Lionel Signature Catalog 2020 Online now! Whadaya like?

Train Nut posted:

Grampstrains posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

NS1975 posted:

I just received my hard copy of the catalog in the mail...

You had mail delivered today? (I assume you don't live in the USA since Martin Luther King Day is a holiday for US postal carriers.)

I gt mail today also.  It all depends on where you buy.

I don't know what difference it makes where you buy, but if you got mail today you either don't live in the US or it was Saturday's mail.   No mail was delivered in the US today due to a postal holiday!

We got mail today as well. In select Markets Amazon has subsidized the cost of delivery to keep the delivery of their packages on-time. My postal carrier chooses to work Sundays and Holidays because the pay is good. Mostly it’s Amazon packages, but if the mail is sorted, he brings it along. Again, only in select markets.

I'll be putting in for the Santa Fe Berkshire # 4101. Do I need it? No...Do I want it...yes.

John

The Southern E-8 caught my attention:

Has to be the Vision Line GS series, specifically the GS-1s.

To me, this is a great catalog on Lionel's part.  It's going to cost me several large notes.

The GS series, SP black TrainMaster, Area 51, Star Trek, new Halloween, the new Preamble Express, the "Friendship Trains", and a dozen other items will give my credit card a work-out.

Good stuff, Lionel.

Pingman posted:

The Southern E-8 caught my attention:

At one time did the SOU connect a steam whistle to a steam generator of an E unit? That would be intetesting to model.  And it a picture about it in TRAINS.

breezinup posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

peter allen 072518 posted:

Questions:

Can some one point me to a history of Lionel and FM train master? From my own research it seemed like a bit of a dud in real life, another example of tech to ahead of it's time. I think its cool that it has become a bit of a Lionel, pillar ( much too strong of a word but I cant think of a better one here.)  I have my great uncles FM in Virginia paint from I am guessing the 1950's. But why is this such a famous Lionel model, I would love to know.  

 

The Train Master was far from a dud.  They served successfully on the railroads that ordered them, particularly the Virginian, which was 99.99% FM (The VGN had 1 GE 44 tonner...)  The Illinois Central was impressed and planned on ordering 75 of them, but instability of Fairbanks Morse by way of a stockholder proxy fight discouraged the IC's ordering.

I think Lionel just saw the Train Master as a big, impressive diesel they could sell.

Rusty

Lionel said this in one of their catalogs:

"In 1953, Fairbanks-Morse began building its massive Train Master diesel locomotives to become powerful workhorses with universal use. The new units were promoted as providing 50 to 60 percent more power, 50 to 90 percent more continuous tractive effort, and 50 percent more weight on their wheels in a single unit as compared to any 1,500 to 1,600 horsepower, four-axle diesel locomotive in service at the time." 

They go on to talk about railroads that ordered them, and how on some railroads they were used for both freight and passenger service. It appears that these large, imposing engines were a fairly big deal when they appeared, and it's not hard to understand why Lionel decided to make them.

I seem to recall that the weak part was the engine. FM had made engines for submarines during the war, and they had some unique characteristics, having been purpose-made for conditions in submarines, and the transition to use in railroad locomotives created some issues.

While I know some people question the source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_H-24-66 shows only 107 units build. The entry also references various mechanical issues.  Perhaps Dud is a strong word to use.  But for a train that was somewhat obscure I feel like the Lionel model had made this engine much more popular than it was in real life.  I think the answer of, IT was big and different may be as good as I am going to get but I think I can live with that. Thank you much!

And I was mistake there is a single B&O* entry, a milk car. * Again not counting Chessie system. 

"Whadaya like?"

Being a fan of horses, I really appreciate the E8 Frisco AA set, especially unit 2006. She graces the name "Traveller," Lee's famous Civil War mount.

Of course, the Area 51 lighted track set, mechanical reefer and radioactive flat have my attention as well.

I will wait for a dealer to break up a "Star Trek" set, only interested in the diesel.

The Frisco E units could pull previous TEXAS SPECIAL cars.

jhz563 posted:

 

While the pictures are at different angles,  the front end is very different.   Imho,  the catalog image doesn't look like a Reading t1.  The driver are wrong,  and those high number boards are really wrong. 

Yes the driving wheels aren't accurate.  They are Boxpok drivers, but a different pattern than what was used on the T1's.  They might also be a tad larger than the prototype.  This was discussed back when Lionel tooled this loco in 2016.  We believe the drivers were re-used from the Lionel Milwaukee S-3.  Kind of like putting Buick wheel covers on an Oldsmobile.  Not horrible, but a little off-putting and unexpected. 

The flying number boards correspond to how the T1 was outfitted as the Chessie Steam Special.  It's an Advisory Mechanical Committee (AMC) styling feature also seen on NKP, PM, and C&O Berkshires.  As I posted earlier, if it's true that Conrail intended to use the 2101 for an excursion program, that might have been AFTER the Chessie was done with it.  If the roundhouse fire hadn't happened, 2101 might have been repainted into the Conrail scheme circa 1981, and looked very much like this!

I doubt that I'll buy it, but the Conrail T1 was pretty much my favorite piece in the whole catalog!

Conrail went as far as having artist mockups made for the T-1, tender, and Aux tender.  They show the number boards as seen in the catalog.  

Jon  

So - what are everyone's thoughts on the Lionmaster Allegheny? Not much background in the catalogue - is this a re-run of the K line version? If yes will it fit size wise with the other Lionmaster offerings which all seem to be built to the same scale?   Thanks

The Frisco E8's will be the first of my orders. Been requesting these for years. Great Paint scheme. GS1 #708 will be next as it is hard to get T&NO engines. Just wish they had cheated a little and did the T&NO 700-704 with the 160-C4 tender. I like that tender best and with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the tender it would have pulled the Sunset and Argonaut east of El Paso from 1930 to 1947, plus many freights during WWII. May have the buy #4470 or 71 and have it lettered and numbered. Hate to do that to such a expensive engine but probably the closest I will ever come for this engine. I like the GS4 4449 "SPL" and no white walls as those were dropped pretty quick. Have a picture of 4449 in 1941 just like Lionels. I also like the GS5 4459 but the white walls kill it. I personally think that is an error as I have never seen a GS with just Southern Pacific on the tender with white walls. Except in later excursion service. I will get the SP Train masters in black widow as they did pull freight around El Paso for a time before they got sent to SF for cummuter service.

peter allen 072518 posted:

While I know some people question the source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_H-24-66 shows only 107 units build. The entry also references various mechanical issues.  Perhaps Dud is a strong word to use.  But for a train that was somewhat obscure I feel like the Lionel model had made this engine much more popular than it was in real life.  I think the answer of, IT was big and different may be as good as I am going to get but I think I can live with that. Thank you much!

And I was mistake there is a single B&O* entry, a milk car. * Again not counting Chessie system. 

 

Well, the Train Master was really was no less obscure than Lionel's non-scale proportioned E33 Rectifier (12 units,) only purchased by the Virginian, or the EP5 (10 units,) only purchased by the New Haven.  Had Lionel done an SD7 or 9 instead, most folks back then wouldn't see it as much different than Lionel's GP9.

The railfan community back then wasn't as large or sophisticated as it is today and was still generally more interested in steam than diesel or electrics.  I'd wager most folks got their first exposure to the TM, E33 and EP5 locomotives through the Lionel catalogs. 

I know I did.

Rusty

If your a SOUTHERN PACIFIC FAN you will need to make a loan.

GG1GUYY

Interested to see what private runs will be offered by the dealers and clubs this time around. There were a ton for last year's catalog.

Pat 

irish rifle posted:

Interested to see what private runs will be offered by the dealers and clubs this time around. There were a ton for last year's catalog.

Pat 

Hmmm.  If only I knew a guy that does this for a club.  

If you know the right website, there's 2 loco's already posted.  Once we send an eblast to our members, I'll share here … unless someone beats me to it.

Stu

https://www.metca.org/store.html

I might have bought the "Fake News" stand had it been half that price.

NOT LionelLLC posted:

irish rifle posted:

Interested to see what private runs will be offered by the dealers and clubs this time around. There were a ton for last year's catalog.

Pat 

Hmmm.  If only I knew a guy that does this for a club.  

If you know the right website, there's 2 loco's already posted.  Once we send an eblast to our members, I'll share here … unless someone beats me to it.

Stu

https://www.metca.org/store.html

 

The METCA website has been updated, removed previous comment regarding spelling.  GregM 1/30/2020.

Still no Tuscan Red PRR F3s although I do think the Wabash F3s are very nice.

mike w posted:

So - what are everyone's thoughts on the Lionmaster Allegheny? Not much background in the catalogue - is this a re-run of the K line version? If yes will it fit size wise with the other Lionmaster offerings which all seem to be built to the same scale?   Thanks

I would say yes that the Alleghenys and Blue Ridge are from old K-line tooling because when have you ever seen manufacture make new tooling and not bump up the price than other old tooling products. Now my thoughts about it are very excited about this first-time release. I think it's cool that Lionel is bringing back Lionmaster series because right when Lionel started to put legacy in them they quit the series altogether. The CPO of my railroad my not think this is cool, in the sense of price, but I think it's cool overall. Scale wise I would figure that these engines would be no different compared to other former or new Lionmaster engines.

Does anyone buy the Vision Line items for the new effects/features that only models in the Vision Line have?

The reciprocating cylinder steam effect is new. The force coupler was advertised at least once before - although I don't remember any talk about it on the forum or magazine reviews, so if its really neat that'd be a selling point for the GS models. Vision Line also gives dual sound systems. The kinematic drawbar is not new, yet Lionel only seems to use it very sparingly.

At some point we'll have to discuss all the new features in a separate topic.

Blue Streak posted:

 GS1 #708 will be next as it is hard to get T&NO engines. Just wish they had cheated a little and did the T&NO 700-704 with the 160-C4 tender. I like that tender best and with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the tender it would have pulled the Sunset and Argonaut east of El Paso from 1930 to 1947, plus many freights during WWII. May have the buy #4470 or 71 and have it lettered and numbered. Hate to do that to such a expensive engine but probably the closest I will ever come for this engine.

Not doing the GS-1 with the 160-C tender and small "Southern Pacific Lines" was a big miss. Especially since all the other classes are offered in both early and late lettering. But even had they done it that way I would still have passed because they used the Lima chassis instead of the proper Baldwin chassis or at least something that was close. (hint: crossheads) For those not familiar with these engines this 50 year model of mine is correct. There are photos of the GS-1 on the net but we aren't allowed to post those.

Proposed Lionel model on the GS-4 chassis.

Too bad as the GS-1 is on my list of 5 best looking Northerns.

Pete

peter allen 072518 posted:

Questions:

 

2. Can some one point me to a history of Lionel and FM train master? From my own research it seemed like a bit of a dud in real life, another example of tech to ahead of it's time. I think its cool that it has become a bit of a Lionel, pillar ( much too strong of a word but I cant think of a better one here.)  I have my great uncles FM in Virginia paint from I am guessing the 1950's. But why is this such a famous Lionel model, I would love to know.  

 

Peter,
Try to find a copy of "TRAIN MASTER - The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built"

I find it interesting that Lionel is doing demonstrators TM-3 & TM-4. 

Norton posted:

Blue Streak posted:

 GS1 #708 will be next as it is hard to get T&NO engines. Just wish they had cheated a little and did the T&NO 700-704 with the 160-C4 tender. I like that tender best and with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the tender it would have pulled the Sunset and Argonaut east of El Paso from 1930 to 1947, plus many freights during WWII. May have the buy #4470 or 71 and have it lettered and numbered. Hate to do that to such a expensive engine but probably the closest I will ever come for this engine.

Not doing the GS-1 with the 160-C tender and small "Southern Pacific Lines" was a big miss. Especially since all the other classes are offered in both early and late lettering. But even had they done it that way I would still have passed because they used the Lima chassis instead of the proper Baldwin chassis or at least something that was close. (hint: crossheads) For those not familiar with these engines this 50 year model of mine is correct. There are photos of the GS-1 on the net but we aren't allowed to post those.

Pete

Thanks for pointing that out Pete, it shouldn't be a "Laird" style cross head,, but should be a Alligator type on the GS-1.

That there will be the deciding factor for not ordering a GS-1 loco. If I'm going to be spending $2k on a Brass-Hybrid locomotive such as that simple detail should be correct. Just saying.

Maybe Lionel could make this small correction or statement that it will be corrected before the preorder deadline

@Dave Olson

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They also could have offered the GS-1 as a as delivered model with the Green Boiler...

Bruk posted:

Norton posted:

Blue Streak posted:

 GS1 #708 will be next as it is hard to get T&NO engines. Just wish they had cheated a little and did the T&NO 700-704 with the 160-C4 tender. I like that tender best and with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the tender it would have pulled the Sunset and Argonaut east of El Paso from 1930 to 1947, plus many freights during WWII. May have the buy #4470 or 71 and have it lettered and numbered. Hate to do that to such a expensive engine but probably the closest I will ever come for this engine.

Not doing the GS-1 with the 160-C tender and small "Southern Pacific Lines" was a big miss. Especially since all the other classes are offered in both early and late lettering. But even had they done it that way I would still have passed because they used the Lima chassis instead of the proper Baldwin chassis or at least something that was close. (hint: crossheads) For those not familiar with these engines this 50 year model of mine is correct. There are photos of the GS-1 on the net but we aren't allowed to post those.

Pete

Thanks for pointing that out Pete, it shouldn't be a "Laird" style cross head,, but should be a Alligator type on the GS-1.

That there will be the deciding factor for not ordering a GS-1 loco. If I'm going to be spending $2k on a Brass-Hybrid locomotive such as that simple detail should be correct. Just saying.

Maybe Lionel could make this small correction or statement that it will be corrected before the preorder deadline

@Dave Olson

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They also could have offered the GS-1 as a as delivered model with the Green Boiler...

The road numbers we chose were rebuilt with the later crosshead design. There are photos of each readily available, I just can't post them here due to forum rules.

Ryan gave more info on this on the Notch 6 podcast he did with Derek. I suggest you listen to that discussion as it clears up decisions made.

We put a ton of work into the GS design over the past year and a half. 

Dave Olson posted:

Bruk posted:

Norton posted:

Blue Streak posted:

 GS1 #708 will be next as it is hard to get T&NO engines. Just wish they had cheated a little and did the T&NO 700-704 with the 160-C4 tender. I like that tender best and with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the tender it would have pulled the Sunset and Argonaut east of El Paso from 1930 to 1947, plus many freights during WWII. May have the buy #4470 or 71 and have it lettered and numbered. Hate to do that to such a expensive engine but probably the closest I will ever come for this engine.

Not doing the GS-1 with the 160-C tender and small "Southern Pacific Lines" was a big miss. Especially since all the other classes are offered in both early and late lettering. But even had they done it that way I would still have passed because they used the Lima chassis instead of the proper Baldwin chassis or at least something that was close. (hint: crossheads) For those not familiar with these engines this 50 year model of mine is correct. There are photos of the GS-1 on the net but we aren't allowed to post those.

Pete

Thanks for pointing that out Pete, it shouldn't be a "Laird" style cross head,, but should be a Alligator type on the GS-1.

That there will be the deciding factor for not ordering a GS-1 loco. If I'm going to be spending $2k on a Brass-Hybrid locomotive such as that simple detail should be correct. Just saying.

Maybe Lionel could make this small correction or statement that it will be corrected before the preorder deadline

@Dave Olson

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They also could have offered the GS-1 as a as delivered model with the Green Boiler...

The road numbers we chose were rebuilt with the later crosshead design. There are photos of each readily available, I just can't post them here due to forum rules.

Ryan gave more info on this on the Notch 6 podcast he did with Derek. I suggest you listen to that discussion as it clears up decisions made.

We put a ton of work into the GS design over the past year and a half. 

Thanks for clarifying that Dave. After looking deeper into google images I found a GS-1 with the Laird style. It did not appear right away during a brief search.

You guys at Lionel do great work. I understand the difficulty's of manufacturing and dealing with the consumer.  A lot of us are used to the “old Lionel” that built “toy trains” and aren’t used to the items being accurate to the prototypes. 

I’m interested in how you guys are managing to operate the reciprocating cylinder steam effect and I hope you guys can give us a demo on how it functions like you did with the VL Niagara. That was insight full. 

One thing I think that they should offer(at least for the Domed passenger cars) is without the camera. I know that cabooses are a dime a dozen with or without, but the dome cars are only with. Maybe Volume 2 @Dave Olson as a suggestion?

TrainMan1225 posted:

I like all of the Vision GS class engines, especially the GS-1 and GS-4 no. 4439. I also like the Blue Mountain & Reading T1. However, I can't afford any of them.

The B6sb was a little interesting since I model the Pennsy, but I would only use the engine in my engine maintenance facility, which first of all isn't built yet and second of all is shaping up to be quite small. Additionally, I know for a fact that it will come in with a banshee whistle, and I already have the Legacy H10 which has the same whistle.

Nick,

     I have both a H10 and a B6 from the previous runs and I can assure you the B6 whistle is unique in fact it will loosen your fillings. The B6 IMHO is the best Legacy engine I own great sound, smoke, and can run all day at speed step 1. Plus it is priced right.

JohnB

Big Jim posted:

 

I find it interesting that Lionel is doing demonstrators TM-3 & TM-4. 

Since they did TM-1 and TM-2 already I like it better than constantly re-running the same engine numbers. Hopefully they will retire the FM Demonstrator paint scheme after this run of engines.

IIRC this Lionel tool has the high end walkways so it worked well when they made the Wabash model of it.

Rusty Traque posted:

peter allen 072518 posted:

While I know some people question the source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_H-24-66 shows only 107 units build. The entry also references various mechanical issues.  Perhaps Dud is a strong word to use.  But for a train that was somewhat obscure I feel like the Lionel model had made this engine much more popular than it was in real life.  I think the answer of, IT was big and different may be as good as I am going to get but I think I can live with that. Thank you much!

 

Well, the Train Master was really was no less obscure than Lionel's non-scale proportioned E33 Rectifier (12 units,) only purchased by the Virginian, or the EP5 (10 units,) only purchased by the New Haven.  Had Lionel done an SD7 or 9 instead, most folks back then wouldn't see it as much different than Lionel's GP9.

The railfan community back then wasn't as large or sophisticated as it is today and was still generally more interested in steam than diesel or electrics.  I'd wager most folks got their first exposure to the TM, E33 and EP5 locomotives through the Lionel catalogs. 

I'll venture a guess that Lionel chose the F-M TrainMaster because (1) it was pretty much the most powerful single-unit road switcher available to the railroads in 1954; (2) It was long, so it made an impressive show, and could command a premium price; (3) most importantly, unlike geeps, Alco RS-3, etc., the long hood was wide enough to acommodate a second Pullmor motor!  Dual motors was a feature folks had come to associate with Lionel's premium diesels.  It wasn't until the can motor era that we got dual-motored Rectifiers and GP9s.

The EP-5 made its real-life debut a year later, in 1955.  It was also impressively long, although it lacked the heft of the FM's die-cast fuel tank.  Lionel imaginatively lettered it for Great Northern and the Milwaukee Road, broadening its appeal.  Why the EP-5 never got a second motor, I don't know.  The shell is certainly wide enough; it would seem like a no-brainer to use motors, power trucks, and pilots from the 2383.

Someday I'll probably add an FM to my collection.  I happen to like the newer tooling with the blind middle axle and added detail.  Even on sharp curves, I think it looks better than the postwar design, with its inside axle hanging out in the breeze.  My $.02.

GG1GUYY posted:

If your a SOUTHERN PACIFIC FAN you will need to make a loan.

GG1GUYY

More like mortgage your home. 

Big Jim posted:

peter allen 072518 posted:

Questions:

 

2. Can some one point me to a history of Lionel and FM train master? From my own research it seemed like a bit of a dud in real life, another example of tech to ahead of it's time. I think its cool that it has become a bit of a Lionel, pillar ( much too strong of a word but I cant think of a better one here.)  I have my great uncles FM in Virginia paint from I am guessing the 1950's. But why is this such a famous Lionel model, I would love to know.  

 

Peter,
Try to find a copy of "TRAIN MASTER - The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built"

I find it interesting that Lionel is doing demonstrators TM-3 & TM-4. 

They made this before in their Century Club II series for special order. MTH made this scheme, too.

Well I'd like a GS1 Brass Hybrid but at $2k it's waaay out of what I can spend. I'll make do with my MTH Premier SP GS4 and GS6. 

I'll probably order 2 of the 50' flat cars with trailers, one Santa Fe and one DT&I/Ford. I already pre-ordered a MTH Railking Scale Santa Fe FM H10-44 from their 2020 V.1 catalog, so that's enough stuff for the year. 

Yes Dave is correct about the GS1's. The numbers they used are the rebuilt ones with the later Cross heads and such. I just wished they would do a "what if" version of the earlier T&NO road numbers 700-703 with the 160- C4 tender and "Southern pacific Lines". This would be more plausible than some of the other paint schemes I have seen. 

I noted that the 0-6-0T's are advertised with LionChief2.0Plus - which has desirable features including speed control, however the 0-6-0T included with the PE Elf train is listed as LionChief, yet the set commands a premium price. Do I understand this right? Why not include the PE 0-6-0T with Lionchief2.0Plus? I won't consider it unless the engine has speed control.

Ted S posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

peter allen 072518 posted:

While I know some people question the source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_H-24-66 shows only 107 units build. The entry also references various mechanical issues.  Perhaps Dud is a strong word to use.  But for a train that was somewhat obscure I feel like the Lionel model had made this engine much more popular than it was in real life.  I think the answer of, IT was big and different may be as good as I am going to get but I think I can live with that. Thank you much!

 

Well, the Train Master was really was no less obscure than Lionel's non-scale proportioned E33 Rectifier (12 units,) only purchased by the Virginian, or the EP5 (10 units,) only purchased by the New Haven.  Had Lionel done an SD7 or 9 instead, most folks back then wouldn't see it as much different than Lionel's GP9.

The railfan community back then wasn't as large or sophisticated as it is today and was still generally more interested in steam than diesel or electrics.  I'd wager most folks got their first exposure to the TM, E33 and EP5 locomotives through the Lionel catalogs. 

I'll venture a guess that Lionel chose the F-M TrainMaster because (1) it was pretty much the most powerful single-unit road switcher available to the railroads in 1954; (2) It was long, so it made an impressive show, and could command a premium price; (3) most importantly, unlike geeps, Alco RS-3, etc., the long hood was wide enough to acommodate a second Pullmor motor!  Dual motors was something folks had come to associate with Lionel's premium diesels.  It wasn't until the can motor era that we got dual-motored Rectifiers and GP9s.

The EP-5 made its real-life debut a year later in 1955.  It was also impressively long, although it lacked the heft of the FM's die-cast fuel tank.  Lionel imaginatively lettered it for Great Northern and the Milwaukee Road, broadening its appeal.  Why the EP-5 never got a second motor, I don't know.  The shell is certainly wide enough; it seems like a no-brainer to use motors, power trucks, and pilots from the 2383.

Someday I'll probably add an FM to my collection.  I happen to like the newer tooling with the blind middle axle and added detail.  Even on sharp curves, I think it looks better than the postwar design, with its inside axle hanging out in the breeze.  My $.02.

I think it is interesting that it is noted in the details "Mars light with short hood" but there is nothing said on the models themselves. Anyone know which is which(not that I'm ordering one), just curious.

I probably won't buy anything. Lot's of stuff I would like but the prices are through the roof. Looks to me a lot of people are being driven out of the hobby.

jhz563 posted:

I can't understand why Lionchief still is offered when LC+ and now lc2.0 is some much better.  I like the area 51 train, but I just don't want another lc engine, even with the light up track.

 

I agree TOTALLY!   I think Lionel is losing many sales to those of us with conventional layouts by not putting LC+ in it's basic sets & single-sale locos, or at LEAST making the LC locos upgradeable to LC+.   I would have likely gotten the Scooby-Doo, Hot Wheels or current Area 51 sets if this were true.

I like the GS1 and will order, anyone thinking about the 125th annerversey set?  Over 3K for the whole set

I'm excited about the quillable moo sound cattle car, seems like that would be a lot of fun. I'll also be getting 1-2 50' flat cars with trailers, some very cool paint schemes for this run. Finally, I am not a Pennsy person, but the FM set seems like a deal when looking at the pricing of individual items and overall set price.