falconservice posted:For some reason on the Norfolk Southern SD60M the stairs and pilot are mounted low while on the BN 1991 the Stairs and Pilot are mounted higher.
Andrew
It is the angle of the photo and the fact that it was taken on a sharp curve. Take a look at the overhead shot of that loco. You will see that the truck is closer to the camera than the body forcing the huge gap.
Surefire posted:Those look awesome, thanks for the video! Disappointed that Lionel re-used the SD40 sounds from a few months ago though.
Actually, the SD40 sounds were incorrect. This SD60M sounds like a 710.
The SD40 needs a 645 sound.
Here's my very short video. I only had volume about half way up because people were sleeping. You can hear the smoke unit kick into "overdrive" when going into reverse and forward.
Thanks to all who responded to this thread. I just picked up my BN SD60M #1991 Freedom engine today. It's a great looking engine and mine will see duty soon on our Kennywood layout. There are several items about this engine that haven't been brought up here-one good and one not so good(both in my opinion). First(good news), there has been discussion on another thread about Lionel no longer installing an Odyssey on/off switch on their engines. Well, this engine still has that switch factory installed so I don't know when Lionel has actually stopped installing them or it is only for engines of upcoming manufacture. Second(not so good news). There is no lift off roof section on the shell for access to the Odyssey, program/run, smoke/no smoke switches nor the volume control knob. Lionel has reverted back to installing these on the bottom of this engine, in the frame located above the front truck assembly. To me, this is a big step BACKWARDS(for an engine listing at $649 MSRP). So, if you have chubby fingers or don't have a photographic memory as to exactly which switch does what, you'll be removing the engine from the track to make any changes. In addition, the owners manual is WRONG, as it shows a lift off roof section for access to the switches. From the videos posted at least the engines sound good and appear to run well.
Nick
Good point. I noticed that right away. Why publish an engine specific manual when it's not even slightly correct? Thankfully these are switches I'll use very seldom if at all.
To me the horn almost sounds like what they put in the SD80's and Dash 9's.
The gap between the trucks and the frame is accurate, but they left out all the parts that hang under the frame so the trucks can swing on tight radius curves.
Andrew
Awesome Locomotives!
I personally think I will probably try and pick up a Legacy Norfolk Southern one someday, does anyone have any videos of the legacy NS Sd60M? Also it would be cool to see some videos of the lionchief ones, I want to see how those turned out.
I just recieved the LionChief Plus Union Pacific and I am impressed with the detail on this unit and highly recommend it to anyone considering one. Out of the box the rear coupler was loose but easily fixed with a screw driver. Sounds and smokes great. The blue tooth app is cool for all the adjustments it offers but I prefer the remote for operations. I have all 0-36 curves and while it does maneuver the curves and switches ok, I plan to pick up some larger curves for better operation.
My lionchief sd60M arrived yesterday and the horn is amazing. As others have mentioned, the detail is also excellent. The similar loco in my stable is the Legacy SD-80MAC 6-38584 and, other than length, very similar units. My only suggestion is that the lionchief does not have the operating ditch lights of the SD-80MAC, a very cool feature. Seems that would be a good idea to include for a few bucks!
I don't think I've ever met a single three railer that has a good ear for sound accuracy! Don't tell me Lionel engines great when they literally use the same prime mover sounds in modern units with 710s that they use in SD40-2s. And it sounds in that video like they made the horn a little bit better from their previous RS3L sound file, but it's still pretty far off. All the preaching that I see on here just disgusts me. I hate to trash talk but it's the truth and it will never change if none of us say anything about it. As for the Heritage SD70ACes, that is NOT what a K5LLA sounds like! Yuck!!!
On review, I'm guessing 90% of you reading that don't even know what a K5LLA even is. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"All the preaching that I see on here just disgusts me."
Surely there are more important things in life to be disgusted by? 
I'm guessing 99% of purchasers could care less about the exact fidelity of the horn in a three rail locomotive. These products are made by tiny companies with limited resources, limited sales and, in particular, only one or two folks available to address such issues. There are limits to how much time and money can be spent on what most consumers consider trivial/minor issues. I'm guessing you may be disgusted by these answers, but they're the truth, I'm 99% sure.
If I'm gonna pay $600+ for a diesel engine, I really wouldn't think accurate sound files are too much to ask for.
Lionel is a toy train company so accuracy in sound, details, colors, number/letter fonts, etc. are not a priority.
Once again. If I'm gonna pay $600+ for a diesel engine, I really wouldn't think accurate sound files are too much to ask for, especially when I can get better results in HO for literally only 1/3rd the price. I would also recommend using the word "toy" rather conservatively, considering how much work is put into these models aesthetically. I don't mean to pick a fight here, but as mentioned before for the price of these things I expect results.
Just sayin..... and not to pick a fight,
I would rather see the money for an "Accurate" sound file spent on ditch lights. They are much more fun ......
.
The bottom line of this discussion is revenue- cost. if you were Mr. Lionel (or MTH for that matter), what feature is worth spending money to add to get one more customer. Take my ditch lights, if they cost $10 per unit to add and a 1000 units are made, the additional cost is $10,000. If the margin on an SD-60 is $250, then Lionel or MTH has to have my ditch lights add 40 more purchasers before they break even. Based on this thread, I don't think ditch lights are a deal breaker for most of us. Me for example, I bought without the ditch lights but would have been "delighted' to get them. So I think that is why they are not there and I am fine with that- the SD60M meets my value hurdle.
Similarly with the sound file, most of us are very happy with the current sound (and I admit I have no idea what a K5LLA is). Would I have paid $5 more to get the "correct" file? No and I wonder how many people did not buy the SD60M because of the sound file. My guess, based on this thread, is maybe one person-not enough to offset the cost? My guess is between the speaker, the electronics, and the sound file there has to be some coordination that costs a bit of money.
I think this is the point of the "toy" discussion.
Changing a sound file costs pennies. Same board, same speaker. Just gotta pay someone to get a recording, which costs next to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Now what frustrates me is how many people take this standpoint, that's it's perfectly fine that things the we KNOW are wrong with these models don't have to be corrected. Especially when as mentioned, all that has to be changed is a sound file- and it can be done with practically no additional cost. I'll say it once again- for $600 an engine, I expect results!! Does no one agree with me on that?
Landsteiner posted:"All the preaching that I see on here just disgusts me."
Surely there are more important things in life to be disgusted by?
Well I am the 1%.
In my opinion, I would much rather have the physical details prototypically correct, such as fixed pilots and full length hand rails. I've listened to enough Diesel engines sounds and air horns over my 50+ years in the railroad motive power business, and I really could care less if the horn isn't "exactly correct". That said, except for the old fashioned "Blatt" air horn sound, I still have a hard time telling a BNSF diesel, from a UP diesel, from a CSX diesel, from an NS diesel.
I think what we need to consider is that the engine in question is a Lionchief model. Like an MTH Railking model, it is designed to be a reasonably accurate stand-in for the real locomotive. If this engine were a Legacy, Vision Line, or Premier engine, models that are supposed to be as accurate as cost and techniques will allow, then one should be concerned about the fidelity of the sound file.
Everyone in this hobby has their own preferences. There are some who want the reasonable stand-in locomotive, and do not care as much about true scale and prototype fidelity as much as whether it runs well in the environment they have or not. That is who this model is for. There are also the 3-rail scale and high-rail folks who are concerned about absolute scale and audio fidelity, and for whom the Premier and Legacy engines are made. While I personally would not spend $600 for this engine, there are other folks with different preferences that are perfectly willing to do so, and I accept that.
It's all a matter of perspective and taste, and what tradeoffs one is willing to make. Some are willing to trade a smaller degree of accuracy for a smaller price tag and the ability to run an engine on 36" radius curves. For those who are willing to sacrifice affordability and curve radius to more prototypical details, there are other options. And for those who wish to run engines on 36" radius curves AND have a model that looks as accurate as possible, there is the possibility of converting to another scale.
@T1Titan_ZachF posted:Landsteiner posted:"All the preaching that I see on here just disgusts me."
Surely there are more important things in life to be disgusted by?
Well I am the 1%.
So am I, and even if we are the minority I do not believe our opinion should be ignored. (Keeping in mind 1% is an exaggeration, I'm sure there are a few of us out there )
While I would certainly prefer accurate sounds, there's more that go into it than you might think. First of all, you have to find a real SD60 to borrow and record the sounds, then you have to have someone spend hours adapting that sound to custom generated code that relates the speed of the locomotive to the sound, as well as corresponding load levels adjusted by the train brake and other features. There's a lot of work behind a computer to have recorded sounds in a model.
Will Ebbert posted:While I would certainly prefer accurate sounds, there's more that go into it than you might think. First of all, you have to find a real SD60 to borrow and record the sounds, then you have to have someone spend hours adapting that sound to custom generated code that relates the speed of the locomotive to the sound, as well as corresponding load levels adjusted by the train brake and other features. There's a lot of work behind a computer to have recorded sounds in a model.
If it can be done in HO scale, there’s absolutely no reason it can’t be done in O.
Sounds are big reason most of my fleet is weighted towards MTH. It’s often argued Lionel has the better sound quality. Big whup. If I can hear the sounds the quality it’s fine. After all, they’re models, not the real thing. I can go trackside if I want to feel the ground shake. Sound accuracy is more important to me than quality. It seems like a lot of people on the forum get this mixed up. When I put an engine on the track, I expect it to sound like the real thing (again, accuracy wise, not in decibels). When it comes to MTH, I find more often than not am I satisfied. MTH’s GP38 sounds like it was recorded directly off a real unit. My SD70ACe’s, likewise. Every unit that should have sound differences correctly displays them despite the manufacturer of the real unit. Lionel apparently believes that all EMD’s sound the same. The newer Legacy SD40, SD60, the new SD60M (obviously) SD40-2, SD70ACe, SD70MAC, SD80MAC, and SD90MAC all have the exact same prime mover sounds. Adding to the mess is that one who spends anytime around the real locomotives can recognize Lionel didn’t even bother to record sounds off the 1:1 engine, rather make a cheap digitized sound set on the computer that somewhat resembles that of an EMD 710 prime mover, complete with an awful horn that deaf enthusiasts praise as incrediblely realistlic (eye roll). That means said soundset should be found in anything beyond an SD60. It does not belong in the SD40’s, which have an entirely different prime mover and sound as a result. Despite this Lionel ignores this blaintly obvious error and continues to charge almost $700 per engine. Go on the internet and YouTube “SD40-2 start up”. Make sure to give it a detailed listen. Now search an MTH SD40-2, you’ll find the exact same, accurate sound. Try a Lionel for comparison, and I guarantee you’ll hear the quite disappointing difference. Keep in mind the Lionel’s inaccurate sound costs you several hundred dollars more than the MTH.
MTH has this issue as well, but it is easily fixable with DCS, and the issue not doesn’t occur on a regular basis and on a higher price range like Lionel. These 3 rail companies should look to HO for inspiration. Everything, including sound is so customizable. A consumer can buy an engine as a blank slate and add as sound and detail as they want - all for a fraction of the price as O. O does have its advantages, but when it comes to the finer details like sound, we are lacking, and something should be done about it.
ES44AC posted:Will Ebbert posted:While I would certainly prefer accurate sounds, there's more that go into it than you might think. First of all, you have to find a real SD60 to borrow and record the sounds, then you have to have someone spend hours adapting that sound to custom generated code that relates the speed of the locomotive to the sound, as well as corresponding load levels adjusted by the train brake and other features. There's a lot of work behind a computer to have recorded sounds in a model.
If it can be done in HO scale, there’s absolutely no reason it can’t be done in O.
I'm not saying it can't happen, just that there's more cost than people assume. One of the biggest issues O scale faces IMO is a lack of competition. Why innovate when there are only two or three big companies? HO has several big ones and dozens of medium, plus hundreds of small. People can't take their business elsewhere because the sounds are wrong.
ES44AC posted:Sounds are big reason most of my fleet is weighted towards MTH. It’s often argued Lionel has the better sound quality. Big whup. If I can hear the sounds the quality it’s fine. After all, they’re models, not the real thing. I can go trackside if I want to feel the ground shake. Sound accuracy is more important to me than quality. It seems like a lot of people on the forum get this mixed up. When I put an engine on the track, I expect it to sound like the real thing (again, accuracy wise, not in decibels). When it comes to MTH, I find more often than not am I satisfied. MTH’s GP38 sounds like it was recorded directly off a real unit. My SD70ACe’s, likewise. Every unit that should have sound differences correctly displays them despite the manufacturer of the real unit. Lionel apparently believes that all EMD’s sound the same. The newer Legacy SD40, SD60, the new SD60M (obviously) SD40-2, SD70ACe, SD70MAC, SD80MAC, and SD90MAC all have the exact same prime mover sounds. Adding to the mess is that one who spends anytime around the real locomotives can recognize Lionel didn’t even bother to record sounds off the 1:1 engine, rather make a cheap digitized sound set on the computer that somewhat resembles that of an EMD 710 prime mover, complete with an awful horn that deaf enthusiasts praise as incrediblely realistlic (eye roll). That means said soundset should be found in anything beyond an SD60. It does not belong in the SD40’s, which have an entirely different prime mover and sound as a result. Despite this Lionel ignores this blaintly obvious error and continues to charge almost $700 per engine. Go on the internet and YouTube “SD40-2 start up”. Make sure to give it a detailed listen. Now search an MTH SD40-2, you’ll find the exact same, accurate sound. Try a Lionel for comparison, and I guarantee you’ll hear the quite disappointing difference. Keep in mind the Lionel’s inaccurate sound costs you several hundred dollars more than the MTH.
MTH has this issue as well, but it is easily fixable with DCS, and the issue not doesn’t occur on a regular basis and on a higher price range like Lionel. These 3 rail companies should look to HO for inspiration. Everything, including sound is so customizable. A consumer can buy an engine as a blank slate and add as sound and detail as they want - all for a fraction of the price as O. O does have its advantages, but when it comes to the finer details like sound, we are lacking, and something should be done about it.
Or, switch to 2-rail O scale and buy Atlas engines with their ESU Loksound system . 
It's all good, though. I spent many years running 3-rail and thoroughly enjoyed Lionel's products, and still do at Christmas time.
"Lionel’s inaccurate sound costs you several hundred dollars more than the MTH. "
I don't know if your complaint about Lionel's sounds generally being less prototypically accurate than MTH's has merit. I also don't care, but that's a separate issue. Lionel makes toy trains, not scale models. They run on three rails (!) and have totally out of scale features such as the couplers. Oh by the way, this is true of MTH as well. Those who like three rail trains don't much mind either feature, for a variety of reasons. As suggested above, it would seem to me you would be better served by 2 rail O gauge where prototypical features are the priority. Three rail is clearly toy, no matter how exquisite the detail. Probably always will be.
Despite your claims about Lionel's failures, for whatever reason, Lionel sets outsell MTH by about 1,000 to 1 (making this up--it's probably not quite so extreme). Lionel overall, is a small company, but does about 2-4 times the annual revenue as MTH, I'd give a wild guess. They must be doing something right, even if it doesn't please the most ardent rivet counters amongst the community. Prototypical sounds are not the most important thing to most three railers, particularly those running multiple locomotives, since the result is cacophony.
Mr. Muffin, an MTH-centric dealer, recently had four kids win sets as part of a Christmas Santa coloring competition. All four kids picked Lionel sets. Go figure. Despite being surrounded by purple boxes .
I do know for certain that your statement that Lionel costs several hundred dollars more than MTH for diesel locomotives is nonsense. Mr. Muffin sells a lot of Lionel and even more MTH, but they may favor the latter, from what I can see. Great dealer by the way. Their price, for example, for the Lionel SD70ACE is $530 and for the MTH version $440. Lionel is more expensive, but by $90, not several hundreds of dollars. From a personal standpoint, I'm happy to pay $90 more to have Legacy/Bluetooth rather than PS3/DCC. In my experience the Lionel system is superior in reliability, ease of use and sound quality (Legacy vs. DCS). Your mileage may vary, but let's try to get the facts right .
Steven Michael posted:Once again. If I'm gonna pay $600+ for a diesel engine, I really wouldn't think accurate sound files are too much to ask for, especially when I can get better results in HO for literally only 1/3rd the price. I would also recommend using the word "toy" rather conservatively, considering how much work is put into these models aesthetically. I don't mean to pick a fight here, but as mentioned before for the price of these things I expect results.
I'm with you Steven. The Lionel diesels that I have purchased recently are typically $100-$200 more expensive that their MTH Premier counterparts, and I think we ought to expect more. I am frustrated that both MTH and Lionel both seem to arbitrarily pick and choose which details, the level of detail, sounds, options, etc. to include in a given model run, and which to exclude.
I picked up my Lionel SD60M yesterday, and it's a pretty decent model. There are some paint color issues with the added-on detail parts and screens, but that's not a deal-breaker, and some light weathering should cover that. I'm not sure what the horn sound is, it doesn't sound quite like an RS3L to me, but it's not bad and has the character of a horn which has been fouled and in the weather. The prime mover sounds are nice, but I honestly do not know the differences between 645 and 710 sounds, so I can't comment on accuracy. The Lionel truck placement is much better than the MTH model, but for some reason, Lionel didn't put class lights - a unique Conrail feature- on the CR version.
Don't get me wrong, all-in-all I like this model, but a little more consistent attention to detail would have really enhanced it.
I was finally able to put in some run time today on my new Lionel Legacy BN SD60M #1991 Freedom engine while our club was set up at a small local train show.. After the initial lube/grease job, I operated the engine pulling 11 cars for 6 hours continuously. For me, this engine is a WINNER. Straight out of the box, there were no cosmetic issues, no broken parts, and it runs and sounds great. There were nothing but positive comments/reactions to the engines looks/sound all day. Still don't like the switch placements, but I can live with it, considering everything else that I like about this engine. GOOD JOB LIONEL
Nick
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