Lionel T1 Duplex Legacy Upgrade

John,

that RS6 set up using the 691-MB15-A00 should support the LCS track IR sensor from what I can tell.

I usually don’t add it to my upgrades because it will change the name in the remote to what ever engine boards I’m using for the conversion. But in this case it be appropriate.

Nice project John.

Can you install the err command in a tmcc h9?

This also has the mechanical liquid smoke unit, is there enough room in there for one of your super chuff 2 with a fan driven unit?

Thanks for sharing your information

@Bruk posted:

John,

that RS6 set up using the 691-MB15-A00 should support the LCS track IR sensor from what I can tell.

I usually don’t add it to my upgrades because it will change the name in the remote to what ever engine boards I’m using for the conversion.

Bruk, that's why I'm considering the sensor car parts.  Those you can program for any ID, which would eliminate the issue of the wrong name.   I'm using the 691-MB15-A01, the same one that is used in the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex, I figured to pattern the wiring to what's in that tender.  I happen to have that locomotive, so I have a tender to look at that works with my modified locomotive.

My remaining "to-do" is to replace my smoke regulator, the one I had in my parts bin is flaky, it works great for a few seconds and then tails off to minimal smoke.  You can watch the voltage slowly go from a measured 6V to around 4V, and the smoke almost disappears.  This is a classic failure that I've seen many times before, those smoke regulators are pretty flaky.

John, you got that thing together quick!….you weren’t kidding when you said you were ready for it!….I trust she’s running smoothly after all that surgery?…

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bruk, that's why I'm considering the sensor car parts.  Those you can program for any ID, which would eliminate the issue of the wrong name.   I'm using the 691-MB15-A01, the same one that is used in the Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex, I figured to pattern the wiring to what's in that tender.  I happen to have that locomotive, so I have a tender to look at that works with my modified locomotive.

My remaining "to-do" is to replace my smoke regulator, the one I had in my parts bin is flaky, it works great for a few seconds and then tails off to minimal smoke.  You can watch the voltage slowly go from a measured 6V to around 4V, and the smoke almost disappears.  This is a classic failure that I've seen many times before, those smoke regulators are pretty flaky.

I have a basic wiring diagram for that tender thanks to you in the past for figuring how it was wired.  This helps doing LEGACY conversions on the scale T1's I can email that to you if you'd like.

@Bruk posted:

I have a basic wiring diagram for that tender thanks to you in the past for figuring how it was wired.  This helps doing LEGACY conversions on the scale T1's I can email that to you if you'd like.

Bruk, I sure would love to have the wiring diagram! Always nice to have a picture of what you're working on.

I'm looking now at how to arrange stuff.  Funny thing, I do notice that the motherboard has an IR Track Output, but the LM T1 Duplex doesn't have any IR transmitter on the tender.  I wonder what's the possibility that it's actually programmed to output something from the RS6 board?

@Fred M posted:

Nice project John.

Can you install the err command in a tmcc h9?

This also has the mechanical liquid smoke unit, is there enough room in there for one of your super chuff 2 with a fan driven unit?

Thanks for sharing your information

You're better off considering selling it and buying a Legacy version.  It's a very tight fit, and the full upgrade is knocking on the door to the Legacy models.

@harmonyards posted:

John, you got that thing together quick!….you weren’t kidding when you said you were ready for it!….I trust she’s running smoothly after all that surgery?…

Pat

Yep, I had all the stuff assembled, just had to get it out and start working.  Feels nice to be doing something for me for a change.

Decided to hack at the tender a little, drilled and tapped a bunch of holes and mounted all the stuff in preparation for wiring.

Awesome upgrades going into that scale T1! I will second your opinion that the Lionmaster Duplex has impressive sounds. The 5511's quillable whistle is one of my favorite sounds from any O Gauge locomotive.

For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of listening to the Lionmaster Duplex, here's a video of my own Lionmaster Duplex running on my layout.

Wow, that is the one you found at the last York, right John? Oh I cannot wait to see when you have this marvel of wonders running around the rails.

John you might want to fix a tracking problem with the scale T1.  The wide flangeless drivers short out on most 072 switches.  A known problem.  Beveling them is the solution.  I think your upgrades are fantastic.  I wonder how far away Lionel is from a Vision type remake?

@Johnsgg1 posted:

John you might want to fix a tracking problem with the scale T1.  The wide flangeless drivers short out on most 072 switches.  A known problem.  Beveling them is the solution.  I think your upgrades are fantastic.  I wonder how far away Lionel is from a Vision type remake?

I sent it to Pat (Harmonyards) for the wheel bevel.  FWIW, there are a host of older 3rd Rail locomotives with the same issue.  In the case of the T1 Duplex, my biggest issue is with the Ross curved switches.

@Trainguy Ken posted:

Awesome upgrades going into that scale T1! I will second your opinion that the Lionmaster Duplex has impressive sounds. The 5511's quillable whistle is one of my favorite sounds from any O Gauge locomotive.

I wanted better sounds than the RS4, so the way to get there was the Legacy conversion.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Wow, that is the one you found at the last York, right John? Oh I cannot wait to see when you have this marvel of wonders running around the rails.

Actually, this is one that I bought on eBay, I bought the Legacy Santa Fe Northern at York.

@Bruk came through with one of his great wiring diagrams featuring the tender motherboard I'm using.  Other than a missing resistor for the backup-light, it's spot-on.  It is missing the marker lights, I believe they're powered directly from track power for the Legacy tender.

Today is wiring day, so this is a timely addition.

@Johnsgg1 posted:

John you might want to fix a tracking problem with the scale T1.  The wide flangeless drivers short out on most 072 switches.  A known problem.  Beveling them is the solution.  I think your upgrades are fantastic.  I wonder how far away Lionel is from a Vision type remake?

John sent the T1 to me and I took care of the fat blind drivers ….it was a clock bandit of a job, but it turned out nice …..I’ve done several 3rd Rails….they’re easier to do than any locomotive with captured axles,….

Pat

John - Would like to see a video of that bad boy on your layout when you have it all put together.  Keep up the good work!

@Bruk posted:

John,

that RS6 set up using the 691-MB15-A00 should support the LCS track IR sensor from what I can tell.

I usually don’t add it to my upgrades because it will change the name in the remote to what ever engine boards I’m using for the conversion. But in this case it be appropriate.

There’s a way to program the legacy base to ignore the info from a particular engine going over a track sensor per @Dave Olson. A computer needs to be connected to the base as if you are upgrading firmware using the legacy program.  I’ve never done it, and sadly forgot how Dave told me what needs to be done.

John, what LED part number did you use for the headlight?  My Lionmaster T1 has a headlight with a slight greenish cast to it that I find annoying.  I painted the lens with some Tamiya orange and that helped, but I'm still dissatisfied with the appearance.  I think the ultimate fix is a new headlight.

Please advise.

Dale

@harmonyards posted:

John sent the T1 to me and I took care of the fat blind drivers ….it was a clock bandit of a job, but it turned out nice …..I’ve done several 3rd Rails…they're easier to do than any locomotive with captured axles,….

Pat

Nice work.

Did you do a rough grind and finish with rotating the wheels and grinding at the same time?

Added build pictures to first post I didn't add at first.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/159660139355162121

@Pennsylover posted:

John, what LED part number did you use for the headlight?  My Lionmaster T1 has a headlight with a slight greenish cast to it that I find annoying.  I painted the lens with some Tamiya orange and that helped, but I'm still dissatisfied with the appearance.  I think the ultimate fix is a new headlight.

Part Number?   I buy my LED's in bulk, these were listed as "warm white diffused", and I believe I got them on eBay several years back.  They are a great color, I think they come in at about 2800K on the LED Kelvin color chart.  These happen to be 3mm flangeless LED, perfect for replacing the 3mm incandescents.

@DaveGG posted:

Nice work.

Did you do a rough grind and finish with rotating the wheels and grinding at the same time?

To be honest, I had thought about doing it that way, but if I slipped, it could’ve been disastrous…..so I carefully pulled each wheel and did it in the lathe,….I then finished it with 800 grit paper to polish the new bevels for a seamless transition….afterwards, I re-blackened the blind drivers with Caswell’s cold black oxide refinishing system….John’s T1 had splined blind drivers, so that made quartering fairly simple …..some very minor touch ups on the axle ends, made for an undetectable service …..

Pat

Wow.  Thanks for the details of your craftsmanship.

John what chef rate did you settle on?

Ron

I use four chuffs as the articulated chuffs are generated by the sound set, so you get the correct sounds.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I use four chuffs as the articulated chuffs are generated by the sound set, so you get the correct sounds.

But the T1 has four cylinders each exhausting two times per rev.  So unless both sets of "engines" are in sync (four chuffs) there is some cadence of eight chuffs.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

But the T1 has four cylinders each exhausting two times per rev.  So unless both sets of "engines" are in sync (four chuffs) there is some cadence of eight chuffs.

Ron

The sound set does the offset chuffs, as long as it’s set for 4, the sound set will give the needed chuffs for 4 cylinders,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

The sound set does the offset chuffs, as long as it’s set for 4, the sound set will give the needed chuffs for 4 cylinders,….

Pat

I have not heard that "offset" that corresponds to the by sight rod position.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

I have not heard that "offset" that corresponds to the by sight rod position.

Ron

Listen on YouTube to any of the 4 cylinder Legacy engines, and you’ll hear what we’re talking about ( and trying to explain to you )

Pat

@PRRronbh posted:

I have not heard that "offset" that corresponds to the by sight rod position.

Trust me, it's there.  The correct chuff switch setting is 4-chuffs/rev for articulated sound sets.  The whole reason they're called "articulated" is because they add that sound element!+

Here's an example, this is the Vision Line Big Boy starting out, look just past the one minute mark in the video:

This looks awesome John, can’t wait to see it completed. This doesn’t directly apply here with RS6 but I did notice when diagnosing a tether issue that with the RS-lite and the RCMC the RCMC informs the RS-lite over the serial data as to what locomotive it is. For example I had a issue with a S-3 and wanted to confirm the tender wadded g the IR data so I hooked it too a newer VL challenger just so happens it went over a sensor. The s-3 was Eng 61 so when it whet over it loaded Union Pacific Challenger #3985 into slot 61.

Yep, it would presumably load the data for whatever sound board you had, that would be in the tender.  My understanding it it just transmits the data continuously.  Since the older Legacy that transmitted to the track IR didn't have the RCMC to provide the data, it comes from the tender.  The RS6 board has an output for the track IR, just not sure exactly how it operates, I'm looking into that.

@harmonyards posted:

Listen on YouTube to any of the 4 cylinder Legacy engines, and you’ll hear what we’re talking about ( and trying to explain to you )

Pat

One year when N&W1218 a simple articulated was in town storming south about to roll over some pennies I placed on the track was up close with the shutter button down and "heard" eight distinct exhaust  releases!

Also in the MTH  system one can dial in 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. cuff rate and you will hear that distinct rate.

Ron

@PRRronbh posted:

One year when N&W1218 a simple articulated was in town storming south about to roll over some pennies I placed on the track was up close with the shutter button down and "heard" eight distinct exhaust  releases!

Also in the MTH  system one can dial in 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. cuff rate and you will hear that distinct rate.

I'm not sure what you're pushing, but if you like how MTH does it, I suggest you stick with MTH.   It seems like you're trying to beat us into submission to your point of view.

I know that programming 8-chuffs with a Lionel articulated sound board sounds like a machine gun, and the sound seems right to me with the actual chuff switch set to 4-chuffs.  Since it's my Railroad, it's my rules and I'll use what sounds right to me and what virtually all the newer Lionel models use, 4-chuffs.

@PRRronbh posted:

One year when N&W1218 a simple articulated was in town storming south about to roll over some pennies I placed on the track was up close with the shutter button down and "heard" eight distinct exhaust  releases!

Also in the MTH  system one can dial in 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. cuff rate and you will hear that distinct rate.

Ron

4 cylinders USUALLY means 8 chuffs,……again, when John sets his system to 4 chuffs, the Legacy sound system will deliver 8 chuffs, ……..now does it make sense?..

Pat

@zhubl posted:

This looks awesome John, can’t wait to see it completed. This doesn’t directly apply here with RS6 but I did notice when diagnosing a tether issue that with the RS-lite and the RCMC the RCMC informs the RS-lite over the serial data as to what locomotive it is. For example I had a issue with a S-3 and wanted to confirm the tender wadded g the IR data so I hooked it too a newer VL challenger just so happens it went over a sensor. The s-3 was Eng 61 so when it whet over it loaded Union Pacific Challenger #3985 into slot 61.

Thanks, the only thing I'm waiting on is a replacement smoke voltage regulator.  The one I have installed is really flaky.  It was just dropping the volume of smoke to low a few seconds after setting.  Turned out you could keep setting it back to high and finally get it to work.  However, then it took a dump and went crazy and cooked my smoke PCB!   I put a new PCB in and turned off the smoke until I get the new regulator.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not sure what you're pushing, but if you like how MTH does it, I suggest you stick with MTH.   It seems like you're trying to beat us into submission to your point of view.

I know that programming 8-chuffs with a Lionel articulated sound board sounds like a machine gun, and the sound seems right to me with the actual chuff switch set to 4-chuffs.  Since it's my Railroad, it's my rules and I'll use what sounds right to me and what virtually all the newer Lionel models use, 4-chuffs.

Not pushing anything but the fact that a four cylinder simple steam engine will exhaust some radiance of eight chuffs per rev period.  Where as a compound articulated will chuff only four per rev.  And yes understand the sound of a machine-gun since have fired more than a few.  One German >22 with 15 round mag fire so quick there was only one "short" burst.

Ron

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, it would presumably load the data for whatever sound board you had, that would be in the tender.  My understanding it it just transmits the data continuously.  Since the older Legacy that transmitted to the track IR didn't have the RCMC to provide the data, it comes from the tender.  The RS6 board has an output for the track IR, just not sure exactly how it operates, I'm looking into that.

Actually my findings were the exact opposite. The RS-Lite board remembers the Engine ID to send the data into put gets the engine info from whatever the RCMC is sending out the IR tether

Just don’t know if the RS 6 worked the same way.

The RS6 board is never paired with the RCMC, that has a different serial data stream for audio, hence all the RCMC equipped locomotives used the RS-Lite board.  The RS-Lite board will also not work properly with any of the R4LC legacy versions for the same reason.  Since the R4LC has no capability to send the ID data, it is stored in the tender, either the RS6 board or an add-on board.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The RS6 board is never paired with the RCMC, that has a different serial data stream for audio, hence all the RCMC equipped locomotives used the RS-Lite board.  The RS-Lite board will also not work properly with any of the R4LC legacy versions for the same reason.  Since the R4LC has no capability to send the ID data, it is stored in the tender, either the RS6 board or an add-on board.

Actually the Vision 700E Hudson has an RCMC and an RS6 board.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Actually the Vision 700E Hudson has an RCMC and an RS6 board.

It must have special serial code, there are several sound features that don't work right if you mix an RCMC with the RS 5.5 or RS 6 boards.  One that springs to mind immediately is the bell operation.  The RS-Lite Legacy boards don't have a continuous bell function, they just have a single ring.  The RCMC sends out a "ring" command for each strike of the bell.  According to Jon Z. this was done to centralize the "smarts" in one place so the functions didn't get out of sync as they do occasionally.  It certainly made sense to me to have a single entity controlling all the repetitive functions.  Of course, it could also be the specific RS6 board that was modified to handle the bell like the RCMC

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I wanted better sounds than the RS4, so the way to get there was the Legacy conversion.

Actually, this is one that I bought on eBay, I bought the Legacy Santa Fe Northern at York.

Ah, that's right. Forgot it was the Northern, but I remember we had talked about the Duplex's that were at York. I do also remember you saying about the flanges being too darn big and if they ever released a Legacy version, it would be derailments all over the place.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It must have special serial code, there are several sound features that don't work right if you mix an RCMC with the RS 5.5 or RS 6 boards.  One that springs to mind immediately is the bell operation.  The RS-Lite Legacy boards don't have a continuous bell function, they just have a single ring.  The RCMC sends out a "ring" command for each strike of the bell.  According to Jon Z. this was done to centralize the "smarts" in one place so the functions didn't get out of sync as they do occasionally.  It certainly made sense to me to have a single entity controlling all the repetitive functions.  Of course, it could also be the specific RS6 board that was modified to handle the bell like the RCMC

John,

In my Legacy T1 I did, I used the RCMC and RS6 and have had no issues. Just a faulty smoke circuit.

@Bruk posted:

In my Legacy T1 I did, I used the RCMC and RS6 and have had no issues. Just a faulty smoke circuit.

Odd, I'll have to revisit my tests.  I think I need to build a RCMC test stand to make tinkering with them easier.

John,

I can't wait to see the finished product.  Here is mine with the Cruise Commander M and the Legacy T1 Board.  It works/sounds great, but I can't wait to see how well yours is after the upgrade.

@C&O Allan posted:

John,

I can't wait to see the finished product.  Here is mine with the Cruise Commander M and the Legacy T1 Board.  It works/sounds great, but I can't wait to see how well yours is after the upgrade.

Well, it runs great, sounds great, but just doesn't have smoke right now.  When my Lionel order comes in, I'll fix that with a new smoke voltage regulator.  The reason I wanted to do the Legacy upgrade was to get the much better labored sounds using the brake and throttle with momentum.  Of course, I also get the quilling whistle.

Hi JOHN,

  Here is my version of the T1 and I did the ERR cruise M along with switching out the sound boards with the Legacy boards from Lionmaster T1.  I did confer with C&O ALLEN, his worked so I went and purchased the boards from Lionel.

@laz1957 posted:

Here is my version of the T1 and I did the ERR cruise M along with switching out the sound boards with the Legacy boards from Lionmaster T1.  I did confer with C&O ALLEN, his worked so I went and purchased the boards from Lionel.

I have a really dumb question.  The smoke is constant, what happened to the chuffing if you installed the Super-Chuffer?  It  doesn't look like the Super-Chuffer is wired to control the smoke unit fan.

HI JOHN,

  I might have to open it up and see?  I hooked it up to the chuff switch.  I might have hooked it on the wrong prong?  

Something is hooked up wrong.  I notice you didn't use either the automatic cab light or Rule-17 headlight, I have both of those hooked up on mine.

@laz1957 posted:

HI JOHN,

  I might have to open it up and see?  I hooked it up to the chuff switch.  I might have hooked it on the wrong prong?  

Here's a full Super-Chuffer installation.  Note that the continuous smoke at idle terminates with movement and you get synchronized smoke.  Also, the main headlight is dim when stopped, and goes to full brightness when we start moving,  Finally, the cab lights are turned off when we start moving.  All of that is controlled by the Super-Chuffer when fully wired.

Hi John,

Some beautiful work! The right guy was on the job LOL

Alex

@Bruk posted:

John,

In my Legacy T1 I did, I used the RCMC and RS6 and have had no issues. Just a faulty smoke circuit.

Bruk,

Do you have any photos of inside the engine of the work you did?  I am wondering how hard it would be to add the whistle smoke option.

Thanks,

@Alex M posted:

Hi John,

Some beautiful work! The right guy was on the job LOL

Alex

Thanks Alex, but I'm still jealous of Bruk's whistle steam.   I'll have to stick that in my next one.   I hope Lionel gets my smoke regulator here soon, I can't get much smoke out of mine until I replace that.

I’m on the sidelines here, but I will comment that Bruk’s video of this model was very impressive.  The whistle steam and the whistle itself were outstanding.  Cool engine and certainly worthy of the upgrades.  Keep up the good work!

@DaveGG posted:

Bruk,

Do you have any photos of inside the engine of the work you did?  I am wondering how hard it would be to add the whistle smoke option.

Thanks,

Its not an easy task.., it requires and entire gutting of the engine and rewire. Also it requires a bunch of custom fitted parts. But I do offer the LEGACY “upgrade” as a service. Its just expensive to do it all. Email if interested.

I posted a whole thread on here when I did mine. But I have changed up the design a little so it doesn’t look exactly same as whats seen.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...cy-conversion?page=1

Bruk, I'd be interested in converting my smoke to a better funnel, I think that will make a significant difference.

Great video John.

In an interesting side note, I see that Bruk's class lights are green, and the ones on my locomotive are amber.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In an interesting side note, I see that Bruk's class lights are green, and the ones on my locomotive are amber.

I acquired some green lenses from other markers used on many engines and installed them in place of the original. Later on ill install clear lenses, then add a bi-color LED.

@Bruk posted:

I acquired some green lenses from other markers used on many engines and installed them in place of the original. Later on ill install clear lenses, then add a bi-color LED.

Interesting, are you running an RCMC that supports the two-color LED?  I guess you could just stick a switch in to manually change the colors...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Interesting, are you running an RCMC that supports the two-color LED?  I guess you could just stick a switch in to manually change the colors...

Ngineering has a Classification board. I was going to make a circuit up with that to trigger the color change for that board they offer.  

How are you triggering the color change, command controlled?  What kind of LED are  you using?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

How are you triggering the color change, command controlled?  What kind of LED are  you using?

I haven’t attempted it yet. But I was going to use the marker circuit on and off to trigger the board to change the led(s) it will require some low voltage solid state relays. But its not impossible.

https://www.ngineering.com/connect_steam_class.htm

Given the fact that you're looking at a circuit, no sense in adding the expense of the extra board.  In truth, if you just took the headlight and marker light voltage in, then you could only change the color when the marker cycled on/off out when the headlight was on.  That would address the lights changing colors when you powered down.  Truthfully, this would be a board with an 8-pin processor and a couple of components to power the processor.  Given the lack of a common ground, you might have to also include optocoupling.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the fact that you're looking at a circuit, no sense in adding the expense of the extra board.  In truth, if you just took the headlight and marker light voltage in, then you could only change the color when the marker cycled on/off out when the headlight was on.  That would address the lights changing colors when you powered down.  Truthfully, this would be a board with an 8-pin processor and a couple of components to power the processor.  Given the lack of a common ground, you might have to also include optocoupling.

Thats sort of what I was thinking about using the headlight to power it. Its a pretty simple idea but I don’t have the knowledge to make this basic circuit as you describe. Hence why I was going to use the Ngineering board.

Well, if you're wiring up the latching relays, etc. you're doing the hard part!  Also, they don't offer isolation from the power source, so you still have to deal with that issue.  Maybe you can use the 5V from the RCMC that would be referenced to the DC ground to power it.

From the looks of the N8039 operation description, you'd have to setup the class lights every time you powered up.  I'd rather write the state to non-vol memory and remember the color and state until it was changed.  It looks like a PITA to have to setup each power cycle.

1. When the simulator module is powered-up all LED outputs are off to simulate the most-common (dark) class light mode.

2. Taking the input control to ground (either momentarily or holding it there) turns on the green LEDs.

3. These will stay lighted until the input is released from ground and re-grounded. The and condition simulates a pushbutton being pushed a second time (or a switch being turned off then back on).

4. Once the input is re-grounded, green LEDs turn off and the white LEDs turn on.

5. These will stay lighted until the input is released from ground and re-grounded.

6. Once the input is re-grounded, white LEDs turn off and all class light LEDs are off.

7. When the input is again released and re-grounded we go back to step 2 (green LEDs on).

This is where DCC would make this mod a cinch with off the shelf decoders and user programable controllers.

Pete

@Norton posted:

This is where DCC would make this mod a cinch with off the shelf decoders and user programable controllers.

Given the environment Pete, this isn't particularly useful information.

You guys do realize that you're jumping through these hoops only to provide toy train Christmas tree lighting to these scale locomotives, right?

From a timeline article in The Keystone, the quarterly magazine of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society:

June 1940 - PRR ceases to use the train classification light rule (for extra,
required white lights; for section(s) following, required green lights) - shops ordered to
remove classification light fixtures from locomotive smokeboxes.

@Bob posted:

You guys do realize that you're jumping through these hoops only to provide toy train Christmas tree lighting to these scale locomotives, right?

From a timeline article in The Keystone, the quarterly magazine of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society:

June 1940 - PRR ceases to use the train classification light rule (for extra,
required white lights; for section(s) following, required green lights) - shops ordered to
remove classification light fixtures from locomotive smokeboxes.

Yes, we know we went over this when I added green to mine and everyone lost it….this is more talk for other the integration of the actual features function in general…

@Norton posted:

This is where DCC would make this mod a cinch with off the shelf decoders and user programable controllers.

Pete

I stand with you.

@Bruk posted:

I stand with you.

OK, problem solved, you're going to DCC.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

OK, problem solved, you're going to DCC.

DCC, the loneliest island in all of O gauge. 😉

@Madockawando posted:

DCC, the loneliest island in all of O gauge. 😉

Or is O gauge the loneliest island of command control. 🙃

@Bruk posted:

Or is O gauge the loneliest island of command control. 🙃

Or DCC is the loneliest hut on the loneliest Island of O gauge.😉

John,

Sounds like you should come up with a board then!

In the SuperChuffer instructions, it shows that its connected directly to the smoke unit fan and track power is used for the smoke unit resistor.  You mentioned using a smoke unit regulator here, but I didn’t see that mentioned in the SuperChuffer instructions.  What is that used for… is it necessary?

Actually track power is NOT directly used for the smoke resistor, it's either controlled by the RxLC or the smoke voltage regulator.  The early modular Legacy all used a smoke voltage regulator.

The Super-Chuffer instructions cover the most commonly used installations.  In addition, the Super-Chuffer installation actually doesn't change the source of power for the smoke resistor, that remains unchanged.

John,

Thanks for your quick reply.

Sorry for the confusion, you are 100% correct. I misread the schematic. My apologies, I should remember to not attempt tasks that involve too much brain power after a certain hour in the evening.

So as a follow up, to use the smoke unit regulator with the Legacy R4LC, do I need to change out the older 27 ohm smoke resistor for something else?

Yep, the smoke resistor for the regulator is an 8 ohm resistor.  However, all the regulators I got from Lionel do the same thing, they start out fine, but after a few seconds they cut back the smoke to where I don't get any smoke volume.

The regulator starts out fine, and I get smoke for a bit...

After a few seconds, it tails off where there is no smoke produced!

While I spar with Lionel about getting working regulators, I'm going to put a bandaid on mine so I have a working locomotive.  I'm building a small board that will switch in half-wave track power using the anemic signal you see here to trigger it, and I'll just swap the resistor and drive it from half-wave track power.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, the smoke resistor for the regulator is an 8 ohm resistor.  However, all the regulators I got from Lionel do the same thing, they start out fine, but after a few seconds they cut back the smoke to where I don't get any smoke volume.

While I spar with Lionel about getting working regulators, I'm going to put a bandaid on mine so I have a working locomotive.  I'm building a small board that will switch in half-wave track power using the anemic signal you see here to trigger it, and I'll just swap the resistor and drive it from half-wave track power.

The smoke voltage regulator doesn’t need a thermistor, does it?

@rplst8 posted:

The smoke voltage regulator doesn’t need a thermistor, does it?

No, that only came in with the RCMC electronics around 2011.

John, have you given any thought to designing and marketing your own smoke resistor regulator? Something that could accept a range of voltage input and keep a fixed voltage going to an 8 ohm resistor? The Lionel regulators seem to be quite fickle.

A product like this could have good applications for improving smoke output in conventional and TMCC models as well as puffing or fan driven units.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

John, have you given any thought to designing and marketing your own smoke resistor regulator?

It's one of an endless parade of good ideas for future electronic projects.   I've never gotten around to building a TMCC/Legacy serial data receiver code base for the PIC processor, so projects like that are on hold.

How difficult would it be to create something comparable to your LED lighting regulator? I am imagining a board that runs off 8-20 VAC track power and steps it to the correct voltage/current for a known value smoke resistor which would allow the smoke unit to operate at peak performance at all times. Perhaps it can have a transistor circuit to use the smoke input from the R2LC/RCMC to turn it on and off which would have the added benefit of not overloading the smoke triacs on older R2LC’s.

When I was still doing train repair, smoke units were one of the most common things I worked on. Everything from replacing cooked resistors to trying to improve smoke output on conventional engines as well as TMCC models. If a product like this existed, I could have sold hundreds. I can’t begin to count how many customers at the shop bought starter sets and complained of the anemic smoke output. I could have sold countless upgrades and most people likely would have sprung for the extra cost.

Not sure what your projects list looks like but I think this one could have some siginificant potential.

Well, my dance card is full, but who knows.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, the smoke resistor for the regulator is an 8 ohm resistor.  However, all the regulators I got from Lionel do the same thing, they start out fine, but after a few seconds they cut back the smoke to where I don't get any smoke volume.

While I spar with Lionel about getting working regulators, I'm going to put a bandaid on mine so I have a working locomotive.  I'm building a small board that will switch in half-wave track power using the anemic signal you see here to trigger it, and I'll just swap the resistor and drive it from half-wave track power.

Just wondering... have you made any progress with Lionel support/parts on this issue?

Nope, haven't had a chance to follow up.

So I really want to do an upgrade like this to my Scale T1 I picked up at York. Obviously, the Legacy/RS6 sounds from the Lionmaster version make a lot of sense to use since the numbers match and all. However, does that sound set actually provide "articulated" chuff sounds? Every video I've watched of the Lionmaster version (and I know there was an earlier TMCC version) seems to only have four chuffs per revolution. I never hear an syncopation of the chuffs either.

Am I missing something?

So here's a puzzle.

I recently got an RS6 board from Lionel. The first one they sent was dead. The second one works, and has the T1 5511 numbers in the crew talk, the whistle and bell work perfectly as do the coupling/uncoupling sounds.

While testing it out on the bench though, I noticed that the chuff switch I was using did not make the "chuff" sound. The chuff switch is connected to pin 17 on the R4LC (S03 code) and latches to frame ground when closed. On my scope I can see the serial stream getting modified by the switch closure, however the RS6 board produces no chuff sounds.  However, the smoke does puff from the smoke unit attached to the smoke/fan controller.

After re-watching the videos here of @Bruk and @gunrunnerjohn's T1 upgrades I ALSO noticed my RS6 board doesn't seem to be playing the steam background noises (like the sound of the generator and "whine" of the locomotive at rest).

Anyone have any ideas as to why that might be? Did the RS6 board not get programmed correctly by Lionel?

Hoping one of the above or @GGG or @SantaFeFan could maybe shed some light on it.

@rplst8 posted:

I ALSO noticed my RS6 board doesn't seem to be playing the steam background noises (like the sound of the generator and "whine" of the locomotive at rest).

Are you sure that you don't have the jumper for signal sounds installed?  The missing chuff and background sounds indicates you're in signal-sounds mode and not RailSounds mode.

The Signal-Sounds will suppress all the non-operator triggered sounds, that would be the chuff and background steam sounds.  It's highly unlikely that it's programmed incorrectly.

What RS6 motherboard is it plugged into?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Are you sure that you don't have the jumper for signal sounds installed?  The missing chuff and background sounds indicates you're in signal-sounds mode and not RailSounds mode.

The Signal-Sounds will suppress all the non-operator triggered sounds, that would be the chuff and background steam sounds.  It's highly unlikely that it's programmed incorrectly.

What RS6 motherboard is it plugged into?

I have it plugged into the same one you used earlier in this thread, the 691-MB15-A01.

Based on the diagram below, if I don't connect anything to the switch/battery jumper I should be in RailSounds mode, correct?

Well, you should be, but that's all I can think of that might affect it.  FWIW, I received a couple of defective motherboards from Lionel, one had solder bridges under the whole end of the RailSounds board, almost half the pins were all sorted together!  How it didn't blow the boards when I powered it up is a mystery.

If you have any RS6 equipped engines, try swapping that board into them.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, you should be, but that's all I can think of that might affect it.  FWIW, I received a couple of defective motherboards from Lionel, one had solder bridges under the whole end of the RailSounds board, almost half the pins were all sorted together!  How it didn't blow the boards when I powered it up is a mystery.

If you have any RS6 equipped engines, try swapping that board into them.

I don't have any other RS6 locomotives, BUT, I did have a RS 5.5 board so I put that on there. It's a diesel board for an SD40 but it worked perfectly, so I think the MB15 motherboard is fine. I suspect it wasn't programmed correctly. When I first got it from Lionel, it made no sounds other than a slight "click" on powerup. I sent it back and about three weeks later it came back now this. I guess back it goes again.

Yep, other than sticking it in another RS6 equipped engine, I can't think of any other tests you can do.  I have a motherboard that's wired up to test the RS6 sound boards.