Lionel's Cabbage Patch crisis and some advice from a 36 year sales and business development man...

@Crazy J RR posted:

The Legacy decision...

Fellas, take a look at what is going on. (see photo).  I would suggest an emergency sales meeting to discuss how you NEVER, EVER scare off the customers from a brand that has American Icon status.  I have teetered for years on the decision to go O scale 2 rail because of the broader electronics platform.  This may be the deciding factor.  People make fun of the Cabbage Patch craze.  When reviewing bad business decisions, New Coke tops the list.

Meeting room.  NOW!

The above is not an actual sale.  Look at the bid history.  Only two bidders were really involved.

If you're citing Cabbage Patch Kids then you should, of course, realize that this is an outlier, and is trying to incite panic when it's not called for.  We've seen several schills over the last two years.

Just before Christmas last year it was a scale Polar Express Berkshire for $12,299.00 (12/2/2020).

This is clearly another.

Mike

You lost me at the thread title.

I think he's implying that Lionel is somehow involved with the sale of this item or that they can control what someone wants to try to resell it for.

That said, people who do this are slimeballs.

Actually, this was predicted (not to this level of insanity) by a member of a knowledgeable group several days ago right after the latest Lionel announcement.  If it's the only incident then, OK... moronic.  There are two others right now that are ONLY $600 or so (???)...  But I certainly  would not ignore it.  This reaction could be more telling then a facebook post which costs nothing (and therefor has no value).  And, I am suggesting nothing here other than Lionel re-examine the decision.  Is this reaction real, or kindergarten panic? 

Mallard: I am not implying Lionel is involved with that specific sale... Now if Mr. Kughn was still around... well, let's not go there.

I hate when the drama llamas come to town to graze.

Somebody please let me know precisely when the sky's going to fall.  The suspense is killing me.  Yawn.  I'm going to take a little nap.

Thanks in advance.  I wouldn't want to miss it.

Mike

dumb

The pricing looks like it is in line with most member offerings in a certain club buy/sell publication every other month.

If it's ebay I ignore all completed sales with less than 5 bids.

Just chuckle and carry on.  I don't put much faith in the internet as a news source or marketing barometer.  Similar to the 100+ cable TV, and Utub channels of miracle cures and merchandising.

Putting Nipsey and Sleepy to the side for now...

Individuals price gouging and even this specific Lionel announcement should not be the point here...

The thought of discontinuing any part of an electronics "operating system" that is already weak, doesn't seem to be a sound (pun intended) idea.  When I say weak, I say this in comparison to other train gauges and frankly, other hobbies.  For O gauge, the basics are there, they are in place, and for the most part, (after years of trial an error and dollars spent by your customers to make the adjustments needed), it works.    Hopefully there is a better plan coming.  Other gauges have certainly shown that there are working options for electronics that are very robust.  But, with a readily available list of poor decisions to choose from (O gauge Industry wide and not just electronics), you can't help but have empathy for a customer base that questions when some of the "basics" start to go "obsolete".

It's one thing to say that a company is not going to offer a specific version, color scheme or road name in a model.  There will be some people that are disappointed for sure.  But, lets say for example, someone at Dell starts messing with the "basics".  Someone says, "hey, the letter "Q" is hardly ever used.  Let's obsolete it.  We could reduce are letter inventory and manufacturing costs.  After all, how much could "Q" possibly effect our customers quality...  ooopppss... kwality experience?"  I saw it many times over 36 years in business, by many companies.   And I have seen it too many times in my 50 years in this hobby.   Companies MUST focus on that bottom line.  That's a fact!  But, too often, that focus develops from short term fixes (and bonus goals) rather than long term plans.   And those decisions can quickly... sorry... kwickly affect the end customer.  The even bigger concern for me is that one of these "miss steps" could be devastating for the O gauge hobby.  Microsoft and Coke have the bulk to stumble and recover from Windows Vista and New Coke.  Lionel and the gang may not have that kind of stamina.  Think of those eBay prices then! (LOL)

I only hope the plan moving forward is sound and transitory.  I for one will not scrap my current electronics system and buy again to start over.  If I must, 2 rail is an option or maybe...   I have a T-shirt that I often wear to train shows.  It reads:  "reset 18, reset 18, reset18... get Williams out and run trains!"

I'm lost. Are you saying Lionel is destroying it's brand by discontinuing the CAB2 remote?

Is DCC that much more feature packed than Legacy? I only ever see videos of DCC running trains and it doesn't seem to do much. It must be special given its longevity but I'm just genuinely asking.

@BillYo414 posted:

I'm lost. Are you saying Lionel is destroying it's brand by discontinuing the CAB2 remote?

Is DCC that much more feature packed than Legacy? I only ever see videos of DCC running trains and it doesn't seem to do much. It must be special given its longevity but I'm just genuinely asking.

From what I've seen on friends HO layouts DCC decoders allow them some amazing sound choices. Take for example the Lionel PRR J with the incorrect whistle, no way to correct it. They all admit they don't need 5 or 6, maybe 3 at the most including the correct one.

They also have the capability to speed match with other brands of locomotives. Plus they show up at a friends house who uses a different brand control unit and can still run their trains.

I knew the sounds could be changed @BobbyD I just dont usually hear different sound in the videos I've seen. I'm jealous of that speed matching though. That's convenient.

I hit send to quick...

There are good things too...

Lionel's decision to continue to support ERR!!!

That move successfully finished MTH in my basement.  I regularly upgrade older Williams and 3rd rail brass and give MTH "proto-echtomys" .  This allowed me options that MTH refused by not offering any parts.  This effectively gave Lionel all of my business as now not only do I convert to Lionel, I only look for new Lionel engines. 

BILL... I'm not really focusing on the specifics of the announcement here.   Just the trend and how I hope the path leads to better things.  TRANSITORY is a requirement for me though.  The word obsolete is scary.  Maybe a more defined announcement and explanation is needed.  Laying out of the overall plan.  And maybe that's out there and I just missed it.  Frankly, I see lots of confusion and a detailed OGR article covering the history (with dates) and future plans would help Lionel customers and be a winner for OGR? 

Now... to me... and this is just to me Bill... I have friends in O scale 2 rail and HO.  Their ability to buy any company's equipment and have a drop in option that is pretty standard is where the advantage is. 

Analogies to HO and other scales aren't all that informative. There have always been many providers of HO locomotives (same for N).  In O gauge, there have never been more than two major players at any time.  K-Line, Weaver, 3rd Rail all signed up to use Lionel's command system because there was no other option.  MTH chose to develop their own system.  Now there is one major player left and they have decided to stop making the cab 2/command base combination, presumably for multiple reasons.  One reason is because any device of this sort is subject to obsolescence. Try running current software using MacOS9 or Windows XP on a 2002 machine.  Another is the costs of modification to use currently available components, which the main reason Lionel has offered. 

When TMCC was introduced in the mid-1990s, conventional operators and long-time Lionel collectors were unhappy in many instances. Change is unpleasant.  Mike Wolf (you remember him?) said there was no need for command control, and then changed his mind.  People still complain that you cannot get a manual transmission on almost any automobile made today.  So it goes, to quote Kurt Vonnegut.

I mean CAB3 just consolidates all the remote stuff Lionel has ever made. The CAB1L is supposed to live on.

ERR is basically drop in. It's a matter of your skill to do the dropping but there is basically always a way to do it.

I think the interoperability in 2rail O/HO is nice. I guess I just never had/hear about trouble running anything from the four 3rail O scale manufacturers (Atlas, Sunset, Lionel, and MTH) so it never crossed my mind.

I'm still a little lost but I think I'm overreacting because I'm sick of the sky-is-falling talk on the news, in general conversation, and now here. I'm not one for getting stressed out or being serious when I criticize peoples opinions but I'm about at the end of my patience with this New World Attitude.

Lionel has nothing to do with this. This is sale between two private parties. Lionel is not involved. Lionel is increasing capabilities with the Base-3, not decreasing capabilities. Lionel still offers a CAB-1L remote. Things are looking good right now in three rail O gauge. End of story

@BobbyD posted:

From what I've seen on friends HO layouts DCC decoders allow them some amazing sound choices. Take for example the Lionel PRR J with the incorrect whistle, no way to correct it. They all admit they don't need 5 or 6, maybe 3 at the most including the correct one.

They also have the capability to speed match with other brands of locomotives. Plus they show up at a friends house who uses a different brand control unit and can still run their trains.

I would simply say that DCC offers different choices than Legacy rather than more or less.  DCC allows for more assignments by the user to do things like control ditch lights, strobes, turning on or off the cab lights or class lights while running, and the there are now more and better sounds available than anything in 3 rail.  I think the universal aspect of the open architecture of DCC encourages innovation rather than forcing someone into a brand.

At the same time, it does require more knowledge by the end user as you must program the values if you want something above and beyond what comes out of the box.  Also, not all DCC decoders are created equal so more research is required to determine what decoder has the features you want.

As to the OP, I have never subscribed to the sky is falling attitude. This has always been a changing and evolving hobby with more options now than ever in the past.  Think how lucky we are to have a such broad history of trains new and second hand to select from with the features or details that interest us. 

The so-called New Coke fiasco has now been mentioned twice. 

I think that analogy fails.

@GG1 4877 posted:

  I think the universal aspect of the open architecture of DCC encourages innovation rather than forcing someone into a brand.

I'm absolutely interested in hi-jacking this thread to talk about this. Creality makes budget 3D printers. They got popular due to low cost but then they decided to go open source and they ROCKETED in popularity. Everyone wants one because there is so much development and support. I took a $500 printer and made it print like a $1000 printer via upgrades.

I have thought Lionel should go open source since I got back into the hobby and saw how different things were since I got out around 2000 or so.