'll be working on the updates over the next few days to share.

As an FYI, I'm not concerned with scenery or prototypical operations on this layout.  My goal with this layout is specifically to learn about Lionel Legacy.  I thought I'd spend the next couple of years working with these new systems and all the accessories so once the opportunity comes to build my next layout, I'll have these basics down.   

Look for an upcoming thread in the Layout Forum. I'm anxious to share my past layouts, what I'm doing today, and what my future goals are.

Thanks!

- Vin

Vin, I appreciate your thoughtful replies and thank you's.  The reversing loop is a good addition to include in your plan.

And by the way, a hearty Welcome to the Forum!

It looks like you can only reverse direction once from CCW travel and that's it.  None from CW travel.

John

@Craftech posted:

It looks like you can only reverse direction once from CCW travel and that's it.  None from CW travel.

John

Good point John.  I would point out that sometimes in limited space with other requirements (yard), having only one reversing loop is a trade-off.

In which case, one can back the locomotive thru the "reverse" to change the orientation of the locomotive.  Whether the rest of the train needs to be disconnected first depends on the length of that train and weights of the cars, among other things.

Good call out on the single reverse loop.   As I mentioned, this layout is more about learning how to use the Legacy system with all it's accessories and add ons.  I'm not 100% concerned with prototypical operations or having to pick up the occasional engine.  There's block controllers and all sorts of things I want to learn about and sort out if I'll need them when I get to my next layout.  I thought it would be easier to learn on a smaller layout.

@SteveH - Quick question about the 072 and 060 turn outs ....  Is that small extension required ALWAYS when using these particular turn outs or only when an insulated extension is needed?

Thanks!

- Vin

On the subject of uncoupling, one of the great advantages of Legacy, TMCC, LionChief Plus and LC 2.0 locomotives is that they typically have electrocouplers that can be operated from their respective handheld remotes.  For Conventional locomotives and most cars though, they need to be uncoupled either by hand, or with electromagnets in a 5" Uncoupling track (6-12020) or 10" Operating Track (6-12054).  You may want to consider including some of those in strategic locations throughout your track plan.

@VJandP posted:

@SteveH - Quick question about the 072 and 060 turn outs ....  Is that small extension required ALWAYS when using these particular turn outs or only when an insulated extension is needed?

Thanks!

- Vin

It may be required to duplicate a full curved track section of that radius.

Not including either the Half Roadbed or the No roadbed pieces means that you'd need to cut off part of the roadbed from the normal piece that would go in its place at the divergent end of the switch.  Maybe this picture will help make this clearer.

@BobbyD posted:

It may be required to duplicate a full curved track section of that radius.

It does with O36 switches, they need the 1/4 curve to equal the whole curve (45 degree) piece.  That's not the case but with O60 and O72 switches.  Their curved side has the same 22.5 degree arc as their full curve counterparts.  The 1-3/8" isolated sections are completely straight.

@SteveH posted:

Not including either the Half Roadbed or the No roadbed pieces means that you'd need to cut off part of the roadbed from the normal piece that would go in its place at the divergent end of the switch.  Maybe this picture will help make this clearer.

Well daaaaaamn ….  I’ve seen that little piece between the tracks in pictures and wasn’t sure what that was about.  This totally helps.  Thank you!