Some good, some bad, enjoy.
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Gary, Thank you for making this video and sharing your cars. John
Good review Gary. With the couplers mounted solidly to the trucks, how do you think these cars would be when coupled together on smaller radius curves - O-54 and O-36?
MELGAR
Time for Kadee couplers.
Nice thorough demonstration Gary.
Same issues with the newer steelsided reefer trucks.
At least the paint colors aren't horrid like they are on the reefers.
Imo. Too much time is being spent on Lion chief whizz bang # whatever and not enough is spend on quality mechanical components.
It's a good thing there's loads of the well made older rolling stock on ebay, for a fraction of the price of new.
What a shame, and you patiently waited 4 +years for delivery.
Looks like alot of effort to get that roof off. Built in magnets for the roof would have been nice.
I ordered one of the METCA special runs, PRR, now I am regretting it. I wonder if its a option to use old milk car trucks on the new cars...
Nice review Gary. Thorough and complete. I would not apologize to Lionel for the couplers though. They need to get that right in the future. Unfortunately I imagine even if a change is made now it will take time to work through the system.
Let's pull a positive out of this review and push Lionel to go back to the same truck design before the thumb tacks came back. IMO those, which are on the old cars, had one of the most robust coupler made.
@MartyE posted:Let's pull a positive out of this review and push Lionel to go back to the same truck design before the thumb tacks came back. IMO those, which are on the old cars, had one of the most robust coupler made.
No one will ever know but , I wonder if there was some sort of issue with the tooling of Lionels industry leading trucks and couplers.
Or was this a cost cutting measure.
Do these "new" trucks and couplers resemble something that could have been aquired from another manufacturer like Weaver etc?
I have no regrets purchasing these cars, details and graphics are spot on. Kadees are not that much of a jump for me but with that said for those who don't convert will be disappointed in their operation. That was on 0-72 curves. Can't say what the tighter curves will look like.
They literally reinvented the wheel... TO WHAT PURPOSE?!? Lionel should ship original trucks to all purchasers.
Jon 
I’m by no means an engineer. In the video where the trucks derail on an 072 curve. These are not your standard freight car trucks. The wheelbase between the axles is quite a bit longer. Passenger car like. Most passenger cars seem to have either a coupler that pivots on the truck or body mounted couplers so the truck is free to navigate the curve.
These cars could stand some weight. At least bring them up to the heft of an Atlas with a die cast chassis.
Someone with a 3D printer or good at designing such as Mario. Could probably come up with a replacement for the Lionel coupler shank that you could mount a Kadee to. For those not wanting to body mount them. I switched to them years ago and haven’t looked back. But I realize they are not for everyone and for what your paying. They should run fine out of the box.
I recently purchased 2 older issue Milk Cars pretty cheap. No boxes. The sole purpose was just for the trucks for a couple projects. The price on the secondary market will probably bump up for those looking to upgrade to something built in the early 2000’s.
@KOOLjock1 posted:They literally reinvented the wheel... TO WHAT PURPOSE?!? Lionel should ship original trucks to all purchasers.
Jon
I agree 100%. Lionel had one of the best truck setups about 7 years back the was hard to beat. I still can't figure out for the life of me why they changed it. I think if it was cost, most of us would have rather had an increase at least for the scale size cars.
I had no problem navigating O-36, even an O-36 S turn. I don't have two milk cars to couple together though which may be a problem. The couplers on mine perform smoothly so it must be a tolerance/QC issue in the review above. The roof is only difficult to remove the first time. Thought I would add some additional feedback as my experience has been different.
Thanks Gary. Not at all surprising. For us, no Lionel BTO and only buying after reviews say things are good. No “Must haves” any more.
Thanks for the review Gary. My NYC car has most of the wonderful features previously mentioned, couplers don't work, etc. In addition, one door will not close all the way and a few of the hinges were either not completely painted, or have some overspray on them. In addition, one of the grab irons is not pushed into the body, but glued in place. I'm not going to send it back to Charles Ro, I may fix the issues, or, simply leave it as a reminder of why I stopped preordering anything from Lionel! I only bought the NYC car to complete my set I already have. I have at least 10 - 15 more that I've purchased on here, eBay and at shows. I'm sure most here know that the prices of the older cars are well below the new MSRP, like 1/3! I'll wait for one to pop up and grab the trucks off it and turn the body into some sort of MOW shed! I'm with the previous poster as I am now in "wait and see" mode!
After all that waiting... 
I noticed the Cloverland Dairy car (2026760) graphics read "NEW ORLEANS, L.A." I have not previously seen Louisiana abbreviated like Los Angeles. If you look at a similar HO model, the L's have a a bit of a flourish but they do not have a period between the L and the A.
Wow, disappointing on the couplers. I know from some of the cars I've bought over the years that they are not all created equal, but I've never had issue with any auto-derailing themselves. I know one of the cars(older from 90's) seem to sit slightly lower for the couplers itself. If the track was inclining or declining, this car would have issue.
For these cars not to have a swivel coupler like the old is a step into the mud. I guess they wanted to save money from what they lost for all this time, but that's not the way to do it. Guessing we're going to see more stories about bad derailments coming. ☹️
Thanks for the review Gary. Great job!
I just received my 2 cars from Metca and have yet to try them. I have a pile of the older Lionel milk cars and I think they are great!
The non-articulating coupler is a going to be a problem.
On another note, I know it is a cool feature, but I don't see a need for the interior tanks. They are details that will for the most part, never be seen. I'd much rather have the graphics on the trucks and properly working trucks.
PGentieu, My Rutland hoppers have a Built date of 1945 rather than 1915. At least the black looks right.
In the mid 2000’s Atlas was cranking out a variety of rolling stock in numerous road names. Lionel and MTH got into the scale end and competition was good. Quality mattered. Now with Atlas slow in bringing out new product and MTH and Weaver no more. I’m afraid along with high prices this is what we are in for. I’m glad for what I bought years ago and am pretty much set as far as rolling stock.
Nice job on the video, especially coordinating your talking points with your son's videography. Was easy to follow and well done.
@RickO posted:Same issues with the newer steelsided reefer trucks.
At least the paint colors aren't horrid like they are on the reefers.
The 2020 vision reefers?
Thanks everyone, I try. I'm not always the most articulate speaker. I enjoy doing it. More videos to come.
Gary:
Excellent review of the new vs. older reefers. The Videography was excellent, too!
It appeared to me when you compared the newer reefers with the 2000 reefers that the 2000 reefer had the good old fast angle wheels, and the new release had flatter, post-war type, wheels. Did you notice any difference in the wheels?
John
@John Knapp posted:Gary:
Excellent review of the new vs. older reefers. The Videography was excellent, too!
It appeared to me when you compared the newer reefers with the 2000 reefers that the 2000 reefer had the good old fast angle wheels, and the new release had flatter, post-war type, wheels. Did you notice any difference in the wheels?
John
No but I will check into it.
Gary, don't be hard on yourself for speaking out. Regardless of how you speak, fast, slow, runs, drips, or errors, the main take away is what you showed us. You took the time to illustrate all the issues or pluses you saw, and that's what's important. The derailing bit may have taken a few tries to get it to happen, but it was vital you showed us. It just goes to show that is a huge problem that may have gone overlooked if you didn't point it out. I guess that all these new cars won't work well on anything smaller than O72 as the chance of increased derailment unless changing out trucks and such occur.
Thanks for the review - I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. It's a shame and I have been eyeing anywhere between 4-8 of these based on what I know of the previous versions. Now I will maybe only get 1-2 and just plan to retrofit the old trucks from a donor car or from Lionel, or worse, skip buying them altogether. I really don't feel like I can trust anything Lionel puts out right now, especially without a review or two first. I may revisit some of their products from the past if I need anything else.
Gary Really Nice video. Hats off to your son on the camera work. Excellent! Thank you for taking the time to explain everything.
@KOOLjock1 posted:They literally reinvented the wheel... TO WHAT PURPOSE?!? Lionel should ship original trucks to all purchasers.
Jon
New factory, new engineering, old problems come back. Remember the first run of Lionel 2-8-0 locos with Vanderbilt tenders from 20 years ago? It's like they never made a train before.
That's the problem when there are not design engineers dedicated to the product. Everything is built as a brand new one off, rather than the continuation of a long term tradition.
Gary,
For my money, your video and review of these cars was excellent, very informative, and there is no justification for criticism. You told me a lot about these cars that I would not have known until buying one myself. Very interesting and I enjoyed it.
MELGAR
I put a little graphite down in the coupler and along where the spring sits and they seem to close better after working it in. I only ordered the one, but it will be interesting to see what the minimum curve is with two coupled together. Anyone have the ability to try this? It went into and out of an 036 siding I have but the car it was coupled to has an articulated arm. I can try a different fixed arm car later but I’m thinking it will not like it.
@MartyE posted:I agree 100%. Lionel had one of the best truck setups about 7 years back the was hard to beat. I still can't figure out for the life of me why they changed it. I think if it was cost, most of us would have rather had an increase at least for the scale size cars.
Well said. A number of us have been lobbying for the last few years for Lionel to return to its original die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs. While they recently caved in on the hidden uncoupling tabs, the trucks and couplers are still inferior.
I was planning on buying a few of these new milk cars. Based upon Gary's article, there is no way I will now do so.
Pat
@RickO posted:Nice thorough demonstration Gary.
Same issues with the newer steelsided reefer trucks.
At least the paint colors aren't horrid like they are on the reefers.
Imo. Too much time is being spent on Lion chief whizz bang # whatever and not enough is spend on quality mechanical components.
It's a good thing there's loads of the well made older rolling stock on ebay, for a fraction of the price of new.
What a shame, and you patiently waited 4 +years for delivery.
Rick, or others... when did they start using these couplers precisely do you know? I have had the same issues with recent freight cars. Those trucks are terrible. I will stick to older stock, but wondering if you know when that cutoff would be?
Thanks!
Ben
Also... thanks for that great review!
@banelson posted:Rick, or others... when did they start using these couplers precisely do you know? I have had the same issues with recent freight cars. Those trucks are terrible. I will stick to older stock, but wondering if you know when that cutoff would be?
Thanks!
Ben
Also... thanks for that great review!
I think roughly after about 2016 for boxcars ,reefers ,etc. The easiest way to spot the crummy trucks on the newer boxcars and reefers is by the thumbtack uncoupling device which is visible in the illustration as well as the actual product.
As Gary mentioned in his video. The new milk cars were just delivered, and were cataloged starting in 2015. Any milk car cataloged prior to 2015 has the good trucks.
Having said that. Lionel had mentioned they were going to get rid of the thumbtacks. However, after seeing Garys video. I'm skeptical whether we"ll see the older good trucks make a return, or end up with a non articulating coupler and unsprung truck with a so-so hidden uncoupler like those on the milk cars.
@banelson posted:Rick, or others... when did they start using these couplers precisely do you know? I have had the same issues with recent freight cars. Those trucks are terrible. I will stick to older stock, but wondering if you know when that cutoff would be?
Thanks!
Ben
Also... thanks for that great review!
You are good through the 2015 catalogs. Lionel started to change the trucks and couplers in 2016 and then made additional changes to them in 2020. Some of the freight cars from the 2016 Signature Edition, like the PS-4 flatcars with the 40' trailers, still had the old trucks and couplers, but some of the other freight cars did not. The new trucks and couplers were on all of the Lionel freight cars by 2017.
The milk cars cataloged in 2015 are an anomaly, in that they were not actually built in 2015, but were made very recently, using the same tooling as those cataloged in the 2020 Big Book. For all intents and purposes, they should be viewed as though they were listed in the 2020 Big Book.
I recently bought a few of the 50' flatcars with the 20' trailers from the 2020 Big Book. I have not yet put them on the track, and hope that they do not have the same issues as the milk cars, particularly the couplers mounted solidly to the trucks, as they present a high risk of derailments. These are the first Lionel freight cars I have purchased from catalogs after the 2016 Signature Edition.
Pat
Gary, nice review. Too bad what Lionel did with the couplers, not pivoting independent of the truck. I bought a couple of Menards box cars as a test and they're set up the same way, but i didn't expect a lot for a $20 car.
Tony
Great review, Gary. Excellent camera work by your boy, too!
After watching your video, I went back through it looking for some visual evidence. Spotted what I was looking for right at minute mark 4:02.
The new car does not have fast angle wheel sets. The wheels appear to have maybe a slight taper, if at all. And take a look at those couplers! I can see why they don't work worth a hoot - the new profile doesn't match the old one at all! No wonder they don't want to couple together. Maybe the new ones will couple okay to themselves, but that sure doesn't do any good if they won't couple to the age-old standards!
Also, since the knuckle is further away from the truck pivot point than most standard freight trucks, and since they're not articulated, I'm pretty sure that these new trucks will not play nice with the freight trucks on smaller radius curves or ess curves. Derailments will most likely be the norm, and not the exception.
I can usually allow a manufacturer some leeway on new production items and sometimes figure out how the new owner can correct a factory deficiency or two on their own, but these trucks ain't going to cut it.
My opinion: Lionel should offer corrected replacement trucks for owners to swap out, and recall any unsold models and fix them right. Hate to see this happen, but dang!
Mr Muffin did a nice video review of the cars before his live layout run on Facebook Saturday. If you watch the first segment of the run, things didn’t go so well with the milk train!
So what's the opinion of the cars rolling easily? Seems we all strive for cars that roll freely but are these too free rolling?
I just picked up my blue coal 2 bay hopper cars last nite (p/n:2026700). I am having the same issues with the couplers. I have to force them into my engine to couple them and have to do the same thing to uncouple them, which is a big disappointment when you are paying for the more expensive products. It almost seems like the coupler is too small.
For me the coupler issues are problem. I don't do a lot of coupling/uncoupling so that aspect is not as important to me. However, derailments due to a lack of articulation is a problem for me. I noticed the "Wine" milk car appears to have the same couplers but it's rated for 036. The CV and BM cars are rated for 031 ?
@MartyE posted:So what's the opinion of the cars rolling easily? Seems we all strive for cars that roll freely but are these too free rolling?
I like it, won't be an issue when I convert to kadee for switching operations. I know there's others who wont like it for other reasons.
Well I am batting 500 with these cars. Like I posted upthread, one car is fine through O36 ess curves and switches. However, I also ordered a B&M car that seems to be slightly out of gauge. It picks switches that no other car has ever picked. It seems like the axles are a little loose and one axle is definitely wider by a bit which I think is causing the derailment issue. Going to send this one back for a replacement that is in gauge.
@superwarp1 posted:I like it, won't be an issue when I convert to kadee for switching operations. I know there's others who wont like it for other reasons.
I'm not sure that rolling too much is as big of an issue as not rolling well enough. I can see the argument for both. If I had my preference though I'd like an easy roll to pull more.
@irish rifle posted:You are good through the 2015 catalogs. Lionel started to change the trucks and couplers in 2016 and then made additional changes to them in 2020. Some of the freight cars from the 2016 Signature Edition, like the PS-4 flatcars with the 40' trailers, still had the old trucks and couplers, but some of the other freight cars did not. The new trucks and couplers were on all of the Lionel freight cars by 2017.
The milk cars cataloged in 2015 are an anomaly, in that they were not actually built in 2015, but were made very recently, using the same tooling as those cataloged in the 2020 Big Book. For all intents and purposes, they should be viewed as though they were listed in the 2020 Big Book.
I recently bought a few of the 50' flatcars with the 20' trailers from the 2020 Big Book. I have not yet put them on the track, and hope that they do not have the same issues as the milk cars, particularly the couplers mounted solidly to the trucks, as they present a high risk of derailments. These are the first Lionel freight cars I have purchased from catalogs after the 2016 Signature Edition.
Pat
While this is a little off topic, I wanted to provide an update regarding the Lionel 50' flatcars with 20' trailers listed in the 2020 Big Book. Good news here. The couplers are in fact articulated. They move freely, independent of the trucks. So it sounds like the couplers may vary, depending upon the type of freight car at issue.
Pat
I just received my CNW Friendship car, Lionel 2026742. It's marked "Made in Vietnam". The paint and detail is one of the best I have seen in recent years, and one that I expected from Lionel. But the COUPLERS ARE AN ISSUE!
Next to impossible to proper connect to my other cars, be it Lionel, Atlas, KLine, MTH, etc. Even if you hand connect the cars, the coupler is so tight, there is absolute no play, up and down, side to side.
I think I can fix the coupler with my Dremel and/or a file, but is that what we should expect from Lionel, or any other suppler? I think not. They need to change the coupler supplier, make good to those that have purchased these duds by getting us new trucks or couplers.
The detail on this car, as well as my older scale cars, is fantastic. But when there is a defect, and let me assure you that this is a defect in the design, it needs to be addressed and corrected.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm a die hard Lionel fan. Lionel makes up 95% of my engines (30), 70% passenger cars and about 50% freight.
I was looking forward to buying the other Friendship cars but at this point, I wont. Another question, is this same coupler used on all the other freight cars that Lionel is releasing this year? I hope not.
Ray
I think cars need to be sent back to Lionel, refunds requested, they'll get the message if they end up with their inventory being returned. If I want to expect to work on a new car before I can use it, I wouldn't be spending $75 - $100 for a car.
@Tman129 posted:I think cars need to be sent back to Lionel, refunds requested, they'll get the message if they end up with their inventory being returned. If I want to expect to work on a new car before I can use it, I wouldn't be spending $75 - $100 for a car.
That's what I am doing. Car won't clear any switches because the wheels are out of gauge so its going back.
Late last night I was watching Mr. Muffins two live videos from the weekend. While he was running the milk cars, it is not exactly clear what was going on. He blamed himself at the end of the first one because he was running the trains by himself. At the end of the second video, there was a bit of a derailment. What appears to have happened is the train of milk cars stopped just past a switch. The next train wound up smacking into the caboose which was right on the switch.
It took a bit for Steve to get over there as it was on the backside on one of the upper levels. He rerailed the engine that hit the caboose, but ended the video shortly after so the cause only Steve knows.
I would imagine that the milk car train tripped the breaker on the section it was on, and that the switch was were there was another section and tripped that one with the crash.
Throughout both videos there appeared to be a few of these instances that played out. His military train had issues in the first and continued to have them. In the second the milk car train and those on it suffered a few over the 30 minutes of it.
It would be good to hear what Steve saw happen so he can further illustrate the issue of the trucks and couplers.
Sadly, the brake details are 100% wrong too. They should be above the center sill, not below. The original release cars were like this too, until they were corrected in later runs.
Don't open the door on your cars. The paint flakes of hinges.
Thanks for the review. I have the rutland car but haven't opened it yet. I'll have to take a look tonight😔
Yes, that paint flaked off my hinges as well. What a disappointment. I have been waiting since 2016 for my Supplee Car. I have opened the doors on my old Milk cars several times and never had that issue before. The green paint is way too light and bright as well. It looks like Kermit the frog on wheels.
@Tom 4 posted:It looks like Kermit the frog on wheels.
Its not easy being green.
Doors won't latch on the rutland car. When i tried to push the tab in to latch them, the paint flaked off the latch handle! Lionel never gets it right
Late last night I found on YouTube someone posting about the milk cars. They loved the design of the car, but as has been said, couplers stink. He struggled getting them connected(took about 4-6 tries) by manually slapping them together, not a pretty sight. Trying to disconnect was horrible both ways, trying to get the tab to release as well as pulling the car up off the engine. Granted he was just trying to lift it gently, but there looked to be no real play this it fighting to separate from the engines coupler.
The other part of the video was the derailment. He had the new car connected with an old car, both popped off the tracks on O72 curves. Old car pushed out to the outer rails, new car pushed inside.
The latch I was sure if he was having issues keeping it closed or if he was letting it sit open. He said problems open, but it was open, so not sure which he really meant. I guess these cars will be siding sitters unless we do something to them.
Well I decided to fix my Rutland car rather than return it. First, I machined out the coupler pocket and now it fits properly. The problem is the angled metal of the knuckle in the coupler pocket. Opening up that space by getting rid of that solved the fitment issue with other cars. Second issue, the trucks are delrin/plastic with metal side frames and one was warped causing the wheels not to ride properly on the track. After flattening out the trucks, it rides much better. Also, the wheels on one truck were pressed on the axles off center causing the truck to ride turned at a slight angle to the car. With that all fixed, i turned lastly to reinstalling the trucks. Come to find out, the threads inside the screw holes for mounting the trucks disintegrated upon removing the screws and needed a bit of something inserted into them to give the screw something to bite into...... OH and i had to carefully open up the small pocket on the doors for the door handle to latch into as well since those wouldn't close either. And yes, the paint is flaking on the door hinges and I didn't even open the doors. What a disaster of a new product. Buyer beware
Brian, can you describe how you flattened out the trucks?
@Doug Kinsman posted:Brian, can you describe how you flattened out the trucks?
Delrin is fairly flexible. All I did was warm it up some with hot air and then flex it back to flat and a little beyond. Delrin has a memory and as it cools will hold the shape you want. It doesn't need a lot of heat.
Gary, the recently-released Friendship PS-1 boxcars have the same trucks. I have all six of them. Based on your review, I got them out and ran them as a group on a loop of my layout that is O72. One or two of the cars routinely derail. I’m guessing if I sprinkle in some cars with articulating couplers they will work, but the idea of the Friendship train is to run them as a group. No bueno.
@Brian DeFazio posted:Well I decided to fix my Rutland car rather than return it. First, I machined out the coupler pocket and now it fits properly. The problem is the angled metal of the knuckle in the coupler pocket. Opening up that space by getting rid of that solved the fitment issue with other cars. Second issue, the trucks are delrin/plastic with metal side frames and one was warped causing the wheels not to ride properly on the track. After flattening out the trucks, it rides much better. Also, the wheels on one truck were pressed on the axles off center causing the truck to ride turned at a slight angle to the car. With that all fixed, i turned lastly to reinstalling the trucks. Come to find out, the threads inside the screw holes for mounting the trucks disintegrated upon removing the screws and needed a bit of something inserted into them to give the screw something to bite into...... OH and i had to carefully open up the small pocket on the doors for the door handle to latch into as well since those wouldn't close either. And yes, the paint is flaking on the door hinges and I didn't even open the doors. What a disaster of a new product. Buyer beware
If grandpa and grandma buy two of these for little Tommy, little Tommy better know how do make the cars useable? That sure encourages some one to get into the hobby. John
But isn’t little Tommy in the new station sounds diners? He should know better. All kidding aside, we’re ordering steak and getting government cheese. At steak prices nonetheless!
Brian & others,
Have second thoughts about buying any more of these cars?
I was ready to order the rest of the Friendship cars, but now I wont unless and until Lionel steps up to the plate and fixes this "defect" caused by unsuccessful engineering design, and lack of quality control.
RAY
@Ray of sunshine posted:Brian & others,
Have second thoughts about buying any more of these cars?
I was ready to order the rest of the Friendship cars, but now I wont unless and until Lionel steps up to the plate and fixes this "defect" caused by unsuccessful engineering design, and lack of quality control.
RAY
Let us know how you make out with that.
I just received a Lionel Shell single dome tanker car, and it’s got the one piece non swivel couplers. I am not a happy camper on this coupler design change.
Bob,
As others have said, take/send it back for a refund and let the dealer return it to Lionel. Or you could call Lionel direct on Monday and complain and tell them you want your money back.
RAY
@Ray of sunshine posted:Bob,
As others have said, take/send it back for a refund and let the dealer return it to Lionel. Or you could call Lionel direct on Monday and complain and tell them you want your money back.
RAY
Well here is a funny story related to returning a milk car. Get a call from Trainworld late yesterday and they tell me that Lionel produces all the same wheels as it pertains to my milk car return. I then informed the gentleman that the wheels are out of gauge and not parallel on the truck. I get an aggressive response repeating that the wheels are fine and that all Lionel wheels are the same. My RMA request was to replace the defective car with a new one and the Trainworld employee stated that he was going to send the same one back to me because there was nothing wrong with it. Mind you this car derailed over every switch on my layout and a couple of curves that I have NEVER had a derailment on. Also, my calipers said the wheels were not in gauge by a solid 3mm. I took him up on the offer to refund my credit card and I will never hassle Trainworld again. I guarantee they will resell that car to someone else because they don't think anything is wrong with it.
As a summary of the posts I have read on this new coupler/truck design I came up with the following:
1. These new couplers do not mate with existing Lionel (or other manufacturer's) couplers. Lionel came out with the knuckle coupler in 1946. So, these new couplers will not mate with the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of couplers made since 1946. That's 75 years of couplers!
2. These newly designed couplers will not function with OTHER newly designed Lionel couplers!
3. The new couplers, when part of a running train, cause derailments.
4. These new trucks have non-functioning springs. They are just cosmetic. The previous springs actually worked.
5. The previous reefer trucks had printing on the side frames. These new trucks do not.
6. The previous trucks were all metal. The new trucks contain some plastic parts.
A. The reefer bodies riding on these new trucks and couplers have flaking paint, especially when trying to open the doors.
B. Some buyers have had to resort to filing and drilling the newly designed couplers to make them work properly.
C. I wonder who thought these new trucks and couplers were a good idea and actually signed off on them?
D. Returning these to the dealer (and eventually back to Lionel) seems like the best way to let Lionel know of the problems with these trucks and that they are not really compatible with existing equipment.
John
I’ll going to attempt to convert mine to Kadee tonight. Might do another video or pics at the least
A few comments and pics. I picked up two of the new milk cars today. The NYC and the B&O.
I wanted the NYC to go with my existing NYC cars from the previous issue. When I got the new one on the layout is
when the problem became apparent. As you can see by the photos, the new car will not correctly couple to the previous issue NYC cars.
I was not able to make them fully link even by lifting the new car and lowering it down into the older coupler and also trying the opposite way.
There is enough resistance that it causes the front wheels to lift slightly off the rails.
I did some experimenting by removing one set of trucks from the new car and one set of trucks from the old car. The trucks are interchangeable. If you happen to have extra sets of trucks or come across previous issue milk cars with good trucks you can swap them onto the newer car without issues.
Also, be warned, the newer cars have the truck screws into the body of the car way too tight. So tight I came close to rounding the heads out on the screws that attach the truck to the body. And yes, I used the correct size screw driver. The old cars only took a fraction of the muscle and their truck mount screws came right out.
Do I agree with this...NO!
Somewhere, somehow, something got messed up and the end result is the new doesn't work with the old.
Beyond frustrated....
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These couplers must have been designed by someone that never owned a Lionel car before they worked for Lionel. The way the couplers droop down, looks like they need a little blue pill to get them back up again.
Looks like the new and old colors on the cars don't match either.
I have 3 of the newly released 8k tank cars with the new trucks. It felt weird to buy them before reading any customer comments or reviews on them, not to mention any actual product photos and sure enough my instincts were right. The paint and details on the Deep Rock car are pretty sloppy and I considered sending that one back for that reason alone before I knew of the trucks and couplers. None have been run so I may still do that. I wonder if they have the same type of screws holding them on as the milk cars?
However it all turns out, a lesson was learned.
I thought I got lucky when only one car arrived with my Rutland hoppers. Couldn’t remembered what I ordered. To my dismay. 3 more arrived last night. I run Kadee’s so for me the couplers not an issue and I’ve never opened the doors. But I will have to remove the trucks. I removed one for a photo and can concur with Dave. They don’t come off without a fight. Screw used is not designed for plastic. Not sure if they added a Loctite of some sort. Just make sure you use a good screwdriver. Still I feel the pain for the ones that ordered these lemons in what used to be one of Lionel’s nicest cars. Even the 2 railers were converting them. They were that nicely detailed.
I picked up some older cars on the bay rather cheap just for the trucks for some projects just recently. A couple of brass Bordens cars. I wanted 3 rail trucks on them. I heavily modified the stock trucks to lower them. The project came out well. I feel now like I destroyed some piece of art. I basically just used the side frames and might have just as easily used the newer ones as the trucks are no longer sprung.
It may be a while before I unbox my cars. They will need mounts made up for Kadee’s. I have converted my Rutland hoppers to Kadee’s already. The only good thing I can say about them is they roll good. Added on parts either broke, missing, not glued on straight. Really poor workmanship.
Atlas, I know your not listening. I asked years ago to look into offering your 50 ft. Express reefers as milk cars. Just remove the ice hatches. They would be prototypical in a variety of schemes. I was told it would be a big project to make the tanks inside. At least they were familiar with Lionel’s car. How many of you look at the Tanks or open the fragile doors ? Atlas still makes a quality car. They just have no passion for O scale in getting product to market. Jim Weaver would have listened. Joe Hayter knew his stuff. I’m afraid most of the guys left involved in the manufacturing end other than Scott Mann just don’t get it. Lionel may at some point be the only game left in town. I’ll have money to spend. But I really don’t need anymore.
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Mario’s shims work perfectly on the milk cars.
I was just watching another video on YouTube about the new milk cars. The poster contacted his dealer, his dealer contacted either Ryan or Dave and they are I guess planning what they're going to do. Hmm????
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I was just watching another video on YouTube about the new milk cars. The poster contacted his dealer, his dealer contacted either Ryan or Dave and they are I guess planning what they're going to do. Hmm????
I saw that too - it was a good video demonstration of the problem, even showing one of the Metca PRR milk cars.
Here is the video. Not my video, hopefully I embedded it right from my phone.
With more complaints lodged, it looks like I have to add #7 and # 8 to my original post:
As a summary of the posts I have read on this new coupler/truck design I came up with the following:
1. These new couplers do not mate with existing Lionel (or other manufacturer's) couplers. Lionel came out with the knuckle coupler in 1946. So, these new couplers will not mate with the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of couplers made since 1946. That's 75 years of couplers!
2. These newly designed couplers will not function with OTHER newly designed Lionel couplers!
3. The new couplers, when part of a running train, cause derailments.
4. These new trucks have non-functioning springs. They are just cosmetic. The previous springs actually worked.
5. The previous reefer trucks had printing on the side frames. These new trucks do not.
6. The previous trucks were all metal. The new trucks contain some plastic parts.
7. The brake detail underneath is not between the frame and the center sill.
8. There were no Kadee pads as had been advertised.
A. The reefer bodies riding on these new trucks and couplers have flaking paint, especially when trying to open the doors.
B. Some buyers have had to resort to filing and drilling the newly designed couplers to make them work properly.
C. I wonder who thought these new trucks and couplers were a good idea and actually signed off on them?
D. Returning these to the dealer (and eventually back to Lionel) seems like the best way to let Lionel know of the problems with these trucks and that they are not really compatible with existing equipment.
John
@John Knapp posted:D. Returning these to the dealer (and eventually back to Lionel) seems like the best way to let Lionel know of the problems with these trucks and that they are not really compatible with existing equipment.
John
This is true with any defective item from the box that requires more than just putting a screw back in or a minor detail part to be re-attached. By "fixing" these problems we accept mediocrity. Any manufacturer that sees this will just continue to push out the same knowing we'll take care of it ourselves.
Dave NYC,
Just saw your video, and glad that you also contacted Lionel. I too send an separate email to Dave Olson several weeks ago detailing the issues with the couplers. I do NOT have the milk car, but did buy a CNW Friendship car that has the same issues.
I hope that Lionel will step up to the plate and correct this serious issue not only on future releases, but will send new trucks and couplers to those of us that purchased these defective designed trucks/couplers at no cost.
When other manufactures were informed of issues on new releases, they not only fixed future releases, but shipped replacement parts to owners at no costs, Atlas and Athearn are 2 that I personally know of.
I really would like to buy the entire Friendship fleet that Lionel announces, 6 cars, but until I know the issue will be fixed, I won't buy any of the new freight cars from Lionel.
As I see it, both Lionel and those of us that refuse to buy new cars with this defective design, it's a lose/lose proposition.
RAY
I Know Lionel, and the powers to be are aware of these issues. What really bugs me is their silence on all these issues over the years. Admit there's an issue, say we are looking into it. Tell us if you are going to do something or not. PLEASE. Communication and honesty would go a long way in restoring my faith in Lionel.
I think these trucks are here to stay and since it's so easy to remove and replace these couplers from off the trucks. It would be easy if Lionel were to offer new couplers. I can see that happening. Will it? who knows.
@Ray of sunshine posted:Dave NYC,
Just saw your video, and glad that you also contacted Lionel. I too send an separate email to Dave Olson several weeks ago detailing the issues with the couplers. I do NOT have the milk car, but did buy a CNW Friendship car that has the same issues.
I hope that Lionel will step up to the plate and correct this serious issue not only on future releases, but will send new trucks and couplers to those of us that purchased these defective designed trucks/couplers at no cost.
When other manufactures were informed of issues on new releases, they not only fixed future releases, but shipped replacement parts to owners at no costs, Atlas and Athearn are 2 that I personally know of.
I really would like to buy the entire Friendship fleet that Lionel announces, 6 cars, but until I know the issue will be fixed, I won't buy any of the new freight cars from Lionel.
As I see it, both Lionel and those of us that refuse to buy new cars with this defective design, it's a lose/lose proposition.
RAY
Ray, it's not my video, but I do agree that Lionel needs to address this with a fix. This is going to be very damaging to their sales of they don't get a fix for this as I have already stated elsewhere that I am not getting any rolling stock out of the new catalog because of truck and coupler potential issues. I say potential because of the descriptions on all the cars in the O-Scale section of the catalog. They all appear to be trucks not being sprung trucks. On the O-Gauge side however, there seems to be a great variety of diecast sprung trucks. Seems to be backwards to me as usually the high-end stuff has diecast sprung trucks. The couplers vary in their descriptions so it is hard to determine if they will be a distorted lobster claw like the milk cars have and the hoppers too(if that was the case).
It seems that this is the new norm for now, and is a great disappointment. As Gary said, Lionel is going to have to restore our faith in them, which if they fail on this, it's on them. I really hope that they get on here to go into how they will fix this, especially before the cutoff on the new catalog as they lose more sales. As far as changing my mind on rolling stock purchases for this catalog, there is almost no interest in what they offered, so that is also partly why I'm not buying.
Gary (Superwarp), you hit it on the head. There needs to be a statement from Lionel. I know that they are reading these posts and getting a lot of separate emails complaining about the seriousness of the issue. I am sure they are tired of hearing all these complaints and I hope they are working on a fix.
If they are, they need to tell us, even if it just a quick response. I don't expect an immediate solution, but sure would like to know that they are "looking in to the issue".
I am sure that other manufacturers, Atlas, Bachmann, Sunset, Menards, even MTH and others, are not happy with the negative issues Lionel is getting. Neither is OGR, CTT and other model magazines. This bashing of Lionel doesn't help our hobby.
I'm a die hard Lionel fan and supporter. We all want them to continue to succeed. All this bashing and complaining (I'm one of them) now needs to be turned into a positive. And only Lionel can make that happen by coming out and telling us what they are planning on doing about these issues.
There are several, as I understand it. A poorly designed truck and coupler, I still say it's a "defect", and the paint flaking.
So, it's time, Mr. Howard Hitchcock to post a message that addresses these issues.
Thank you,
RAY
