Lionel says goodbye to transformer controlled train sets

Guys, let's keep this conversation civil.

The remotes get lost, they can break over time, batteries can leak, and if one acquires a good number of engines the amount of remotes could get out of control.   It's just not for me.

Let me clarify my remarks. First, I am not calling out the sky is falling. As I mentioned in my OP, there are many other manufacturers of O scale trains who produce conventional locomotives. I also mentioned that with the exception of my PW F3, all of my other locomotives are command control. I am a fan of it. It also makes wiring a layout much more simpler.

Still, I can't explain the reason why I reacted as I did to the comment by Mr. Ashba. As I see it, conventional control is the foundation of O scale. On top of that, we add the capability to expand control of our locomotives with TMCC, Legacy, DCS, LC -/+ and any future systems. With so many incompatible command systems in O scale due to a lack of standards, conventional control of locomotives is the lowest common denominator when it comes to running trains.

Since I don't have any LC+ locos or the Legacy system I really could care less what they can do or can't do but it does seem strange that if you have Lionels $400 Legacy system that you can't operate a Lionel LC+ locomotive with it. 

   Bill T.

My simple interpretation is that there's still going to be transformers, but the throttle is permanently a separate device.

I think the varying of track voltage and conventional operation both have to be separated from "transformer controlled." I run mostly postwar trains all conventional, yet I do it with a Cab1, TMCC Command Base, and track power controllers. TMCC operates all my vintage 022 and 711 switches. Copper wire still runs to the switch motors and controls them the way they always were. I have a few sidings controlled by block power controllers. The trains are all operated in the old style by varying the track voltage with the Cab1 and the TPC. There's still a full manual control panel with a switch for everything. The only thing not being used is the lever on my ZW, which just stays set to the max.

There is so much more to see around the layout when you can sit or stand in different locations away from the transformer. You can walk along side an engine as it runs down the straightaway and lower the voltage before it gets to the curve without being land locked to a transformer control lever. If there's a section of track that derails an engine on the far side of the layout, I can take the hand held throttle over there and watch the problem up close instead of standing 10 feet away. 

Once again Lionel DOES not listen to its customers. Ok Lionel you say good buy to transformers... I have long ago said Goodbye to Lionel. $70 dollar freight cars $1000+ locomotives, $built to order system, too many cancellations in the catalogs. Wont sell parts for the trains that you produce.  And you still wonder why people are overwhelmingly choosing HO trains. Goodbye Lionel 

Wow Kettle calling the Pot black here.  Everyone else has ulterior motive but you!

How would you know how much money Lionel is taking too the bank?  G

Interesting the different interpretations of what a Lionel employee said. Remember we are hearing this second hand.

I did not hear anything about Lionel no longer making transformers, only that variable transformers were not going to be included in starter sets. Even those starter sets would include a power source, just not one with handles. 

Lionel just released its new ZW-L a couple of years ago. Why would they stop making that or any other transformer for that matter?

Pete

"How would you know how much money Lionel is taking too the bank?"

Because Howard Hitchcock, Mike Reagan and others have told us that LionChief and LionChief Plus are great hits for them. These aren't people who are going to lie to us about such things, or anything else.

You know what's really odd?  Someone who is contemptuous of these new products constantly seeking out threads and spreading negativity.  And questioning other people's motives when they are obviously invested financially in the technology that LionChief and LionChief Plus is challenging.  I'm merely an informed and experienced consumer .  You have a conflict of interest.  Why don't you leave discussion of LionChief and LionChief Plus to those who own the products? Raining on other people's parade is ugly. 

My first reaction to the news was a bit of sadness.   And I am a big fan of LC+!  

Well, it makes sense, and will appeal to more kids and families.

So if Lionel goes the next step with a battery power option for LC+, say LC-B that can run two-rail, I will build another layout as two-rail but also keep my three rail layout with conventional.   Could be fun!   Lets, see, I will need a separate train garage, and a pot of money for new engines and track .....   Lionel will see more profits from me!   

Now now Neil, calm down. :-)

This is a good post and it is helpful when folks look at the layout in functional blocks. 

At some point wires could go away with point to point radio control and battery operated trains and accessories.  Or down to just the wire to the track and accessories while all control is remote and truly wire less.

As far as a transformer I just look at the price comparison of the LC PE Set versus the conventional set.  Both had the same stuff inside except for a few thing.

The engines are functionally identical except they removed handrails in the LC set (saves a step in manufacturing) and the electronics switch over from electronic reverse to LC electronic.  The tender went from an air whistle to a speaker.

The biggest issue is changing from a $149 MSRP CW-80 to the Wall wart that is probably $49 MSRP.   The LC set MSRP was $20 less than the Conventional set.

I imagine if the cost to manufacture the LC set was significantly less because the transformer was removed, and can even offset the probable higher cost for the LC electronics.  In the end allowing Lionel to price the set $20 lower and probably increase profit margin.

How it changes the dynamics is the new family introducing trains to their children.  Starter sets no longer are expandable with out an investment in the $149 CW-80.  Not only that but the DC walwart is not compatible with the AC transformer.  No phasing the 2 as you add a block to your growing layout.  G

Apparently you don't understand the corporate hive mind set. Of course they are going to say publicly it's a great idea even if it sucks. Would you expect any of them to say, "Personally I think this is a bad product with no future, but since they pay my salary I'm going to play along." Businesses lie all the time from blatant safety issues to sticking with an idea simply because the big shots want it done regardless of it's viability simply because they won't admit it's a bad idea.

Jerry

I am not conflicted and I am not spreading negativity, I am discussing the pros and cons of the system.  I own an LC engine so I have the right to post right, or are you the arbitrator of who can post and what they can say?

Are you a Lionel employee?  Are you conflicted?  You seem to be.  G

"
Are you a Lionel employee?  Are you conflicted?  You seem to be.  G"

Yes, I'm Howard Hitchcock's personal assistant and part owner of the company.  Neil Young asks me for advice on his every move related to toy trains.  Mike Reagan and I are drinking buddies.  I invented electricity.  You've forced me to reveal all my secrets .

LOL, I don't think Neil is getting a check from Lionel yet but then I could be wrong.

   Bill T.

Geeez kids, calm down.

Here is a little thinker for ya - In twenty years, most of the membership of this board will be on the wrong side of the grass I am guessing.

Lionel cannot exist without customers. What is the better bet for a customer? A group of old farts that are dying off or the yuppie mommy and daddy who want to get a train for their curtain climber?

How long could Lionel exist selling $1000 dollar locos to us older farts?

Yea, this is a good thing and I hope they carry it further.

Ted

"Apparently you don't understand the corporate hive mind set."

Apparently you've never met Mike Reagan.

LionChief and LionChief Plus are terrific sales and financial successes for Lionel.  The evidence is everywhere, primarily in the remarkable growth in sets and locos made with this technology. 

Lionel is the only company placing two page ads in OGR. Lionel is the only company doing significant new tooling of locos, rolling stock and accessories.  The signs of good things happening financially, even without viewing anyone's books are quite substantial.  Look at their competitors.  Some competitors are doing no advertising whatsoever.  Walk into a hobby shop and ask them how many Lionel sets they sell versus other makes.  The ratio is usually 10:1 or even 100:1.  No Kool-Aid, just reality and evidence.

"I have the right to post right, or are you the arbitrator of who can post and what they can say?"

I'm attempting to persuade you to post about trains and not about me.  The message is not getting through.

Reading all of the responses are quite amusing but got me to think.

O scale batter operated engines could be a good idea as a separate product and if Lionel could make two rail that is non corrosive (stainless steel) with the same track foot print it would make a great garden railway instead of G /Gauge one scale.

Taking up less room out side, plus getting people out in the summer then to return to the indoor set in the winter. If this battery operated train is put on the 3 rail track inside layout there will not be a issue of shorting out three rail track and one could run those Trains.

Just a thought?

I've tried to stay out of this thread for a couple of days now, but I just can't resist anymore.  The entertainment value is too immense.  

Quite frankly, I still can't forget that first video Trainworld posted here some time ago, where the speed control dial of the LC remote popped off during the demo.    Chinese manufacturing quality at its best.  Nothing like live TV.  Gotta love it!!!  

David

Best post in the entire thread.  When I think of how many TV remotes with buttons worn out or gone bad I've tossed over the years. I believe in time, these plastic remotes will become thee big problematic issue.   Especially so since kids will be using them. 

My Legacy remote has made the trip back to Lionel 4 times over the years. Twice it was repaired and twice it was replaced...

Joe

This isn't a new phenomenon either... When Mike Reagan ran Train America in Boardman, Ohio they used to sell far more MTH sets than Lionel sets. Mike used to bash the Lionel sets pretty hard back in the day. Funny how things change. Perhaps this helps Lionel make better products today because of his past experience?

I have no idea whether LionChief is a success or not. Personally, it is nothing to get excited about. We had G scale Bachmann trains with remote controls and sounds 20 years ago (That ran on 2 rail track!). One remote per engine? -no thanks. One remote for every 3 engines? -still no thanks. Of course I'm not the target market. I'm glad there are folks who like it. It fills a niche.

If I had to guess, I would say that the reason Lionel advertises so much and can afford new tooling is because they are generating the most profit based on their margins. If certain distributors/dealers can sell products at 50%+ off retail on blow-out that should give you some idea of how much profit is actually built in.

The reason you don't see more MTH advertising is possibly because they have decided to branch out into other areas. I've had 1:1 conversations with MTH folks who told me that the US O gauge market is declining while European O and HO have both been growing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that investing in the growth markets is a good idea for the future.

We don't have near the amount of new O products today than we have over the past 20 years. I expect that trend to continue. If you read the tea leaves you see Lionel moving their products to the extremes. Low-cost with features, and High cost with everything for the collectors. The collector market will continue to dwindle. Will the LionChief trains bring in enough new blood to allow them to keep making new tooling? Time will tell, but I have my opinion.

Lionel has a hit with Lion Chef+, in my opinion. My only compliant with the 3 rail market and this is not just with Lionel. I wish they made the command systems compatible with each other or backward compatible; similar to the DCC systems in the other scales.

It would be great if LC+ could work with the Legacy, just saying.

The O gauge market is certainly fragmented today and it seems Lionel is trying to find which direction it is headed. Whether they succeed or not is another question. Discussions about the hobby and the market are good but the personal sniping and attacks are not. They turn me off. Lionel buys teir transformers from someone(China??) and they will always be around. We can always go back to using the old acid wet cell batteries from 100 yrs ago !!

This should not cause any fear or panic in anyone.  In fact, this should be welcomed.  Starter sets are geared towards the entry level hobbyist, families, etc.  Giving them a set that offers upgraded features and a taste of command control in lieu of the traditional transformer makes a whole lot of sense.  I don't see much, if any, negatives.  If someone really wants to buy a transformer, Lionel and others, offer many different varieties.  And if this helps Lionel to keep on making us products at the higher end of the sphere then it's a win, win.  BigRail

Too bad I can't like this post more than once!

Ted

And the rollers in an old ZW couldn't go bad? No one has ever had an issue with an electrical cord becoming frayed (which could burn down your house) or having to replace a burnt fuse? Arguments like these can easily go both ways and really are without merit.

Personally, I think this is a step in the right direction. Whenever I get around to building a permanent layout it'll be completely digital, completely command control driven. Speaking as a younger person, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to pull out my phone or tablet (with voice control too, "Siri, power up my M1a!") and remotely run my layout from it. The flexibility it affords can't be beat. 

I thought the one loco-one remote concept was interesting but not very appealing simply because there would be too many.  For the one set around the tree crowd it is a great introduction to the hobby.  The next generation of customers will not have any connection to the generation that waited for the catalog, enjoyed the smell of ozone and could fix everything with a screwdriver and soldering iron.  The comment that resonates is within 20 years many participants of this forum will be on the wrong side of the lawn.  Lionel, MTH and whoever is left has to develop a new customer base.  I'm not sure what will attract that new customer.  I grew up at a time when the entertainment options were few, a handful of television stations, party line telephones, even a car was a luxury.  Train watching was something to do until they took away the trains.  There are lots of options now so in order to survive Lionel has to create a connection of some kind.  Technology will be that connection.  At least that is what they hope.  

Stewart, this has been a very civil -- and at times, entertaining -- discussion.  Guys are simply calling out the skewed information that comes when folks drink too much orange Kool-Aid before posting.

In all seriousness, everyone is entitle to believe what they want.  And every opinion here is as valuable as the next.  But readers will ultimate decide when objectivity is compromised due to the overdose on Kool-Aid. 

David

>>>And the rollers in an old ZW couldn't go bad? No one has ever had an issue with an electrical cord becoming frayed (which could burn down your house) or having to replace a burnt fuse? Arguments like these can easily go both ways and really are without merit.<<

If you're using an analogy between a transformer and a specific remote, you're not close..    A decade from now, what happens to a LC set if the remote is lost or broken?

Joe

I don't think we are the right audience to be commenting on this and by the time the uneducated family just starting out becomes educated it will be too late for it to matter.   Lionel is just doing what Lionel does - takes it's brand recognition out for a proverbial spin to see what it can do.   Reduce costs and increase profits now so they can make more profit in the future as well when that same new family wants to expand and needs to buy items in the future at higher price points (and profit margins) than now.   It's just business but for the life of me, I fail to understand why anyone who is knowledgeable about the hobby would choose Lionel's non-scale offerings over the competition unless they just plain and simple like Lionel (and there's nothing wrong with that - it's just not my cup of tea).

--Greg

I'm knowledgeable about the hobby, as are a lot of my friends.   A bunch of us have scale, highly sceniced HO layouts.   We also have non-scale O gauge layouts that run all manner of equipment, scale and non,  prototype and non.

And good for any company who can reduce costs and increase profits.

Greg, pardon me if I partially disagree with you.

While Lionel's move to LionChief isn't compatible with the 1st generation (TMCC) and 2nd generation (DCS, Legacy) control systems, I don't think it is just a spin around the block for the brand.  There are a couple of innovations here:

• It is approachable, price-wise, for the entry-level consumer.
• It is compatible with remotes / user interfaces that are widely accepted now throughout the toy world (R/C airplanes, cars, boats, etc.).

You may be right regarding Lionel's profit motives.  After all, they are in business to make money.  But the entry market is quite distinct from one represented by us old farts, er mature train hobbyists.   I think Lionel is trying to seize control of the top of the marketing funnel (as Jerry Calabrese once said).  Those entry-level consumers are a very long ways (time & money wise) away from where we are.  Yeah, LionChief may well be a point product, but it may be the right point product to hold these entry level folks until they mature into us.

George

And one more thing. "Hacking" or modifying your conventional engine to run TMCC is part of the hobby. If not for folks like ERR, a few of my engines would still be in pieces.

Now, that said I have plans to stuff an ERR board into my Thomas set for ****s-n-giggles.

My only beef with LionCheap is that. The remote breaks so easily. You can go on ebay and buy another for a mere 15-20$ depending on the engine.

On the other side of the coin, we look at how collectible most of our trains are. I've had some time to think about this, but this means that as one company stops making something it grows in value.

Again, my only beef is Direct Current operation.

Looking into my Crystal ball in the future. I see many RC and or command control products (Trains, plans and automobile hobbies) will be utilizing a smart phone, just download the application.

I don't mean to add negativity to this thread, but let's be honest and factual. There isn't really anything innovative about what they are doing other than it can run on different types of power.  As I mentioned earlier, Bachmann had remote controlled G gauge sets 20+ years ago.

LionChief is about a price point, not innovation, and that is fine. It seems to fill a niche. The more LionChief sets they make, the more profit they make, the more ability they have to make new products of ALL types. That's a good thing.

I would like to see them continue to develop a system that enables battery power so we can get to 2 rail track operation with the play factor and awesome sound that Legacy has. THAT is a much bigger concern IMHO. New people to the hobby that don't have nostalgia for the 3rd rail really tend not to like it. At least that has been my experience. If I were Lionel that's what I would be looking into long term.

**** this is funny!  And predictable!

Legacy folks :"Lionchief is an evil plan to destroy Legacy! Lionel is doomed; if only they'd listen to me!"

Conventional folks: "Lionchief is an evil plan to destroy transformers forever! Lionel is doomed; if only they'd listen to me!"

MTH folks: "You fools!  MTH is superior, Lionel is doomed, you will all be assimilated!"

Looked outside. Sky still not falling.