Lionel O gauge Trains were expensive in the middle 1950s

I remember saving up my allowance to purchase my Gang Car, Barrel Loader and 623.  It took a while along with earnings from chores.

Probably explains why I got a Marx set for Christmas. But the ol' 1666 ran and kept me happy for a long time.

Jim K

That's why they weren't thrown away and years later found by many in attics or other storage and we have them now.

When I 1st started buying Lionel, 1983, I found a guy who had accumulated a whole garage full that he had bought at yard sales and otherwise bought from people and was now selling them. I got a 1946 Berkshire from him.

When you factor in inflation. Current trains aren't much different in price. Think about how hard it was was to save up $75 for a 700e back in the 1937.

  Yes, they were.  I was given a Lionel Scout set in 1951. I was aware the couplers on my set didn't seem to match the couplers of any of the newer cars that showed up in each year's Lionel catalog but I was patient - I figured sooner or later they would offer another car to go with my set.  Finally, in 1955 I saw the #3620 searchlight car and, correct coupler or not, I wanted it.  The catalog and hobby shop price was $7.95,  My allowance was 25 cents a week...so I started saving.  For 8 months I did no buy a thing - I just saved my quarters. 

  When I reached $8.00 I asked Dad to take me down to the hobby shop to get the car.  We got to the hobby shop, I made my request, the owner pulled one out of the box and set it on the counter.  I was reaching into my pocket to pull out all my quarters when Dad said, " But the couplers on this car don't match the couplers on your train."  Dad said I looked him straight in the eye and said in a very slow and determined voice, "I-Don't-Care!" 

  Dad told me many years later it was at that moment he realized I was really serious about my trains.  He covered the sales tax (I was almost heartbroken when that was added to the cost and I didn't have the money to cover it) and that Christmas, Santa gave me an unasked for and totally unexpected gift in the form of a #1615 engine and tender whose couplers matched everything in the Lionel catalog...as for #3620...

it still runs just fine...so does #1615.

I was fortunate. My dad (a fireman in Hoboken) bought me a set pulled with a steamer (221), and a few freight cars just before I was born, then a 2035 set with a few more. By the time I was somewhat conscious, we had a full blown layout of an oval with a passing siding (in looking at old films, I’d say 5 x9 foot). The siding included the milk car platform, the cattle car platform, #97 coal elevator, magnetic crane, and the requisite cars. There was a #38 water tank, and block signal. On the outer loop were crossing gates, an oil derrick, flashing cross bucks, and the giant gateman. There were two houses in the one Road Town, and green painted sawdust for grass. He also made a tunnel from paper and wire and varnish, then painted. Oh, and a revolving beacon. My current layout with a few exceptions is very similar. My dad kept the layout hanging on pegs in the warm months, and set it up around Thanksgiving, and took it down around February.
The layout had to be broken up when we moved to a small apartment, but I kept the trains running on a 4x8 I set up in I and my brother’s bedroom. I kept the trains after I got married in my 20’s, but foolishly sold them for ski boots. I’ve been trying to catch up ever since!

Take the prices in a catalog from the early ‘50s and multiply them by 10, and you in the ballpark of today’s equivalent price

So do you think in 50 years people will be collecting today's Lionel Trains as heirlooms and collector's items or will they still be collecting the same ones from the 40's and 50's that we had as kids?  If the answer is the latter then you must know the reason.

This subject often comes up, but what no one seems to remember are the Day-After-Christmas sales back then. Department stores, hardware stores, appliance stores, etc., used to sell trains as a seasonal item, and the day after Christmas were blow-out sales with trains selling for a fraction of what they sold for on Christmas Eve. My mother used to buy my present for next year at these sales, and as I got older and had my own money I also hit the stores. I still have a GM Emergency Generator car (blue with full stripe) that has the $2.45 sticker on the box from Taubman's Hardware in Baltimore. Yes, trains were expensive back then, but bargains were there if you looked.

@artyoung posted:

This subject often comes up, but what no one seems to remember are the Day-After-Christmas sales back then. Department stores, hardware stores, appliance stores, etc., used to sell trains as a seasonal item, and the day after Christmas were blow-out sales with trains selling for a fraction of what they sold for on Christmas Eve. My mother used to buy my present for next year at these sales, and as I got older and had my own money I also hit the stores. I still have a GM Emergency Generator car (blue with full stripe) that has the $2.45 sticker on the box from Taubman's Hardware in Baltimore. Yes, trains were expensive back then, but bargains were there if you looked.

I remember those half price sales at the large department stores in downtown Indianapolis when I was a young boy. The trains were mostly items they had on their display layouts but other items were also included. One year I had received the 2412-2416 passenger set for Christmas and my dad purchased another 2412 & 2414, orphaning the 2416 observation car that was on the layout. We also got a 6822 Searchlight car that year. I still have all of them.

Regards, Steve

Here is a link to an inflation calculator.

Trains were expensive toys back in the day.

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

Great thread Big John Henry, I always wanted a Lionel train set for Christmas but my dad thought that the newer HO trains that were coming out was the way to go, so I never received any 3 rail trains, always HO, that was back in the early 50's.  About 20 years ago, I was given some Marx trains and they were a disaster, I still have them in a box, they will take an enormous amount of work to get them presentable just to put on the display shelf.  I've always thought that Lionel was on the expensive side but as my wife and I were able to come up with extra money now and then and I found the OGR Forum and Fee Bay, I started buying the trains that I felt I could afford and it wasn't until about 6 to 8 years ago that I bought my first new train set, 80% of what I have are used trains and even those I found to be expensive but not as bad as brand new.  I think the new stuff coming out now is just crazy for the prices we're having to pay.  I paid $1,600 or $1,700 fora new Lionel SP AC-9 and my wife thought I had lost my mind, I think I did but that's another story.  If you really stop and think about it, any hobby you get into and really get into it, they are all expensive and will probably stay that way.  Wish I was a Millionaire, so many trains and things I want but will probably never be able to afford.  Thanks for starting the thread, great answers guys.

Yes they were expensive but many have lasted from the pre-World WarI  years until the present time.  That's over a hundred years.  I'd say they were worth every penny.  Think the new stuff will be around 100 years from now?   On the other side of the coin we have Marx Trains which were very inexpensive and even they are still working 70 or more years after being manufactured.  The old cliche, "They don't make them liked they used to" still hold true.

My trains were acquired in the early 1960s, so things had changed somewhat.  There is something else that needs to be remembered.  Train purchases were quite often CASH purchases.  Having children and homes and cars hasn't changed that much.  Then like today there was always something that you could be spending money on.  Even for families that could afford to buy trains with what they could set aside over two to three months, there would have been a huge temptation to raid the train fund for other purposes.

They were quite out of reach in UK, following the 1949 devaluation from $4 to $2.80 to the £. This (combined with import taxes) doubled the price relative to US prices...

I think back then people used more common sense and as said bought trains for cash.    And the cash used was what became available after all the "real" expenses such as mortgage, groceries, kids clothes, car expenses etc were paid.    if a few bucks extra were there, maybe buy some train piece.

I have story about the discounts.    There was a small local hardware store chain in the area I grew up in.   I heard there were 7 brothers and each one had his own store but they used the same name and probably bought in bulk.

They did discount Lionel stuff even before Christmas, and the one in my town at least always had a huge inventory.     My much older brother worked for the local newspaper in plant going through a printers apprenticeship.    He got off work one Christmas Eve about 4:30 and had a few bucks and wanted to buy me some train stuff for Christmas - he figured a few passenger cars.     So he went over to store after work as they were getting close to closing time on Christmas Eve about 5:00.    He said they seemed to have already started a Christmas party and everyone seemed to be in very good spirits, literally.     So he was standing front of the big set of shelves about 15 feet long and 12 feet up to the ceiling in the old building.    He was looking things over and was impressed by a new Santa Fe Freight Set - top of the line that year.   In my research, I think it retailed for $75,    The store manager came over and asked him if he wanted that set.    My brother said yes, but he didn't have the money for it, he couldn't afford it,  He said just wanted to buy a couple passenger cars for his little brother.   Well the store manager said, how much money you got kid?   My brother said $45.   The Manager OK, you can have it for that, and he dug under the counter for the boxes and handed to my brother.   He said,  you take it down and pack it up.     So that is how we got the big santa Fe set.    When I grew up I gave it back to my brother and his son still has it.

Was the catalog price what you actually paid, or was it an MSRP that dealers routinely undercut by a significant margin?

Talking discounts...my father worked for Curtis publishing company adjacent to Independence Hall in down town Philadelphia.

Curtis and several center city merchants shared deep employee discounts which made for a rather affordable Lionel Christmas each year.

@Joe Connor posted:

Was the catalog price what you actually paid, or was it an MSRP that dealers routinely undercut by a significant margin?

In the early 1950s, trains usually were sold at prices shown in the catalog. Larger dealers might have specials at times, generally items that were discontinued by Lionel and Flyer at the time. In 1955, the catalog didn't show set prices. There were catalog set numbers for  Lionel dealers and a second set of set numbers for outlets sold in discount locations. Often these sets were slightly different that the sets provided under Lionel catalogued set numbers.

In our family, trains were handed down from sibling to sibling. My next oldest brother had prewar items with the exception of a 675 loco whose tender had a box coupler, a Madison Hardware modification. When the trains became mine, i went to Madison Hardware to have a knuckle coupler installed and purchased a 2456 Lehigh Valley Hopper, a 2452 PRR Gondola, a 6465 Sunoco tank car and a 6257 Lionel lines caboose. Caboose , Those cars cost me the $10 dollars i had saved. I didn't have the  $3.50 needed for the 6454 Erie box car that i really wanted. Not to long ago, I bought that Erie Box Car on Ebay  after all the years that past. You know it was more than $3.50.

It took me so long to accumulate $29.95 (the cost of a Santa Fe AB 027 set) by saving Christmas and Birthday money that by the time I saved that amount, and arrived at Madison Hardware, after a LIRR trip from Greenport, to make the big purchase, the price had gone up to $34.95.  Say what you will about Lou and Carl, and their reputation for cold business practices, that day the brothers relented and charged me $29.95.  I guess the two old softies saw the tears about to well up, and decided that it would be bad for business for a 9-year old to start bawling in their store.

33 years later, when I was their occasional telephone repairman and steady customer, I reminded them of that day. They didn't remember, but it actually brought tears to THEIR eyes when I told them the story. Then Lou snarled "You owe me five bucks, kid."

BTW, at the time of the Santa Fe purchase, my Mom's weekly salary was $40.

This gets discussed now and then. Lionel trains have always been expensive, and were out of reach for most middle-class families in the 50s, and the 60s, too. It may have been a well-known name, but there were far more kids who dreamed of them than ever had them.

My train (671 freight set) were bought on after Christmas sale of 50% and also a 15% employee discount.  Still they were very expensive.  The 1948 ZW box was marked 29.95.  Luckily the cheaper items were already gone, so we got nice stuff.   My dad never had much growing up in the depression and wanted to make sure his two boys had a train ( my older brother was 2 months old and wasn't thought of yet).  I think they were really for my dad, with us as a justification. 

I think a coke was a nickel or less, so the ZW was equivalent to 419 bottles of coke?

I received Lionel freight set 2507 in 1958 with a ZW........New Haven F3 with 5 freight cars. Years later I discovered the Macy’s tags.......$39.95 for the set (List $65) and $21.95 for the transformer (List $39.95).........huge amounts of money in those days! I still have it all, except for the set box which disintegrated long ago.

I know it was a stretch for my parents and am eternally grateful for their sacrifice.

Peter

I received a Scout set for Christmas when I was about 5. When I received the flat car with airplane some years later, I noticed the coupler difference. Ah, but the Lionel catalog listed conversion couplers at $.50 each! My spendable allowance then was $.30 a week. Needing 7 couplers, I had to save for 12 weeks. Taught me discipline and how to check impulse buying.

Terry

The box from my #60 Tolley is stamped $5.99. The box from my Plasticville Suburban Station is marked $.99.

Just for the sake of some hard numbers re: inflation -- inflation multiplier from date to March 2021:

1950 11.2

1955 9.9

1960 9.0

Arguably inflation is only one means of comparing - and not a perfect one at that, since for things like Lionel trains, technologies etc. have changed so what you get now for, say, $400 is different than what you got for $40 in the mid-fifties.  I think simple inflation measures are probably better for things like a loaf of bread or quart of milk... (though for some things like milk, there is the issue of non-market pricing).

Even during the Pre War era. A Std Gauge State Set coat $100.00 after the 1929 crash and if you look at the old catalogs a set that sold for $5.50 was over a week pay for some people if you were fortunate to have a job.

Not many working class folks could afford a Lionel standard gauge state or Blue Comet set in those days. :-(

Model trains were expensive in the 1950s. That is one reason my brother and I got a Marx 999 freight set rather than a Lionel set.  It is the same reason my kids got post war used trains for our Christmas train layout.

But how much is your expensive 1950s TV, refrigerator,etc. worth now?  If you kept your 1950s trains in good shape they will probably bring back a higher percentage of their cost now that other 1950s stuff.

Charlie

My Dad got me the 1467 freight set from 1951.   I think he paid $52.00.  He didn’t tell Mom.   She would have killed him!   (Figuratively speaking)

I agree with artyoung about the discounts. I was born in 1946 and my dad was the town's  police dept "master mechanic"-the person in charge of police vehicles maintance, street signs, yellow curb painting,etc. So I have to believe that he did lots of "favors" for lots of folks. The local gun store-( Toblers-in Union City NJ) was the store which sold the police their service revolvers-and they sold Lionel trains during the holidays. Besides likely giving my dad a break on Christmas items, my dad would take me to Toblers gun shop a few days after Christmas to pick out a few trains for my upcoming birthday, etc. Otherwise I doubt that my family could have afforded them, even with my dad's two jobs. 

Back then FAIR TRADE LAWS were agreements between manufacturers and their retailers agreeing not to discount the items.  In the early 1960's, some merchants began to test the enforceability of these laws and for the most part they were invalidated.  For some reason they still apply to Levis jeans and Maytag appliances - if you see an appliance store having a sale, the fine print always excludes Maytag.  A ZW transformer was $40 and when I was a kid in the mid-60's my parents gave me a choice for my birthday of either a party or a generous $15 gift from them.  Under that rationale, I could have had 3/8ths of a ZW with nothing left over for track or trains.  Yes, Lionel trains were expensive relative to other toys and would not be affordable for many.  I was lucky in that my grandparents were visiting a relative in New York who had two daughters and a Lionel setup including a 736 Berkshire and a ZW.  He created the Phil Silvers "Bilko" show and had probably written a joke with a play on the word "Lionel" and was given the trains by Lionel's P.R. firm.  My mom once joked that when he needed a vacuum cleaner, he made a President Hoover joke in a script and promptly received a new appliance.  His girls couldn't care less about the trains and the relative took note when my grandmother mentioned that I would love to play with them.  The day they were leaving, he presented the trains to them saying that if they were willing to lug them back to Los Angeles, then he was happily giving them to someone who would appreciate them.  I did, I do and still have them.

Model trains have ALWAYS been expensive... prices can be up/down in the secondary market over time, but since the "pandemic" hit, market prices seem to be generally UP.  Over the decades, model railroading has taken good chunks of money to seriously indulge in it.

Plus, with the current run on lumber, building/revising a layout is getting very expensive. Good quality (A/C) plywood that I purchased back in '19 for $40 a sheet has more than doubled, some places charging over $100 for the same sheet.

Housing starts are beginning to suffer. I know of one person that had to cancel their plans to build a new home because of the doubling+ of lumber prices.

SO... YES... model trains (and now the building supplies needed) WERE and ARE expensive.

Just the facts, M'am, just the facts.

Andre

My parents bought me a really great Lionel Super-O starter set in the early 1960s.   I think they said they paid nearly $100 for it.   This included a big locomotive, whistle tender, and the Star-Trek like Transformer.

But, I could never afford to expand it, not even one bit.  The cost of a single electric turn-out was, I think, around $20, back when minimum wage was $1.50 an hour.  I think the manual switches were around $12.00.     

Impossible for me as a small child to add onto the layout.   And, what kid would want to wait a whole year until Christmas, and try to ask for a pair of switches at around $40?    Back then, this would have been all you got for Christmas.

So, it remained a once a year, circle around the Christmas tree,  item, and never became an interesting growing hobby for me.

I have read that there was a serious recession in the mid-1950s, so I can't imagine lots of middle class folks spending serious money on train sets back then.

Mannyrock

Growing up we (my brothers and I) couldn't even think about getting Lionel trains.  There simply was not a lot of money in my house in the 1960's

I was the youngest and thus followed the lead of 3 older brothers who got into HO gauge and together we built an expansive 8 ft. x 12 ft. HO layout, a lot of track, not many trains, no remote switches, not much scenery or buildings. cheap cheap cheap.

But somehow I knew the real treasure was in a crate packed away in the basement, which were my dad's trains from when he was a boy in the 1930's.  We were never allowed to play with them.  I now have those trains, an Ives passenger set and a Lionel Flying Yankee Set.  I am also fortunate  enough to have the disposable income to put into hobbies so my children (all grown now) could see the fun of Lionel when they were growing up. 

Yes they are expensive, by the standards of any decade, but the joy they bring is worth it!

I had Gilbert Flyer as a lad in the early 1950's and when I "just had to have" the beautiful new A-B-A five-passenger car North Coast Limited which retailed for then $80 USD, our neighbor who worked as the switchboard operator at the Gilbert Hall of Science in NYC generously got the set for us with her 40% employee discount! $48 dollars was a more manageable amount for my family, albeit still expensive. As an adult, I very much appreciate all the sacrifices my family made for my sister and myself to give us a happy childhood! My wife and I both tried to pay this forward with our own three children.

Yes, Lionel trains weren't cheap, and many of our parents had to sacrifice to buy them for us, but think of the return they got on their investment:

1. Many of us still have our childhood trains running like new 60 or 70 years later. Name another toy that was that durable.

2. Those trains kept us busy for hours on end. I can't think of any other toy that I played with for as many hours as my trains. The only thing remotely close was my Erector set.

3. Those trains taught us a lot. We learned basic electricity and wiring, the patience to figure things out when something went wrong, the small-motor skills and imagination needed to build scenery and do the other things needed to convert a 4x8 piece of plywood into a model-railroad empire.

4. We learned to save and make a budget to acquire more trains or supplies.  Some of us got paper routes so we could earn the money to expand our layouts.

My parents started getting the message when I was 12 or 13 and started fixing things around the house with the skills I had learned from playing with my trains. They realized that the trains more than something to keep me busy and out of trouble.

Joe: Well stated! :-)

Great post. A lot of valuable information here. Great memories too.

I was exceptionally lucky. My dad worked for the Airforce and made a livable wage but most of it went to the household and the yearly vacation. I never got a new Lionel train set at Christmas but in many ways got something much better for my 3rd Birthday in 1964. Some friends of the family a huge apple orchard in Oneida country NY and had Been able to afford to buy their sons a lot of Lionel trains. They outgrew them and they offered to sell the lot of it to my dad for $50. He took them up. The trains had been “well loved” and not everything was in great condition. It included a 736, 2035, 2020 a x-4-x loco and a 621 switcher with a mix mash of cars including the Milk and Cattle Cars, 2 log Cars, one side dump car, crane and tender cars and a few Cabeese. It also included both log loaders and the coal ramp with coal loader. Some auto crossing gates, light towers, station and Auto gateman rounded out the list as did a fair amount of O gauge track. We set it up on the dining room table but before a more permanent solution was found we were transferred to Utah in 1965. On settled there I got a 4x8 with a 2x4 extension for a layout space and we set everything up. Not everything worked, and this being about the time Lionel went into decline, finding new items, and even getting the old ones repaired was pretty hard. So I spent the next 10 years of my life tinkering with that lot to get it to work. In the process I learned basic electronics, assembly  and troubleshooting skills that have made me the “Chief Geek” in my Health System Laboratory computer analyst job. The one thing I never got was the shiny Santa Fe Warbonnet F3’s and aluminum passenger cars I drooled after in the scraps of old catalogs that came with box of trains. I still have some of those trains and with the skills they thought me, was able, some 40+ years later to be able to afford to buy that passenger set at last.

@Craftech posted:

So do you think in 50 years people will be collecting today's Lionel Trains as heirlooms and collector's items or will they still be collecting the same ones from the 40's and 50's that we had as kids?  If the answer is the latter then you must know the reason.

That's an interesting question. I think from a rolling stock perspective, the modern era has given us equal or better quality, especially for those (not me) in the 1:48 scale segment of 3RO.  I don't see future scale operators pining for ubiquitous PW gondolas, milk cars, or 6464 box cars.

Assume, though, you meant motive power. I'm sure my PW heirloom engines will be running for future generations, and I'm also pretty sure the electronics in my modern engines will fail. With all the modern engines out on the market, as long as there are replacements (like ERR's) that can bring a dead engine back to life for, say, 1/2 the cost of a new one, I think modern engines will be running in the future, as well.

@OKHIKER posted:

  Think the new stuff will be around 100 years from now?    The old cliche, "They don't make them liked they used to" still hold true.

Ohh boy here we go with that one again.  Will your car still be around 100 years from now? How about your refrigerator or washer and dryer? Maybe your TV?

I'm still waiting for my 20+ year old TMCC locos to quit like folks keep saying. They run just as good as the day they came out of the box and I haven't had to change a single brush,e unit or clean a single commutator.

Will anyone on this forum give the slightest care where our trains are in 100 years??? Will this forum even exist in 100 years????

Heck, the WORLD COULD END in 100 years.

I am simply going to enjoy my trains while I'm alive. Someone else can worry about their reputation when I'm dead.

Hey! None of us thought of "Lay-A-Way" plans in stores, or "Christmas Club" accounts in Banks.

There's a reason that there's so many Postwar trains out there: people - LOTS of people - managed to buy them somehow.

Aren't we all lucky?

I guess something to keep in mind is that Lionel Trains were the PS2/Xboxes of the 50’s and 60’s. High end toys.

My father kept a list of everything he purchased when he started my layout when I was two.  While the list along with the trains are long gone there's two prices that stick out from 1968 that I remember well.  A 773 Hudson was purchased for 70 dollars and a 736 berkshire for 40 bucks. For perspective when I got back into the hobby 1997 or 98 the Hudson with vandy tender I purchased was 1000 bucks I think.

Since someone else has already mentioned the cost difference of HO, I'll just mention that I started out with Tri-Ang OO. Tri-Ang developed plastic moulding and really cut the cost of model railways, undercutting the older die-cast body, tinplate track marquee like Hornby Dublo by 50% or more. Basset-LowkeO gauge was completely out of reach.

Good quality HO equipment was expensive as well. As a high school student without a steady job, I had to save for a very long time for the Athearn SDP40 I purchased for 17.99 in 1975.

Bob

@Craftech posted:

So do you think in 50 years people will be collecting today's Lionel Trains as heirlooms and collector's items or will they still be collecting the same ones from the 40's and 50's that we had as kids?  If the answer is the latter then you must know the reason.

Interesting question. In 50 years there will likely be a huge mkt for the original post war. The Americana is just over the top. I doubt there will be a cult following for today’s stuff, but that’s debatable. With bto, there won’t be a huge surplus, and as long as there are components to fix boards, there should be a mkt. Trains and baseball cards follow a similar trajectory. The pw trains and 20s-60s cards are classic and they seem to have a huge following. Then came the over produced (and to my knowledge) lower qualty Mpc era and the 80s-90s junk wax baseball cards. Newer cards and trains seemed to have had a COVID renaissence with newer products. So, my best guess is that yes there will be a mkt, but not a cult following. However my logic is making  a ton of assumptions.

New Lionel trains always were expensive even in the 1950's considering an average person wages.

But other hobbies, more for do it yourselves ones, like building plastic models kits, stick and paper air plane kits, U fly model airplanes kits or scratch building with balsa wood and Testor's glue and air plane dope were more affordable.  McCoy came out with $10 air plane motors:  .19 or .35 ,the same $10.  I had only two model air plane kits, both gifts from my grandmas.  I still have them and the Fox and McCoy .35 motors, never crashed.  All my buddies and brother built planes, mostly flying wings, from plans in a Model Builder magazine.  What fun flying combat and trying to cut the other guys flying wings crape paper tail off.

Have you been in a hobby shop lately?  I check them out when I pickup the latest Lionel train catalog once or twice a year.  Little plastic model kits of air planes are $20 and up.  The cost of balsa wood and dope and glue are way up too.  Even considering inflation the prices are high and out of reach for kids.

I have to remember I did not pay the high prices in the 1950s-60s, as I bought balsa wood via mail from Sig company at much cheaper prices and postage was low.  I also lived 27 miles from the closest hobby shop and in south Texas all cow driving towns were 27 miles apart, the distance of a one day cattle drive.  We even made our own air plane fuel with one guys dad being a pharmacist so castor oil was had and others dads or adults we flew with, worked at DuPont and Union Carbide, so methanol and nitro benzene were available cheap too.

Charlie

My parents worked to get me  a train set from Santa for my 3rd Christmas in 1960. They put it together and to this day I still  haven't been able to confirm  if it was a true set, or put together by a salesman by the name of Sam at the old Lechmere Sales on 1st St in Cammbridge Ma.

The set was powered by the 1055 Alco A Texas Special with the 6012blue gondola with canister load, 6014 blue Airex  box car, the 3370 Sheriff  and Outlaw car and a red 6017 caboose brought up the rear. It had an oval of track and was powered by my uncle's  old American Flyer transformer.

I still have the set and much later when I was in my late 20's, I asked  my Mom about the set. She told me they saved for several months to afford it, she didn't remember the  price  they paid. But they were  thrilled that every Christmas the set was placed around their  tree till I got my own place.

@RamblerDon posted:

When you factor in inflation. Current trains aren't much different in price. Think about how hard it was was to save up $75 for a 700e back in the 1937.

Based on wages and other factors in 1937, which was still the Great Depression, that is easily the equivalent of 2500 bucks today......

@CNJ 3676 posted:

Good quality HO equipment was expensive as well. As a high school student without a steady job, I had to save for a very long time for the Athearn SDP40 I purchased for 17.99 in 1975.

Bob

I remember scraping up $12.00 for a Mantua/Tyco Pacific kit in the mid 1960's.  (Assembled they were around $28.00)  On top of that was about $6.00 for a Cal Scale Elesco feedwater set of brass castings for it.

Rusty

As others have said, they were expensive back in the day. When my parents were first married (c1952), my mom found out my dad never had trains and thought that was a shame. Her brother was buying trains for her nephew (who was all of 9 months old!) for Christmas of that year, so she decided that her gift to my dad was going to be trains, told her brother that whatever he bought, double it. Her comment was there weren't discounters back then, but there was a place in Brooklyn at the time that would give discounts if you bought a lot. I still have some of those trains, the 671 engine, freight cars, dump car and other pieces. She said it was a couple of weeks salary for her (as an office manager), but worth it.

Back then a kid would get a train set, if lucky, then would get pieces on birthdays and such. Even when I was growing up, mostly in the MPC era, new trains were expensive (on the other hand, you could often, for 30,40 or 50 bucks, get a huge lot of trains someone was getting rid of, my father got something like that in the late 60's, included several engines, accessories, 027 track and switches, kw transformer, bunch of stuff) for like 35 bucks. ).

One of the problems with all of us is we have gotten used to an economy where things become cheaper. In the 1950's tv's were ridiculously expensive and obviously were crude and primitive. In the 1955 tv sets ranged from 130 bucks to 1300 bucks in 1955 dollars (easily 1000 bucks for the low end one in todays dollars). A thousand bucks today will get you an oled tv with a 60" screen, 4k display, etc etc).  Appliances were expensive, too (though they likely lasted forever, one plus on them), you name it. Cars today dollar wise are expensive, but if you look at the cost but then look at how long they last and the relative lack of maintenance required, they are a lot cheaper than cars back then. Your smart phone has more computing power in it than the entire computing power NASA had in 1969, for 500 bucks (and can do a lot more). The problem is trains didn't follow this trend, in large part because they are not a mass consumer item. If they sold as many trains as let's say Samsung does tvs, that 1500 buck engine would probably be 500 (and if there was real competition, prob less).

Lionel is interesting, in the golden age of the 1950's I wonder what their margins were like vs how many trains they really sold. My guess is their margins were high and that their sales, while obviously more than today, were not as large as you might think (in terms of units), it sounds like Lionel, while they had low end stuff, was kind of aiming at the high margin/relatively low volume business even back then (and again, this is relative. Were Lionel trains popular back then? Yes. Did they sell as many of them as video games today? I really doubt it). While a lot of kids might have had trains, because of the pricing model, few would have a lot. Not to mention the other factor, how many of these were bought by parents with their eye on them, too?

As far as the value of post war trains goes, yes their simplicity made them easy to repair (same with older appliances), and because of that and the sheer number available between originals and reproductions, and the parts out there, so they can keep going. As far as their value as collectors items, I am dubious about that. I doubt modern engines and such will become collectors items, with some exceptions, but I think the post war/pre war won't be a big deal either. As with pre war, post war trains will likely be valued for being a rarity, a 700e will probably be a collectors item, the post war versions of it won't likely, because it was an original. Over time what will happen is the common postwar stuff, the runners and even stuff that has been collected, won't be worth much, whereas specific, rare items might fetch a lot, like the "remote control' sets or the ones that allowed using two engines on the same track.

My take? The prices what they are. You can get discounts today, and also there is a used market, so there are always way to be able to get trains on a reasonable budget.

@raising4daughters posted:

That's an interesting question. I think from a rolling stock perspective, the modern era has given us equal or better quality, especially for those (not me) in the 1:48 scale segment of 3RO.  I don't see future scale operators pining for ubiquitous PW gondolas, milk cars, or 6464 box cars.

Assume, though, you meant motive power. I'm sure my PW heirloom engines will be running for future generations, and I'm also pretty sure the electronics in my modern engines will fail. With all the modern engines out on the market, as long as there are replacements (like ERR's) that can bring a dead engine back to life for, say, 1/2 the cost of a new one, I think modern engines will be running in the future, as well.

It's all relative. Case in point:

I got into Lionel in the 1980s when my Dad gave my  son a starter set. Compared to those, the postwar trains were worlds better. The Fundimensions starter set had an all plastic loco- no smoke or whistle- and ran on DC so couldn't be used with postwar trains. The cars had plastic journals and wheels and fixed plastic couplers. You couldn't even uncouple them! Imagine my reaction when I went to a hobby store to get something to add. While there I saw an early postwar operating dump car with it's all metal construction and coil couplers. I was enchanted. I think I paid $15 for it and took it home and my days as a postwar collector had begun.

Lionel of course raised its game as the 80s progressed and Richard Kughn took over (and later with a significant nudge from MTH) and arguably the trains made from 1995-2005 surpass anything made postwar in quality.

Another thought: Like others who have posted, I also got HO trains in the late 50s even though my Dad had Lionels in the 1920s and 30s. HO was the up and coming thing. But I think I must have had an unscratched itch for Lionel since it was ubiquitous in advertising and pop culture. I wonder how many Lionel collectors NEVER had them as a child. I pretty good percentage I would say.

@bigkid posted:

Over time what will happen is the common postwar stuff, the runners and even stuff that has been collected, won't be worth much, whereas specific, rare items might fetch a lot, like the "remote control' sets or the ones that allowed using two engines on the same track

This is already happening—the Postwar market has changed dramatically over the last 30 years.  I remember when I worked hobby retail in the 1990s the gap between Very Good and Like New prices were much narrower.  For example, back then a 6464-1 Western Pacific boxcar would fetch about $75 in VG and $150 or so LN.  Looking on eBay, today the gap is about $35 to $300.  Auctions had something to do with that but much of it is a slow motion sorting of the market, due to the emergence of reproductions and demographics.  

Same goes for MPC.  Adjusted for inflation, today top of the line MPC is cheap.   The FMs and GG-1s, which are almost exact replicas of Postwar models less sound, go for around $150 each.   What has instead grown in value over the ensuing decades?  Mint condition starter sets.  I recently saw a sealed 1980 4-4-2 set go for $450.   If you want a real collecting challenge, try to get all of the early ‘70s starter sets in LN condition.   It’s about impossible.

I think we’ll see this continue.   Postwar and low-quantity MPC in LN/MT will continue to escalate while the prices for runner-condition pieces will stay stagnant or decline, with attrition slowly wearing down the total available.  It’s fascinating stuff.  

@richs09 posted:

Just for the sake of some hard numbers re: inflation -- inflation multiplier from date to March 2021:

1950 11.2

1955 9.9

1960 9.0

Arguably inflation is only one means of comparing - and not a perfect one at that, since for things like Lionel trains, technologies etc. have changed so what you get now for, say, $400 is different than what you got for $40 in the mid-fifties.  I think simple inflation measures are probably better for things like a loaf of bread or quart of milk... (though for some things like milk, there is the issue of non-market pricing).

I think several issues come into play when making these comparisons.

If I remember correctly, I saw gasoline for 14.9 cents, loaf of bread 5 cents, and a bottle of coke was 5 cents back in the day.

Also, your coin money was made of 90% silver and the paper money was backed by 1 Oz silver bullion on demand.

I think the value of your money, the value of like kind and quality goods, as well as inflation and selling price should be considered.

@aussteve posted:

I think several issues come into play when making these comparisons.

If I remember correctly, I saw gasoline for 14.9 cents, loaf of bread 5 cents, and a bottle of coke was 5 cents back in the day.

Also, your coin money was made of 90% silver and the paper money was backed by 1 Oz silver bullion on demand.

I think the value of your money, the value of like kind and quality goods, as well as inflation and selling price should be considered.

These conversions are always complicated, the market basket index of inflation (CPI) doesn't account for everything. If you look at median income (3300 in 1950, versus like 44k today), it would seem the inflation index covers that, but then if you look at things like cost of housing, insurance and the like, it is much higher than it was back in the day. Some things are dirty cheap comparitively, like a TV set or many appliances, others are more expensive (in general, anything involving human services in it is much more expensive. ). a typical car was around 3.5k in 1970, today it is likely 35k.

In the 1950's salaries kept pace with inflation, since the 1970's, many salaries have lost ground vs inflation. I suspect if you made a 'real world cost vs salary' kind of comparison, you would find out that the real cost is higher than CPI would show.  It is funny, often when I see these comparisons between X year and Y, it often seems to come up with "10", I think that just makes it easier.

In the end it doesn't matter, using 11 or 15 or even 20 for inflation, the trains were expensive back in the day and they are expensive today, no matter how you look at it. I think back then and today it is because they are relatively low volume, high margin products, they made a lot of post war, but it was dwarfed by the amount of other toys produced in other areas. TV sets in the 1950's were a luxury, an expensive one, by the 60's and beyond because of competition and scale of production they became steadily cheaper, these days they are ridiculously cheap, you look at that and say why does a Legacy diesel cost 800 bucks.  On the other hand, since I get Model Railroader, and look at their reviews, it isn't much cheaper there, I just saw an N scale hudson (I think it was Rivarossi), with dcc in it, and its msrp was like 599, same with HO scale DCC equipped, those are pushing the 500, 600 dollar range and up.

It seams most agree Lionel O gauge trains were expensive in the 1950s and today.  People can only do something about expensive Lionel 0 gauge trains now and they have several choices, examples below.

1 chose to not buy Lionel O gauge trains

2 chose to buy used late model Lionel O gauge trains with the latest features

3 chose to buy used MPC Lionel O gauge trains without all the modern features

4 chose to buy used post war Lionel O gauge trains without the latest modern features

A desire or need for "scale"  Lionel O gauge trains will also affect ones choices.

Charlie

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

It seams most agree Lionel O gauge trains were expensive in the 1950s and today.  People can only do something about expensive Lionel 0 gauge trains now and they have several choices, examples below.

1 chose to not buy Lionel O gauge trains

2 chose to buy used late model Lionel O gauge trains with the latest features

3 chose to buy used MPC Lionel O gauge trains without all the modern features

4 chose to buy used post war Lionel O gauge trains without the latest modern features

A desire or need for "scale"  Lionel O gauge trains will also affect ones choices.

Charlie

Choo Choo Charlie,

I agree but would amend # 4 to read: Chose to buy post war Lionel O gauge trains and enjoy the sound and ozone smell from the open frame motors, the e-unit buzz, the sound of the bicycle horn or air whistle and the grip of Magne-traction