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Hi All! I'm finally joining the forum and felt it would be appropriate to share a few photos of the new 65' Mill Gondola that we've cataloged in the 2017 C1 Signature catalog.

As Ryan stated in another post, the car is based on the Greenbrier design. The cars are often listed as either 65 or 66 feet long depending on who is holding the tape measure and what point on the body they are referencing. We're offering 6 different road names with 3 different road numbers per road name.

The trucks are our new scale trucks that are made alongside the new LionScale trucks. The coupler can be easily removed, and the gondola body is scale coupler ready. These new trucks are also meant for the new 2-rail conversion kits for the 2-rail guys.

The tooling is currently being made and as soon as samples come in, we'll make sure to get pictures up to show everyone. We're aiming to have samples to show at the Spring York as well.

I look forward to being part of discussions here. Don't hesitate to ask questions!

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Last edited by Dave Olson
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Good example of the same class gondola built by a different car builder note some variations 18 ribs instead of 17 and a straight line bottom edge with lip for ribs obviously Lionel could have chosen this builder [Trinity] version over the Gunderson version both are current, the Trinitys and NSC cars are common to the TTX fleet.

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Last edited by hibar
falconservice posted:

These gondolas are the Freight Car America design. Which is similar to the style of gondolas from Trinity and earlier, shorter Thrall Car and Evans Products  gondolas. This is the type of gondola that is not available widely in O scale.

GNTX 290046 Little Rock_AR_Robin Thomas_2016-02-03_87994GNTX 290152 Little Rock_AR_Robin Thomas_2016-01-17_87804

I have been making these for 3 years , there are 2 type logos the most modern and the large yellow , which I produce and I am fixing to use on 2 gons I am building , the newer type and the large yellow .I also make  CSX highside 52 ft gons for scrap service , as well as a NS version and DJ JOSEPH type. I see them all the time here , I make all my own decals  , USSTEEL (metal) pipe loads and wood cribbing,real metal banding, real metal scrap loads ,metal tie down chains and winches  . I also have full underbody detail with brake rods running all the way to the trucks. Inside length on the TTX gons is 66ft 3764 cu ft 16.5 inches in O scale . A friendly recently called them ,"Bernie's better than brass" , because mine come painted, weathered , loaded and ready to run . With companies like Archers transfers , Wiseman model services ,I make masters of any car out there today , however I do not show them here .I have many modern freight cars you see HO . The best part  is MADE IN THE USA by an American .

.IMG_5069[1]IMG_5072[1]IMG_5076[1]IMG_5077[1]IMG_5081[1] TTX

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Last edited by Scratchbuilder1-48
mjrodg3n88 posted:

Dave Olson,

Question, what modeling software are you using?? 

Thanks

Hi Mike!

I use SolidWorks at Lionel. I've used CATIA and Pro-Engineer before, but SolidWorks is great for all the various kinds of projects we do. It also works well with the CNC mill we have in our prototyping shop.

BTW, SCRATCHBUILDER, your models look fantastic! Very envious of your modelling talents.

Thanks all,

Dave

Last edited by Dave Olson

The NS Norfolk Southern mill gondola numbers came from a series built by Ortner for the Norfolk & Western. The Ortner 65' gondolas are similar to the Trinity and Thrall Car designs. Since they are nearing 50 years old, it might be possible that NS will retire and scrap them. Take photos of all the NS gondolas while they are around in the next few years.

Andrew

@Dave Olsen I have a question about those trucks on these gondolas (and possibly the Lion Scale Modern Box Car too). Is the whole truck able to come off and a different set of Lionel trucks able replace it?

I'm not a fan of the thumb tact uncoupling tab and I want to use those trucks from Lionel's scale rolling stock where the uncoupling mechanism is between the axels of the truck.

I might do 3 rail scale later and do kadee couplers, but I want the flexibility to move back later without doing damage prior.

Insight on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

elementdude195 posted:

@Dave Olsen I have a question about those trucks on these gondolas (and possibly the Lion Scale Modern Box Car too). Is the whole truck able to come off and a different set of Lionel trucks able replace it?

I'm not a fan of the thumb tact uncoupling tab and I want to use those trucks from Lionel's scale rolling stock where the uncoupling mechanism is between the axels of the truck.

I might do 3 rail scale later and do kadee couplers, but I want the flexibility to move back later without doing damage prior.

Insight on this will be appreciated.

Thanks

Since Lionel now installs it on their scale 86' boxcars, scale 89' auto racks, and their top of the line 21" passenger cars your gondolas will look out of place 

Does anyone know if the cabooses will go back to this style truck also?

elementdude195 posted:

@Dave Olsen I have a question about those trucks on these gondolas (and possibly the Lion Scale Modern Box Car too). Is the whole truck able to come off and a different set of Lionel trucks able replace it?

 

The new trucks have been designed to be a direct replacement. No changes to the car frames have been made. So the existing scale trucks will fit.

Same goes for the LionScale cars. The trucks were designed as a direct replacement.

Dave Olson posted:
elementdude195 posted:

@Dave Olsen I have a question about those trucks on these gondolas (and possibly the Lion Scale Modern Box Car too). Is the whole truck able to come off and a different set of Lionel trucks able replace it?

 

The new trucks have been designed to be a direct replacement. No changes to the car frames have been made. So the existing scale trucks will fit.

Same goes for the LionScale cars. The trucks were designed as a direct replacement.

Appreciate the answer. I wll try them out and see how it plays out when I get them.

 

By any chance anyone know the part number for those trucks? I'm having difficulties on the website with all type of keywords and item numbers from catalogs to try pull up those trucks that will fit on these gondolas.

rdunniii posted:

Recent Lionel catalogs have the information on the 50 and 70 Ton conversion kits.

I was not looking for 2 rail trucks nor conversion kits. I was looking for 3 rail trucks with uncoupling mechanism between the axels.

I did see some others on the last few pages of the catalog(never turned the page that far before) but I wanted to compare them to the ones on the service part list of scale rolling stock to make sure it's the same thing I'm looking for before I pickup a box of trucks.

Look what came in today!  Here are just a couple of quick teasers of the first tooling samples from the gons. We will have these samples on display at York in a few weeks. While Dave and I have already found a few things that will be changed in the final production, we are both very happy with the way things look at this stage. Currently, these cars are on the factory schedule for June and should be arriving at dealers in mid August if things continue to look good.66 gon tooling sample66gon tooling sample detail

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john f penca jr posted:

Scratchbuilder...first wow nice work ! secondly the power plant in your photo background is the Muny Power plant in Cleveland Ohio which over the last couple months has been torn down. Where o where did that backdrop come from ! conrail john

John the old Muny plant in Cleveland did not come down It was the old Cleveland Electric Illuminating Co.E.72nd plant that came down.Nick

Last edited by rockstars1989
Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

I have been making these for 3 years , there are 2 type logos the most modern and the large yellow , which I produce and I am fixing to use on 2 gons I am building , the newer type and the large yellow .I also make  CSX highside 52 ft gons for scrap service , as well as a NS version and DJ JOSEPH type. I see them all the time here , I make all my own decals  , USSTEEL (metal) pipe loads and wood cribbing,real metal banding, real metal scrap loads ,metal tie down chains and winches  . I also have full underbody detail with brake rods running all the way to the trucks. Inside length on the TTX gons is 66ft 3764 cu ft 16.5 inches in O scale . A friendly recently called them ,"Bernie's better than brass" , because mine come painted, weathered , loaded and ready to run . With companies like Archers transfers , Wiseman model services ,I make masters of any car out there today , however I do not show them here .I have many modern freight cars you see HO . The best part  is MADE IN THE USA by an American .

.IMG_5069[1]IMG_5072[1]IMG_5076[1]IMG_5077[1]IMG_5081[1] TTX

Bernie,

Are you totally getting out of model trains and scratchbuilding altogether?   If not,  is there any chance of you building/decaling a couple of pipe loads as in these photos to fit an MTH Premier McKeesport Connecting RR gondola?   Or at least  print me a sheet of the USS United States Steel decals as on the pipes.

Thanks,

Nick 

hibar posted:

Just checked Ro site does not show any in stock, also lists new catalog gons for reservation same price either way. If I am not mistaken when originally posted they mentioned quantities of 1K each? What am I missing?

Are we talking about the same products here.  I did a search for "65 mill" in the website search bar, and 18 Lionel O-Gauge 65' mill gondolas showed in the search results.  Here's one example...

Screen shot 2017-09-03 at 8.45.24 PM

Is this what you're looking for?

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  • Lionel UP 65-foot mill gondola

Lionel 65' Mill Gondolas  arrived this week
Three models per road name
17" in length / O-36 Curves
Extras still at Lionel - Please order Now!

BNSF

CNW

CSX

Norfolk Southern

Southern Pacific

Union Pacific

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Having perused at length the various picture archive sites before ordering one it seems that only two liveries are genuine, the remainder appear fantasy or in Atlas speak 'alternative history' liveries. IMO disappointing for a first run, my preference  would have been correct liveries for the first run including leasing liveries before embarking on non existent prototypes. I realise I am in a minority unfortunately. I ordered the CSX variant.  Probably my last US prototype purchase in RTR. 

I believe the NS cars are accurate also, the latest Lionel catalog lists another run of these cars in new paint schemes at least one or 2 may be correct have not had a chance to check yet, looking forward to your pics and evaluation of these cars from a 2 rail point of view please show ends and underbody. I have not seen the car yet so I am holding off buying recent Lionels have had  very bland underbody detail [ I realize this is not a big issue to most buyers ] still we are talking 80.00 a car list. just saying

 

Just a few points to bring up, Lionel used the Greenbriar  66' modern gondola as their prototype, it is a 17 rib side with a drop profile between the trucks obviously there are a limited number of RRs that bought from this mfg vs other mfgs of similar 66' gons [the CNW has 19 ribs] the vol 2 catalog shows the BNSF in black as the only accurate paint scheme for this car, the first run of BNSF red is a straight bottom edge gon as are all the other 2nd run cars. just saying !

Last edited by hibar

Hibar,

Thanks for the clarification. Now that I think about the discussions I read on these forums, since Lionel announced these new models, I remember the disagreement between hobbyists was not just about the paint scheme but if the railroads had a Greenbrier gondola in the paint scheme as depicted, in the catalogs. Trinity Industries & National Steel Car also make mill gondolas that look identical at first glance, but have minor differences, the longer one stares at them. I knew the CSX version was correct as Greenbrier has the (CS)XT version, number (49)1600, on their webpage for this gondola & Ryan (from Lionel) had also confirmed that these models would be based on the Greenbrier design.

So, here are some photos of my CSX version. The pipe-like details on the underside are cast as ribs, not as separately applied pipes, but they are not in view, unless one turns the car over. I also like that the “BUILT BY LIONEL” markings are getting smaller compared to their scale cars from earlier this decade.

I intend to convert these to 2-rail eventually. I haven’t decided if I am going to use the Lionel 2-rail conversion kits or Atlas-O trucks, at this time. But does anyone know if the 2-rail conversion kits that Lionel announced, are available now?

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

IMG_0033IMG_0035IMG_0043IMG_0046IMG_0047IMG_0048IMG_0049IMG_0050

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The underside is not that bad looking, if you can get the newer Atlas 100T RB trucks with the thinner side frames that would be the way to go. I do not believe Lionel has made their conversion kit available yet, with cut levers, air hoses and KDs the car should dress up well. I see these cars frequently on the CSX river line in N Jersey.

Thanks for the pictures Naveen, although I ordered a CSX one it is being delivered to my friend in IL, shipping and duty makes transatlantic purchases here a non starter and I will not actually get the car till the next March Meet. I will be replacing brake cylinders etc on mine when I get it along with the trucks. Not a bad car for the price, mine was ordered from Charles Ro. Only the UP and CSX seem to be prototypical, I could not find a matching numbers series on the prototype picture sites, I accept that  this is not a guarantee of fidelity though. I you want to model 2r f/s modern US then unfortunately one has to compromise as the majority of offerings are directed at the 3rail toy train market. 

hibar posted:

The underside is not that bad looking, if you can get the newer Atlas 100T RB trucks with the thinner side frames that would be the way to go. I do not believe Lionel has made their conversion kit available yet, with cut levers, air hoses and KDs the car should dress up well. I see these cars frequently on the CSX river line in N Jersey.

Hibar,

Stopped by P&D Hobby this afternoon. They had the Lionel 2-rail conversion kits in stock but they only had it for the 50-ton scale trucks & 70-ton scale trucks. As the prototype Greenbrier cars, that these new gondolas are modeled after, is rated for a Gross Rail Load of 286,000 lbs., is there a Lionel kit for the 100-ton trucks to be released or already available? It is my opinion that the 70-ton scale conversion kits, are wrong for this modern gondola.

Anyway, I took the easy way & just bought the newer 100-ton Atlas-O 2-rail tucks & Kadee 740 couplers at P&D & converted the cars to 2-rail. Even though I used the shortest 2-56 screw I had that was just 3/8” long, the screw broke through the floor of the car, even though I didn’t use a drill to deepen the hole. The floor must be rather thin in this area.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

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Last edited by naveenrajan
Engineer-Joe posted:

Does Lionel make a 100 ton conversion? I only remember reading about the 70 ton kits for the modern trucks and 50 ton for the other type.

L84463 - 2 RAIL CONVERSION KIT 70 TON LIONSCALE TRUCKS (2)

I'm thinking it wouldn't matter? just probably 33" wheels?

 

Joe,

Thanks for the clarification on the Lionel conversion kits.

I was surprised how simple the conversion was, with the Atlas-O trucks as they were a direct replacement for the Lionel trucks & I used the screws that came with the Atlas-O truck to attach the trucks to the car.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

Engineer-Joe posted:

Does Lionel make a 100 ton conversion? I only remember reading about the 70 ton kits for the modern trucks and 50 ton for the other type.

L84463 - 2 RAIL CONVERSION KIT 70 TON LIONSCALE TRUCKS (2)

I'm thinking it wouldn't matter? just probably 33" wheels?

 

The three primary differences would be wheel size, wheelbase, and spring number and placement.  36" vs. 33" wheels, 70" vs. 68" wheelbase, 9 spring positions per side (3 x 3 grid) vs. 7 (2/3/2) or 9 (3 x 3).  So depending on how the 70 truck is executed with respect to the springs, the difference could be significant.  The wheelbase and wheel diameter would likely be the type of thing that would need to be seen next to a proper size truck to discern the difference.  So it probably largely depends on individual modeler attitude.

Last edited by big train
base11 posted:
HMS2035 posted:

Sorry, that button coupler kills it for me.

Hal

Me too.  The new button coupler is a NO GO for me also.

I hear you on that one. It's was told that it's the same couplers as the Lion Scale Modern Boxcars.

I was told by Dave O. a few pages back that those couplers can be changed out with the scale ones with the hidden uncoupling plate. Just need to know what the part # is to buy and replace.

I had to use Micro-Mark Kadee spacers to lower the couplers on these cars that I had converted to 2-rail as the couplers seemed a bit higher, when tested with the Kadee Height Gauge. I speculate that Lionel designed this model to be converted with their own 70-ton wheelset / kit, as the 33” wheels would have lowered the car sufficiently to not need a single 0.025” thick spacer that I had to use with my Atlas-O 100-ton trucks.

Also, using the spacer, also reduces the length of the screws (securing the Kadee coupler-box to the body of the car) that intrudes into the floor of the car but doesn’t completely prevent it. The screws that were shipped loose, with these cars, were slightly longer than 3/8” & that wouldn’t have solved this issue either.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

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naveenrajan posted:

I had to use Micro-Mark Kadee spacers to lower the couplers on these cars that I had converted to 2-rail as the couplers seemed a bit higher, when tested with the Kadee Height Gauge.

Also, using the spacer, also reduces the length of the screws (securing the Kadee coupler-box to the body of the car) that intrudes into the floor of the car but doesn’t completely prevent it. The screws that were shipped loose, with these cars, were slightly longer than 3/8” & that wouldn’t have solved this issue either.

Naveen, I've run into the "finding-the-right screw-length issue" several times in the past when working with Kadee coupler boxes and shims.

In cases where the screw is just slightly too long (and the next shorter-length screw is too short!), I've added a tiny washer (or two) under the screw head--between it and the coupler box.  

This serves to shorten the screw just enough to prevent it from protruding through the floor...or end platform on cabooses and engines.

I purchase the tiny washers from Micro Fasteners and keep a supply of various sizes (i.e. 2-56, 4-40, etc.) on hand at all times.

Last edited by CNJ #1601

   Just looking I know rhe position of that coupler tack would cause issues on some grade's transitions.

 On shorteng small machine screws: take a close look a some common plier type wire strippers. On many, you'll see threaded holes. These are for cutting screws to length and work surprisingly well. Often better than the wire sripper portion.

  I usually trim them two threads long and file or grind the cut's pinch on the tip properly, especially on fine threads, but not always. The cuts just vary a lot in how much the pinch changes the tips threads.  The screw's go into the threaded half of the pliers first. These threads keep the screws threads straight.Backing the screw out after the cut also ensures they are ok too. But the lead thread is often jagged and needs filing to start well.

It simplifies supplies too. When I buy hadware under 1/4" dia. I just buy one big box of the long ones for each number & thread, most in pan head, and some common V head sizes,, then clip and trim them as needed. If you search a bit, you can find metric pairss A sloppier cut is still possible in an oversized hole but likely needing fileing/grinding to get it to start into nut threads again.

The Lionel car is based on the Greenbriar Ind 66' mill gondola as built for CSX, the 66' designation is based on the interior length in 1/4 " that should be 16 1/2". The O gauge MFGs today pick a single prototype to build there models on and in most if not all cases they have a very limited number of paint schemes that are accurate for that prototype as a result a number of other paint schemes have to be offered to make the model a viable seller. In HOs much larger market we see a big growth in highly accurate prototype specific models. Today there are a small number of RR car MFGs who build these very cars all with their own engineering dept styles even Greenbriar  may make a noticeable design change in later builds.

Since the new mill gondola is 65' or 66' long then the 1968 scheme for the ILLINOIS CENTRAL's IC 97350-97499 65' gondolas built by Bethlehem Steel can be applied to these O scale models. If you can find builder's photos from 1968, then you can reproduce accurate graphics. 

ic97978seaic097935gea

ic97055ae

 

The CN/IC is still using these gondolas. Many have been repainted in the CN/IC scheme in Illinois. 

Andrew

 

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Last edited by falconservice

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