Lionel Thumb Tack Couplers

NVisich posted:

I also received the Lionel PM & C&O cabooses. I'm not a fan either of the thumb tac. Looks terrible. Definitely 2 steps backwards. I also pick up a MTH PM caboose that was just released. See photos below.

 

New MTH PM caboose just released this week

Well, as nice looking as that MTH caboose is, it is NOT a correct C&O/PM caboose. The MTH caboose is simply one of those "Northeastern" style caboose models, and is thus not an accurate representation of the C&O/PM caboose like the Lionel model. Coupler "thumb tacks" aside.

The Lionel Pere Marquette caboose is more accurate and better looking than the MTH version.  As I mentioned before, I personally think that Lionel freight cars are a little bit better looking than MTH.  Maybe if Lionel is following this thread, they will give some serious consideration of going back to the hidden tab couplers that a lot of us want.  But until then, I will not purchase anymore Lionel freight cars.

Yuk the thumb tacks really ruin a otherwise great looking car. Lionel please bring back the hidden tab couplers.

John you may have somthing here. This does not help those who want the hidden lionel uncoupler but may help those who have small layouts with small radius curves and switches move to KD couplers for more prototipical switching and eliminate a lot of expensive uncoupling tracks.

 Here is my idea....could some one make a 3D printed coupler arm with an intagrated kd coupler box on the end. User could then install the nessesary KD coupler shank,spring and box cover. They could directly screw in place with the exsisting lionel screw and be different lengths for different car applications. This would be great for small radius operators who wish to use the KD coupers and do more prototipical switching. The truck mounted KD's would then be easy to install and would negotiate the 036 and 042 tighter radius curves and switches.I would try this,but I have no 3d printer. If some one could make some to test this out I would gladly pay for some. Yes I realize that KD couplers work better especially when backing up a long train when mounted to the car body. For small radius operators this is a small trade off we must live with . 

My drawing is a bit crude,but you get the idea.

Gweedo posted:

Yuk the thumb tacks really ruin a otherwise great looking car. Lionel please bring back the hidden tab couplers.

That's exactly my thoughts!!!

I have been wondering the same regarding the huge step backwards with the scale trucks losing the hidden uncoupler and sheet metal framing of the truck.  Its plastic on some newer items (the structure that the side frames attach to).   The hidden uncoupler style was perfect and designed with the old Lionel classic truck design process looking back the the PW era.  The realized the move to the thumbtack uncoupler has something to do with the ability to add Kadee Couplers.  Why ruin an amazing classic Lionel design to permit non OEM parts to be added?  Why not just make trucks with Kadees installed to switch out.  I am sure this will ruin operating cars with roller pickups...especially the better ones where the roller protrudes from the sheet metal truck framing.

SIRT posted:

I bet the one Mom & Pop overseas supplier went out of business, moved on or raised the price.

So Lionel had to deviate from the better design. Like Weavers die cast spring T&C shortage we experienced for a long time, we are sometimes at the mercy of the foreign supplier. I'm guessing that's what happened.

On another note: all companies should supply air hoses on the couplers. Even RMT gave us that nice addition!

It should be Lionel's tooling to move to any factory they see fit.  Along with the host of other tooling they use.

I think the bottom line with this issue will be lost sales.  It's not the end of the world, but it's the end for me buying Lionel freight cars.

Mike,

You are thinking like an American businessman under US law.  Chinese contract manufacturers have been known to hold tooling hostage, trying to force the US customer to either "pay" for the tooling it already owned or to continue doing business with the manufacturer.  Resolving any dispute like this can take years under Chinese law and legal processes.

All of the above is based on importer's statements as I've read on multiple railroad fora.

Chuck

bigdodgetrain posted:

I didn't know there were so many rivet counters here.

because these are "toy trains"  the trucks are just fine.

 

if I don't like them I will just cut the tack off.

 

easy!

And render them useless forever on uncoupling tracks?

We are getting both sides here, though since the scale coupler guys are still throwing something away and the prices have not dropped they are really no farther ahead

Would have been better to keep the big knuckle (which has made every Lionel car from after WWII till now to be operated together) and offer a 2Rail version like Atlas or just include the scale coupler pads and the "Kaydee" crowd could continue to cut the knuckle off. Do the other scale couplers like Monarch or San Juan use a different mounting arrangement than Kaydee?

If there is any issue with the hidden tab truck uncoupling  randomly it is either a design or manufacturing flaw easily corrected. My guess is when I pass my family will keep some stuff, give some stuff away, and sell the rest. Would be very hard for them to do these if they can't couple the cars to all other 3 rail equipment.

Can we get a show of hands on how many operators uncouple a freight car in the middle of their mainline for no reason?

Why didn't Lionel use the Weaver trucks ?

clem k posted:

Why didn't Lionel use the Weaver trucks ?

Probably, because the last few years Weaver was having MTH make their die cast trucks for them. In my opinion, those last 3-Rail, as well as the 2-Rail, Bettendorf trucks from Weaver were the best on the market for the money.

BobbyD posted:

We are getting both sides here, though since the scale coupler guys are still throwing something away and the prices have not dropped they are really no farther ahead

Would have been better to keep the big knuckle (which has made every Lionel car from after WWII till now to be operated together) and offer a 2Rail version like Atlas or just include the scale coupler pads and the "Kaydee" crowd could continue to cut the knuckle off. Do the other scale couplers like Monarch or San Juan use a different mounting arrangement than Kaydee?

 

Bobby,

Could you please elaborate on this comment? Why aren't the new Lionel scale and Lionscale cars the same as the postwar era cars? If anything this new truck design is more similar to the postwar design because the ccoupler is fixed ridgedly to the trucks. Couplers that swing independently of the trucks they are attached to on freight cars were not common at the time.

Every Lionel car after WWII and including TODAY can be operated together.

Hot Water posted:

clem k posted:

Why didn't Lionel use the Weaver trucks ?

Probably, because the last few years Weaver was having MTH make their die cast trucks for them. In my opinion, those last 3-Rail, as well as the 2-Rail, Bettendorf trucks from Weaver were the best on the market for the money.

"Bettendorf trucks from Weaver were the best on the market for the money"

YOU ARE SPOT ON ... on that one!

The wheel sets out perform anything I have seen lately. Add a set of Kadee couplers and you have just created the ideal car to operate with.

Thumbtack couplers are a tragedy, and the hidden tab couplers are garbage too, cannot count how many I have had to wire shut after 2 years of service, some right out of the box. Not commenting on the whip lash speed you need to couple these cars to get them to close!

I would convert them all to Kadee if I had the time and money.

SGP posted:

BobbyD posted:

We are getting both sides here, though since the scale coupler guys are still throwing something away and the prices have not dropped they are really no farther ahead

Would have been better to keep the big knuckle (which has made every Lionel car from after WWII till now to be operated together) and offer a 2Rail version like Atlas or just include the scale coupler pads and the "Kaydee" crowd could continue to cut the knuckle off. Do the other scale couplers like Monarch or San Juan use a different mounting arrangement than Kaydee?

 

Bobby,

Could you please elaborate on this comment? Why aren't the new Lionel scale and Lionscale cars the same as the postwar era cars? If anything this new truck design is more similar to the postwar design because the ccoupler is fixed ridgedly to the trucks. Couplers that swing independently of the trucks they are attached to on freight cars were not common at the time.

Every Lionel car after WWII and including TODAY can be operated together.

Not sure where you got that from the above, we are discussing Lionel's new scale cars and the hidden tab truck Lionel used on them until this new thumbtack truck they use now. The scale guys purchasing these cars are still throwing away the 3 rail portions, sadly now those who use it have this large thumbtack hanging down in space. And the rivet counters who come over still whine about the center rail...

For me and many others placing the new un-sprung composite truck with it's fixed knuckle and large hanging thumbtack on Lionel's new era fully detailed scale freight car is not an improvement. It would have been easier to just let the scale coupler guys who wish to modify their equipment cut the large knuckle off.

BobbyD posted:

SGP posted:

BobbyD posted:

We are getting both sides here, though since the scale coupler guys are still throwing something away and the prices have not dropped they are really no farther ahead

Would have been better to keep the big knuckle (which has made every Lionel car from after WWII till now to be operated together) and offer a 2Rail version like Atlas or just include the scale coupler pads and the "Kaydee" crowd could continue to cut the knuckle off. Do the other scale couplers like Monarch or San Juan use a different mounting arrangement than Kaydee?

 

Bobby,

Could you please elaborate on this comment? Why aren't the new Lionel scale and Lionscale cars the same as the postwar era cars? If anything this new truck design is more similar to the postwar design because the ccoupler is fixed ridgedly to the trucks. Couplers that swing independently of the trucks they are attached to on freight cars were not common at the time.

Every Lionel car after WWII and including TODAY can be operated together.

Not sure where you got that from the above, we are discussing Lionel's new scale cars and the hidden tab truck Lionel used them until this new thumbtack truck they use now. The scale guys purchasing these cars are still throwing away the 3 rail portions, sadly now those who use it have this large thumbtack hanging down in space. And the rivet counters who come over still whine about the center rail...

For me and many others placing the new un-sprung composite truck with it's fixed knuckle and large hanging thumbtack on Lionel's new era fully detailed scale freight car is not an improvement. It would have been easier to just let the scale coupler guys who wish to modify their equipment cut the large knuckle off.

"It would have been easier to just let the scale coupler guys who wish to modify their equipment cut the large knuckle off."

Argh... I wish it were that easy, honestly the whole scenario needs to be looked at. The trucks still ride at captain high pockets level, the floor being to high require an off set coupler or shim(s) to bring them down,  the car bodies tend to sit on an angle with the stamped truck frames that vary.  Plus, you better make sure you really like that car, because once you have change it over to Kadees... there is no going back.

J DADDY........I take it you liked switching with Kadee couplers on my RR Saturday   

Was it this difficult back in the day when the ho guys were moving to KD couplers on all thier stuff. Gees louise lets stop trying to think post war on this subject. Yes its nice that every lionel car can couple together no matter what era. This is 2017 lets stop thinking that slamming lionel cars together is still the prefered method. KD couplers work so much better and you need less of those expensive uncoupling tracks to boot. Also when you need to spot a car thats in the middle of the train at a siding or accsesory. Yes you do need to uncouple it. From here forward all rolling stock comming equipped with KD's or the ability to easily convert to them is IMO a step forward not backward. In the ho world find an old tyco or similar car and see if it can couple to an ho car today. The answer is no it can't because the ho community has evolved and move to all KD style couplers. So why can't we in oguage do the same. We love the new scale engines with command control and slow speed cruise controll that can creep cars around in a yard or spot them dead on at an operating accessory. Only to run cars on the layout with oversized couplers you have to slam together to get coupled just as if it were 1950 again. Just saying. Rant over.

PRR1950 posted:

Mike,

You are thinking like an American businessman under US law.  Chinese contract manufacturers have been known to hold tooling hostage, trying to force the US customer to either "pay" for the tooling it already owned or to continue doing business with the manufacturer.  Resolving any dispute like this can take years under Chinese law and legal processes.

All of the above is based on importer's statements as I've read on multiple railroad fora.

Chuck

Yeah I have heard of this as well.  Happened with the 1:24 Diecast Car industry...the best players were Danbury Mint and Franklin Mint.  They even moved some older tooling to China to use in re-issues and when the plants closed their tooling was siezed. 

Agree with the vast majority of the posters here. The new Lionel thumb tack couplers are incredibly UGLY and represent a major step backwards for Lionel. Agree also that the decision to accommodate the 3RS and 2R group, while disenfranchising the vast majority of Lionel buyers, makes absolutely no sense. Indeed, it is one of the worst decisions I have ever seen in the model train industry (it reminds me of Coca-Cola's decision a number of years ago to change Coke's formula, and we all know how that turned out) and I have been collecting and running Lionel trains for many, many years. If you want to really see how ugly these couplers are, take a look at them on the beautiful new passenger cars Lionel is just coming out with. Finally, like many of the posters here, if Lionel does not come to its senses and reverse this disastrous decision, I will not buy any of their new freight or passenger cars.   

Just received a collection to weather for a customer. My first look at the Lionscale hoppers - truck fell off in the box. Screws spin in the bolsters.

PS1 box car, ugly discs on couplers that no one in scale ever uses plus the box loads no longer contain markings. Grain door cars have glossy smooth grain. Several steps backwards. Someone should be fired. 

More bad news, new style trucks are not interchangeable with old hidden uncoupler trucks, they flop around a bit and bolster size is different.

As I stated before, a definite loss in sales for them.

I was just at Nicholas Smith trains this past week and saw the cars with the new trucks.  Ugly, ugly, ugly.  Most of the truck is now plastic!  Only the bolt on sides are die-cast, as is the coupler itself.  As others have mentioned, it is no longer a sprung truck.  The springs are in a fixed holder and are just for show.  No more Lionel car purchases for me.  I'll stick to their older freight cars with the better older truck design.  How can Lionel even describe these trucks as die-cast in their catalogs when its main part is plastic now?

Your right! The springs are in a fixed holder and are just for show. Wow, no truck movement?

Thanks for pointing that out. 

I believe the real reason Lionel made this move was to save money by switching to these cheap, ugly and less functional trucks and couplers. I know a number of the larger Lionel distributors were also as surprised and disappointed as we were with this bizarre decision. I spoke to several of them at the York Show last month and they were concerned about sales potentially plummeting. While it may be an exercise in futility, I am planning to write to the President of Lionel regarding this matter. I will report back concerning how it goes. 

Some here are too adamant by half that the new trucks and couplers offer no real benefit to those doing KD conversion because they "still have to throw away the claws." (I paraphrase.)

It is true that the claws are still discarded . . . I have a box full of them after converting 18 PS1 box cars. But converting the new cars to KDs is now dead simple! No Dremel ever required. No drilling. No tapping. No cutting spacers. The most basic of cavemen can now put KDs on their new Lionel cars. I love the new design as it makes my life easier. And, for many, there is another advantage . . . it is just as easy to put the claws back. Some are reluctant to use KD for fear of "hurting resale value." No more need that be a consideration at all.

It would be lovely if Lionel can come up with a solution equally acceptable to all. Only Lionel knows if the 3 rail scale segment of the market is as negligible to their bottom line as some here infer. Seems to me the very fact they made this change puts the lie to that.

It would be lovely if Lionel can come up with a solution equally acceptable to all. Only Lionel knows if the 3 rail scale segment of the market is as negligible to their bottom line as some here infer. Seems to me the very fact they made this change puts the lie to that.

True. However, it seems likely to me that Lionel expected their other customers to just accept the change and buy the cars anyway.
Letter writing and protesting here won't cause Lionel to reconsider as long as the "traditional" customers continue to purchase the cars with the thumbtack couplers.

irish rifle posted:

I believe the real reason Lionel made this move was to save money by switching to these cheap, ugly and less functional trucks and couplers. I know a number of the larger Lionel distributors were also as surprised and disappointed as we were with this bizarre decision. I spoke to several of them at the York Show last month and they were concerned about sales potentially plummeting. While it may be an exercise in futility, I am planning to write to the President of Lionel regarding this matter. I will report back concerning how it goes. 

Was with a friend running his new PS-1 Grain Door box car when the train uncoupled from the engine. He thought it was the dummy A unit and was not happy upon discovering it was the new thumb tack coupler which had opened. When it happened again I heard words I never heard in the Bible to paraphrase Paul Simon. And then to hear from Steve that there are issues on swapping them we have most likely purchased our last Lionel freight cars. Too bad we will never know who foisted this upon us. Remember a few years back when ALL scale the engines came glossy?

I planned on buying 3 appealing Lionel cars prior to the discovery of all the backwards changes with increased prices. Not now.

MTH has made many unannounced subtle changes and improvements to their later Premier line. Separate grab irons, metal details, chains, ease of assembly & disassembly, hidden in-couplers, air hoses and much more.

I'll stick with MTH, no one else can rival their newer, rugged and highly detailed freight cars.

We’ll just have to wait and see if KD conversion guys can keep Lionel rolling stock profitable. Lionel could have easily added the KD mount to the body and offered a seperate sale truck to go with it leaving the original great truck as is. 

Did they put the new trucks on all their rolling stock or just the Lion Scale cars from Weaver heritage ?

Its on their ENTIRE line.  All the scale rolling stock lists the new trucks and it shows in the pictures of the catalog.

C W Burfle posted:

It would be lovely if Lionel can come up with a solution equally acceptable to all. Only Lionel knows if the 3 rail scale segment of the market is as negligible to their bottom line as some here infer. Seems to me the very fact they made this change puts the lie to that.

True. However, it seems likely to me that Lionel expected their other customers to just accept the change and buy the cars anyway.
Letter writing and protesting here won't cause Lionel to reconsider as long as the "traditional" customers continue to purchase the cars with the thumbtack couplers.

Spot on. In fact, when I spoke to Ryan Kunkle of Lionel about this at the York Show, he was very defensive about the decision to move to the inferior trucks and couplers and the rationale for it. All he could say was that it was done to accommodate 3RS and 2R collectors and operators, who he acknowledged constituted a small minority of Lionel customers. In terms of the potential impact on the vast majority of Lionel customers like myself and many others who loved the Lionel die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with the hidden uncoupling tabs that had been the Lionel standard for many years, what he specifically stated was: "If you don't buy any more Lionel freight or passenger cars, someone else will."

He also admitted that Lionel had not done any market research or conducted any surveys of their customer base before making this decision. As someone who has worked with marketing and sales organizations my entire career, the failure to conduct any due diligence before making such a significant change to the business model and the failure to recognize the risk of potentially disenfranchising the majority of Lionel's customer base was absolutely shocking.

I spoke with one of the major Lionel retailers and once he saw the new trucks cancelled 50% of his Lionel Rolling stock order. Also his Lionel Sales are down a good chunk this year as well. Lionel keeps crappin' in the punch bowl.

Matt Makens posted:

I spoke with one of the major Lionel retailers and once he saw the new trucks cancelled 50% of his Lionel Rolling stock order. Also his Lionel Sales are down a good chunk this year as well. Lionel keeps crappin' in the punch bowl.

Wow. That's huge. If a few of the other large Lionel distributors follow suit, and I believe it is very likely they will as sales plummet, this will send a very strong message to Lionel.

A rough idea of those who are "probably" interested in KD couplers versus those of us who "probably" prefer the claw with hidden uncoupler tab can be had by comparing the number of topics covered by the "3RS Forum" (1,518) versus the number covered by the "Hi-Rail, 027, and traditional 3-Rail  Gauge Forum" (51,152). Whoever made the decision at Lionel to go with these new, ugly, cheap-looking button couplers really blew it!

Hal

irish rifle posted:

C W Burfle posted:

It would be lovely if Lionel can come up with a solution equally acceptable to all. Only Lionel knows if the 3 rail scale segment of the market is as negligible to their bottom line as some here infer. Seems to me the very fact they made this change puts the lie to that.

True. However, it seems likely to me that Lionel expected their other customers to just accept the change and buy the cars anyway.
Letter writing and protesting here won't cause Lionel to reconsider as long as the "traditional" customers continue to purchase the cars with the thumbtack couplers.

Spot on. In fact, when I spoke to Ryan Kunkle of Lionel about this at the York Show, he was very defensive about the decision to move to the inferior trucks and couplers and the rationale for it. All he could say was that it was done to accommodate 3RS and 2R collectors and operators, who he acknowledged constituted a small minority of Lionel customers. In terms of the potential impact on the vast majority of Lionel customers like myself and many others who loved the Lionel die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with the hidden uncoupling tabs that had been the Lionel standard for many years, what he specifically stated was: If you don't buy any more Lionel freight or passenger cars, someone else will."

He also admitted that Lionel had not done any market research or conducted any surveys of their customer base before making this decision. As someone who has worked with marketing and sales organizations my entire career, the failure to conduct any due diligence before making such a significant change to the business model and the failure to recognize the risk of potentially disenfranchising the majority of Lionel's customer base was absolutely shocking.

Ryan Kunkle please note your remark was off base and I will no longer be one of those buying your rolling stock as in your words "someone else will".  Further, it was a bad business decision as you will soon conclude.  Sometimes I think you "Lionel Folks" should have a "in house or on call"  Proctologist.

HMS2035 posted:

A rough idea of those who are "probably" interested in KD couplers versus those of us who "probably" prefer the claw with hidden uncoupler tab can be had by comparing the number of topics covered by the "3RS Forum" (1,518) versus the number covered by the "Hi-Rail, 027, and traditional 3-Rail  Gauge Forum" (51,152). Whoever made the decision at Lionel to go with these new, ugly, cheap-looking button couplers really blew it!

Hal

We all know who made the decision and no longer works at Lionel. I’m done with this post. I’ll buy another brand. We shall see if the 3RS guys will buy up all the new items and keep the dealers happy.🤣🤣

If the scale passenger cars come with the same crap trucks, they can keep those too

I'm in the 3RS camp and everything gets Kadee's.  If their marketing was aimed at getting more 2 rail scale modeler or 3RS guys to buy their cars because converting them was easily done. They should have done a little more research. Their bread in butter is the traditional 3 rail hobbiest. Keeping them happy should be priority one. I can only speak for myself. I buy rolling stock from all the manufacturers. Everyone of them requires a bit of work. Lowering MTH cars to get a better ride height, disassembling or cutting up their trucks,  Atlas cars do not except Kadee's without some work, Even  Weaver cars which are regarded as the easiest to convert. Require on some to do some frame trimming to clear the 3 rail flanges when the thumbtack is removed and the car is lowered. I guess my point is. When adding Kadee's I expect to do some tinkering. I was never discouraged from buying a particular car because you couldn't convert it in a matter of minutes.  Cutting up a truck to get rid of the 3 rail coupler was never an issue. I've even trimmed power trucks on diesels for clearance when fixing pilots. Adding Kadee's is a hobby within a hobby. Every car is different and each one may present a different challenge. 

 Bottom line. A nicely detailed, correctly period painted car will sell no matter what's there for a coupler. You should first keep your main customers happy and buying. Before I started converting. I thought Lionel had the best truck coupler setup. Scale modelers will figure out how to get the trucks right and the couplers mounted if they want the car.

Matt Makens posted:

If the scale passenger cars come with the same crap trucks, they can keep those too

The 21" cars do. My uncle has a set of them. The have the self adjusting thumb Tack couplers.