Lionel Stuck in the 50's?

What a coincidence. Lionel has a set of modern Ethanol tank cars in their Vision line with freight sounds.

http://www.lionel.com/VisionLi...stock/modern30gallon

Hardly an operating car IMO, but definitely a step in the right direction.

Give it time. They are only now beginning to realize the potential of technology in regards to rolling stock. Unfortunately the price reflects that.

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So put on you thinking caps and lets give Lionel an opportunity to surprise US.

Did you just get into trains? Lionel has released many new exciting operating accessories and cars in the past years.

Vision line LCD billboard car
Vision line cattle/cowboy/squeaking wheel car
Military box car with sounds
Hot box car
caboose with operating brakeman/lantern

Nuclear reactor
coal tipple
lift bridge
burning switch tower
operating smoke fluid building

And of the re-make of older accessories which perform much better. Just a few examples and I am sure more neat things to come. Others can add.

TEX
Steve

What about the TMCC Crane and Boom cars that have been available for a few years now? IMO they were "vision line" status worthy well before antything else.
I have one of the Lionel haunted houses, while not a terribly complex accessory has fun motion,lights and sounds, as well as a fairly decent creepy appearance.

Fred, Amen to that. An extra 60 bucks for sound... OK. I suppose it is remote selectable, or is it? From that perspective, I guess its an operating car.

I posted to this board several years ago about adding realistic sound to every car, which I am sure is not a new idea in and of itself. I realized this had real potential after spending an hour or along side the BNSF railine in Creston, IA, and listening to the variety of cars passing by. Especially the combination of rain creaking (under different weights) and the actual sound from the cars themselves, like the rattle and clatter of aluminum automobile transports.

My suggestion was a bit more simple and designed from a "Point of View" or Personal Observer Perspective. That is from the perspective of standing along side a crossing or the like. My suggestion was a simple barcode reader track section that would read a barcode label sticker on the bottom of a car. As it passed over this, it would have its code read and a central processing unit would mix the sounds of cars as they passed by a fixed point, complete with fade in and fade out. The actual speakers could be enclosed in any number of RR buildings and other landscape pieces or the track itself! (Another suggestion is noise cancelling technology built into Fastrack, but lets not restart THAT discussion in this thread.)

This solution is a lot cheaper to design and deploy and it has the added flexibility to change labels easily. The sound library could be updated and downloaded from the internet... Nothing required in the cars themselves, and it has the added benefit of allowing you to "add sound" to match ALL of your existing rolling stock. It gives the illusion of trains passing into and out of your field of hearing.

Per the barcodes.. I was reminded of my own idea when I bought a gift card from Menards this Christmas to give to a friend and the "card" was actually a collectable scale race car with a barcode on its underside...

Perhaps someone needs to make a little electronic retrofit kit for certain train cars that works off of track power. It sounds like a neat little project that I'm sure could be done with open source code. It would be neat to have simple wheel squeal on each car but I'd do it so the volume is very low. One issue I have with the way people use sound is that they have it turned up. I keep the sound on my engines (when I run them with sound) nearly all the way down but definitely at the low end of the volume knob. When it gets too loud the lousy speakers used really start to make themselves known. It drives me crazy when you go to a layout and the only thing you hear is the sound of loud engines running at the same time echoing off the walls. With train cars and ambient sounds, the key to making it sound real is to not realize it is there. It should add a sense of feeling to things but shouldn't dominate or draw your attention.

Tex,

UH... the idea of the Lionel Nuclear Reactor being "modern day" is laughable! As is the AEC transport cars! I got into trains when the AEC stuff was NEW. All I am saying is the technology used to make these accessories is still based on 50's engineering. Even the livestock cars still LOOK and operate with the same old technology and tooling. I am not opposed to re-release of the classics, just want to see and hear about some real innovation.

I am sure someone has brought up an iPad based control system. I am looking for flexible and modular solutions, not proprietary ones like Legacy. These will allow the hobbyists to improvise, and innovate much like the designers of Apple apps. That has the potential of reviving our hobby. But for all of its marketing strength, wich is debatable, Lionel has yet to demonstrate real Vision (no pun intended), in my mind. There is a whole community out there hacking and reprogramming iRobot roombas just for fun... Why not our toys?

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UH... the idea of the Lionel Nuclear Reactor being "modern day" is laughable! As is the AEC transport cars! I got into trains when the AEC stuff was NEW. All I am saying is the technology used to make these accessories is still based on 50's engineering. Even the livestock cars still LOOK and operate with the same old technology and tooling. I am not opposed to re-release of the classics, just want to see and hear about some real innovation.

So you are fairly new to the hobby so you want newer innovation? What I listed above is new technology and there are a lot more. Be patient and better things will come. How many times have you sent a nice email or letter to Lionel asking for what you stated. I don't believe Lionel has a crystal ball and you don't need to wait for forum input.

I have been collecting and operating Lionel trains since 1954. Believe me, I feel lucky with the new items Lionel is releasing.

TEX
Steve

Tex,

When I said I had been in the hobby since AEC was new, I meant the postwar version... That puts it about 1958-59.

You know, back when they thought that the atomic waste could be moved on rails and stored in caverns! The AEC is no more, and now we have the NRC. But again, this is all fantasy land for Lionel... not that there's anything wrong with that. I lean toward considering my trains to be Toys and not models. Doesn't mean that toys can't reflect the times though. That's my point.

OK, here's another operating car I'd like to see: Based on a real life experience of my grandfather who was a mail clerk on the Soo Line in Wisconsin. One foggy night the number two train on which he was working, heading southbound missed its turnoff to the siding, required to allow number nine, a Northbound, to continue unimpeded. Rather than backup, the engineer on number two decided to proceed past the other end of the siding and then backup into the siding.

Around the bend came number nine through the fog, and while the engineer and some of the crew on number two were aware of the danger, my grand-dad was not and was busy sorting mail. When the others heard the whistle of number nine, they knew they were in imminent danger and all but my grand-dad jumped off! They hollered to him, but it was too late.

The engine of number nine drove the tender of number two halfway through the mailcar pinning my grand-dad to the rear wall. He survived (or I would not have be here, as my Dad was not yet born...) but with severe injuries.

So what was my idea?

How about an ejector mechanism for the loco and mail car that would have all the crew bailing out whenever a train appeared to be heading for a head on with another! LOL!

hello guys and gals.......
MTH railking operating cars, I have 7 different ones and they all work well much to my surprise.
the woman who loves toy trains
Tiffany

Per the burning switch tower, I always figured it should have guys bailing out too!

I have a nice accessory the lionel rotary coal dumper. I love it and its very realistic. How about the back shop with the doors going up and down and the smoke stack and all the milling machines that was from some years back I thought that was very innovative maybe ahead of their time for that accessory. Maybe they will do another one with out it being tinplated. I would like to see lionel do a transfer table with legacy and all or how about a turntable and round house. Maybe lionel doesnt have a big enough market for a turntable since milhouse has such a nice one in the market already. only way to tell is to just wait and see what lionel brings to the table but I think their doing a great job already.

If Lionel really wants to foster interest in the younger generation, then they need to start sponsoring programs like this. Lego knows what it takes to make their product a vibrant learning toy for kids by participating in the FIRST Robotics community. The future is your for the asking Lionel:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...ntion-170000772.html

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Originally posted by Tommys_Trains:
If Lionel really wants to foster interest in the younger generation, then they need to start sponsoring programs like this. Lego knows what it takes to make their product a vibrant learning toy for kids by participating in the FIRST Robotics community. The future is your for the asking Lionel:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...ntion-170000772.html

Main difference is that Lego's product isn't limited to just being able to assemble trains. Legos are popular because you can build almost anything your mind imagines with them. Lionel trains are, well... Lionel trains. The engine, rolling stock, accessories are already built and frozen in final form. Sure, you can still create your own little world and change around track configurations and rearrange the trains, telephone poles and structures, but the end products themselves are permanent fixtures and a layout or even a simple loop of track on the floor takes up a lot of real estate in the average home. And the average Lego set is much easier to break down and more compact & lighter, making it easier to set up, transport, or stow away than the average toy train set.

The zenith of O gauge toy trains has come and gone a long, long time ago, and as long as prototype trains in the real world doesn't capture the imagination and fascination of the public as it used to, model and toy trains will never be re-established as one of the top hobbies and toys of choice to the mass consumers anymore, no matter how 21st-century they make their trains and operating accessories. And because Lionel and the entire model/toy train market is so small compared to the other mass-consumer products, there is no way that Lionel is going to be able to afford to sponsor major non-related attractions like the robotics learning program you referenced on a nationwide basis. They sure as heck can't afford national TV commercial slots either. The risk of over-extending themselves is just too great.

Venues like WGH and similar shows and meets around the country is really the only financially feasible way Lionel and the rest can reach out to the consumers, that plus the existing public displays put on by local clubs.

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Originally posted by Tommys_Trains:
Fred, Amen to that. An extra 60 bucks for sound... OK. I suppose it is remote selectable, or is it? From that perspective, I guess its an operating car.

I posted to this board several years ago about adding realistic sound to every car, which I am sure is not a new idea in and of itself. I realized this had real potential after spending an hour or along side the BNSF railine in Creston, IA, and listening to the variety of cars passing by. Especially the combination of rain creaking (under different weights) and the actual sound from the cars themselves, like the rattle and clatter of aluminum automobile transports.

Tommy,

I just don't see adding sound to every car to be an economical decision by the manufacturers. Just go back and reread some of the threads whenever a new catalog comes out and folks start complaining about the cost of a freight car.

Personally, sound in a freight car doesn't do anything for me, and while I might pay $60 - $70 for a well detailed freight car, there is no way that I pay extra for the sound feature.

Jim

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Personally, sound in a freight car doesn't do anything for me, and while I might pay $60 - $70 for a well detailed freight car, there is no way that I pay extra for the sound feature.

DITTO!

I think we are in violent agreement here. Anyone care to comment on my more economical Point of Perspective solution? I would think the scale modelers would appreciate the fade in fade out feature that simulate the real behavior of sound from a personal perspective. Lets through doppler shift in for good measure.

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I would like to see lionel do a transfer table with legacy and all or how about a turntable and round house.

The transfer table idea I think would be cool, although I'm not sure in scale O Gauge how much room that would take. The one prototype table I've seen (ex Cotton Belt - no longer in use) is rather large. Almost as large as the multi bay engine shop it serves. But, I'd go for it, if I could find a place on the layout. The size? I'd strictly be guessing, but it depends on how many tracks it'd serve and I think at least five tracks would be about right. If for 1st and 2nd generation diesels, 3 feet x 2 feet or something thereabouts??

I also agree new operating accessories are needed. A "pet idea" I've had for a while would be an operating grain elevator with a facility to lift or tilt a truck trailer to empty the grain (as it's really done), then a loading device for the hoppers, one after another. I would add some realistic sounds too for this operation. I'd also get permission of a major grain processor to use their logo - I'd kinda like Riceland myself.

I have never heard of this being done in O, although that doesn't mean it's not out there someplace...

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Let me be your sidetrack til your main line comes, I'll do more switching than your main line ever done...

Sorry Tommy, I was typing and didn't see what you were asking, but my operating grain elevator and transfer table could use some sounds like what I think you're asking about. I've got another idea as well that could use sounds. It involves inland river barge traffic and a diesel towboat. Details on request...

And btw, that was one of Hank Sr's best lines. I also like, "ain't no way you're gonna get out of this world alive" and "it's too late 'cuz the deal's done gone down".

Fwiw, a relative of mine I'm told was his road manager.

John,

Spoken like a true modeler. Thats a compliment by the way. Have been to your museum and it is quite impresive.

So this reveals the dichotomy of both the hobby and my own interests. While I suggest we move into the future, I also value the postwar playablility factor.

I was very disappointed that the recent TV coverage on F&F that featured a layout that was devoid of operating accessories. What a missed opportunity. As I recall, nearly all of the golden age dealer displays built by Lionel had such features. Sure there was a tunnel and multiple levels, but the lack of something as simple as a candy cane dump car was inexcusable.

So I have to say, I say no reason why Lionel cannot approach the youngest of their customers with a true toy marketing approach, and further facilitate these capabilities through moduler toy components that promote creativity. Afterall it was AC Gilbert that promoted both trains and Erector sets.

In the very article I cited, there was reference to motive power being incorportaed. Does Lionel not see the connection here?

And the whole purpose of FIRST is to foster innovation through child development, and perhaps one of these Jr engineers might really come up with a world changing invention. Why not the same in our Railroad industry?

And again, to bring in the adolescents, lets open up the source code of Legacy and make iPad apps a reality. It can be done.

Thinking about erector sets got me looking around the web. Apparently it was bought up by a French company who incorporated it into an existing construction toy called Meccano ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meccano ), but what is truly facinating is this model trail built with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ccano_locomotive.jpg

I am not a hacker myself, and am not necessarily recommending hacking, but rather, promoting an open development platform that includes the popuar application platforms of Apple and Android. I know that this is what interests the youngest generation and would foster renewed interest in the hobby. Lionel could open an app store and profit from the downloads. Sound files, loco programming apps, accessory apps, etc. Content is King. If Lionel sticks with a proprietary Legacy hardware / Software platform it will not realize its true potential IMO.

It also opens up the possibility of running virtual layouts to test out ideas, as well as remote (in the truest sense) control of layouts via the internet. Imagine what it could do for kids in the hospital to have a tablet and interact with real layouts somewhere in a club location.

What Lionel needs is a Chief Innovation Officer who understands modern technlogy, the commercial software ecosystem and market dynamics.
It is the 21st Century afterall.
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OK, here's another example of "Potential" applications and divesification of the Lionel product line. Imagine, if you will, being able to pilot a real locomotive or even ride in vintage observation car in a by-gone era passenger train, in a semi-virtual world.

With its knowledge of modern and historical railroad technology and infrastructure, Lioenl could build tablet apps with content that allow you to take a ride on the Reading, or any other line of your choosing. With partnerships with real railroads, and the use of digital capture capability, vast libraries of content could be ammassed to construct these virtual worlds.

I once proposed to Intel, the development and promotion of the "digital highway" concept in which all vehicles and the Interstate Highway system would be broadband equipped and permit the transmission and recpetion of digital data about highway and traffic conditions. How many times have you been in a traffic jam and wished you could "see" out ahead of you to know what was going on to cause the backup. Webcams built into trucks and other vehicles (voluntarily of course) could provide such info. Likewise for trains. It would permit the collection of vast amounts of real trackage visualizations.

Just recently, Broadcom stepped up to the challenge and announced just such an initiative for connecting autos to the internet. And we don't need a gov't program (like the rural broadband internet initiative) as free enterprise is doing a nice job of building out 4G.

The combination of scale modeling and real world content seems like a no brainer to me. Digitally sampled sound is just scratching the surface... Going beyond "sound boards" and fixed loops of track with virtual RR content takes it to the next level. Gamers do it now, flight simulators abound... surely there is a market for RR enthusiasts and there is no reason Lionel can't participate.

Why on Earth is there not already a Polar Express game?! Its screaming for just such an application (jumping from car to car, treking across the roof tops, hanging on for dear life through the Glaciaer Gulch) Again, content is king. Time to think outside the basketweave Box already.

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Originally posted by Tommys_Trains:Why on Earth is there not already a Polar Express game?! Its screaming for just such an application (jumping from car to car, treking across the roof tops, hanging on for dear life through the Glaciaer Gulch) Again, content is king. Time to think outside the basketweave Box already.

There already is, it's been available for years. It's been made for consoles like the Sony Playstation & X-Box, and Warner Bros. has online versions of the game to play as well.

You're starting to make it sound like expanding into being an app developer and provider is cheap and easy and that they have infinite resources to make it happen. Lionel and the others are model/toy train manufacturers/importers, not software gaming companies. I seem to recall that both have less than 50 employees that work stateside, if that helps indicate how small they actually are. And as already has been mentioned, Lionel is keeping Legacy proprietary for it's own business reasons. Ditto for MTH with their DCS system. Neither are going to be open-source for the foreseeable future. So armed with that information, the reality is any further suggestions that they do is, as they say, p***ing in the wind. To add further, some would make compelling arguments though that nowadays with the electronics used today that making them more reliable and robust would be more desireable and a higher prioroty than controlling them with a smartphone.

That all being said, there already are hints being dropped of leveraging Legacy to provide train layout detection/positioning that can open itself up to some interesting train interaction and operations. There has been an app run off an iPad that was demonstrated to control their trains, and one guy that goes by the name of Skylar on this forum has been developing his own program that allows him to operate trains from a computer that interfaces with MTH's DCS system. So there's clearly indicators out there, just got to keep in mind of the old saying that Rome wasn't built in a day.

John, I have a theory I'd like to try out and see what you think. Sixty years in 3-Rail O Gauge has taught me that the "heart" and chief prerequisite of a person's long term presence in this hobby is a serious interest in prototype railroading and not an interest in the electronic gamesmanship possibilities of the hobby no matter how sophisticated and imaginative.

Which is another way of saying, Lionel hasn't lasted 112 years for nothing.

Btw, the reason I was asking earlier about where the TMCC boards are actually made for the different brands or whether everybody gets theirs direct from Lionel is, I have noticed some interesting differences in how they operate depending on brand.

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John, I have a theory I'd like to try out and see what you think. Sixty years in 3-Rail O Gauge has taught me that the "heart" and chief prerequisite of a person's long term presence in this hobby is a serious interest in prototype railroading and not an interest in the electronic gamesmanship possibilities of the hobby no matter how sophisticated and imaginative.

I've been involved with toy trains for a long time. My interest in prototype railroading is minimal.

Really. Well, who knows. Maybe I'm all by myself on seeing toy trains as a minature representative of the "real thing". That was always the whole point for me.

If there were no longer such a thing as railroads, I sure wouldn't be inspired to stay in the hobby.

Ginsaw,

I agree, however one can be open to new experiences.

One of the things that attracted me to "O" in the first place was the heft of the locos, and of course the playbility of the accessories. No other gauge has achieved what "O" has in that regard.

That does not mean that we can't let our imaginations run wild and create a bit of sci-fi when speculating about the future of the hobby. How about Holographic images built into layouts or possibly more plausible in todays world, 3D visuals like those provided on current day HDTV sets? Do you see what I mean? Has anyone modeled the back to to the future train yet? How about a nice 3D Jaws marquee on the motion picture theater?

So maybe I'm a dreamer... But just wait and see.

In the meantime, I will continue to throw ideas out there and invite everyone to participate. So getting back to my ethanol facility... Let's compromise and let Lionel use 50's technology to build an ethanol pumping station with the good old bubblelight tube and incandescent light heater as in the OIL pumps... It will have to be colorless of course! LOL!

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