Hi All,

Hoping someone either has a Lionel Made K-Line NYC K28701H Diesel Unit or has some service documentation to help me out fixing this unit. Took this out of the box which looks brand new and could certainly pass for brand new unit, Tried it conventional and it ran forward, with whistle blowing with a great tone. I switch it over to command control and the lights and exhaust fans work but that was it. So I opened the unit up to try and find the culprit. Low and behold I see this red wire end hanging in mid air. Since it didn't look like an antenna, and the end had some solder on it, I did a little happy dance inside thinking I would easily see where it was supposed to be soldered. NO SUCH LUCK Blah!  At any rate I search for some documentation online and I came up empty. I found a lot of information out, like Lionel actually made this for K-Line (I know I have been under a model railroading rock for 40 years) How ever I still haven't had any luck in service info. I have included photos of the wire and where the other end is attached, If anyone could sneak a peek into their unit, and finds where the other end goes, that would be fantastic. Or if anyone has schematic or knows where this wire should be attached that would be great! ANY HELP is more than appreciated.

Thanks in Advance to all.

John

ps looking through a magnifying glass it appears the end was a cold solder joint. Important to use good soldering techniques.RS Power Board K-LineCold Solder Joint K-Line copy

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

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1. Those were made by K-Line, not Lionel. (K-Line by Lionel came later.) But Lionel did indeed make the electronics.

2. They are TMCC-upgradeable, but they do NOT have TMCC.

3. That is indeed the antenna wire, which was likely soldered to a metal strip attached to the roof. It was factory-installed so that adding the R2LC board for TMCC was more of a "plug and play" operation.

I hope this helps.

TRW

PaperTRW posted:

1. Those were made by K-Line, not Lionel. (K-Line by Lionel came later.) But Lionel did indeed make the electronics.

2. They are TMCC-upgradeable, but they do NOT have TMCC.

3. That is indeed the antenna wire, which was likely soldered to a metal strip attached to the roof. It was factory-installed so that adding the R2LC board for TMCC was more of a "plug and play" operation.

I hope this helps.

TRW

Thanks TRW for the info!

3)So much for guessing it was not an antenna wire. LOL

2) how do I go about upgrading to TMCC ?

Why does it have the run/program switch and an RS/SS switch? Also where could I get service schematics or documentation to at least show me what plugs into what?

Again THANKS!

 

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

Aegis21 posted:

2) how do I go about upgrading to TMCC ?

Why does it have the run/program switch and an RS/SS switch?

 

You'll need the R2LC-C08 board to enable the TMCC capability, it replaces the reverse board in the right hand socket.  The RUN/PGM switch is the reverse lockout for conventional operation, when you upgrade it, it'll be indeed the RUN/PGM switch.  The RS/SS switch won't do anything right now as you have a Signal Sounds board.  If you replace that board with the RailSounds board and add the generic RailSounds Power Supply, you'll have full sounds.  Then the RS/SS switch will switch the sounds on/off, the horn and bell are always enabled.

Yes, and you'll have to hook up that antenna wire to the antenna it apparently broke off from.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Aegis21 posted:

2) how do I go about upgrading to TMCC ?

Why does it have the run/program switch and an RS/SS switch?

 

You'll need the R2LC-C08 board to enable the TMCC capability, it replaces the reverse board in the right hand socket.  The RUN/PGM switch is the reverse lockout for conventional operation, when you upgrade it, it'll be indeed the RUN/PGM switch.  The RS/SS switch won't do anything right now as you have a Signal Sounds board.  If you replace that board with the RailSounds board and add the generic RailSounds Power Supply, you'll have full sounds.  Then the RS/SS switch will switch the sounds on/off, the horn and bell are always enabled.

Yes, and you'll have to hook up that antenna wire to the antenna it apparently broke off from.

Thanks for all this information! So I need to purchase a R2LC-C08 board and a Railsounds board and power supply. Ok next foolish question... where do I buy these at and are there some instructions with the upgrade?

And yes wjen scouring around the inside roof of the unit I did spy a metal strip with a burn mark which I now am assuming (ok I saw you roll your eyes!) is where the antenna wire was tacked on to with a cold solder joint.

I put all back together and with the switches in the position you suggested and TMCC off the engines ran so smooth it was incredible. I am not used to the new equipment. This huge puppy can really creep along smooth as silk. Of course that was on 4 feet of track which the diesel took up half.

Thanks in Advance

John

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

Since the Railsounds boards are long gone from Lionel, you'll have to shop around for a similar sounding locomotive for a RS4 or RS5 board.  The generic RS power supply and the R2LC-C08 are both still available from Lionel.  For the RS board, I'd look around for a locomotive that uses the same prime mover and similar horn.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since the Railsounds boards are long gone from Lionel, you'll have to shop around for a similar sounding locomotive for a RS4 or RS5 board.  The generic RS power supply and the R2LC-C08 are both still available from Lionel.  For the RS board, I'd look around for a locomotive that uses the same prime mover and similar horn.

First and foremost thank you Gunrunnerjohn for candid and honest answers. You are the messenger and even though I did not want this message, it is what it is, so to speak. However,  I have to say I am disappointed with Lionel for not being able to upgrade and run an engine on TMCC that was a Lionel electronics design/build. This task on finding a similar locomotive for an RS4 or RS5 board, to me, is foolish to say the least.

Gunrunnerjohn, could I just do the R2LC-C08 upgrade and have TMCC control and use the onboard signal sounds? Otherwise it does not make sense to keep this gorgeous diesel unit and the heavyweight passenger cars that go with it. 

I just finished putting in an ERR AC commander in a Lionel Berkshire 736 and it works beautifully! Talk about fitting 10 lbs. into a 1 ounce bag! I made some major casting renovations and my biggest obstacle was the antenna. (darn antenna wires) The casting just kills the signal to the antenna if left inside the unit. The point is that I took a a locomotive that is almost sixty years old and it now can run on TMCC with Railsounds. I do realize that this option is living on borrowed time as Lionel recently outsourced it to 3rd rail and parts maybe running out from suppliers. I have also done the same with an Illinois Central 2363 Diesel, which had a ton of room in comparison to the Bershire. So two engines that are almost 60 years old and can use the latest command system. Understanding that on the surface Lionel may have lost two sales for engines, however they would have sold the upgrades and with my new enthusiasm for the hobby would have a totally satisfied new consumer who would be in the market to expand his inventory and be purchasing new engines and rolling stock etc. Then have the effect of a new layout being seen by friends, family and "hooking" in others into the hobby is the ultimate marketing ploy. If I could not have the two engines of my childhood run on the latest systems with the new bells and whistles (literally speaking) the spark to reignite the hobby in my life might not have fueled the firebox and a loss for both myself and Lionel.

Sorry for the long winded post,  ok off the soap box and onto trains....

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

You can get it running first and then deal with the sound system after the running has been verified. That way, if any problems arise you will know what system has the troubles.

If you do everything at once and there are troubles, it may take longer to figure out.

RoyBoy

Good Advice for sure on getting it running first! However if there is no way to obtain a railsounds upgrade it sounds doomed before I begin. Like Mark has mentioned, maybe cheaper to sell these units and buy new working Legacy or DCS engine. Although this has to do almost more with viability than cost comparison.

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sure, just plop an R2LC into it and it should have TMCC capability.

Love the positive/optimistic attitude!  Plop and Should are definitley keywords hehehe so I can get this through Lionel? R2LC-C08 is the part I am looking for and do I also need the RS supply upfront or only if I scavenge a Railsounds board?

On Lionel site and they list this, what is it and do I need it?

691MB0019B

MOTHERBOARD / RAILSOUNDS 5.0 / RS PWR / R2LC

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

If you are going to install a RS4 or RS5 sound board, you need the generic RS power supply to power it.  If you leave the Signal Sounds board in, it'll work without any additional boards.

You don't need any motherboard for the RS4 or RS5 boards, you just need the 691RSPRA00 power supply and the RS audio board.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you are going to install a RS4 or RS5 sound board, you need the generic RS power supply to power it.  If you leave the Signal Sounds board in, it'll work without any additional boards.

You don't need any motherboard for the RS4 or RS5 boards, you just need the 691RSPRA00 power supply and the RS audio board.

Thanks a TON! For the 40 dollar cost I may try the  2RLC-C08 receiver board for TMCC and go from there, depending on results.

Again Thanks for all your help

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

Aegis21 posted:
 However,  I have to say I am disappointed with Lionel for not being able to upgrade and run an engine on TMCC that was a Lionel electronics design/build. This task on finding a similar locomotive for an RS4 or RS5 board, to me, is foolish to say the least.

Hold up. Let me get on MY soap box for a minute.

If I'm understanding things right, you've repeatedly taken Lionel to task in this thread for not stocking a specific board, that came in a third-party product, that uses obsolete technology, that was manufactured 15+ years ago.

Ya see where I'm going here?

It's important to have realistic expectations in this hobby, otherwise you're in for a lot of disappointment. Our hobby's manufacturers are far from perfect. Sure, it would be great if every conceivable part was available for every item ever produced for decades. But that's not a realistic expectation.

Now then...

Lionel still stocks hundreds of RailSounds 4 audio boards. You can find them here:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...;submitButton=Search

And wouldn't you know it, they do have the proper board in stock that you've been bashing them for not having:

691PCB114ERAILSOUNDS 4.0 / GENERIC E SERIES $45.00

As John pointed out above, they also have the R2LC and RailSounds power supply board that you'll need to complete your upgrade.

So to recap, the awful company that is Lionel still has all three boards in stock that you need to upgrade your K-Line product that uses an older technology standard and was manufactured over a decade ago.

I need to go now. I think I need a cookie.

TRW

PaperTRW posted:
Aegis21 posted:
 However,  I have to say I am disappointed with Lionel for not being able to upgrade and run an engine on TMCC that was a Lionel electronics design/build. This task on finding a similar locomotive for an RS4 or RS5 board, to me, is foolish to say the least.

Hold up. Let me get on MY soap box for a minute.

If I'm understanding things right, you've repeatedly taken Lionel to task in this thread for not stocking a specific board, that came in a third-party product, that uses obsolete technology, that was manufactured 15+ years ago.

Ya see where I'm going here?

It's important to have realistic expectations in this hobby, otherwise you're in for a lot of disappointment. Our hobby's manufacturers are far from perfect. Sure, it would be great if every conceivable part was available for every item ever produced for decades. But that's not a realistic expectation.

Now then...

Lionel still stocks hundreds of RailSounds 4 audio boards. You can find them here:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...;submitButton=Search

And wouldn't you know it, they do have the proper board in stock that you've been bashing them for not having:

691PCB114ERAILSOUNDS 4.0 / GENERIC E SERIES $45.00

As John pointed out above, they also have the R2LC and RailSounds power supply board that you'll need to complete your upgrade.

So to recap, the awful company that is Lionel still has all three boards in stock that you need to upgrade your K-Line product that uses an older technology standard and was manufactured over a decade ago.

I need to go now. I think I need a cookie.

TRW

First and foremost my apologies if I have offended you or anyone else on this forum with my pure ignorance of the hobby. Asking if there was a way to upgrade Lionel electronics that were in a K-line product was asked and the replies I have gotten were that a receiver board can still be had, however the railsounds board would have to be found from an old disposed of engine.  I did go onto Lionel's parts site and typed in 2RCL and a big list of boards came up and if it were not for the generous  help from this forum I would not have a clue which was the proper version/vintage/code number to order. I did submit a request for help from Lionel last week and have not heard back from them as of this writing.  My comments were not meant to bash Lionel, but to view things from a different marketing perspective.

You were able to find the Railsounds board, where I certainly did not have a clue where to go even look for the correct part number. I went on Lionel's parts site and 361 items came up. How would I know which one of those on that long list was the one I needed? Ignorance in this case is not bliss, and I admit to being ignorant of the current resources this hobby has available. If it were not for your gracious input I would not have a clue it existed. Thank you! You mention they have the Railsounds power supply. Would you know or could tell me how to find the proper supply for the board you recommended.  Again my ignorance is plane to see, but as you can see I am not bashful to ask for help. Is this the proper power supply?

691RSPRA00RAILSOUNDS POWER BOARD / UNIVERSAL $40.00

  A few years back (maybe 10) my mobility was cut down to almost none. This medical procedure was planned and to help pass my time and still be a bit productive I set up a work bench and my old Lionel trains from the late 50's early 60's The idea was to work on them to get rid of the dried up grease and fix any broken items that happened over the years of storage. A general complete overhaul so to speak. I did find a source for parts from dr. Tinker and Olsen I believe were the two that helped me out with any replacement parts I may have needed. I was truly AMAZED that I was able to obtain parts for trains that were almost 50 years old! I guess that experience spoiled me ( you are right my expectations are/were too high) and being in the electrical engineering field for the last 45 years I have seen the incredible advances. And those advances always could be made backward compatible. Was it too much to expect that the same product support Lionel had for the post war era trains would continue to modern times? Sounds like my hopes were too high and I had been spoiled.

In the future, I will leave personal opinion out of my posts so as not to offend anyone.

Again Sincerest Apologies to all.

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

Aegis21 posted:
 Is this the proper power supply?
691RSPRA00RAILSOUNDS POWER BOARD / UNIVERSAL $40.00

Yes. Here's the way your upgrade would work:

691R2LCC08R2LC / RADIO RECEIVER (C08 CODE) $40.00

The R2LC board will give you TMCC. You replace the daughter board shown in your first image with the R2LC. Make sure the antenna wire has been re-soldered to the metal strip on the roof, and you should be good-to-go. There's a chance you may need to reprogram the R2LC for the locomotive that you're putting it in. You can find the procedure here:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...oreTMCCfunctions.pdf

I don't recall if your locos have smoke units, but if they do, use the "8" code. If not, use "6."

The R2LC will interface just fine with the SignalSounds board found on the other end of the motherboard in your loco. You could stop here if you'd like.

To upgrade the sound system, you need these two boards:

691RSPRA00RAILSOUNDS POWER BOARD / UNIVERSAL $40.00
691PCB114ERAILSOUNDS 4.0 / GENERIC E SERIES $45.00

The Power Board goes into the empty slot currently found on your motherboard. The RS4 Audio Board replaces the SignalSounds board currently on the motherboard. They must be replaced as a pair. This will give you full RailSounds, with engine sounds, coupler sounds, horn, bell, and generic CrewTalk/TowerCom.

Lastly, I wasn't offended by your earlier comments, and I hope you weren't by mine. However, while there's a ton of great knowledge and insight shared on this forum, it's also full of negativity and jaded perspectives towards manufacturers and retailers -- much of it deserved, other times maybe not so much.

This hobby isn't where it was in the 1950's, and the vast majority of people here would likely say that's a good thing. But with the technological advancements, customized detail, and extremely limited production runs there's a trade-off -- the high cost, and the inability to have repair parts available for everything. Your trains from the 1950's and 1960's could be repaired because there were likely similar items produced for decades. Some of today's trains see production times measured in single-digit days, never to be manufactured again. Things like sharing of similar parts across models is many times seen as reducing accuracy of the model.

I could go on, but I don't want to belabor the point. There's still much to learn and enjoy in today's hobby, even though it's far from perfect.

TRW

 

TRW,

Thank you for this valuable information. I know without this forum and members like yourself helping me get back into the hobby, I would not be able to get these engines on the tracks. Which in turn would have me sell off my collection and go fishing. So thanks for keeping me in the hobby and providing your time and knowledge. 

Thanks

John

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

Just to update everyone that has provided so much assistance in my foolish quests.

Received an R2LC code 8 board from Lionel parts & service ( I just ordered it a couple of days ago, so that was REALLY fast service and shipping! kudos to Lionel) I almost plugged it into the RE power supply connector, however it was clearly marked as such so I looked around and found a board already plugged into the R2LC connector. I removed that board and installed (plugged in) the R2LC board from Lionel. I did not have a comfortable feeling without instructions to know if I was doing this correctly. However careless and foolish I was, I forged ahead. Following TRW's instructions I powered up the unit and tried the bell and whistle without response. Then went to the reset procedure and low and behold when I hit the set button the horn blew! WooHoo! Finishing up the procedure I was then able to have TMCC control of the engine! total success for sure! Thanks to all who shared their knowledge and wisdom  supporting this endeavor. Now I will go back to lionel and order a railsounds board and power supply for the next round. The funny thing is I may not keep this set as it is huge! Don't get me wrong it is a beautiful unit, it just make my post was Illinois Central look like it is HO scale!

Again Thanks to all who were VERY Patient with me.

John

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

It is technically a happy journey so far. When the Railsounds bd. & power supply, goes in without me letting out the blue smoke from any of the components, then it will be a happy ending!

But I am enjoying the journey for now.

Again thanks to you and gunrunnerjohn for all your help and good advice

John

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

Just an update on this project. This Saturday the railsounds generic board and railsounds power supply board arrived in the mail. Again very fast service from Lionel! I removed the signal sound board and inserted the Railsounds board and the power supply board into the clearly marked connectors. Ran the programming and yes it all worked. All the blue smoke stayed inside the componets and Railsounds are now part of this newly TMCC enabled engine! WooHoo! One thing I am not sure of and don't know if it really makes a difference in this case, is the aux1 programming number I used. Using this link

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...oreTMCCfunctions.pdf

graciously  provided by TRW I tried #5 and #6    I cannot tell any functions that work or do not as there wasn't an operators manual with proper function list. If anyone can guide me to which # I should program in would be greatly appreciated.

All in All a Happy ending!

Thanks again to All!

John

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

A vast majority of the time, I program most diesels with AUX1-8.  If they happen to have a command controlled strobe or cab light and no smoke, then either AUX1-5 or AUX1-6 is appropriate.

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gunrunnerjohn posted:

A vast majority of the time, I program most diesels with AUX1-8.  If they happen to have a command controlled strobe or cab light and no smoke, then either AUX1-5 or AUX1-6 is appropriate.

GunrunnerJohn,

Thanks for the info and help. I will try #8 and see if there is any difference. Will anything get damaged if I use the wrong number? That is a bit of fear I have when I was "trying" different numbers to program it.

Again Thanks

John

Trying to get to work on my railroad...

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