Well...  I just ordered my set..   love that you get free cars in it!  And ordered a set of UP and a set of CP cars...

Will have to dream about that PRR engine and cars for later...

Thanks Lionel for a fantastic 150th celebration!  Now going back to rewatching 4014 videos!!!!

 

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

I think that Lionel is doing a great job trying to duplicate some historic railroad equipment but it is well before the period that I model. The Amoskeag factory in Manchester, NH produced many 4-4-0's right into the 19th century and they kept getting larger so that there were more than a few of them purchased by the Boston & Maine Railroad and its predecessors and competitors. That later size may be something of interest to me.

Art

B&MRRHS

LCCA

LOTS

I'll clear up the technical/features:

  • Locomotive has motor and headlight LED.
  • Tender has the Legacy electronics. This includes the BEMC, radio board, and track IR.
    • Using the BEMC means the engine will not be speed tuned to be able to lash-up with other types of Legacy locos, but two of these 4-4-0s can be lashed-up. Using the BEMC also means these have DCC capabilities as well as conventional operation.
    • Legacy means 200 speed steps, track IR, lighting features, and more.
    • RUN/PGM switch under toolbox detail

 

The separately sold passenger car that is equipped with sounds will include the following:

  • RSL3 - Legacy RailSounds. Quilling whistle!
  • RUN/PGM switch and volume pot
    • For best operation, the loco and sound car will be programmed as the same TMCC ID number
  • 40mm speaker standard in our Legacy engines. While it's not possible to fit the sounds in the engine/tender, using the sound car allows us to fit in the electronics/speaker that makes Legacy RailSounds better than any other system available.

 

Hope this answers any lingering questions.

Dave

 

Dave Olson

Director of Engineering

Lionel LLC

Landsteiner posted:

" love that you get free cars in it!  "

Didn't see that offer.  Details?

The pre order set at lionel store comes with both engines and a two pack of cars for a penny.  I viewed it as kinda an incentive to order this limited to 150 pieces set!

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

For those who like the idea, but not the price, you can get sounds and command control in a LionChief version of the Promontory locomotives with universal remote for under $500.  Obviously not scale, not brass or diecast.  Not as much detail.  This is the O gauge equivalent of the Bachmann HO set, with a less favorable retail discount structure, I'd guess.

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/products/l-1923080

Am I correct that for the set with two passenger cars at $2199 they expect full payment now for a product not to be delivered until 2020?  Not terribly comfortable with that concept, so I think if I spring for this set,  I'll go through a dealer and pay for the passenger cars when they arrive.

 

Landsteiner posted:

Am I correct that for the set with two passenger cars at $2199 they expect full payment now for a product not to be delivered until 2020?  Not terribly comfortable with that concept, so I think if I spring for this set,  I'll go through a dealer and pay for the passenger cars when they arrive.

 

In my mind, I'm thinking that my credit card would be charged upon shipment; not to be charged now.

That's a good question that may have to wait until Monday and a call to Lionel.  

 

 

RT   

Sad indeed that these new 4-4-0's have no smoke, no engine sounds, no steam whistle, no bell, no voice and are way over priced at $2200 for the pair.  What is inside the tender?  Providing "something" in a trailing car reminds me of the Railsounds box car from yesteryear, not acceptable in today's expected techno world.  Also, where is the history of this occasion?  Much of it belongs in the engines.  Also it should have been provided in depth with the introduction of the product.

Lionel should rethink this product.

Bob R

Bob R posted:

Sad indeed that these new 4-4-0's have no smoke, no engine sounds, no steam whistle, no bell, no voice and are way over priced at $2200 for the pair.   What is inside the tender?  Providing "something" in a trailing car reminds me of the Railsounds box car from yesteryear, not acceptable in today's expected techno world.  Also, where is the history of this occasion?  Much of it belongs in the engines.  Also it should have been provided in depth with the introduction of the product. 

Lionel should rethink this product.

My sentiments exactly.

-Mike

pingal70 posted:

Don't really understand. If sound can be put into an HO or even an N scale loco, why not here? 

Quality expectations. Larger speakers larger drvers, etc.  are used and that gives O better sound reproduction capability; louder and with a much lower htz range than smaller gauges can hope to have. 

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





These models are almost as small as HO gauge locos and no doubt have much larger motors than the HO models,  so these may be a combination of reasons for the lack of space in the loco.  Existing boards in use for sound and command control are designed for much larger locos, and would require costly redesign is another guess.  May be totally wrong, but these seem possibilities.

Landsteiner posted:

Am I correct that for the set with two passenger cars at $2199 they expect full payment now for a product not to be delivered until 2020?  Not terribly comfortable with that concept, so I think if I spring for this set,  I'll go through a dealer and pay for the passenger cars when they arrive.

 

The charge is made when the sets ship in 2020...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

I would actually like to see something produced we could use and model in our lifetime like BF-50-5’s, AF5’s, BC70-6’s and FMC5’s.

Jim, There are still a multitude of brass parts on these locomotives. Steam and sand domes, pilots and more details than I'd like to count. The decision to go die cast on the "large" parts is two-fold: first, the decoration on these locomotives is much more complicated than any other steam locomotive we've done with the possible exception of the Nashville for the Lincoln train. Applying this deco the same way across the entire production run requires the use of paint masks and fixtures. With brass construction, the tolerances simply wouldn't be tight enough to deliver a consistent quality product.

Second, with the size of these locomotives every bit of extra weight we can get on there will help with performance. Space is at a premium on these models as has been discussed at length above. Just enough room in the loco for the can motor, just enough room in the tender for the BEMC board. Down the road, especially with the work being done in engineering our HO line, perhaps we could squeeze more in, but for now while the electronics are getting smaller, we're not there yet to where we can deliver not only features but the quality of features you've come to expect from a LEGACY locomotive in something this size. We've tried to illustrate that with the diagrams and images in the video but I think when people get the chance to see the locomotives first hand that will make the challenges crystal clear.

Of course an added bonus is that we now have tooling for the core of two great 4-4-0 designs that can be used as the starting point for more great models from this period with additional brass add-ons. 

 

To those asking about ordering through Lionelstore.com, payment will not be collected until the items ship. 

Ryan Kunkle

Director of Production, Lionel LLC

  There is a glitch and freeze on the Youtube Video at 16:53-17:10. It did it twice. Not a huge impact info wise, but spoils the close.

Looks nice 😎

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





Conrail6358 posted:

Jim, There are still a multitude of brass parts on these locomotives. Steam and sand domes, pilots and more details than I'd like to count. The decision to go die cast on the "large" parts is two-fold: first, the decoration on these locomotives is much more complicated than any other steam locomotive we've done with the possible exception of the Nashville for the Lincoln train. Applying this deco the same way across the entire production run requires the use of paint masks and fixtures. With brass construction, the tolerances simply wouldn't be tight enough to deliver a consistent quality product.

Second, with the size of these locomotives every bit of extra weight we can get on there will help with performance. Space is at a premium on these models as has been discussed at length above. Just enough room in the loco for the can motor, just enough room in the tender for the BEMC board. Down the road, especially with the work being done in engineering our HO line, perhaps we could squeeze more in, but for now while the electronics are getting smaller, we're not there yet to where we can deliver not only features but the quality of features you've come to expect from a LEGACY locomotive in something this size. We've tried to illustrate that with the diagrams and images in the video but I think when people get the chance to see the locomotives first hand that will make the challenges crystal clear.

Of course an added bonus is that we now have tooling for the core of two great 4-4-0 designs that can be used as the starting point for more great models from this period with additional brass add-ons. 

 

To those asking about ordering through Lionelstore.com, payment will not be collected until the items ship. 

Ryan, any plans for scale Texas and General offerings? 

Steve

So, after some reflection,  I placed an order with my local store for the traditional line LionChief General Set version as shown on pages 70-71 in the Lionel 2019 Vol. 1 Catalog. 

I get both Promontory Point locos in the traditional size, etc., loaded with features, and all for half the price of one new hybrid model. What’s not to like?

Different strokes for different folks. I salute Lionel for stepping up with alternative offerings to commemorate this historic milestone and give its customers a choice in how to participate.

Well done!

romiller49 posted:

Hey Bob R, that’s what makes this a great hobby. If you don’t like an offering then do as you have decided and simply don’t make a purchase.

I get it that BOB R and EDDIE G can't afford the product, I can't afford everything either, but what I don't understand is why anyone would post something such as "are way over priced at $2200 for the pair".

To make your post really useful "to support your point as well as for Lionel to understand what customers such as yourself want" is to provide feedback on what you do think the price should be.

Why even take the time to post your position when you can type a few more words and get your message to the staff of the company that can make the change?

So if the engine is too expensive at 1100 each or 2200 for the pair, then how much should the engines cost? Really, how do you come up with your number, even if just for forum discussion?

Let just assume to buy the legacy electronics is roughly 300 dollars, as a starting point, new tooling, engineering, research, marketing, manufacturing, distribution, profit per unit etc. all a have cost. Given the limited units to be made, and I think 1100 is probably a little low (based only on what I have read so far).

BOB R and EDDIE G, what is your cost breakout on what the price of the units should be?

Charlie

Conrail6358 posted:

Jim, There are still a multitude of brass parts on these locomotives. Steam and sand domes, pilots and more details than I'd like to count. The decision to go die cast on the "large" parts is two-fold: first, the decoration on these locomotives is much more complicated than any other steam locomotive we've done with the possible exception of the Nashville for the Lincoln train. Applying this deco the same way across the entire production run requires the use of paint masks and fixtures. With brass construction, the tolerances simply wouldn't be tight enough to deliver a consistent quality product.

Second, with the size of these locomotives every bit of extra weight we can get on there will help with performance. Space is at a premium on these models as has been discussed at length above. Just enough room in the loco for the can motor, just enough room in the tender for the BEMC board. Down the road, especially with the work being done in engineering our HO line, perhaps we could squeeze more in, but for now while the electronics are getting smaller, we're not there yet to where we can deliver not only features but the quality of features you've come to expect from a LEGACY locomotive in something this size. We've tried to illustrate that with the diagrams and images in the video but I think when people get the chance to see the locomotives first hand that will make the challenges crystal clear.

Of course an added bonus is that we now have tooling for the core of two great 4-4-0 designs that can be used as the starting point for more great models from this period with additional brass add-ons. 

 

To those asking about ordering through Lionelstore.com, payment will not be collected until the items ship. 

Don’t get me wrong. I prefer diecast steamers. It just caught me by surprise when I heard these would be brass hybrid models. I also welcome the possibilities of more 19th-century steamers — especially a scale General and the Wm. Crooks. 

Jim R. 

I for one am excited to see these being offered.  As for the no sound and smoke in the locos, I totally get this after installing DCC with sound in a Lionel 0-6-0 Dockside.  It almost doesn't fit!  And do you have any idea how much it costs to develop a micro multi layered PCBA?  The fact they did what they did with Legacy is amazing!  After getting to see 4014 up close and personal this last week, and then seeing this announcement on the drive home, this has been a great week.  I love these older and more colorful style steamers, and am happy to see some that won't look like cheap plastic toys and are still not super expensive.  I saw those LGB ones this week at Ogden, they look like big plastic trains, not worth the $10k they are asking, IMHO.  So instead of saying only fools will spend that, I'll just simply not buy myself some.  As for these Lionel ones, I'm going to order them as I think they are worth my hard earned money.  An I hope Lionel does make some freight and other cars for them in the future, as well as other styles of early locomotives, not just 4-4-0s.

 

Now about DCC on them.  They really have DCC?  What about the sound cars, will they also respond to DCC?  And will you publish the CVs in the manual, or on the website?  Will you be able to adjust the CVs?  I'll be running MTH PS3 and LokSound L equipped locomotives with DCC, and would love to be able to program them all to the same function keys on my remote, as well as speed match them.

And another question for Dave since he said they have DCC because of the BEMC.  Does this mean that other recent BEMC locomotives like the Heisler and the LionMaster Class A also have DCC already and I can run them that way? That's make me so happy I wouldn't have to take them off the track when I switch between the two command systems (Legacy and DCC.).  I would love if all Legacy locomotives came with DCC going forward.  Legacy is still my favorite command system, but DCC is wonderful for my older locomotives to upgrade to command from conventional.

To be honest, I was excited when I heard about these engines, but alas, price and lack of sound and smoke was a disappointment. They would have been 99% displayed and run on special occasions only. Been wanting to make a diorama for years on this historic event.

But, mostly because of cost. I have decided and because of mostly not a full time engine on the layout, I'm going with the HO engines and add the cars I need for display and a small diorama of the event.

Kudos to those that will purchase these and hopefully come problem free.

sinclair posted: 

Now about DCC on them.  They really have DCC?  What about the sound cars, will they also respond to DCC?  And will you publish the CVs in the manual, or on the website?  Will you be able to adjust the CVs?  I'll be running MTH PS3 and LokSound L equipped locomotives with DCC, and would love to be able to program them all to the same function keys on my remote, as well as speed match them.

And another question for Dave since he said they have DCC because of the BEMC.  Does this mean that other recent BEMC locomotives like the Heisler and the LionMaster Class A also have DCC already and I can run them that way? That's make me so happy I wouldn't have to take them off the track when I switch between the two command systems (Legacy and DCC.).  I would love if all Legacy locomotives came with DCC going forward.  Legacy is still my favorite command system, but DCC is wonderful for my older locomotives to upgrade to command from conventional.

Yes Dave, please tells us more if these can be run with DCC. To me that would be a huge game changer, eclipsing wi-fi or bluetooth as it would allow adding custom features to our engines.

Pete 

@Conrail6358

Ryan I appreciated your historical synopsis at the outset of your presentation.  It was very well stated.   I also appreciate the attention to detail on this project.  The image of this locomotive next to the O gauge General really demonstrated how small this engine is.  Clearly that made this project very challenging.

I do not appreciate the all too common negativity posted by those not interested in the locomotive.  You don't like something?  You can't afford something?  That is fine, but why are you compelled to tell the world?  It is not like those posts offered constructive criticism, just a bunch of complaining.   

I hope this project is a success for you and Lionel.

kevin

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