I  have a original 65 lionel handcar with a bad original square  two  wires going to it one  from the center pickup going to the rectifier (original) and the other to the one side of the  motor brush

the Replacement   rectifier that  he sent  ac to dc   is 4 wires not two  .. when you connect a test wires to to   ac  and not ground it it works but as soon as you  ground it  to the metal it makes the transformer  hum ..

If I add a single phase  rectifier the type that   flows the electric on one leg it works but the performance is less than the 4 legged  one

 

Any one been their and can tell me if I can us the 4 leged one or have to just go with the single  rectifier..

I checked the original 65 handcar is dc but is grounded I think the new can motors are not grounded and I can find a way to insulate the motor from the body being grounded...

Thank-you for  the info daniel

Original Post

After a lot of trying  and  asking I found out you can only use a   single  diode  rectifier..MCC 50v 6A Current Blocking Rectifier Diode I talk to a guy that recommended a capacitor between the brushes to help make it run smoother..    and it did, but  I did not like to have to put it under the pump  ..So after a little more research I found out you can use these 1N58824 Diode Schottky Barrier  rectifier  30v 5A I used these alone and it runs perfect!  with out a capacitor  as the orgianl Lionel handcar did not have  one...

So if you ever want to fix your original 65  Lionel handcar this will  work....DANiel

 

I'm happy to know you're running again, but I'm betting you didn't get an answer fast because the facts we're incomplete and a bit confusing in how it was stated.  I can't believe it slipped between the cracks and didn't get answered or commented on... if there was ever a reason to bump a post to the top I'd say it was to get help for someone. (Next time, I'd suggest a second posting of a help question if nobody responds in a day or two )

  The terminology comes with experience and I don't want to discourage, because there is only one way to get experience...this is in hopes to clarify for your knowledge understanding, and for others reading too.  This is basic stuff, useful to postwar & modern alike.

  I'm not sure if you left a board in place, but a full wave bridge rectifier *should have worked if there is no board. It would work with a board too unless it is an ac only trolley which I highly doubt. (It is possible to use only the neg wave to "think" and only the pos. for other things.. Kinda rare in trains though)

 Something was wrong. Be it component choice, bad component, or wiring, something wasn't right.  A standard rectifier or diode should have worked; nothing special needed. "Special" could be the issue, all we need is a "one way check valve". (Current blocking? ... Offhand this sounds like current limiting, which would not be good for most motors. [easier to be basic and right than search to explain why yours might not be right])

*A can motor with a "grounded case" connected to a metal chassis would not be able to use a full wave rectifier, but would need half wave (what you have with the diode). It would also not reverse without a second diode added. An isolated motor would work with either.

The half wave is "lumpy dc" letting only the positive ac wave pass. Full wave flips the neg. ac wave makeing it positive, and giving two lumps of dc per cycle, so is smoother. 

A capacitor can do two things here depending on the type. For power(can type) it acts as a small battery, charging during wave peaks, and letting power loose when as input goes low. (Would need to be bi-polar for two directions). Or for a filter (disk types to stop the tv/radio fuzz that motor fields cause).  The smoothing cap only leaves tiny peak bumps, very close to pure DC. Half wave can have a smoothing cap too, but I would need to be very much larger to bridge the wide gap... Just not done often.

Some motors will run cooler on half wave because the missing wave allows "off time" where it coasts. Others will run hotter needing the smoother full wave to do work more efficiently.  Tests are often the only way know.  (We don't use 3phase)th-37

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





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thank-YOU for responding I was getting a little sad...     but I Tried a full bridge rectifier it will not work because the old original  Lionel 65 handcar motor is not like a can motor it uses the ground  to make it work witch is grounded to the chassis  so when you use a   4 wire full bridge rectifier it shorts out the transformer because  the AC ground goes to chassis and the DC Ground goes to the other brush  BUT that is grounded also so  it will not work

The man that helped me is the motor doctor and he was and is aware of this type of motor...  and helped me get on track..

 

I could use a full bridge if I was able to  insulate the motor from the chassis but that would mean cut the long armature  that goes through the chassis  and I do not want to do that,,, 

thanks for the response  ....DANiel

The "forgotten post" does happen. I've had two get skipped, then suddenly explode about two weeks later   Timing is everything.

The chassis ground and full bridge not working was what I hoped you understood. It's one thing to swap parts, another to know why.

What (still) has me confused is why it needs rectification at all if it is an open frame ac brush motor. Direction change using two diodes is all I could think of. I couldn't find an online reference to it at all and haven't ran one since I was about 8, many decades ago, but I don't recall it being bump and go either.

Does it have magnets in the motor? 

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





its a dc motor    I wish  somebody made a original replacement  no  one  has or sold any  ... I am able to reverse the rotation if I swap brush  contact  ..  right now original its wired with only one wire going to one brush and none on the other because its grounded to chassis..     Daniel

If you want to replace the original part, I have one. It is half wave and makes the motor run choppy, not as smooth as a full wave rectifier, but when the handcar is running, not noticeable. If you run the handcar on the same track with a locomotive, the horn or whistle will blow. Drop a line if interested. Would be 10.00.IMG_0275

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You don't need a Schottky diode, just a plain silicon diode will work fine.  Here's a suitable 6A diode for 42 cents.

https://www.digikey.com/produc...6A4-TPMSCT-ND/773700

"Could you please tell me where your purchased your 1N58824 Diode Schottky Barrier  Rectifier  30v 5A on your POSTWAR Lionel 65 Handcar???

I cant find a supplier for this rectifier."

I recheck I think I put too many 8 in the number!!!    Go to Ebay   and retype it this way...,  1N5824 Diode Schottky Barrier  Rectifier  30v 5A.

Its true a plain one will work but the 1N5824 Diode Schottky will make it a huge difference, I had both diodes when I tried to compare and the   Schottky  one... not only made  it run faster but moved on start up quicker than a reg diode..  Then after all that I did get that $10.00 original one from the guy that posted he had one... ...      daniel

Also  remember to replace the men they get so hard ..  I put on the LTI ones their shorter  and plain  but work!! and you can paint them with acrylic paint to match and look like the postwar  ones.. Make sure that the men are not the reason your having trouble .. don't ask me why...(lol)  daniel

Thank you for the information...the 1N5824 diode fit OK under the plastic shell? There is not much room there.

 

Yes it as I remembered goes on the side of the pump handle support.. but you have to really cut wires on the ends of the diode  really close to it....and solder it with flex wire..  I black taped the solderd ends for good measure..  daniel

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