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Frank,

    Yes, I think if you move the mounts straight back 1/4" on each car, the cars will essentially move forward or together 1/2" (combined) and you will still have about the same reach with the #740 coupler on the curves, so it should work.  The cars are just too far apart and the only improvement is the look of the smaller couplers.  It will be worth the effort to move them 1/2" closer. 

I did take a look at mounting to the kinematic arm and it is possible by making a  mounting plate to hole the Kadee box and mount it to the kinematic mounting ring.  I'm still looking into it.  It may be the same amount of work.  It will move them very close however the kadee box will be floating under the body and not sure how that will look and work yet.  Its easy enough to try without damaging anything.  I doubt I'll get to it soon.

Pete,

  If I don't use the kinematic parts, I will probable still keep them in case I sell the cars.

Clem,

  You can not mount to the holes in the floor, the coupler would be too high so you need the mounting spacer.  I show the mounting spacer on its side in the pics of the underside.  The mounting spacer has two tabs that insert into the outer holes and the center is for the screw.  I don't see any other way to mount it.  Gotta run, I'll check back later.

TOTNPdomesandklinetrucks 035bgoose CWS17 072

 After staring at your pics for awhile.  Rich if you turned the supplied mounting pad around will that change the kadee position and draw the cars closer together?   The pins will still fit into the outside holes on the car and the coupler box, and visually it looks like you might lose the spacing.  Its free and worth a shot.

   Hancock52 not only is the interior undersized but so are all the underbody details. I was hoping for accuracy and the ability to use the details to mold some more for other cars but sadly no love for me.  I guess I will just have to keep faking my own split ac units.

 Josh,  love your work on the interiors but the baggage car has one split door and is for a looking not for baggage.   Imagine an entire DCI drumcorps hornline about 70 kids and instruments practicing in that car as it rolls west from Omaha toward Cheyenne.   Tight fit but been there done that.  And much praise and thanks to UP for providing me with the opportunity.  Not sure about the current remodel but there's an ac unit now.  79, 80, and 81 it was un airconditioned and no flag on the exterior those half doors and speed made things tolerable to practice a couple hours. Then give the drumline their turn and after that the colorguard.

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  • TOTNPdomesandklinetrucks 035
  • bgoose CWS17 072

My Atlas O California Zephyr cars look great, but I had to move the couplers out so far that they are no longer closely coupled.  Bill at Atlas O suggested making the gap bigger between cars because my Dome cars were derailing on O-72 curves when closely coupled.  

The Quest For Closely Coupled Cars may lead to Operational Issues: Derailments and Tipping Cars.

Inspect Your Passenger Cars.   I have received two 6-83042 "Katy Flyer" Coaches with manufacturing issues. 

The first car had marks around the logo.

The second replacement "Katy Flyer" arrived missing two horizontal grab irons on the non-viewed side if the car, hidden in the packaging from casual inspection by the dealer.

I am now buying my third set of 6-83042 UP Excursion passenger cars.  I will get a good car for detailing if I have to buy ten of them.

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  • DSCN4606: The 1st "Katy Flyer" arrived with marks around the Name.
  • DSCN4751: The 2nd "Katy Flyer" arrived missing two Grab Irons.
  • DSCN4752: This is what the car should look like.
jeremy ferrell posted:
Budkole posted:

No one mentioned they come with scale coupler mounting pads.  Ill bet the kadees will even tighten the gap even more.

Can someone post a picture of the factory truck coupler set up on these.   I’ve been modifying tricks and couplers a lot here lately this might be my next project 

I'm not sure that this will enlighten you much but this is the bottom view of the coupler assembly on one of the UP Excursion cars (the Overland diner):

IMG_4133

It consists of a plate holding in position another plate to which the coupler is attached. This is a less complicated version of the kinematic coupler assembly on the Acela cars and I think that in fact the coupler has less much travel than it does in that assembly.  The spring that draws the coupler back when it is not extended into one of the two arms of the "Y" shaped channel is connected to the truck mounting post just behind the wheels shown in the photo.

I reckon that at full extension the coupler is no more than 5/16" further out than when it is in the default position. On these cars that do not have full width diaphragms that is probably more extension than is really needed, at least when running on O-72 track.  

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I received the new UP & CSX 21” 2-pks, 4-pks & Station Sound cars this week.  The CSX 2-pk 6-683125 Cars have rubber door  diaphragms on each end of the 2 cars.   The remaining CSX & all the UP cars do not have the rubber diaphragms ??   Are all cars supposed to have the rubber diaphragms???    Can anyone answer?   (Also missing kadee conversion kits for one car)

 

John Rowlen posted:

Inspect Your Passenger Cars.   I have received two 6-83042 "Katy Flyer" Coaches with manufacturing issues. 

The first car had marks around the logo.

The second replacement "Katy Flyer" arrived missing two horizontal grab irons on the non-viewed side if the car, hidden in the packaging from casual inspection by the dealer.

I am now buying my third set of 6-83042 UP Excursion passenger cars.  I will get a good car for detailing if I have to buy ten of them.

Wow, very consistent poor quality with these cars. I would be beside myself.

W&W posted:

I received the new UP & CSX 21” 2-pks, 4-pks & Station Sound cars this week.  The CSX 2-pk 6-683125 Cars have rubber door  diaphragms on each end of the 2 cars.   The remaining CSX & all the UP cars do not have the rubber diaphragms ??   Are all cars supposed to have the rubber diaphragms???    Can anyone answer?   (Also missing kadee conversion kits for one car)

 

I can only answer for the UP cars, which do not have any rubber parts in the diaphragms; they model the prototypes which have something that looks more like a doorway frame than anything else. If by rubber door diaphragms you mean the full-width diaphragms like those on the ESE and SP cars, I don't understand why only two of the CSX cars have them. I guess, however, that it must be deliberate that the other cars come with something else as otherwise you'd have a gaping hole at each end of the cars!

Hancock52 posted:
W&W posted:

I received the new UP & CSX 21” 2-pks, 4-pks & Station Sound cars this week.  The CSX 2-pk 6-683125 Cars have rubber door  diaphragms on each end of the 2 cars.   The remaining CSX & all the UP cars do not have the rubber diaphragms ??   Are all cars supposed to have the rubber diaphragms???    Can anyone answer?   (Also missing kadee conversion kits for one car)

 

I can only answer for the UP cars, which do not have any rubber parts in the diaphragms; they model the prototypes which have something that looks more like a doorway frame than anything else. If by rubber door diaphragms you mean the full-width diaphragms like those on the ESE and SP cars, I don't understand why only two of the CSX cars have them. I guess, however, that it must be deliberate that the other cars come with something else as otherwise you'd have a gaping hole at each end of the cars!

The remaining CSX cars(4-pk, Station Sound Cars) do not have the diaphragms on each end of the Cars, they are like the UP cars.     I thought it was strange that the CSX 2-pk was different than the other cars.   I think the diaphragms look good, cars without have big gap between each car.  

 Maybe Ryan from Lionel can explain why.

Craignor posted:
John Rowlen posted:

Inspect Your Passenger Cars.   I have received two 6-83042 "Katy Flyer" Coaches with manufacturing issues. 

The first car had marks around the logo.

The second replacement "Katy Flyer" arrived missing two horizontal grab irons on the non-viewed side if the car, hidden in the packaging from casual inspection by the dealer.

I am now buying my third set of 6-83042 UP Excursion passenger cars.  I will get a good car for detailing if I have to buy ten of them.

Wow, very consistent poor quality with these cars. I would be beside myself.

Im not sure that its time to brand them as consistently poor quality. There were only 1 or 2 complaints so far, of the many that on here that have them.  Most often repetitive posts make it seem like a bigger issue than it really is.  At least thats the way I see it...but, Ive been wrong before.  

Mine are flawless.   Very pleased.

Budkole posted:

Rich, you think that if the coupler pad was custom mounted to sit further back and long shank drawbars are used...that would make it better?

 

The problem is, with these cars, GGD cars, or any other long passenger car is you HAVE TO have a big gap between the cars, even for 072 curves because the outsides of the cars hit each in the curves. This cause them to bind up and derail. There just isn't a way to body mount Kadees, close the gap, AND keep he cars on the track. They have to have a decent gap.

That's why after I did my GGD Daylight set, 3 different times, I stopped converting passenger cars. It just wasn't worth the time and hassle for me.

With the cars this close, it was a NO GO through the curves.

IMG_0001

 

 

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Laidoffsick posted:
Budkole posted:

Rich, you think that if the coupler pad was custom mounted to sit further back and long shank drawbars are used...that would make it better?

 

The problem is, with these cars, GGD cars, or any other long passenger car is you HAVE TO have a big gap between the cars, even for 072 curves because the outsides of the cars hit each in the curves. This cause them to bind up and derail. There just isn't a way to body mount Kadees, close the gap, AND keep he cars on the track. They have to have a decent gap.

That's why after I did my GGD Daylight set, 3 different times, I stopped converting passenger cars. It just wasn't worth the time and hassle for me.

With the cars this close, it was a NO GO through the curves.

IMG_0001

 

 

Agree 100%.  I run 096 and if too close on curves, bad things happen.

Hancock52 posted:
jeremy ferrell posted:
Budkole posted:

No one mentioned they come with scale coupler mounting pads.  Ill bet the kadees will even tighten the gap even more.

Can someone post a picture of the factory truck coupler set up on these.   I’ve been modifying tricks and couplers a lot here lately this might be my next project 

I'm not sure that this will enlighten you much but this is the bottom view of the coupler assembly on one of the UP Excursion cars (the Overland diner):

IMG_4133

It consists of a plate holding in position another plate to which the coupler is attached. This is a less complicated version of the kinematic coupler assembly on the Acela cars and I think that in fact the coupler has less much travel than it does in that assembly.  The spring that draws the coupler back when it is not extended into one of the two arms of the "Y" shaped channel is connected to the truck mounting post just behind the wheels shown in the photo.

I reckon that at full extension the coupler is no more than 5/16" further out than when it is in the default position. On these cars that do not have full width diaphragms that is probably more extension than is really needed, at least when running on O-72 track.  

This is helpful thank you.   I think my first move will be to see if any of the other kenimatic  applications could be possible replacements.  I think the 86ft box cars use something similar along with the new auto racks.  A long shot I’m sure but you gotta start somewhere.   I will also closely inspect the assembly once mine arrive to see if the couplers themselves could somehow be shortened.  I really think if all else fails the scale couplers will acomplish what I’m looking for.  But I will exhaust all options before going that route.  I think the problem with these is the full width diaphram cars almost need a different coupler than the standard diaphram version.  But thats probably asking for a lot.   The full width cars need more Tavel from what I’ve read. However that would have made These cars look all the worse.   It’s like they settled for the middle.   Makes sense and I get it.     I like the design in the sense that these can be used on smaller curves and appeal to more operators but in reality I whish they were designed with 072 minimum in mind.  I think for the majority of us that Would make life much much easier.  No complaints here though.  fun part of this hobby is making whats  available work and perform to your own preferences.  I wish everyone saw it that way.  This is a Good Thread.   Thanks to all the contributors. 

Laidoffsick posted

...  The problem is, with these cars, GGD cars, or any other long passenger car is you HAVE TO have a big gap between the cars, even for 072 curves because the outsides of the cars hit each in the curves. This cause them to bind up and derail. There just isn't a way to body mount Kadees, close the gap, AND keep he cars on the track. They have to have a decent gap.

...

Precisely... to avoid the gap between cars, you'd need EXTREMELY broad curve radii.  I'm thinking something in excess of O-120 and possibly even more than O-144.  If you want to run long passenger trains, the exaggerated gap -- especially noticeable around curves -- is a compromise we need to live with.  Just comes with the territory. 

I have O-102 curves on the outer mainline of my new layout, and my Atlas-O Zephyr cars look fine.  But even with that reasonably broad curve (by traditional O-Gauge standards), I just try not to focus on the gap between the cars.  But it's certainly there.

And by all means... if you have less than O-72 curves,  just pass on these 21" cars altogether and stick with 15" passenger cars. You'll be much happier that way.

David

Laidoffsick posted:

These cars run just fine like this:

20140622_14575820140622_145810

The difference??? Rubber diaphragms vs full width hard diaphragms, and truck mounted 3 rail couplers. That is why i just painted the diaphragms and left the couplers alone.

Pay attenetion to what Doug shows here. I would add make sure the diaphram buffer plates are hard plastic to allow them to slip side to side. Rubber to rubber won't allow the sliding action.

These F units will negotiate 042.

image

Pete

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I was informed this afternoon by Lionel Service that they will not be getting replacement body shells for passenger cars like they did in the first run.  The cars are out of their hands and at dealers.  There are no parts available like grab irons missing from my second replacement UP Excursion "Katy Flyer" Car.

If anyone would like to trade their perfect "Katy Flyer" passenger car for my car missing grab irons, please contact me.

I am not nuts, but I am checking to see if you are.  Want to trade?

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John Rowlen posted:

I was informed this afternoon by Lionel Service that they will not be getting replacement body shells for passenger cars like they did in the first run.  The cars are out of their hands and at dealers.  There are no parts available like grab irons missing from my second replacement UP Excursion "Katy Flyer" Car.

Making grab irons isn't hard. How did you scratch up the grey paint?

Did you try to determine what exactly that is on the car or clean it off?  BTW, nice fingerprints on the window!

Last edited by Big Jim

The first "Katy Flyer" 21" passenger car as pictured is exactly as it came out of the Lionel 4-pack box.  I have not changed its appearance at all.  (I wish I could remove the mark.)  The marks will not come off with soap and water.

The second "Katy Flyer" car from Legacy Station has missing grab irons on the side that was hidden by the white side of the packaging, and not exposed to view when it was sent to me. 

The first Amtrak Diner I received from Nicholas Smith had bowed end pieces and a gouge on the end of the roof. 

The second (replacement) from Nicholas Smith has the end Diaphragm Door Plate loosening as the coupler hits it as it rounds the O-72 curves.  (This might be why these plates are not on the Broadway Limited cars which is a good decision by Lionel's factory.)  (Nicholas Smith had to get another car from another Lionel dealer because the second Amtrak Dining car they had was not good either.)

My second Southern Pacific Observation arrived with a dangling truck and bent E-clip. (The first had broken window glass sticking out the rear window on the right side of the First Observation.)  The wiring is still screwed up and the Drum Head will not light.  I have not yet attempted to repair it because I was busy detailing the other cars.

My Union Pacific "Challenger" Dome Car arrived with a dangling truck and a loose E-clip inside. I was able to reattach the E-clip and I detailed the Dome with Preiser people that I painted. I will replace the silver Lionel E-clip with a tempered steel E-clip when I put Preiser People in the Lower Level.

I am waiting for the arrival of my Broadway Limited set and am encouraged by the good reviews so far. The Diaphragms without End Plates is a good idea.  The End plates can hit the couplers as the couplers pitch upward from pulling use over time.

Did you have a Lionel Warranty Card in your sets of new 21" passenger cars.  Did you have any Instructions?  Only my Station Sounds Dining Cars had Instruction Booklets.

I am not bashing Lionel as Dean in Service can tell you.  I have saved all email correspondence with Lionel for the 40 plus service trips on expensive Steam Engines, Modestly-priced Diesels, Sound Box Cars and Pennsylvania GLa Hopper Cars.  That does not include the many engines I have serviced myself after getting warranty parts from Lionel.  The more you buy, the more service issues you will have.  The only way to stop potential service issues is to stop buying.  (Pinched wires in large steam engines take time to soften the insulation and cause a short.  A casual testing at time of purchase will not reveal what time and heat will do.)

 

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Images (7)
  • DSCN4606: Unknown substance on "Katy Flyer" UP Coach.
  • DSCN4604: My first glimpse of the "Katy Flyer" I had camera ready after SP set experience.
  • DSCN4751: Undiscovered by dealer missing grab irons. Lionel has no parts.
  • DSCN4557: First Amtrak Dining Car with Broken Coupler, Rood Gouge, and Bowed Ends.
  • DSCN4761: Second Amtrak Dining Car with Diaphragms coming loose.
  • DSCN4442: Southern Pacific Observation new, out-of-the-box. Loose Truck.
  • DSCN4612: UP Excursion "Challenger" Dome Car with loose Truck.

Absolutely maddening.  After waiting so long for close to accurate UP lightweight cars,  I love the look of the car details, domes, observation, roofs, etc.  So much potential, Then to have all those issues, and at those prices.  I have to stay away. Maybe I'll wait and see what leftover defective returns come up on the secondary market and pick up steeply discounted set as a project.  Then I won't be bitter about all the work I'd have to put into something I just bought.  What a shame.

Last edited by WITZ 41
WITZ 41 posted:

Absolutely maddening.  After waiting so long for close to accurate UP lightweight cars,  I love the look of the car details, domes, observation, roofs, etc.  So much potential, Then to have all those issues, and at those prices.  I have to stay away. Maybe I'll wait and see what leftover defective returns come up on the secondary market and pick up steeply discounted set as a project.  Then I won't be bitter about all the work I'd have to put into something I just bought.  What a shame.

All what issues?  Or are you just speaking about John Rowlens' issues with his cars?

Last edited by Budkole
jeremy ferrell posted:
Hancock52 posted:
jeremy ferrell posted:
Budkole posted:

No one mentioned they come with scale coupler mounting pads.  Ill bet the kadees will even tighten the gap even more.

Can someone post a picture of the factory truck coupler set up on these.   I’ve been modifying tricks and couplers a lot here lately this might be my next project 

I'm not sure that this will enlighten you much but this is the bottom view of the coupler assembly on one of the UP Excursion cars (the Overland diner):

IMG_4133

It consists of a plate holding in position another plate to which the coupler is attached. This is a less complicated version of the kinematic coupler assembly on the Acela cars and I think that in fact the coupler has less much travel than it does in that assembly.  The spring that draws the coupler back when it is not extended into one of the two arms of the "Y" shaped channel is connected to the truck mounting post just behind the wheels shown in the photo.

I reckon that at full extension the coupler is no more than 5/16" further out than when it is in the default position. On these cars that do not have full width diaphragms that is probably more extension than is really needed, at least when running on O-72 track.  

This is helpful thank you.   I think my first move will be to see if any of the other kenimatic  applications could be possible replacements.  I think the 86ft box cars use something similar along with the new auto racks.  A long shot I’m sure but you gotta start somewhere.   I will also closely inspect the assembly once mine arrive to see if the couplers themselves could somehow be shortened.  I really think if all else fails the scale couplers will acomplish what I’m looking for.  But I will exhaust all options before going that route.  I think the problem with these is the full width diaphram cars almost need a different coupler than the standard diaphram version.  But thats probably asking for a lot.   The full width cars need more Tavel from what I’ve read. However that would have made These cars look all the worse.   It’s like they settled for the middle.   Makes sense and I get it.     I like the design in the sense that these can be used on smaller curves and appeal to more operators but in reality I whish they were designed with 072 minimum in mind.  I think for the majority of us that Would make life much much easier.  No complaints here though.  fun part of this hobby is making whats  available work and perform to your own preferences.  I wish everyone saw it that way.  This is a Good Thread.   Thanks to all the contributors. 

Well said!

jeremy ferrell posted:

Any chance of replacing the entire truck with the atlas adjustable trucks likes on their zephyr cars.    not the cheapest I'm sure but if you could make it work it'd give you adjustability.

Today I used your idea on the older aluminum mail car, it lowered it considerably and it now matches the rest of the excursion set.

That is not a fingerprint on the small window.  The glass has a gloss in the center of it that does not wipe off.  The image you are seeing is a distortion in the window manufacturing.

Legacy Station has told me to take parts of the first "Katy Flyer" with the spots on it.  I will remove two Grab irons for the second body shell and probably replace this small window.

I hope that everybody else has no difficulties, but I have encountered these issues for the number of times reported.  Lionel knows there are issues, and that is why they say to "send the cars back to the dealer for a refund if there are problems".   They are not bringing them into Lionel Service for warranty work.  They have no parts.  There are no Call Tags for these cars.  Then what do we do if we have the FEF3. the GS4, six VL Big Boys, two Vision Line GG1s, two Pennsylvania M1a, a Turbine, a K4 and E8s waiting for these cars?  We buy another set --- and the process may or may not bring us what we expect.  I wish Lionel well, and I repair items when I am able.

Most of us who have been running trains for 50 plus years are able to make minor repairs.  I am puzzled by the recent trend by a couple of manufacturers of not getting repair/replacement parts.  I know they will pull parts off of cars that are returned from dealers.  If so, they must be expecting returns in order to do so.

"I got a refund on my dead puppy" is not a good sales strategy.  Lionel is better than this.  It has been the standard of excellence that we collectors count on to maintain the value of our investment in toy trains.  I will do whatever I can to see Lionel's success, and as testament of that have purchased over 200K in Lionel and Atlas O in the past two and a half years. 

I think I just heard a pop-off valve release.  No more steam.  Have a good weekend.

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

PS:   "And this too shall pass."   Hopefully on the opposite track.

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  • DSCN4751: Silver image is in the manufacturing of the window glass.

I lucked out on my set. No QC issues.  The cars where undamaged and worked flawlessly. 

The packaging was a bit archaic with the 4 pack having no backs to the boxes. 

20180310_222639

But it's not about the boxes. 

The cars have nice window details and sit at a lower height than the previous release 

20180310_222702

So where are the diaphragms for these cars?

20180310_222716

The observation car is nice but needs a better interior. 

20180310_222741

The flag car is very cool 

20180310_225802

Love the theater light dimming in the cars. 

20180310_225820

What's up with the lack of roof details? 

 

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Here are some pics of my Kline 21 inch aluminium cars for comparison.  Lionel's set does have a refined look. On the outside. 

20180310_225235

 

20180310_225347

20180310_225413

I like the skirts on the kline cars better

 And the roof details 

20180310_225122

20180310_225201

20180310_225122

20180310_225146

20180310_225220

The kline trucks and couplers feel more robust. But their interiors need more help than the Lionel's cars.

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