Lionel's Big Announcement 5/10 - 150 Years in the Making

Ryan:

I'm looking forward to tomorrow!

Neal Jeter

I have a very good idea, and I hope to see Dave smiling next to you Ryan.

Ryan....how about someone at Lionel post a link here since a large number of the forum folks don't do FB and still fewer in recent months with what has been happening in social media....THIS is the place to post your video!!

I enjoy a good product tease (à la Menards).  But I'll have to wait for the online write-up since I don't do facebook or any other social media.  _{To finesse Craignor's earlier post}, I hope this Lionel announcement is with the same get it done spirit, commitment, planning, execution and May 10, 1869 completion of the Transcontinental Railroad.

Thank you for that, Alan!

Since the announcement is most likely a live stream the best you will get here is a link to the video.  You do not need to be a Facebook user to access the Lionel page and watch the video.  I'm sure one of our members will post the link after the live announcement.

All I know is that PRR 4-4-0 steamer better look as close to scale as possible but I can't believe no rail sounds!

I was shocked to hear that they weren't going to have sounds. "It won't fit" is a poor excuse IMHO. Perhaps they should have retained John Z. He was making good strides at making all of the electronics smaller. This is one of the problems with proprietary electronics. No competition or incentive to improve. DCC is much smaller with equal sound quality, better motor control, and also has the ability to control smoke units.

"you'll see some new surprises tomorrow!"

If you want to surprise me, include the "1776."

Brass Hybrid 4-4-0s like they said in the York video, but can't wait to see them.

OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Ryan....how about someone at Lionel post a link here since a large number of the forum folks don't do FB and still fewer in recent months with what has been happening in social media....THIS is the place to post your video!!

A wise idea, I have banned FB, Instagribe, and Tweety bird in my kingdom anyone caught with any of that social crap on my infrastructure in my kingdom will be banished to the dungeons.

So saith I king John

Expect it will look something like this in O scale, but with a bit more detail and accuracy then my painted up O scale models;

Partnership with Menards?

https://www.lionelstore.com/category/American-4-4-0

On right now ....

https://www.facebook.com/Lione...os/2309473385985682/

Conrail6358 posted:

This has certainly been an exciting week in railroading and a thrill for any of us in the hobby. Don't worry, we're taking lots of notes back here and have "boots on the ground" gathering more information for us for a lot of upcoming announcements. But while the "big locos" are getting all the attention, we've got another date-appropriate new product announcement to make! 

We've been dropping plenty of hints, so I don't think there is too much doubt as to what's behind the blue curtain on Lionelstore.com - but even if you've been following closely, I promise you'll see some new surprises tomorrow!  Since our soft announcement at the National Toy Train Museum last month, we have made some amazing upgrades and with the help of new historical data will have the most accurately decorated models of these famous locomotives ever produced. To get the most information possible, you're best source will be our Facebook Live presentation tomorrow morning (5/10) at 9 AM Eastern. (That will give you all plenty of time to pop your next bowl of popcorn for the other big events out west later that day!) I've got a lot of great new information to cover, so please join in!  The video will be available on Facebook afterwards for review, and I'm sure someone will be kind enough to copy a link or upload here as well for those who don't Facebook.

Happy railroading everybody!

Thanks for notifying the forum about the announcement.  I would not have been aware without your post.  I think it's great when you and Dave engage with the group here.  Inevitably, there will always be a vocal minority of detractors that probably don't have first hand experience with your products anyway.

The 4-4-0s look great and I'm happy to see that you guys are producing them.   

kj356 posted:

Expect it will look something like this in O scale, but with a bit more detail and accuracy then my painted up O scale models;

Closer to "prototype" than you may think.

Back in 1969, the UP "borrowed" the V&T 22 (Inyo) and 18 (Dayton) to stand in for the 119 and Jupiter:

(Trains Magazine 05/69)

Rusty

For those who don't "social media" (funny, I always considered a forum like this to be VERY social...) here is a link to the video from our YouTube page: https://youtu.be/Tt3d3EgAjT0. 

Dave and I will be doing a follow up on our next Ryan&Dave show as well and you'll see these featured in Volume 2 this July of course.

A few highlights for those who want the Cliff's Notes version before getting back to 24/7 Big Boy video marathons:

7 4-4-0s (including 2 pilot models) with

• LEGACY, DCC and conventional operation
• Die-cast and brass construction
• All new tooling
• Designed from the original O'Connor Engineering replica drawings
• New decoration schemes for 119, Jupiter and Pennsylvania all based on the latest historical research and analysis from the leading historians on the subject (We're actually going to backdate the PRR a few more years for a more polished look based on a call I had just last night, look for some updated art on that one next week. She's going to be stunning!!!!)
• Leviathan and York based off of current replica appearance
• Each model uniquely numbered
• Built to order

4 Add on passenger car 2 packs - one car equipped with Railsounds so you'll be able to add sound to your train

An additional non-sound 2 pack of Woodruff Sleeping Cars to further expand your trains. All of the cars which don't have sound electronics inside will have interiors with painted figures

All of these products are available for preorder now through lionelstore.com AND through your Lionel dealer. We also have a special limited set (150 pieces) exclusive through our online store. Please go there to see more images and order information. The order window on these will likely close around the first week of August so that we can get this to our factory on time for an anticipated early 2020 delivery.

Whether you decide you have to have one of these for your collection or not, I do hope you'll take a close look at these models. Speaking personally, I've always felt that this era of railroading is one that offers so much potential and reward for modelers and historical interests alike but is too often overshadowed by the later and larger locomotives. The updated color schemes of Jupiter and 119 reflect decades of research by some dedicated and passionate historians, several of whom I've had the pleasure of knowing personally for many years and who were kind enough to lend their latest efforts to us for this project. For our part, we have worked with our design and manufacturing teams for more than a year to bring you the most accurate models possible of these important pieces of our history. Like the originals, they are works of art - well tuned to the art of work. The first five were ordered the minute this project got the highball...     And with the requisite emoji now attached, it's time to step off my soapbox and get back to work.

No more Eureka Palisades? Was excited for that one

Well at least the price of the PRR 4-4-0 is cheaper than the SMR D8...

The question will be will the Lionel Coach sets [a Different Model Coach] look as good as the SMR coach sets!

Surefire posted:

No more Eureka Palisades? Was excited for that one

The Eureka is a 3' Gauge locomotive.

Rusty

I took these pictures in 2003 of the York. The York is in New Freedom, PA just a short drive from the York fairgrounds.

http://www.steamintohistory.com/

Scott Smith

I waited for this announcement before choosing to comment.

Detail appears to be nicely done on the passenger cars.

If HO can be made with sounds and smoke, then this could have.

At the very least,  a smoke unit could have been added (they were 30 years ago) and Legacy instead of Railsounds 4, in the passenger car.

Good marketing....now you have to buy and additional product to get sound.

Thank you, Ryan, for posting that YouTube link.

OK; since they've got the base models/framework complete, how long before a repro of the loco in Back to the Future III?

No smoke and optional sound?

Soo Line posted:

I waited for this announcement before choosing to comment.

Detail appears to be nicely done on the passenger cars.

If HO can be made with sounds and smoke, then this could have.

At the very least,  a smoke unit could have been added (they were 30 years ago) and Legacy instead of Railsounds 4, in the passenger car.

Good marketing....now you have to buy and additional product to get sound.

 

Soo,

I’m with you!  They should have “Smoke” & definitely Legacy Railsounds !!!

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by the no sound and smoke situation.  Lionelacknowledged this when they did the "soft" announcement at the TCA Museum during York week.

The adding of sound in a car is new, but I can't imagine anyone legitimately thought Lionel was going to change their mind and decide it was possible to put sound in the engines themselves when they said it would not happen only less than a month ago.

I may go for a set of the 2 main engines and a few cars.  We'll see.  The only negative with the adding of sounds in the car, is now one will not be interior detailed, since it obviously has to hide the electronics. 

A big part of the attraction to items like this for me (Heritage Series -  BFOC, John Bull, etc.) is the details on the pieces.  Having one look out of place due to the sound electronics being hidden inside is a compromise I'll have to think about.

-Dave

The posting from Ryan above mentions sounds in the coaches (I would have to assume the CP AND UP sets.  The Lionelstore descriptions do not mention any sounds at all, or at least I didn't see that.

Ryan  Would you please verify if there is another set to be listed with sounds or if this is an oversight to be corrected.

Thanks

Gray Lackey

Soo Line posted:

I waited for this announcement before choosing to comment.

Detail appears to be nicely done on the passenger cars.

If HO can be made with sounds and smoke, then this could have.

At the very least,  a smoke unit could have been added (they were 30 years ago) and Legacy instead of Railsounds 4, in the passenger car.

Good marketing....now you have to buy and additional product to get sound.

 

I agree in general 

But speaker size means allot, and placing it in the passenger car will probably give better sound. However, I am not that interested in the passenger cars and would be more interested in period freight like flatcars and other types. That leaves the engine soundless. Sound could be included in a boxcar, perhaps the next catalog will have matching freight.

Dave

It's great that Lionel notified the OGR forum personally.  They could have just treated the OGR  market just like the rest of the market.

Good marketing to put the sound car as an add on.  That way not everyone has to buy it.

It never hurts to be thankful.

Love the engines and cars and a great job by Lionel. I would love to have one but out of my price range.

For those getting them, good luck I think they will be a treasure to own. 

Dave

I'm very excited for these models, they look beautiful! Now the decision is which one to buy! The lack of smoke and sounds I'm not surprised about since they are such small prototypes, most other 4-4-0s in O gauge are either oversized prototypes or repainted generals (other than SMR) so it's nice to see brand new accurate locos on the market! 

Nice offerings for sure! On the fence due to $$. Debating getting something.

i don't have time to watch the video right now.  How much $$ for the engines?

$1100 each.  Available from dealers or Lionel.  Don't know if dealers will cut you a discount.  Rather doubtful .

Interesting set.  Does anyone know if the legacy system on these includes the IR sensor? I do not see any indication in the descriptions. It really would be nice to run them on a controlled layout.

Bachmann is offering in HO the UP and CP 4-4-0s probably over size but with DCC and I think sound for less than 1/4 the price of a Lionel O model. I know they are partly brass but Legacy electronic must be large compared to DCC.  

Rusty Traque posted:

Surefire posted:

No more Eureka Palisades? Was excited for that one

The Eureka is a 3' Gauge locomotive.

Rusty

I'm well aware. 

It was mentioned as an option in the TCA presentation. 

Well...  I just ordered my set..   love that you get free cars in it!  And ordered a set of UP and a set of CP cars...

Will have to dream about that PRR engine and cars for later...

Thanks Lionel for a fantastic 150th celebration!  Now going back to rewatching 4014 videos!!!!

" love that you get free cars in it!  "

Didn't see that offer.  Details?

"Does anyone know if the legacy system on these includes the IR sensor?"

Ryan says "yes" in his presentation.

I think that Lionel is doing a great job trying to duplicate some historic railroad equipment but it is well before the period that I model. The Amoskeag factory in Manchester, NH produced many 4-4-0's right into the 19th century and they kept getting larger so that there were more than a few of them purchased by the Boston & Maine Railroad and its predecessors and competitors. That later size may be something of interest to me.

Landsteiner posted:

" love that you get free cars in it!  "

Didn't see that offer.  Details?

See the Lionelstore.com website.  Two free passenger cars.  Really looks attractive.

https://www.lionelstore.com/Li...nental-150th-Special

Landsteiner posted:

"Does anyone know if the legacy system on these includes the IR sensor?"

Ryan says "yes" in his presentation.

No mention of legacy, just tmcc with wireless tether. 

I'll clear up the technical/features:

• Locomotive has motor and headlight LED.
• Tender has the Legacy electronics. This includes the BEMC, radio board, and track IR.
  • Using the BEMC means the engine will not be speed tuned to be able to lash-up with other types of Legacy locos, but two of these 4-4-0s can be lashed-up. Using the BEMC also means these have DCC capabilities as well as conventional operation.
  • Legacy means 200 speed steps, track IR, lighting features, and more.
  • RUN/PGM switch under toolbox detail

The separately sold passenger car that is equipped with sounds will include the following:

• RSL3 - Legacy RailSounds. Quilling whistle!
• RUN/PGM switch and volume pot
  • For best operation, the loco and sound car will be programmed as the same TMCC ID number
• 40mm speaker standard in our Legacy engines. While it's not possible to fit the sounds in the engine/tender, using the sound car allows us to fit in the electronics/speaker that makes Legacy RailSounds better than any other system available.

Hope this answers any lingering questions.

Dave

Great!  Thanks Dave!  Excited that we get sounds!

Landsteiner posted:

" love that you get free cars in it!  "

Didn't see that offer.  Details?

The pre order set at lionel store comes with both engines and a two pack of cars for a penny.  I viewed it as kinda an incentive to order this limited to 150 pieces set!

For those who like the idea, but not the price, you can get sounds and command control in a LionChief version of the Promontory locomotives with universal remote for under $500.  Obviously not scale, not brass or diecast.  Not as much detail.  This is the O gauge equivalent of the Bachmann HO set, with a less favorable retail discount structure, I'd guess.

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/products/l-1923080

Am I correct that for the set with two passenger cars at $2199 they expect full payment now for a product not to be delivered until 2020?  Not terribly comfortable with that concept, so I think if I spring for this set,  I'll go through a dealer and pay for the passenger cars when they arrive.

Landsteiner posted:

Am I correct that for the set with two passenger cars at $2199 they expect full payment now for a product not to be delivered until 2020?  Not terribly comfortable with that concept, so I think if I spring for this set,  I'll go through a dealer and pay for the passenger cars when they arrive.

 

In my mind, I'm thinking that my credit card would be charged upon shipment; not to be charged now.

That's a good question that may have to wait until Monday and a call to Lionel.  

Sad indeed that these new 4-4-0's have no smoke, no engine sounds, no steam whistle, no bell, no voice and are way over priced at $2200 for the pair.  What is inside the tender?  Providing "something" in a trailing car reminds me of the Railsounds box car from yesteryear, not acceptable in today's expected techno world.  Also, where is the history of this occasion?  Much of it belongs in the engines.  Also it should have been provided in depth with the introduction of the product.

Lionel should rethink this product.

Bob R posted:

Sad indeed that these new 4-4-0's have no smoke, no engine sounds, no steam whistle, no bell, no voice and are way over priced at $2200 for the pair.   What is inside the tender?  Providing "something" in a trailing car reminds me of the Railsounds box car from yesteryear, not acceptable in today's expected techno world.  Also, where is the history of this occasion?  Much of it belongs in the engines.  Also it should have been provided in depth with the introduction of the product. 

Lionel should rethink this product.

My sentiments exactly.

I agree with BOB also. I wonder who came up with that idea.

pingal70 posted:

Don't really understand. If sound can be put into an HO or even an N scale loco, why not here? 

Quality expectations. Larger speakers larger drvers, etc.  are used and that gives O better sound reproduction capability; louder and with a much lower htz range than smaller gauges can hope to have. 

These models are almost as small as HO gauge locos and no doubt have much larger motors than the HO models,  so these may be a combination of reasons for the lack of space in the loco.  Existing boards in use for sound and command control are designed for much larger locos, and would require costly redesign is another guess.  May be totally wrong, but these seem possibilities.

Little overpriced, I will wait for the 300th Anniversary Set.

Chris S.

Landsteiner posted:

Am I correct that for the set with two passenger cars at $2199 they expect full payment now for a product not to be delivered until 2020?  Not terribly comfortable with that concept, so I think if I spring for this set,  I'll go through a dealer and pay for the passenger cars when they arrive.

 

The charge is made when the sets ship in 2020...

Thanks. That’s better.😀

I would actually like to see something produced we could use and model in our lifetime like BF-50-5’s, AF5’s, BC70-6’s and FMC5’s.

One thing caught me by surprise in the Facebook Live presentation.

@Dave Olson and @Conrail6358, at about the 4:56 mark, you say the boiler, cab and tender will be diecast construction. Usually, with brass hybrids, the body is brass and the frame is diecast.

So what’s to be made of brass on these locomotives?

Another major manufacturer was going to announce a Golden Spike engine set, but it wouldn't be delivered until 2022.

Jim R. posted:

So what’s to be made of brass on these locomotives?

The handrails?

Jim, There are still a multitude of brass parts on these locomotives. Steam and sand domes, pilots and more details than I'd like to count. The decision to go die cast on the "large" parts is two-fold: first, the decoration on these locomotives is much more complicated than any other steam locomotive we've done with the possible exception of the Nashville for the Lincoln train. Applying this deco the same way across the entire production run requires the use of paint masks and fixtures. With brass construction, the tolerances simply wouldn't be tight enough to deliver a consistent quality product.

Second, with the size of these locomotives every bit of extra weight we can get on there will help with performance. Space is at a premium on these models as has been discussed at length above. Just enough room in the loco for the can motor, just enough room in the tender for the BEMC board. Down the road, especially with the work being done in engineering our HO line, perhaps we could squeeze more in, but for now while the electronics are getting smaller, we're not there yet to where we can deliver not only features but the quality of features you've come to expect from a LEGACY locomotive in something this size. We've tried to illustrate that with the diagrams and images in the video but I think when people get the chance to see the locomotives first hand that will make the challenges crystal clear.

Of course an added bonus is that we now have tooling for the core of two great 4-4-0 designs that can be used as the starting point for more great models from this period with additional brass add-ons. 

To those asking about ordering through Lionelstore.com, payment will not be collected until the items ship. 

  There is a glitch and freeze on the Youtube Video at 16:53-17:10. It did it twice. Not a huge impact info wise, but spoils the close.

Looks nice 😎

Conrail6358 posted:

Jim, There are still a multitude of brass parts on these locomotives. Steam and sand domes, pilots and more details than I'd like to count. The decision to go die cast on the "large" parts is two-fold: first, the decoration on these locomotives is much more complicated than any other steam locomotive we've done with the possible exception of the Nashville for the Lincoln train. Applying this deco the same way across the entire production run requires the use of paint masks and fixtures. With brass construction, the tolerances simply wouldn't be tight enough to deliver a consistent quality product.

Second, with the size of these locomotives every bit of extra weight we can get on there will help with performance. Space is at a premium on these models as has been discussed at length above. Just enough room in the loco for the can motor, just enough room in the tender for the BEMC board. Down the road, especially with the work being done in engineering our HO line, perhaps we could squeeze more in, but for now while the electronics are getting smaller, we're not there yet to where we can deliver not only features but the quality of features you've come to expect from a LEGACY locomotive in something this size. We've tried to illustrate that with the diagrams and images in the video but I think when people get the chance to see the locomotives first hand that will make the challenges crystal clear.

Of course an added bonus is that we now have tooling for the core of two great 4-4-0 designs that can be used as the starting point for more great models from this period with additional brass add-ons. 

 

To those asking about ordering through Lionelstore.com, payment will not be collected until the items ship. 

Ryan, any plans for scale Texas and General offerings? 

Hey Bob, that’s what makes this a great hobby. If you don’t like an offering then do as you have decided and simply don’t make a purchase.

romiller49 posted:

Hey Bob, that’s what makes this a great hobby. If you don’t like an offering then do as you have decided and simply don’t make a purchase.

Thanks Rod...  i know you are talking to that other Bob...  well said...

For $10,000 you can get LGB (Marklin's) version.

https://www.lgb.com/products/d...pi1%5Bsearchres%5D=1

So, after some reflection,  I placed an order with my local store for the traditional line LionChief General Set version as shown on pages 70-71 in the Lionel 2019 Vol. 1 Catalog. 

I get both Promontory Point locos in the traditional size, etc., loaded with features, and all for half the price of one new hybrid model. What’s not to like?

Different strokes for different folks. I salute Lionel for stepping up with alternative offerings to commemorate this historic milestone and give its customers a choice in how to participate.

Well done!

Bob R, I bet there are enough buyers that there is a sell-out.  But hey, I did the same thing:  charge what the traffic will bear.

romiller49 posted:

Hey Bob R, that’s what makes this a great hobby. If you don’t like an offering then do as you have decided and simply don’t make a purchase.

I get it that BOB R and EDDIE G can't afford the product, I can't afford everything either, but what I don't understand is why anyone would post something such as "are way over priced at $2200 for the pair".

To make your post really useful "to support your point as well as for Lionel to understand what customers such as yourself want" is to provide feedback on what you do think the price should be.

Why even take the time to post your position when you can type a few more words and get your message to the staff of the company that can make the change?

So if the engine is too expensive at 1100 each or 2200 for the pair, then how much should the engines cost? Really, how do you come up with your number, even if just for forum discussion?

Let just assume to buy the legacy electronics is roughly 300 dollars, as a starting point, new tooling, engineering, research, marketing, manufacturing, distribution, profit per unit etc. all a have cost. Given the limited units to be made, and I think 1100 is probably a little low (based only on what I have read so far).

BOB R and EDDIE G, what is your cost breakout on what the price of the units should be?

Charlie

Conrail6358 posted:

Jim, There are still a multitude of brass parts on these locomotives. Steam and sand domes, pilots and more details than I'd like to count. The decision to go die cast on the "large" parts is two-fold: first, the decoration on these locomotives is much more complicated than any other steam locomotive we've done with the possible exception of the Nashville for the Lincoln train. Applying this deco the same way across the entire production run requires the use of paint masks and fixtures. With brass construction, the tolerances simply wouldn't be tight enough to deliver a consistent quality product.

Second, with the size of these locomotives every bit of extra weight we can get on there will help with performance. Space is at a premium on these models as has been discussed at length above. Just enough room in the loco for the can motor, just enough room in the tender for the BEMC board. Down the road, especially with the work being done in engineering our HO line, perhaps we could squeeze more in, but for now while the electronics are getting smaller, we're not there yet to where we can deliver not only features but the quality of features you've come to expect from a LEGACY locomotive in something this size. We've tried to illustrate that with the diagrams and images in the video but I think when people get the chance to see the locomotives first hand that will make the challenges crystal clear.

Of course an added bonus is that we now have tooling for the core of two great 4-4-0 designs that can be used as the starting point for more great models from this period with additional brass add-ons. 

 

To those asking about ordering through Lionelstore.com, payment will not be collected until the items ship. 

Don’t get me wrong. I prefer diecast steamers. It just caught me by surprise when I heard these would be brass hybrid models. I also welcome the possibilities of more 19th-century steamers — especially a scale General and the Wm. Crooks. 

I for one am excited to see these being offered.  As for the no sound and smoke in the locos, I totally get this after installing DCC with sound in a Lionel 0-6-0 Dockside.  It almost doesn't fit!  And do you have any idea how much it costs to develop a micro multi layered PCBA?  The fact they did what they did with Legacy is amazing!  After getting to see 4014 up close and personal this last week, and then seeing this announcement on the drive home, this has been a great week.  I love these older and more colorful style steamers, and am happy to see some that won't look like cheap plastic toys and are still not super expensive.  I saw those LGB ones this week at Ogden, they look like big plastic trains, not worth the $10k they are asking, IMHO.  So instead of saying only fools will spend that, I'll just simply not buy myself some.  As for these Lionel ones, I'm going to order them as I think they are worth my hard earned money.  An I hope Lionel does make some freight and other cars for them in the future, as well as other styles of early locomotives, not just 4-4-0s.

Now about DCC on them.  They really have DCC?  What about the sound cars, will they also respond to DCC?  And will you publish the CVs in the manual, or on the website?  Will you be able to adjust the CVs?  I'll be running MTH PS3 and LokSound L equipped locomotives with DCC, and would love to be able to program them all to the same function keys on my remote, as well as speed match them.

And another question for Dave since he said they have DCC because of the BEMC.  Does this mean that other recent BEMC locomotives like the Heisler and the LionMaster Class A also have DCC already and I can run them that way? That's make me so happy I wouldn't have to take them off the track when I switch between the two command systems (Legacy and DCC.).  I would love if all Legacy locomotives came with DCC going forward.  Legacy is still my favorite command system, but DCC is wonderful for my older locomotives to upgrade to command from conventional.

To be honest, I was excited when I heard about these engines, but alas, price and lack of sound and smoke was a disappointment. They would have been 99% displayed and run on special occasions only. Been wanting to make a diorama for years on this historic event.

But, mostly because of cost. I have decided and because of mostly not a full time engine on the layout, I'm going with the HO engines and add the cars I need for display and a small diorama of the event.

Kudos to those that will purchase these and hopefully come problem free.

sinclair posted: 

Now about DCC on them.  They really have DCC?  What about the sound cars, will they also respond to DCC?  And will you publish the CVs in the manual, or on the website?  Will you be able to adjust the CVs?  I'll be running MTH PS3 and LokSound L equipped locomotives with DCC, and would love to be able to program them all to the same function keys on my remote, as well as speed match them.

And another question for Dave since he said they have DCC because of the BEMC.  Does this mean that other recent BEMC locomotives like the Heisler and the LionMaster Class A also have DCC already and I can run them that way? That's make me so happy I wouldn't have to take them off the track when I switch between the two command systems (Legacy and DCC.).  I would love if all Legacy locomotives came with DCC going forward.  Legacy is still my favorite command system, but DCC is wonderful for my older locomotives to upgrade to command from conventional.

Yes Dave, please tells us more if these can be run with DCC. To me that would be a huge game changer, eclipsing wi-fi or bluetooth as it would allow adding custom features to our engines.

Pete 

Was the Lincoln Funeral Train tooling used for the diecast shell, tender or passenger cars ? Looks similar.

@Conrail6358

Ryan I appreciated your historical synopsis at the outset of your presentation.  It was very well stated.   I also appreciate the attention to detail on this project.  The image of this locomotive next to the O gauge General really demonstrated how small this engine is.  Clearly that made this project very challenging.

I do not appreciate the all too common negativity posted by those not interested in the locomotive.  You don't like something?  You can't afford something?  That is fine, but why are you compelled to tell the world?  It is not like those posts offered constructive criticism, just a bunch of complaining.   

I hope this project is a success for you and Lionel.

kevin

@Conrail6358 Ryan, took me a few days to see the presentation, great by the way. You said you'll do a follow up on the next Ryan & Dave show and these will be featured in the V2 catalog out in July. So this would mean production time should yield most likely next year?

I really like that these are scale and are tiny to the locomotives we are used to seeing. I'm slightly disappointed that there's no smoke, but given how little space is there I can understand why. I'm sure that if there was a way to get a smoke unit in there, it would be. Can't wait to see the next Ryan & Dave show to give more info on these.

I've been waiting for what seems like an eternity for Lionel to finally produce a true to scale 4-4-0!  I've read all of the above discussions regarding the lack of smoke a sound from the engine.  It is very obvious, that many on this site lack the knowledge needed to discuss such a subject in any detail, yet they elect to pipe in the loudest regarding their notion of perceived short comings.  

Of those who believe Lionel could use HO boards and sounds in a O Gauge model can't be serious.   Those boards aren't designed to carry the loads that an O gauge model would need to operate the functionality you so desire nor the sound system you are seeking.  Also have you ever looked at a REAL 4-4-O and compared it to late 40's engine?   If so you would have noted how much smaller these machines were than their more modern counterpart.  And in O Scale they will look more like something between S Scale and HO.  Thus the available space for electronics' is severely limited.

Lionel indeed could have spent a lot more money on the project trying to squeeze everything in, but would you be will to pay for the significantly increased product development costs?  I think not.   From what I've seen of their product presentation it looks like to me that they've spent a great deal of time and energy in developing a true scale model of these two iconic locomotives.  Many kudos to them for taking on such a project.

I look forward to seeing these and picking one up as they will look great on a layout.  The inclusion of "brass" piping and detail is a huge plus in my book.   They've tried to capture the look and feel of the actual machine from a long ago era.  

Good going Lionel, and don't pay any heed to the naysayers on this website.  Just keep up the good work you are doing.  

Think and act positively and good things will come to pass.  This is true for all things in life.

Well, I ignore the usual anti circle L posters....

The good news is we all get to have an opinion...

The Lionel two pack set will most certainly sell out, with just the 150 being offered...  its fantastic to get both golden spike engines being offered with the latest and most accurate decorations and with two FREE passenger cars!  I personally know of 5 sets selling in the first few minutes, and i know several other friends of mine will no doubt be ordering...  UP fans and collectors...

I think the pricing is just as i expected to pay.  These are ONE TIME offerings.  Highly detailed SCALE engines.  I am very much looking forward to these...

My prediction: These innovative items will sell out--all of them--well before they reach U.S. shores. Although costly, the price one is willing to pay is based on how badly one wants the item (I would like to have both the Jupiter and the 119 myself) and how much one is willing to save-up or put aside to get the item. For some, it might just be a matter of reducing the size of their existing collection a bit. I figure if I could sell-off about eight or so of the locomotives I currently have (and Lord knows it would be a good idea to do so), I could pretty much pay for both the locomotives I want. May just elect to follow that route, in fact, but I probably had better not wait too long. With just 150 of the two-packs being offered, I don't imagine there will be any available for ordering by the end of this month, if not much sooner.

Sad day indeed when both sides of whether to purchase or not these or other offerings, be it Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc.. Only the voices of those that will purchase should be heard on these matters and offerings. But not those, nor reasoning's behind not purchasing should remain silent.

Sad indeed, especially when this is a "Forum" open to also opinions be they positive or negative.  Either way, the subject of the post and the product success will depend on purchasing and hopefully all those that made the commitment here will post pictures when they arrive.

Super O Bob posted:

Well, I ignore the usual anti circle L lposters...

The good news is we all get to have an opinion...

The Lionel two pack set will most certainly sell out, with just the 150 being offered...  its fantastic to get both golden spike engines being offered with the latest and most accurate decorations and with two FREE passenger cars!  I personally know of 5 sets selling in the first few minutes, and i know several other friends of mine will no doubt be ordering...  UP fans and collectors...

I think the pricing is just as i expected to pay.  These are ONE TIME offerings.  Highly detailed SCALE engines.  I am very much looking forward to these...

 

I applaud Lionel for their effort with these offerings. Considering the cost of Legacy steamers these days, I don’t see the prices as out-of-line. I’m sure those who order from this series will be most pleased with them. The passenger cars look equally fine and priced pretty reasonably, too.

At the same time, I also want to thank Lionel for making a traditional offering of the two historic locos in their popular postwar  “General” style. These are found on pages 70 and 71 of the Lionel 2019 Vol. 1 catalog. $549 for the pair! They are LionChief models. 

I ordered a set of these for myself yesterday from my local train shop.  

I will also get the pair of the  commemorative 6464 style boxcars offered on the same pages as the Generals. 

With all of their 150th products, Lionel is doing an excellent job of remembering this signal event in American history. Kudos to them!

rthomps posted:

On right now ....

https://www.facebook.com/Lione...os/2309473385985682/

Thanks RT for posting.

I'm a big Lionel fan but not much into steam.  I would like to comment on the professionalism of video presentation.  You can certainly see and hear the historian in Ryan come out.  He spoke for 10 minutes straight from memory.  The presentation was refreshing because it was not full of comedy or silly antics.     

Does the BEMC board have legacy cruise control? 

CHARLIE, I can well afford them. I just don't like those engines, and the price is way too high. It depends how many they make if they sell out or not. I wish Lionel good luck with them. If Allan says they will sell out, they will sell out.

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

Does the BEMC board have legacy cruise control? 

It reads Legacy signals and has cruise control but it will not run at the same speed as most all other Legacy engines. It should run together with the other 4-4-0 in this set though. Shouldn't be a big deal. They didn't have SD70s in the 1860s.

Pete

I wish I could purchase these engines, and I applaud Lionel for bringing them out. Just a bit steep for me though. I’m guessing the naysayers can’t afford them, so they bash them to justify their cause. Thank you Lionel for pushing the envelope and trying new and exciting products!

While I don't particularly have very many scale models and these engines are more than what I'd like spend. These are absolutely beautiful locomotives, I don't get all the negative comments!

Also, if you want this set on a budget, Lionel, MTH and others offer models that may or may not be scale but are also very nice. Give it some time, I'm sure Lionel will have LC+ 2.0 version that will cost much less and look almost as good.

I can only already see these locos priced at $500 a pop three to five years after they come out b/c there will be almost no demand for them.

They are historically significant....but they lack too many of what most consumers consider standard features to be very enjoyable to run in 2020 or so, IMHO. 

I suspect that most of these will turn into display pieces.  I also suspect that many people will eventually want to display a more interesting locomotive in time and will eventually stick these back in their box on a shelf, out of sight and mind.

It's a free Country and I hope all that order these enjoy them.  But I won't be one of them. 

It sounds like Lionel is putting together some nice products hear. I would have thought these would have been closer to $1,500 each.

I have only need back to trains for about 4 years and don't trust myself with $1,000+ engines yet. I was planning on going for the LC set and these passenger cars. However, while reading the descriptions on Lionel.com. They have drawbar couplers so they only work with the hybrid engines?

I am hoping maybe they will also offer these with traditional knuckle couplers in the 2019 V2 catalog.  

Per Lionel's description, they are just drawbars.

I understand that they are trying to be historically accurate with these consists.

Mark W.

Looks like my first attempt doesn't display on apple devices.

Mark W

Nice detailed product for those that model the early steam era. Wish Lionel well with these.

"I can only already see these locos priced at $500 a pop three to five years after they come out b/c there will be almost no demand for them."

In general, previous Lionel "Heritage" (or similar) trains/sets have pretty much held their value (you can check it out with some fact-finding) - and certainly not have not decreased by ~60% for un-run sets as you indicate. 

Good thing you're free to put your money elsewhere.

rthomps posted:

"I can only already see these locos priced at $500 a pop three to five years after they come out b/c there will be almost no demand for them."

In general, previous Lionel "Heritage" (or similar) trains/sets have pretty much held their value (you can check it out with some fact-finding) - and certainly not have not decreased by ~60% for un-run sets as you indicate. 

Good thing you're free to put your money elsewhere.

Hey Hoss - why don't we let this play out for five years....and lay off the personal attacks in the meantime?

At this price point and included features these locos are a firm pass for me.  For those of you buying I hope these locos meet your needs but for me, no thanks.

-Greg

Berkshire President posted:

rthomps posted:

"I can only already see these locos priced at $500 a pop three to five years after they come out b/c there will be almost no demand for them."

In general, previous Lionel "Heritage" (or similar) trains/sets have pretty much held their value (you can check it out with some fact-finding) - and certainly not have not decreased by ~60% for un-run sets as you indicate. 

Good thing you're free to put your money elsewhere.

Hey Hoss - why don't we let this play out for five years....and lay off the personal attacks in the meantime?

No personal attack that I can see.  

-Greg

Lionel usually does pretty well with these offerings.  I personally have no interest in one but think it's a pretty interesting offering.  Looking at the comparison that was displayed on the screen of the standard General they put out vs. these models and I can see where there would be issues getting all the electronics inside.  It seems to be much smaller than their usual General release.  I'll take their word for it.  The Pennsy cars though look like they could be pretty nice!

As far as the regular Legacy vs BMF version, I think it will do well in this engine.  I don't believe many folks will be MU'ing these and hopefully they can tweak the speed curve to be more responsive.

rthomps posted:

"I can only already see these locos priced at $500 a pop three to five years after they come out b/c there will be almost no demand for them."

In general, previous Lionel "Heritage" (or similar) trains/sets have pretty much held their value (you can check it out with some fact-finding) - and certainly not have not decreased by ~60% for un-run sets as you indicate. 

Good thing you're free to put your money elsewhere.

I have to disagree.  The Lincoln funeral train set has not only held its value but has gone up (I know I tried to get one).  That is if you can even find one.  And that set had nothing in it.  It was conventional.

These have full Legacy, and Sound in the cars.  So really the only thing is no Smoke.  And I think the massively accurate scale size and details make up for that.  These are really no more expensive than any other legacy engine.  It is just you are getting 2 so it doubles the cost.  

These are not the kind of engines mass produced over and over every few years.  

If they hold their value that's just a bonus.  Most of us buy them for enjoyment & don't care about what they may be worth in the future.

But the painstaking research and details Lionel has put into them is commendable.

For me its a Pass its not for me.  I was hoping for a vision big boy and a vision FEF then that would have been for me , and I would have broken out the wallet for them, But I hope its what everyone wants

fl9turbo2 posted:

For me its a Pass its not for me.  I was hoping for a vision big boy and a vision FEF then that would have been for me , and I would have broken out the wallet for them, But I hope its what everyone wants

They already did a Vision Big Boy.  Did you open up your wallet then?

SandJam posted:

fl9turbo2 posted:

For me its a Pass its not for me.  I was hoping for a vision big boy and a vision FEF then that would have been for me , and I would have broken out the wallet for them, But I hope its what everyone wants

They already did a Vision Big Boy.  Did you open up your wallet then?

 

I have the big boy not the 4014  I was hoping for a oil fired 4014 and a vision FEF

Looks like a beautiful set.  I went ahead and ordered the special with the additional 2 pack on the Lionel Site.  As time rolls, we will see if this has the excitement.  When they are released, I'm sure there will be buyers out there to grab up these as they come out.  Not charging us until they ship is a big "plus".  I'm just thinking of the potential delays we've seen on some items.  Don't have that era on my layout.  Always time for "Frontier Days" and run them through the town on those special holidays.

JDFonz posted:

I wish I could purchase these engines, and I applaud Lionel for bringing them out. Just a bit steep for me though. I’m guessing the naysayers can’t afford them, so they bash them to justify their cause. Thank you Lionel for pushing the envelope and trying new and exciting products!

Too much money for me also.  Otherwise, I would have already placed an order.   Thank Lionel for making these available.  NH Joe

One retailer is apparently offering 5% off the loco and 30% off the passenger cars, plus no sales tax outside the state of the retailer, for those who don't want to order directly from Lionel.  

SandJam posted:

I have to disagree.  The Lincoln funeral train set has not only held its value but has gone up (I know I tried to get one).  That is if you can even find one.  And that set had nothing in it.  It was conventional.

.......................

I don't want to come off as too negative here, but there was a twist to that that burned those of us who "bought in" early on the LFT.

At first offering, the LFT was "only available direct from Lionel" and with no discount whatsoever on the MSRP as a result.

I ordered one engine/car set and 2 sets of the add-on cars.  (MSRP was $800 for the engine with one car and $300 for the 2 car set, IIRC).

Well, after time went on, it turned out Lionel over-estimated the market for these, so they eventually went out to dealers with a bit of a blow out on the pricing.  IIRC, there were dealers selling the basic set with the 2 car add-on for somewhere between $900 and $1k.

So as a previous purchaser of the LFT, that scenario is still in my mind when deciding on these items. 

If ordering through my go-to dealer may result in some small discount on the MSRP, the risk of getting burned in this manner is less, and I am more likely to decide favorably on a purchase.  If it's full MSRP everywhere, then I may be influenced to the "pass" side.

It's not the features included that at all cause hesitation.  All the other Heritage offerings of this type were pretty good, IMO (I think I might have had a few loose figures in one of the 2 packs - while not thrilling, it was not the end of the world).

-Dave

Just order a set of the traditional General 150th cars with LionChief as shown on pages 70-71 of the 2019 catalog. $549 for the PAIR. Voila!  

That’s what I did and it will work great for me. Thanks to Lionel for offering us choices.

The Lionchief set is also a great choice with a special gold remote to go with it.  

You can't lose either way.  

I was considering Northern Central #17 the York but the coaches Lionel is making do not match the new "replica" coaches that the heritage railroad uses. I am not sure which model I will go for now.

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Maybe so. Enjoy it if it ever happens.  It could happen but it also could be wishful thinking. A scale 4-4-0 with those features would be a technical feat, and it also would be amongst the vanishingly rare new tooling in some years from anyone but Lionel.  Thus, personally,  I think I’ll go with an actual product ready for ordering.  In 2020 we'll see which products are a reality.

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Good luck in getting those anytime soon ..........

rthomps posted:

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Good luck in getting those anytime soon ..........

It occurred to me earlier tonight that if Lionel is working towards a scale 4-4-0, MTH probably is too.

I have no brand allegiance. I will be looking out for the best models, with the best features, quality, reliability, and of course price.

The MTH PS3 electronics that fit into the Premier scale GE 44-ton diesel engine model may be just the thing for an MTH scale 4-4-0 steamer.

MELGAR

I placed my PRR order with Charlie Ro. I got a small discount from the price and ordered the PRR coaches and the Woodrow sleeping cars as well.

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.  This plus the timing suggests that MTH isn't making a scale 4-4-0 for the Promontory anniversary to me.  They are much too savvy marketers to announce this project in the Oct 2019 catalog when the event was in May 2019. If you want a three rail O gauge scale loco of these two locos, or one of them, you will likely be buying Lionel products.  

Dave Olson posted:

I'll clear up the technical/features:

• Locomotive has motor and headlight LED.
• Tender has the Legacy electronics. This includes the BEMC, radio board, and track IR.
  • Using the BEMC means the engine will not be speed tuned to be able to lash-up with other types of Legacy locos, but two of these 4-4-0s can be lashed-up. Using the BEMC also means these have DCC capabilities as well as conventional operation.
  • Legacy means 200 speed steps, track IR, lighting features, and more.
  • RUN/PGM switch under toolbox detail

 

The separately sold passenger car that is equipped with sounds will include the following:

• RSL3 - Legacy RailSounds. Quilling whistle!
• RUN/PGM switch and volume pot
  • For best operation, the loco and sound car will be programmed as the same TMCC ID number
• 40mm speaker standard in our Legacy engines. While it's not possible to fit the sounds in the engine/tender, using the sound car allows us to fit in the electronics/speaker that makes Legacy RailSounds better than any other system available.

 

Hope this answers any lingering questions.

Dave

 

Will the Lionel Store Exclusive set come in a special box, or will it just be the 2 engines and cars in their own boxes like the non BTO ones?

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Since they have DCS for HO, not to mention smoke and sound, they may be better positioned with the right sized electronics package to do a scale model of the 4-4-0.

Landsteiner posted:

If you want a three rail O gauge scale loco of these two locos, or one of them, you will likely be buying Lionel products.  

That would be my guess as well, but it's just a guess. Get an order in with your favorite dealer now or just wait until after release when one hits the secondary market. And, of course, there's always the possibility that your dealer may order one or more "extras" if he or she is willing to take a chance. Probably would not be a bad idea.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Since they have DCS for HO, not to mention smoke and sound, they may be better positioned with the right sized electronics package to do a scale model of the 4-4-0.

Wishful thinking.  If MTH started today, by the time the locomotives go through the product development cycle and scheduling, the market passions for a true 1/4" scale Promontory set will have passed and will have likely been satisfied by Lionel's hybrids.

Rusty

Probably true, but they could make them.

Rusty Traque posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Since they have DCS for HO, not to mention smoke and sound, they may be better positioned with the right sized electronics package to do a scale model of the 4-4-0.

Wishful thinking.  If MTH started today, by the time the locomotives go through the product development cycle and scheduling, the market passions for a true 1/4" scale Promontory set will have passed and will have likely been satisfied by Lionel's hybrids.

Rusty

I would think it would be tough getting to reasonable numbers.  The number of buyers has been diluted with the Hybrids and I think the 4-4-0 locomotives are more into a niche market.  Looking at the total numbers for manufacture, the market is not that large.  After all, I would think 150 of the special 2 piece set on the store website would be a brisk seller.  It will be interesting to see how fast they sell.

I purchased the 2 car set.  Wont be here until 2020.  I don't think there is enough market for both.  Maybe MTH can make something with the same splash.  No thuds allowed,

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.

That right there is ominous sounding for my 3-rail friends.

Andre

May have missed it, are the passenger cars brass or plastic ?

laming posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.

That right there is ominous sounding for my 3-rail friends.

Andre

The sky has supposedly been falling on the 3 rail O scale hobby for almost 20 years....yet here we are, with enough people to support Lionel, MTH, and a host of other manufacturers.

Also, think about how much more tooling both Lionel and MTH have now.....compared to what Lionel had as recently as 1990. 

In respectful memory of an old Member who sadly passed away, we're not quite dead yet.

MTH has actually been making 19th century locos for years, including 4-4-0’s with sound and smoke, yeah:

http://mthtrains.com/20-3595-1

I might be a buyer if they would lose the “wireless tether”

 I think that Lionel has offered something nice for the golden spike anniversary, Now lets see if they will do a run of the vision bigboy 4014 with oil tender they have the parts just change the coal tender with the oil fired one from the FEF I still think people would buy it. I know I would

Well, since I'm going to my LTS this weekend, I'll chat with them about these and see what they think. Hopefully they got the press release as sometimes we find out more by rumors than they get in normal communications that should be going through.

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.  This plus the timing suggests that MTH isn't making a scale 4-4-0 for the Promontory anniversary to me.  They are much too savvy marketers to announce this project in the Oct 2019 catalog when the event was in May 2019. If you want a three rail O gauge scale loco of these two locos, or one of them, you will likely be buying Lionel products.  

Actually, I am surprised that Lionel didn’t think far enough ahead to have its offering available now when interest is at its highest. I can understand to some degree the new hybrid line since it is all special order, but the traditional 150th stuff (introduced in the Vol. 1 2019 catalog)  should be in hobby shops right now, not late in the year. 

Dave Warburton posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.  This plus the timing suggests that MTH isn't making a scale 4-4-0 for the Promontory anniversary to me.  They are much too savvy marketers to announce this project in the Oct 2019 catalog when the event was in May 2019. If you want a three rail O gauge scale loco of these two locos, or one of them, you will likely be buying Lionel products.  

Actually, I am surprised that Lionel didn’t think far enough ahead to have its offering available now when interest is at its highest. I can understand to some degree the new hybrid line since it is all special order, but the traditional 150th stuff (introduced in the Vol. 1 2019 catalog)  should be in hobby shops right now, not late in the year. 

I thought the same thing. Lionel cant even show a photo of the loco or a car, just sketches.

I would really like to see Lionel do the Big Boy and the Living Legend..I bet Dave could add some great smoke features

Berkshire President posted:

The sky has supposedly been falling on the 3 rail O scale hobby for almost 20 years....yet here we are, with enough people to support Lionel, MTH, and a host of other manufacturers.

Also, think about how much more tooling both Lionel and MTH have now.....compared to what Lionel had as recently as 1990. 

In respectful memory of an old Member who sadly passed away, we're not quite dead yet.

To clarify:

I have no doubt that 3-rail will survive for the foreseeable future. That was not my lament.

My lament is for what may be lack of newly tooled content (in this case from MTH) in view of those that participate in 3-rail. New product(s) add(s) excitement to the hobby and helps to invigorate the hobby.  That will be lacking, from MTH, anyway.

Keep in mind also that this is not a concern for me (I'm in HO), but my 3-rail friends that are here.

Andre

So thinking about these 4-4-0's got me overly enthusiastic about the out of scale General type locos.   I've had the LCCA Civil War set of locos, and I've ordered the Jupiter and CP119 with LionChief now, and, in a fit of total overkill will probably order the CP119 scale loco and the two CP passenger cars that go with it.

Question for those more knowledgeable.  What freight or passenger cars that have been made over the years would you run with the LCCA Civil War set of the Texas and the General, and with the out of scale Jupiter and CP119?  I know Lionel has made many freight and passenger cars over the last 70 years or so.  They've got a set, still available,  the Five Star General from 2017.  I suppose I could get that for the rolling stock (horse and two passenger cars).  What has MTH or K-Line or 3rd Rail done in the way of toy rolling stock, if anything?

Landsteiner posted:

So thinking about these 4-4-0's got me overly enthusiastic about the out of scale General type locos.   I've had the LCCA Civil War set of locos, and I've ordered the Jupiter and CP119 with LionChief now, and, in a fit of total overkill will probably order the CP119 scale loco and the two CP passenger cars that go with it.

Question for those more knowledgeable.  What freight or passenger cars that have been made over the years would you run with the LCCA Civil War set of the Texas and the General, and with the out of scale Jupiter and CP119?  I know Lionel has made many freight and passenger cars over the last 70 years or so.  They've got a set, still available,  the Five Star General from 2017.  I suppose I could get that for the rolling stock (horse and two passenger cars).  What has MTH or K-Line or 3rd Rail done in the way of toy rolling stock, if anything?

I'm pretty sure (was reviewing the MTH 2019 V2 catalog today when placing a pre-order) MTH has cataloged a set of Overton Passenger cars meant to go with each of their Railking CP119 and Jupiter offerings (there was one each for CP, UP, and also the Long Island Engine they had on the same page).

-Dave

Landsteiner posted:

What has MTH or K-Line or 3rd Rail done in the way of toy rolling stock, if anything?

MTH has done a series of late 1800's freight cars in RailKing over the years, also slightly oversized.

Rusty

Craignor posted:

MTH has actually been making 19th century locos for years, including 4-4-0’s with sound and smoke, yeah:

http://mthtrains.com/20-3595-1

I might be a buyer if they would lose the “wireless tether”

There was a lot of progress in locomotive production during the 19th century, so what you're showing is not the same as what Lionel is producing....  The 4-4-0's you're showing are far larger than the 1860's 4-4-0's that were present at Promontory and about 30 years newer.

Jake,

Thanks. You are correct, I realized that AFTER my post.

Its been a long time since I've posted, but I notice that the posts are still the same. 

Lots of price sensitivity.  Trust me, I understand that well.

Desire for ever more features (which clashes with the preceding).

Constant comparisons of apples and oranges. 

Kudos from enthusiasts of the item, grousing from those who don't really care.

So, let me put in my oar:

The folks complaining about price have no idea of what it costs to build a commercial model.  The amount of capital which is invested for the entire run.  The amount of labor every single extra little detail part adds to price.  The very high costs for painting complex schemes like those required for 19th Century railroading.

I understand.  You have no direct point of comparison.  I do. So let me make a couple of points:

1.  Electronics.  The reason a lot of 0-gauge electronics is so large is because of the power and amperage used.  Sure an HO board is smaller, but then it would blow the very first time your engine derailed.

2.  Sound.  Putting sound in a follow-on car is unavoidable.  Its the speaker, you see.  We in 0-gauge demand large, high-output speakers or else complain the sound is tinny.  If they used a speaker small enough to fit in the engine or tender, you same folks will be loudly complaining about the poor sound quality.  Remember it is the speaker which mostly decides sound quality and size DOES matter here.

3.  Paint.  I'm sorry, but it costs just a few dollars to paint a loco black and add some transfer pinstripes or numbers.  The complexity of paint schemes adds a vast amount of cost to a model.  The most expensive single cost in my models was the paint, it cost hundreds of dollars per unit.  I know they are getting it a lot cheaper, but I still expect is is very expensive.  Way more expensive than black.  So apples and oranges anyone?

4.  Design.  Design costs are rising constantly, the wages of skilled CAD or 3D designers is rising, not falling.  Even in China.  While it is true that the basic design of these locos are probably knock offs of the ones built by Precision Scale back in the '90s, a lot of the design work has to be made from scratch.  I'm sure they are using different elements of running gear and die casting tooling has a high up-front cost which needs to be amortized.  On a limited run model, this amortization is probably quite considerable.

So there are some things to consider in a nutshell.  I applaud Lionel for taking the leap into the past, I was getting sick of seeing new versions of their horrible General model and of course their Lincoln set was another Precision Scale knock off and their Best Friend was based on the 1920s replica and not the real one.  But the Stourbridge Lion was definitely cool.

In fact, if they are interested in some nearly completed CAD and 3D drawings of some great locos, they can contact me.  They're for sale.

Dave

Thanks for the information to all who responded.  Found some MTH W.A.R.R. rolling stock for my Civil War toy locos from LCCA representing the great locomotive chase, and some Lionel W.A.R.R. passenger cars/horse car as part of a 2017 set.  Anyone want the locomotive as I think two 4-4-0s plus the scale CP 4-4-0 is probably quite enough?  Should have remembered the current MTH catalog items, but just ordered a few from Mr. Muffin.  Nice toys .

The sky has been falling on Lionel's demise since I started buying trains in the late 60's and people are still saying it's not long before Lionel becomes a distant memory. Yes it will happen one day but not in the near future. 

As far as 4-4-0's being announced this past week, they seem to be very nice but I just cannot afford to buy them. Buy the oversize ones from Lionel or MTH? Not sure, I have to look at the them in person to see if I would like them. I usually run modern scale diesels and only have one steam engine, a scale camelback. Although I do like 4-4-0's and I would like to add these types to my layout. But would these look ok with my other scale engines or just run them and have fun. 

Dave

david1 posted:

 Although I do like 4-4-0's and I would like to add these types to my layout. But would these look ok with my other scale engines or just run them and have fun. 

Dave

Would they? Yes they would. During the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, the General made a tour of the engine and a passenger car with exhibit dioramas of the Great Locomotive Chase. Just as I was involved in piloting WW2 war planes around the country and landing at airports with modern jets, we were hits at each place as are any steam engines when they are running in a modern world of engines.          So run your 4-4-0  on your modern railroad and they can be on a siding as an exhibit when not running.

fredt posted:

Interesting set.  Does anyone know if the legacy system on these includes the IR sensor? I do not see any indication in the descriptions. It really would be nice to run them on a controlled layout.

Yes all of the engines are equipped with the IR sensor under the tender.

Quick update - as promised in our announcement and earlier posts, we've decided to backdate the Pennsy unit into the late 1880s. This means Russia Iron jacketing on the boiler and stack and just a little more color all around. Still stately, stylish and very Pennsy - but a much vibrant locomotive more in keeping with the others in this series. Here's the new art!

As of today, we've sold through 1/3 of our sets on lionelstore.com with good numbers all around. Thank you to all who have already helped make this project a success.

Thanks Ryan!  That Pennsy looks fantastic...  you just sold me one of them too!

laming posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.

That right there is ominous sounding for my 3-rail friends.

Andre

Maybe that says more about MTH than the overall 3 rail market.

All I know is, this offering is a huge swing and a miss for my taste, but then I was lost at steam.

Pennsy looks awesome Ryan.

I’m curious as to how hard it would be or feasible (yes all be it at the price point you shouldn’t need to) but to install a super chuffer board and or an HO chuff & or an HO smoke unit installed in the unit. Or possibly retrofit an MTH smoke unit that was designed for a 1/48 scale 4-4-0 and make that work....just some options and like I said at the price point Lionel should have already installed this equipment, but I wonder if the above mentioned options would work.

Will the Lionel Store Exclusive set come in a special box, or will it just be the 2 engines and cars in their own boxes like the regular BTO ones?

Does anyone know?

Did some research regarding PRR 573... Found reference to it in "Locomotives of the Pennsylvania Railroad Volume 1, The Early Years, 1848-1874". A side view drawing can be found on page 162 of the paperback edition. It was a class C locomotive, used for fast freight and passenger traffic (the original PRR engine classifications used from 1868 thru 1897, not the revised one that everyone knows about) built in Dec 1872 in Altoona. It was renumbered to the Grand Rapids & Indiana as #56 in 1883.

SandJam posted:

Will the Lionel Store Exclusive set come in a special box, or will it just be the 2 engines and cars in their own boxes like the regular BTO ones?

 

Does anyone know?

Good question!  Lets see if I do this right : @Conrail6358

-Dave

I'll have to watch when I get home on FB as Ryan had said they would talk more about these engines on the Ryan & Dave show today.

Well, I am going to wait for the catalog to come out. I am interested in these, but I have to wait and see what other competition is driving the catalog. If I have some room for these, I will get both Jupiter, 119, and the Pennsylvania offering. Just have to wait and see. I still have to watch the Ryan & Dave show from Friday, things were a little busier this weekend than I thought it would be.

MTHPRRGURU posted:

I’m curious as to how hard it would be or feasible (yes all be it at the price point you shouldn’t need to) but to install a super chuffer board and or an HO chuff & or an HO smoke unit installed in the unit. Or possibly retrofit an MTH smoke unit that was designed for a 1/48 scale 4-4-0 and make that work....just some options and like I said at the price point Lionel should have already installed this equipment, but I wonder if the above mentioned options would work.

I suspect the logic board and motor consume most of the space in the locomotive.  No way of knowing until one is actually available if this stuff would fit.  The MTH HO smoke unit is about 1.3" long.  One issue is finding if the smoke output control from the BEMC board is active, you'll need that to control the smoke unit.  Since this comes with no smoke unit, they may not have enabled those outputs.

Here's the MTH HO smoke unit.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Well, I am going to wait for the catalog to come out. I am interested in these, but I have to wait and see what other competition is driving the catalog. If I have some room for these, I will get both Jupiter, 119, and the Pennsylvania offering. Just have to wait and see. I still have to watch the Ryan & Dave show from Friday, things were a little busier this weekend than I thought it would be.

As far as I know there was NOT a Ryan and Dave show on Friday.

MartyE posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Well, I am going to wait for the catalog to come out. I am interested in these, but I have to wait and see what other competition is driving the catalog. If I have some room for these, I will get both Jupiter, 119, and the Pennsylvania offering. Just have to wait and see. I still have to watch the Ryan & Dave show from Friday, things were a little busier this weekend than I thought it would be.

As far as I know there was NOT a Ryan and Dave show on Friday.

Well that is odd. I wonder what went on then, maybe something came up or someone was sick?

I didn't hesitate except for this one thing which I will post a photo of latter. I got a 119 and the matching passenger cars the day of. My only question is why this popped up (in the photo that will be up soon) and will the boxes be decorated in a different way than normal? Maybe a golden spike? 

Trainmaster04 posted:

I didn't hesitate except for this one thing which I will post a photo of latter. I got a 119 and the matching passenger cars the day of. My only question is why this popped up (in the photo that will be up soon) and will the boxes be decorated in a different way than normal? Maybe a golden spike? 

This is what I woke up to on the 10th. 

And you ordered 5, right?? 😁

No not really. I called Lionel and I had to step the guy through the process of getting to the page and he said that it did not show that. I told him that if that was true they would have hundreds of pre-orders. Over all I was given the send an email with a photo deal and went on with the day. The weird part was it was there one minute, as the photo shows, and when I reloaded the page it went and showed what it looks like today. Ryan, any info on this? 

John Rowlen posted:

Great minds at "WROK".  Never admit you're misssteaks.  $299.00 is still too much for me.  Will they have parts?  The correct parts?  Long live the Mogul.

LOL!!!!

Gee, as long as they ran I wouldn't care much what else they did or parts they stocked. Just order extra sets as noted.  But I don't see these features making it worth the real price if five per order were included.

(Like a Ferrari, still cool, but decadent)