Lionel's "new" Southern Crescent Limited

I think Southern's new model of 4501 is modeling the excursion scheme that she wore from the mid-60's to the mid 90's.  She had a red roof during that time.  It will be interesting to see when the '01 emerges from the shop later this year what color she is.

Mr Nance, I asked this question about the Southern and did not get a response.  A few years ago, Lionel had a Southern steamer that ran on O54 curves.  Is this new one different from the old one aside from the fact that it will run on O36?  I, too, am a fan of the 1401 in the Smithsonian.

Oh I agree completely. And I'm sure Lionel knows they can sell more mikados if they paint them is green opposed to black, because that's what's more memorable then one thinks of Southern Railway steam engines.

I don't expect Lionel to be historically accurate when it comes to their models. I look to companies like weaver and 3rd-Rail for those kind of products. I think that Weaver's streamlined Ps-4 was an excellent model.

Anybody else question Lionel's depiction of what shade of green Southern used? That color they use now, is not Virginia Green. Lionel's shade of green is to dark I think.

I currently have 13 Southern locomotives (some steam and some diesel) and green is fine with me. 

If the new model does indeed run on O36, one of them may find a place on my roster.

I should get mine this afternoon or tomorrow.  I will try it on 0-36 and o-48 but I think its rated for 0-54, though.  

It depends which Southern Ry Mike that Lionel wants to model. The correct ORIGINAL color of an MS-4 Southern Mike should indeed be black. However, when Paul Merriman purchased the #12 (originally SRR #4501) from the Kentucky & Tennessee, and took her the TVRM, in order to run excursions on the SRR, Master Mechanic, Steam Mr. Bill Purdy painter #4501 Southern Ry GREEN. Thus, Lionel could offer their  2-8-2 model both ways, i.e black or green and it would be correct.

Also, SRR #4501 (NOT 1401, which is a PS-4) is currently not painted ANY color (other than protective primer), since she is under complete overhaul in the TVRM shops.

Sorry, I caught my error, regarding the cab number of the Sou. mikado vs. the Sou. Ps-4.

Ben

Southern changed over to Sylvan Green from Virginia Green during the early 1930s. I forget the exact year but sometime when browsing my TIES Magazine Library I will search for the article. Also, during early WWII Southern changed from Real Aluminuim paint to Imitation Aluminium [which is actually a gray as described with its paint number] two reasons: [1]real aluminuim "went to war" and , [2] the acid wash at the Yard's locomotive/car washers soon destroyed the real aluminuim finish.

Info that will cause you to sleep sounder I'm sure.

As regards 4501 we are lucky to have 3 paint options enabling us to spend more money:[1]the green fan-trip engine, [2]the K&T #12 in coal dust black and,[3] the standard Southern Railway freight workhorse black engine paint/ trim scheme with the red tender deck and graphite smokebox and firebox.

I would like to see this Legacy PS-4 engine come out in post-WWII colors.  Lionel's 2006 model of this engine in post war colors was nice, but it did not have Legacy.

Well if you model prior to Southern selling 4501 to the K&T, then I still say MTH did a far better job with the model.

Ben

#4762 was an early Ms-1 Class as opposed to #4501 which, as you know, was a Ms Class and Southern's first Mikado. The Ms-1 was was a standard USRA light design Mikado brought to the Southern just after WWI.  However, even as a "light" Mikado, the Ms-1 is 20,000 lbs heavier and has 3,000 lbs more tractive force than the earlier Ms Class. # 4762 was built at the Schenectady Works and its Class of Locomotive spent most of its work time on the Eastern Lines in the rolling Piedmont area of North and South Carolina and Georgia---Charlotte, Spartanburg, Columbia, Savannah and, a few toiled on the Western Lines----Memphis Chatanooga.

Mine arrived an hour ago.  I'll post a short review separately.

Video Lee???!!!

It's a beautiful model! That red roof is a bit of a surprise, as are those white running boards.

I too wish Lionel or MTH would look at schemes other than the original Crescent Limited of 1927 - 1934. Southern Railway dropped the two toned passenger cars and train name on the tender after 1934 due to the Depression for cost saving reasons. 

I would like to obtain a Ps-4 someday, but for now I am satisfied with my 1992 Lionel 4501. Having a nice set of Southern heavyweight passenger cars in solid Pullman green with either the early serif-ed or postwar block style lettering should be a good seller to railroaders in the south. 

Lionel just posted an instructional video of this engine in the blue comet scheme...good video but could they please do it in full frame/ screen and also HD...

Are you guys gonna weather those pretty Pacifics.

The red roof is incorrect but it is still a beautiful engine. Both Mike Wolf and his brother-in-law Mark Hipp knew that in 1992. I am suprised that Lionel reverted to the red roof after getting both their earlier #1396 and #1403 correct.

I did early paint and trim research on the Spencer Shops numbered Ps-4s [and the PAs] for MTH and finally came to realize that they felt a red roof marketed much better than green.

Admittedly, market size was not a small risk for an infant company just starting out with scarce capital. But I suggested that they ride over to D. C. and visit the Green-roofed #1401 in the Smithsonian, but it still didn't change their druthers. However, to his credit, Mike shipped my #1396 Crescent Limited Proto 1.0/QSI with a green cab roof--marked in big black letters on the outer carton "green roof".

The SHRHA and TIEs Magazine's various Editors and Writers have over the years researched the Ps-4 paint schemes and concluded in their 5-issue series on the Ps-4s that a red cab roof was a rairity and did not occur on the Spencer and /or Pegram Shops engine numbers modeled by MTH and Lionel. [The G Scale Aristocraft Crescent Limited is painted correctly].

The research explaining the "red roof syndrome" that seemed have the most weight relates to an event on Erlanger Hill south of Cincinnati on Southern's CNO&TP, which was a favorite photo op for the rail press when the "Those Aristocratic Harrison Pacifics" first hit the rails and, as it turned out right from the Builders, a Ps-4 with a red cab roof was photgraphed. However, a Western Lines writer and photographer reported that when first shopped at Ferguson it was changed to match the fleet. Photo Journalists such as Ben Roberts who prowled the Southern's Eastern, Central and Western Lines extensively wrote that he never saw a red cab-roofed Ps-4 although he discovered one with flat black on AGS.

Western lines Painter Jim Jordan's rendition of the gorgeous #6689 Queen & Crescent sitting in Birmingham on the AGS is all Green'n Gold including the Green roof. The flyer attached to the rear of my copy emphasized the extent of Jordan's research to get the paint shade and decoration of both the locomotive and the non-matching passenger Cars correct. The Cars coupled are the "dull" Pullman Green with AGS markings as opposed to the Sylvan shade so often depicted in paintings and on models of the Southern.

Then, there are those Lionel red-roofed Southern Asheville Division Ts-1 Mountain Class[those"Magnificient Mountains"] that were shopped at Spencer. Lionel received color photos and historical data regarding the flat black cab roofs. The Assistant to the then President responded via letter, " thanks we have filed the information".

In the long run none of this is worth "spit" but it is the record for those interested in pursuing it.

Here is a picture of one of my Lionel Ps-4's, with a few paint modifications I did.

1. The inside of the bell has been painted red.

2. The underside of the headlamp shade has been painted red.

3. A white stripe has been added to the bottom of the pilot.

I love this model very much. The only big issue I have with it is that those aren't the correct running boards for 1403. Also Lionel, can we please get some break hose details on the front pilot, thanks!

I was sitting here thinking about getting the new Ps-4 when I noticed in the catalog the number was going to be 1393. So I said great a new road that will match my Crescent Limited Set from 2003. Then I just saw the pictures and was shocked to see Lionel painted the roof wrong!!!! What where they thinking and why!! It still a good looking locomotive but what gives with the incorrect painted roof. I have 3 Ps-4 on my roster and a K-Line scale light pacific in black lettered and stripe for the 1st Crescent Limited. There's only one other road number that I would acquire into my collection and that would be Ps-4 #1401 which I hope someone will produce and paint a correct version. 

Glad to hear that you think the same thing I thought Sean! Also I've noticed on Lionel's latest Ps-4 that the drivers, the pilot, and the handrails are not longer painted green, as they were on the 2003 model. I found the green drivers, pilot, and handrails to be very ascetically pleasing, thou they were perhaps not prototypical.

I was doing some research, and in Curt Tillotson, Jr.'s book Southern Railway Steam Trains Volume 1 - Passenger, there is not one photo of 1393. So it's hard to find what other inaccuracies might be lurking on Lionel's latest Ps-4.

Looks like from the comments and pictures posted that there are some significant color differences between the old Crescent and the new version.

The 2003 Crescent had its drivers and front truck wheels painted green, and the pilot, matching the shell. The new Crescent has all those wheels painted black, as well as the pilot. That's different from the catalog picture, incidently. As a note, the 2006 PS-4 also has black wheels and pilot, prototypical for that engine.

Also, as noted above, the roof on the 2003 Crescent is the correct green; on the new Crescent it is red. On the 2006 PS-4, the roof is also green.

It has also been reported that the new Crescent has a satin finish with sheen. Not sure about the 2003 Crescent, though I've never heard anyone comment on such a finish. My 2006 PS-4 has a flatter finish, not real flat, but no real sheen is evident. I haven't sat any of the engines side-by-side, however. One other difference is that the 2006 PS-4 has a brakeman's stand on the deck of the tender, which the Crescents don't have.

Looks like Lionel is still changing a few things between original versions and "re-issues," like they always did in "the old days." It'll be interesting to see if the Alton and Comet will have changes from the originals as well.

Worth a lot more than spit to me, Dewey. Thanks for taking the time to post this information - I found it very interesting.

Harrison Ps-4s 1393,1394,1401,1402 and 1403 were all Pegram Shops Engines, Pegram,in Atlanta, was previously known as "South Shops"--Southern Master Mechanic Bill Purdie's Shop. As most everyone knows, Bill, in later years became "Master Mechanic Steam" for all Southern Railway Steam Specials under SRR President Claytor.

All three of the above engines plus some others were reassigned to Spencer Shops in 1945-'47-'49. Initially Spencer had Harrison engines 1395,1396,1397,1398,1399,1400 and 1404. Eventually, postwar, Spencer got all of the Ps-4s including CNO&TP and AGS Engines. Postwar the major Shops were being converted to serve stinking diesels and Southern clustered the Ps-4s at Spencer.

The other two Shops, of the only four Shops on Southern Railway that stabled the Harrison Pacifics, were Finley in Birmingham and Ferguson in Somerset Kentucky.

Ferguson [CNO&TP] had 7 Harrison Ps-4s: 6476,6477,6478,6479,6480,6481 and 6482.

Finley Shops[AGS] had 4 Harrison Ps-4s: 6688, 6689,6690 and 6691.

According to one of the "Spotters's Guides", Spencer is the only Shop that did not elect to paint its wheel centers white or aluminium.

Here's a later shot of 1393 in my hometown

http://southern.railfan.net/im...1393charlotte638.jpg

Note the striping and the butterfly handrails.

Read the book (Locomotive 4501) by David Morgan for the history of 4501.  It is excellent.  Bill Purdie was not involved in the beginning.  The decision to paint her in the passenger colors was probably made by Graham Claytor and Paul Merrimon.

4501 is indeed a class Ms, the first Mike on the Southern.

George Lasley

I have the 6-31713 Crescent Ltd Set from 2004.  I am on the fence as to whether I should purchase the new iteration and sell the other. 

We need to be reminded that there were only 4 Crescent Limited Engines. The four operated only on the Eastern lines between Atlanta and Washington. Two northbound and two southbound with the engine change both directions at Spencer. These 4 engines were shopped out of Pegram Atlanta and Spencer in North Carolina.

There were only 3 Queen & Crescent Engines. They operated from Chatanooga to Meridian and only occasionally ventured north of Chatanooga. These 3 engines were primarily shopped out of Finley in Birmingham.

These 7 engines, all "Harrison Engines", were the stars of the Southern Railway Advertisement and Promotion Department and targeted by photographers for a period of time after 1926 until the very early 1930s. The Crescent Limited engines modeled---1393,1396 and Harrison 1403 have also been a prime target for production by the O-gauge Importers while the Queen & Crescent versions have been generally ignored. Ps-4 1401 as produced in scale by Williams in brass and MTH in diecast were not Crescent Limited engines. [K-line also produced a nice semi-scale version of the Ps-4].

These 7 engines were each uniquely equipped as regards their details and appliances depending on the shop that maintained them. For example Spencer was noted for its long "Fingernail Visor" on the headlight while Pegram had a shorter flatter visor.  The Queen & Crescent engines wore no visor until changed at Spencer in later years. Pegram Shops liked to operate its bells with rods while Spencer and others used a cord. Some had their whistle tilted forward a 45 degrees some at 25 degrees and so on and so forth.

Most of the models are painted and trimmed for what I call "marketability". That includes the "red roof syndrome" which if you believe the historical records, film and microfilm purchased and documented by the SRHA---is incorrect! In addition, according to "Spotters Guides", much the green trim on models is incorrect, for example marker lights were black, Elesco Feedwater Heaters and most pilots were painted black. And, as Larry Neal has noted, after the early 1930s the "Limited" decoration on engines and railcars was gradually eliminated as the 7 engines were shoped for routine maintenance.

WWII brought about a massive rehab and upgrade program in the Shops of Southern steam much of which had been rusting on "dead tracks" during the Great Depression of the '30s. Southern didn't have the capital to buy more diesels in 1940-41 and then in 1942 the War Department severely rationed new engine purchases in favor of Tanks and Planes.

So I guess my point is that, although the Importers have taken liberties with their decoration of the modeled Limited Engines, they are generally very attractive. And, perhaps there is some justification in that the real 1393, 1396 and 1403 were all individually different to some degree in their details and decoration.

It seems to me that, unless a person doesn't own one at all, $$ and a personal desire for the Legacy innards and new operating system is the key element as to whether one buys a new Southern Crescent Limited Ps-4. Not the slightly different decoration or minor change in details reaching from the Williams Ps-4 in 1990 until the Lionel in 2012. But of course I am an admitted, obsolete old phart!

Crescent Limited Locomotives :

1393, 1394 , 1395 and 1396

Queen & Crescent Limited Locomotives:

6688, 6689 and 6690

Note that all of them where Alco Richmond works built and mated to 12wheel 14k tender.

The Queen Bee #6482 was also the same as the other limited locomotives but was only lettered SOUTHERN.

Hey Sean

Where have you been hiding, I thought maybe you had become a Santa Fe Fan or something almost as bad.

As time wore on, many of the Ps-4s did swap their 12 wheel tenders for 8 wheel tenders taken from Ts-1 mountains. The size of tender depended on how long their run was and how often they need to replenish water. Also Ps-4 #1400 had a 8 wheel tender because #1380 took away its 12 wheeler when Spencer streamlined 1380 as the "Tennessean".         

 ----from TIES Magazine March 1994.

Southern Trivia:

The first Harrison Ps-4 to be scrapped was #1399 which needed a major overhaul.  In mid-1949 Spencer Shops sent #1399 to Hayne Yard in Spartanburg to be scrapped. The employees at Hayne were sure someone was mistaken and that no one was crazy enough to scrap a Ps-4. So, they sent it back to Spencer. End of story is that Spencer sent it back again and it finally met the scrappers torch. [caused by stinking diesels]. 

                    .......from Bill Alsbrooks, Spencer Shops emloyee 1936 to 1960.

CNO&TP #6482 that Sean mentioned above was known as Southerns "most photographed engine".

Well, that's the question, isn't it? Some of us have been discussing that question on several threads for days, now.  I think Dewey's comments are on the money, that is, it's mostly about whether it's worth it to someone to have the Legacy innerds or not.

I have the 2006 PS-4, which has the last generation of R/S 5 before Legacy, 4 chuffs per revolution, variable and controllable chuff, variable and quilling whistle, dual Fatboys, etc. (these are things the 2003 Crescent doesn't have, of course), and given that pre-Legacy engines run so well in a Legacy operating envirornment, I determined that it wasn't worth it to get the new engine. There would probably be not that much significant and noticable improvement. I also like the brakeman's stand on this engine's tender.

It's also interesting, now that the new engine has appeared, that it has the same black wheels and pilot as the 2006 version, so it looks about the same, but with a red roof. Personally, besides being non-prototypical, the red roof makes the engine look a little cheesie, but of course that's just my opinion. This color is not the more subtle Pennsy maroon, either, but a relatively bright, orange-red.

Your 2003 version of the Crescent is a very attractive looking engine. I've heard good reports about its sounds, as well. What I would do (as if it matters!) is run it in a Legacy environment (which you may already be doing) and see if you're satisfied with the performance. It would be great to be able to compare it to a Legacy engine, and see if the operating difference is appreciable. I'm thinking that you'll conclude that your Crescent operates fine, and while it doesn't have all the latest electronic whiz-bangs, it's still pretty good, and given its great looks, it's a keeper. Besides, there are so many other new things to spend money on now!

Hey Dewey,

Nope I haven't been hiding and I sure haven't joint my Father to the dark side and starting collecting the Santa Fe. I'm just making sure I'm spending some time with my 15 month old son plus working and going back to school.

Sean

Good for you and for your son. Are you still at Duke P. ?

So these are already shipping?  I am used to waiting 10 yrs for my order to arrive. 

?????

The pictures above are from people who have already received their engines.

Just an opinion - I prefer oxide red cab roofs and tender decks.  I bet most collectors of gaudily painted models are like me, although my lone Southern is quite dirty.  It might cost a bit more to offer two roof styles.

A possible solution is a quick repaint of the offending surface?

I am glad 3-rail collectors are getting picky about prototypical accuracy.  It cannot be long before you will demand accuracy in dimensions and details, too.

Yup. That's my point. If you want something, you'd better get going, at least as it pertains to these three steamers. 

Dewey,

I'm still at Duke can't believe I've been there for 12 years.

My local dealer said that when the girl from Horizon called him last week about these sneak preview items she said that they were very limited.

For those worried about reissues adversely affecting the value of current models - not to worry. Lionel has taken care of that by making only a relative handful of the reissues.

Those wanting a Southern Crescent in the future, for example, will look to the older model, because the newer version won't be found. (Conversely, of course, the newer model could have relatively greater value than it otherwise would.)

Sort of kidding, but actually there may be some truth to this. (And coming from me, that's a rarity.)

I guess my feeling about it the actual product and the catalog picture are two different items. The Catalog picture shows the the picture of the Ps-4 from the 2003 limited edition set with green pilot and driver wheels. The roof was painted green even in the 2005 catalog that was described as being prototypical.

There was nothing in the new catalog saying the roof was going to be painted.

I will say this if Lionel where to release one more Ps-4 I would hope they visit 1401 in Washington D.C. and release that locomotive as the finial run.

Given that Lionel released the 1403 in 2006 (cataloged then), which is exactly the same engine as 1401 and has correct prototypical paint, it may be unlikely that they will do 1401 any time soon. It's maybe a little surprising they numbered the engine 1403 and not 1401.

Ben your mods look great, the touches of red really turned out great.

Prototypical accuracy is not something I care about, but realistic looking detail is.  The current Lionel has that look, whether true to the original or not.

 I notice the photo of the loco in the message above, which I guess from the context of that message must be prototypcal, lacks all the piping and equipment in the front 1/3rd of the Lionel model - that equipment is why I like it so much actually.  

Lee

The Ps-4 pictured above looks very much like my 1990 Williams brass Ps-4 which has very little piping on the boiler or smokebox. Prototypes vary---Pegram Shops covered some of their Ps-4 sand dome piping with a shroud.  I can't make out the road number on Bob2's engine---mine carries 1401.

A rust red tender deck was prototypical on both Southern passenger and freight engines according to a long ago article in SRHA's TIES Magazine.

I believe that picture is a Ts Class 4-8-2 it's hard to make out the numbers but Lionel did a Southern Railway version of the USRA Light Mountains which the Southern did rosters and used as their main passenger power on the Piedmont division before the Ps-4 where placed into service. I think the Lionel Southern Road number was 1491 and sported a red roof not the accurate Black or Green roof.

Actually the Mountain type has no prototype.  The boiler is bronze sand cast, and the rest is just parts from elsewhere.  As far as I can tell, Southern had no oil burners.  I put oxide red on cab roofs of most of my locomotives..

I have the skill to put as much detail as I want on my models, and often stop short of full and accurate detail. The Elesco feed water heater is what demands all those pipes on the PS-4.  My point was if you get to the point where a cab roof color is the make or break decision point, you are getting close to demanding accurate models in size and configuration - and I regard that as a good thing.

You're right Sean obviously--that  is a 4-8-2. Not very observant of me!

Thanks Zett! It's not much, but it adds a little something extra

I painted the cab roof of my Lionel Ts Class 4-8-2 mountain black this weekend. Stay tuned for pictures coming soon!

What color was the tender deck of the Ts Class 4-8-2 Mountains?

Ben,

The tender deck on the Ts-1 where rust red or oxide red.

You can find alot of information on the HOSAM web link :

http://www.hosam.com/srr/srr.html

Thought I would post this image taken by Shelby Lowe at Spencer Shops in the late 40s. Note the difference between the 4-6-2 Pacific (MTH had this version in their last catalog) and the freight locomotive. Tender deck on freight is red, but highly coasted with coal dust. Used the B&W version of this shot in my book on Spencer Shops last year. Cool, isn't it?

Great photo, thanks Larry.

Ms-4 #4876 is the model we keep begging one of the Importers to produce for the market. A USRA Heavy Mikado is sorely missing from the O-gauge hobby except for  those handmade by Harry Heike, Joe Scales and a very few others. Southern Railways' mainline freight locomotive for 30 years, 1923--53.

Note the Ps-4s black marker lignts and "stepped" ruinning boards. As Southern's steam power was being upfitted for the WWII years those running boards became straight on most Ps-4s.

Definetely a pair of Aces Larry!

Just for comparison, here are some pictures of Lionel's PS-4 No. 1403 from 2006, identical model to the 1401 in the Smithsonian. (You have to click on each photo to get the true picture, remember).

Looking at Ben's modification to his Ps-4 he hit the nail on the head.

Note the white stripe on the pilot and look at the Photo Larry posted.

The SC video is up too(12:52 EDT today):

That white pilot stripe looks nice - maybe I'll have to add that to mine. It must have driven Southern detail crews nuts trying to keep the paint white in that location! In fact, it may not have been used very long before it was removed. Note that No. 1401 in the Smithsonian has no such white stripe on the pilot.

Shelby Lowe,the photographer of Larry Neal's photo, posted above, was also the co-author of "Southern Steam Power" with Harold Ranks. Along with "Southern Railway Systems" by Richard Prince, the two books are the "bibles" of Southern Railway Steam Engines. Both were published in the 1960s and are out of print, although in recent years "Southern Steam Power" has had a paperback reprint.

I bought both hardback books at a NYC used book loft on 45th Street during the early 1970s.

Larry's photographed Locomotives, both passenger and freight, are "crowned" with the Elesco Feedwater Heater astride the smokebox brow. This unit caused many rail fans, and seemingly all photgraphers, to consider the Elesco an attractive viewing feature of many Ps-4s and Ms-4s. The Ms-4 freight Locomotive pictured is also equipped with a Brakeman's  "Shanty", or "Doghouse", on the Tender.

Harold Ranks and Shelby Lowe did an entire chapter on "Decorated Engines". Southern Master Mechanics were given great leeway in how they painted, trimmed and decorated their engines. Engineers took it a step further by adding bull horns, eagles, flags, Shriners and Masons emblems, placed in front and on the rear of the tender. To settle an argument on a particular Southern engine's livery, one has to pick a particular road number, on a particular date and from a particular shop, operated by a particular engineer.

For me, I am comfortable with Lionel #1403 and #1396 and MTH #1401[Proto 1.0] and #1396[TMCC]. My 1990 Williams #1401 [conv.]needs "treatment"! I am often tempted to repaint and redecorate it as an AGS "Queen and Crescent", but old age awareness takes over and I procrastinate.

Ben has the right idea, make your own comfort.

Actually 1401 does have a white stripe on the pilot! 

That's just a reflection, not a white stripe. You can see a similar reflection on the side of the pilot, too. The 1401 didn't have a white stripe.

I will still argue that 1401 does in fact have a white stripe on the pilot, and it is not just a reflection.

You can argue it if you like, but you'd still be wrong.    Here's a photo of the 1401 when it was on "active duty."  No stripe.

Southern Steam #1401
Location: Charlotte, VA
Date: July 1933
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

Well, to keep this debate going I have found another original color photo of a Ps-4 in operation. This is the 1397, photographed by Leonard W. Rice at Washington, DC on February 14, 1950. Photo is from a Vanishing Vistas large postcard published in 1987. This shows how the Ps-4s looked in daily service, for those who like to weather and detail their locomotives. 

Some observations: black class lights, black Elesco Feedwater heater and piping, high running boards and ladders, and look closely at the color of the striping. It doesn't look white to me, but imitation aluminum! It is clearly not bright white as on the 1401 or Lionel/MTH models.

As for the 1401, that photo was used in Prince's book on the Southern. That is an early shot, before the modifications made at Spencer Shops during the 1940s. Note the as-built running boards and ladders and different style pilot. It also has a strange decoration between the bell and headlight. I have other color views (thanks to the old Vanishing Vistas large postcard series) and the white stripe is definitely there on the pilots by the 1940s. 

Suffice it to say, Southern changed the Ps-4s regularly from the 1920s to 1950s, when they were retired. As modelers, we either leave the locomotives as is from the factory or modify based on a specific photograph or year of operation. Personally, I will find a Lionel 11103 and tweak it some to make a good representation of a 1940s - 1950s Ps-4 based at Spencer Shops. 

And yet here we can see 1401 after 1933, in active duty, clearly with a white stripe.

Keep in mind that 1401 was reassigned to Spencer Shops from Pegram Shops in 1945 and was likely "Spencerized". Quoting Spencer's white trim scheme: "sides of running boards,platform under smokebox, bottom edge of pilot, and tires of wheels [or in some cases aluminum, not white]. Wheel centers were not painted white at Spencer."

.....from TIES Engine Spotting features.

I expect we are viewing #1401 at different dates as decorated and trimed by two different Shops. Additionally, a third Shop, Alexandria Shops at D.C., did the final dress up of #1401 for its Smithsonian debut---not Spencer Shops. The conventional wisdom at Spencer was that #1393 was earmarked for display at the Smithsonian since she had been one of the Harrision Crescent Limited engines. In 1953 Spencer had cleaned painted and mothballed #1393 for that purpose and for static display on the Shops grounds temporarily in connection with a Rowan County Centennial celebration.

However, "officials" in Washington had chosen otherwise and picked #1401. The story that #1401 was selected because she was the only lead Locomotive pulling President Roosevelt's funeral train to be decorated with an American flag [the train was pulled from Warm Springs Georgia to Washington by double-headed Ps-4s, two from each Division on the Eastern Lines route--Atlanta Division, Greenville, Charlotte, Danville, etc.]. Interestingly, at one time The Smithsonian showed a copy of the Army Signal Corps aerial color photos of the Funeral Train and all the various PS-4s at the head end---nary a red cab roof!

I don't think the Feedwater heater is necessarily black, among other things. It's just the shading of an old, reproduced photo. Looking at photos, it's often difficult to tell colors because of the lighting on the subject, and the resulting shading. With photography, it's all about light. You have to be careful judging colors, or even if something is colored at all, from photographs.

And as we all know, this is also true when we view things with our own eyes. Among other things, colors with shading on them often look black.

A model train example is the well-known history of the black Santa Fe warbonnet F-3. It originated with an individual at Lionel illustrating a photo he had of the real F-3s, and in the particular photo he was looking at, the lighting was such that the stainless steel sides of the engines looked black.

Reflecting Dewey's comments above, looking at various photos of Southern steam engines, there was a lot of variation among them with respect to the white pilot stripe. Some had them, some didn't. Even among sequentially number locos, there was variation. Given Dewey's information on variations on shop preferences, things were every which way.

Here's the 1396, with a stripe;

And here's the 1397, with no stripe:

Southern Steam #1397
Location: Washington DC
Date: April 1948
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

From Engine Spotters Guide.

True of most Ps-4 engines after 1940:

"the typical Ps-4 was painted with standard smokebox paint, normally a medium gray. All of the jewelery around the smokebox----valve ladders, headlight, markers, hinges, pilot, Elesco feedwater heater and piping,bell bracket, handrails, were painted engine black".

"the cylinder head covers were not chrome plated or painted-----they were 'tinned' with babbitt alloy,a soft alloy of tin, copper and antimony and the effect was striking if the engine wipers kept the covers clean". [a lot of babbitt alloy around the Shops, it was used to reduce friction on bearings].

"all alumium and gold leaf paint had been changed to imitation shades to better withstand the acid wash bath at the wash pit".

"never say never about a Southern Locomotive's paint, trim and decoration". Good advice!

The only Southern Railway Ps-4 I have ever seen was the #1401 in the Transportation Wing during a couple of visits in the early 1980s. I don't recall all the specific trim and decoration but I do remember that it was an impressive experience. [My cousin worked there and I tried to get photos but she was afraid of being fired if caught].

When I rode the Crescent Greensboro to New Orleans in July 1949 to connect with the Southern Pacific for San Diego and boot camp, I remember that cab style diesels took us to Atlanta--probably E6s or 7s, then Ls class steam to Montgomery and diesels again for weight restrictions on the rickety trestles into New Orleans.

Another variation - here's the 1393, but without the Crescent lettering (post-Crescent decor period, apparently).  

Southern Steam #1393
Location: Charlotte, NC
Date: June 1938
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

And here's the 1396, but note that it has a brakeman's stand on the tender. (Also note the date - it would have been a good time to unload your stock.)

Southern Steam #1396
Location: Washington DC
Date: June 1929
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

I've noticed on 1401 from the 1933 photo she sported two candlesticks flag holders on the headlight and I've never been able to id the object that's above the headlight mounted to the smokebox. Also she has an extended pilot and a different numberboard during this time.

Ben,

Where did you get the part for the thumbnail visor and did you use caboose red for the painting the inside of the visor and bell?

I'm thinking about doing the same mods you did to your #1403 that I want to do for mines. 

Sean

If you are talking about the wedge-shaped feature above the headlight, that was said to be an experimental train indicator number board. It is visible on a photo of 1401 sitting in Charlotte July 1933 with the Piedmont Limited in tow.

I see the visor now Ben I was thinking that the visor wasn't on the locomotive but it is.

I'm going to paint the inside visor and bell on both of my lionel Ps-4

Dewey,

I assume if 1401 was power for train 38 then 38 would be displayed in the numberboard.

Glad that didn't stick around long because that really killed the look of the Ps-4.

Another variation, mentioned by Dewey previously - the Queen and Crescent.

If you have Legacy do it.

Ben,

As Larry and Dewey have stated the Ps-4 did have the roofs painted BLACK or GREEN. It would depend on what shop that locomotive was assigned too

That's not very distinctive. How about putting a "See Rock City" sign on the roof?

Ben

Ps-4 engine number five on your roster can be one of the most distinctive of all.

Road number 1380, "The Tennessean".  A streamlined,numbered and limited edition Ps-4 by Weaver. A conventional engine that has been out many years. But, a lot of room in that long, 12-wheel tender to upgrade for command control if desired.

Designed by Otto Kuhler, built by Spencer Shops.

Ben,

I've seen the Weaver Southern Ps-4 pop up on ebay from time to time.

I was lucky to acquire one from Dewey and get the matching passenger cars from MTH off Ebay. The beauty of it all is I have both the The Tennessean Ps-4 and the Lionel  N&W Class J #611 so I can operate the train with both roads motive power.

Finding matching passenger car will be a little bit harder.

The best set of cars that I have to go with my Lionel Southern PS-4 #1403 where the 80" cars from Golden Gate Depot which only 20 set in Southern where made.

I still need to get the Golden Gate PULLMAN Dinner ,PULLMAN sleeper a Weaver 60" Undecorated RPO car and Baggage car have them letter for SOUTHERN to complete the consist.

I recall the one on eBay from about a year ago. I did my ****edest to stay on top of it, but it slipped through my fingers. The first time I saw the model was in Ted Lannom of The Nashville Toy Museum's collection. He had some beautiful custom cars to go with the engine.

Ted Lannom, is in my opinion, the best southern railway o scale modeler. Though the Nashville Toy Museum is no longer around, you can read about his layout in the September 1992 issue of Model Railroader.

The great thing about modeling the "Tennessean" is what Sean is talking about. You can correctly pull it with the Ps-4 1380, the N&W "J" or Southern E units.

In the early days, shortly before the out break of WWII,when Southern first bought the E-6s and the new "Silver Cars" for the Southerner, Tennessean and Crescent; N&W did not allow diesels["dismals"] on its rails which were a part of the Tennessean's run [from Lynchburg to Bristol] over the mountains on the Washington to Memphis Route.

This N&W rule triggered the development of the Ps-4 Streamliner for the Washington to Lynchburg run because Southern did not want to tie up one of its new E-6s just for that short run. Then the "J" took over on N&W rails to Bristol where the E-6s took over.

The Streamlined Ps-4 was a big hit with the Washington press corp and much free publicity was generated when the steam powered, streamined "Silver Train" entered and exited D.C.

I saw the Ps-4 1380 once in nearby Reidsville, N.C. in Fall 1948 while at the Tobacco Market with my Dad and Uncle. It was pulling the Monroe[Va.] to Spencer passenger consist. There are a number of photos taken of 1380 in Reidsville which was a popular photo op on the Southern's dual mainline to D.C.

Although N&W did not go "dismal" until 1960, it relented on the no diesel rule for the Tennessean's route after a short while

N&W's decision probably had more to do with the lack of facilities to handle diesel breakdowns/repairs/servicing more than any implied anti-diesel bias.

Rusty

The Lionel car for the 1403 are a lighter shade of green. Not the PULLMAN green we're all used to seeing and the same used by the Southern for thier regular heavyweight passenger consists. I have those Lionel cars but I prefer to use the Golden Car car because of the 80" scale size and the details are somewhat better than the Lionel cars. The only down side to the Golden Gate cars are the lack of passengers but they do have interior details.

The Observation car on the Lionel set the durmhead was for the Carolina Special which would have used the Ps-4 or a Ts-1

Yes the Lionel Southern cars are hard to find, but not nearly as hard to find as is the limited set of 20 by GGD. I have the complete 7 car set from Lionel. I enjoy them, just wish they had more outer detail. And MTH makes some as well, but they are nothing to brag about, they're older and don't include people or anti-rattle bars. 

I believe Trains Limited in St. Lewis had a complete 7 car set of the Lionels a few months ago. check there. But I do recall he didn't want to break up the set. So it's all 7 or nothing.

I want to new Crescent cars from Lionel, only if they have issued the cars new names.

breezinup: here's a photo of the front of one of Lionel's 80' cars that came out with #1396

Yes, thank you. I'm familiar with those Crescent cars, but it's the light Pullman green heavyweights (the cars just say "Southern" on them) that were cataloged with PS-4 #1403 in 2006 that I was wondering about.

However, I think I'll just get a set of those new Crescent cars that are shown in the 2012 catalog. They're more colorful, certainly. I think they're supposed to be out in June. 

Even though the #1403 says "Southern" in large letters on its tender, without the Crescent Limited" lettering, the engine is a dead ringer for the new Legacy Crescent, except the #1403 has the green roof. I'm sure it will look fine with the Crescent cars.

I know very little about the Southern, but danged if it doesn't look like a white stripe in those photos that were posted, and not a reflection. Course one has to wonder about painting anything on the pilot white, since it won't stay that way for long.

Its obvious that it was painted that way in the photo, guys, stripes and painted pilots and all.  But to me that proves nothing.  

A

loco painted that way just would not last long in service before it looked scuffed and dirty.  I imagine it was painted just for the photo.  If nothing else, the white-painted fronts to the cylinders would not have lasted any time in road service . . . they'd be covered with grime as would the pilots. . . here they are pristine.  Publicity shoot?

Regardless, I've seen other photos and I imagine that at different times this loco and its brethren differed -- maybe a  lot -- as to trim and colors, etc.  But the paint here, and on the Lionel model, whether prototypical or not, is just way too much for me.  I think its a good attempt by Lionel and I think no one will ever resolve what is right because there is no right answer - there were very likely many actual different paint schemes.  

I have a couple of other minor projects to finish up and then I am going to repaint mine flat black.  I love the attached equipment and piping on this loco - best of all the Pacifics I've seen.  I really dislike the garish paint.  I'll post pictures not only of the result, but the steps in the repaint, for anyone interested.

Finally got mine on the rails.  So very disappointed that the beautiful Southern long bell three chime whistle is no where to be found.  What gives?  Can this be fixed? 

Lee

The cylinder covers were coated wiith babitt not painted or chromed. Shops had many engine wipers  to keep engines clean between wash jobs, many times women doing the work, especially during WWII. Cotton yarn waste was used for wiping as well as in journals.

A black and gold lettered Ps-4 will be stunning.

One thing is for sure, Southern kept their equipment looking in tip top shape. Even their yard switchers, the 0-6-0's and 0-8-0's had white stripes down the running boards. Southern was all about class. Yes there are plenty of dirty looking locos in pictures, but for the most part, Southern kept everything looking quite pristine. 

The bottom of the pilots were painted white from time to time on many of these engines, including the 1401, but they were not painted white all the time. I think that's been made clear by commentary above, discussing the preferences of the various shops. There are photos showing a given engine with the stripe, and other photos of the same engine showing no stripe. In some of the pictures it is indeed a reflection, and reflections make other parts of the engine look white as well that were clearly not parts that were painted.  Here are several more shots of the 1401, both showing the engine with clearly no white stripe on the pilot. One is from 1933, and one is from 1953.

Southern Steam #1401
Location: Charlotte, VA
Date: July 1933
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

Southern Steam #1401
Location: Alexandria, VA
Date: July 1953
Type: 4-6-2
Photographer: Unknown, photo marked "from the Collection of Harold K. Vollrath"

Ben,

You are right. It seems like a dream location now but at the end of the street where I grew up, all sorts of Southern engines trundled back and forth along with a fair number of Southern Pacific locomotives. Back then, it was mostly diesel switchers but some of the bigger ones too and I will always remember the gleaming black, gold and white trim. I think that I mostly anticipated the cabooses since there was pretty much variety over the years. I loved the slogans painted on the cars, it seemed like they had a new one every year or two. Trains still run there but they don't seem to be quite as elegant but maybe that has more to do with my memories. Thanks for helping to keep the memories alive. 

I am not very good at posting the pics and videos like you guys.  Thanks for all the wonderful images from everyone.  Has anyone operated their engine yet? Where are your awesome videos?  Please let me know your thoughts on the whistle.  I feel this is very incorrect and would like some feedback from the rest of you. 

Here's a video clip of the Southern Longbell 3 chime whistle in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFKWpPHe8kc

Jeff,

Unlike MTH Protosounds Lionels Railsound are all on Railsounds sounds chip.

MTH Protosound are  MP3 files loaded on to the chip so you can change the sounds of the whistle,bell, horn and other audio features. The only way you would be able to change the shound of the whistle is if Lionel produced a new railsounds chip with the Southern 3 chime Longbell. Now it they release Southern 1401 2 to 3 years from now then you might be able to get the new sound chip but it would use 1401 as the locomotive number and not 1393.

Sean,

Thanks for the reply.  This correct whistle is, for me, as important a distinction as all the others that make a Southern Ps-4 what it is.  I will continue to reach out to lionel for a possible correction.

Jeff

Yesterday I visited the Lil Choo Choo store after touring Spencer Shops[and buying Larry Neal's new Book on the Shops]. Primarily, I was there to check out the cosmetic restoration of Atlantic & Yadkin 2-8-0 #542, the only surviving equipment from my hometown railway. No 1/2 million $ in funds on the horizon to get it upfitted and under power. Thus it moves about courtesy of a rear coupled yard goat. It starred in the movie "Leatherheads". 

My first opportunity to see the new Southern Ps-4 and Mikado Legacy models which are displayed at eye level at the Choo Choo Store and are very nice and well done from the standpoint of cosmetic quality. The Mikado's Builders Plate is missing. Lil Choo Choo's price is $1,099. If that Mikado has been painted Southern workhorse black I might has pulled the weary plastic and brought it home.

Elementary School Kids Day at Spencer Shops yesterday, a couple hundred of them, little more than waist high to an adult. Guides loaded them on the Turntable and rode them round and round for a few minutes. Then they pulled green and imitation aluminum[light gray] Southern E-6 #6133[CNO&TP] out and turned it on the table several times for viewing. Later coupled 5 Coaches and took the herd for a 30 minute ride on and around the grounds with abundant horn tooting and bell ringing .

I was told that 1920s vehicles, woodside Cabooses and the Southern D-66 Wreck Derrick and Boom Car attracted much interest by the Kids.

At the Lil Choo Choo Store I bought a 11x21 color print of a 1995 Robert West painting of #1401 depicted underway with heavyweights in tow at Washington in 1941, titled "Three Times A Lady". White "toe nails" on the pilot and Yep, red cab roof. If she was southbound it would have likely been the "Peach Queen".

That's commonly refered to as artistic license. 

Seriously, one wonders where he got the idea for a red roof. It may indeed have been artistic license; like the new Lionel Cresent, perhaps it was put there to give more color, and or the painting, additional contrast. Whether the artist knew it was prototypical is of course unknown.

I've not seen any photos of 1401 in its working days that were in color, and in the b&w photos, the roof looks no different in shading than the green cab. And off course, when 1401 was delivered to the Smithsonian by the Southern, it had a green roof.

The 4501 Mikado was given a red roof (much more of a rust color than the red/orange used by Lionel) for it's tourist look, but whether or not that's evidence of PS-4s having red roofs on occasion I couldn't say. Perhaps some of the PS-4s were given red roofs from time to time by certain shops. If on a given day the shop had extra unused red paint, that could have been enough of a reason to use it to paint roofs.

Is this speculation fun, or a waste of time? The line has certainly blurred, but I think it's become more the latter!

Used a little natural light for Easter photos.

Interesting that all you fellows are modeling Ps-4s as they were before WWII.

Just before and during WWII they were all equipped with multiple-bearing crossheads, and all I see here are the original Alligators.

I had a scale Ps-4 built from a CLW kit; since I never saw a Ps-4 in service I numbered it 6688 from one Frank Ardrey photo; it had a set of crossheads and guides made by Bernie Gallagher.

I later found out that the 6688 was the roughest riding AGS Ps-4 and the first one scrapped.  But then, who cares, nowadays . . .

EdKing

Now I have a question about the numberboard. I thought that most Southern Locomotives sported red numberboards with Gold leaf paint and that all of the Ps-4 for the Crescent Limited has thier numberboards with the locomotive number and the Crescent Moon.

I know each shop had different taste when it came to paint and locomotive decorations.

So I thought that the Black with yellow numberboards where done in a different division and mainly on freight locomotives.

Thanks - to the people on this forum who mentioned that the Lionel SRR Ps4 would run around O31 tubular track. Besides making me want one more than ever the info gave me the idea to try my Lionel Erie K-5 USRA heavy 4-6-2 that has not been run in 8 years. It runs fine in a clockwise direction around my small layout and wow what a great whistle.

I have finally pulled the trigger and acquired a Lionel 11103 Ps-4 1403 from 2006. I will make some slight modifications like Ben did to make mine as close to the 1401 looks currently.

Now to find some Southern cars from 2006 (and Pullman lettered cars) for a early - mid 40s Crescent train.

i bought the Legacy Sourhern Crescent at York, its beauty drew me in like a moth to a flame. I am a neophyte to the SR. I am happy with the steamer, no problems at all, runs great. 

I was wondering why there is no reverse light on the tender of the Legacy Southern Crescent, is not having a reverse light on the tender prototypical, or is it an oversight by Lionel?

I have a question concerning the Lionel 11103 Ps-4 locomotive: why did they choose to have it lead the Carolina Special? In listening to a Youtube video on the 11103, the crew talk refers to the Carolina Special, which mainly ran from Asheville to Chicago. The Ts-1 4-8-2 locomotives were the main power in later years for this train.

Since the 1403 was a Charlotte Division locomotive, running Atlanta to Spencer, it would never have operated the CS route. 

Any opinions?

You're right Larry.

Larry,any luck with a passenger consist?  You can see from my pics in above post, I've had to make and letter some of mine.

I bet you say that to all the Pacifics! 

TD,

I am like Captain James T. Kirk of the original Star Trek series, I am non-traditional, I like em Blue, Green, Orange, you name it!

Fascinating, Captain.  

I purchased this engine when it was released.  I had it in a place where I could look at it every day.  This weekend I could stand it no more.  Roof and wheel centers painted black. Bell and headlight hood painted red.  Bottom of pilot painted white. I like it even better now.

Nice as it gets Jeff!

ps: the "headlight hood" was called a "Fingernail Visor" by Spencer and Pegram Shops.

I thought this a neat comparison of the whistles.  Please forgive that this was shot with an iPhone.  Southern #1408 is a renumbered #1403.

JeffT:

Thanks for posting the video comparing the whistles!

Neal Jeter

To me the Lionel Southern 1403 sounds like it have the correct note for having a 3 Chime Southern longbell whistle. The picth on Southern 1393 is a little on the high side and should be lower but the note sounds correct. 1396 might be the right notes but due to it being an older version of railsounds 5 the sound quailty is off so it's really hard to tell.

S.R. Sean,

Thanks for posting that video showing the comparison of whistles between these engines.  Now the 1393 is the recent Legacy offering.  When were the other 2 models offered and could you please describe the differences, if any, between all of these models?

Steve

Steve

Jeft posted the video but I have Southern 1396 and Southern 1403 in my collection.
The big different between the two is appearance and sounds. Southern 1396 is lettered for the Southern Crescent Limited and the drivers and pilot wheels are painted green the drivers on 1403 are painted black. The pilot on 1396 is painted green while the one 1402 is painted black. 1396 also has 2 chuff per revolution and railsounds 5.0 while 1403 has 4 chuff per revolution railsounds 5.0 and has a bell and whistle cord. 1403 also sports a Walschaert Valve Gear and brakeman stand on the tender. As for 1393 I can only go by the photo's that where posted here on the fourm.

S.R. Sean,

Thanks for this additional information on these models.

This is truly an informative thread on Southern Railway steam; thanks to all who have contributed.

Steve

Jeft,

By the way good job in Spencerfying your Ps4!

Thanks Sean!

Neal, maybe one day I can make it over to run these Ps-4's on your layout.

I will be at the TCA National Convention Friday and Saturday June29th and 30th.  Will any of you "Southern" fans be there?  JeffT give me a call sometime about running those Ps-4s on the layout.

Neal Jeter

Got this in today, it's a recoding of the sounds of 1401. And it proves once and for all that since 1401 has been in the Smithsonian, it has had a white stripe on the pilot. It's not a reflection, it is most definitely a white stripe!

Hard to believe this is still floating around!  The 1401 as delivered and initially displayed in the Smithsonian did not have the white stripe (see photo). That was added sometime later by the museum. The Southern gave the engine a full external restoration, including painting (without the stripe), in Oct.-Nov. 1961 before it left for the Smithsonian. It was moved to the museum in late Nov. 1961 into a yet uncompleted addition, and the building was completed around the engine. This new part of the museum was opened to the public in 1964. The stripe was added at an unknown time subsequent to that.

In any case, it can probably be said that whether it's there, and when it got there, makes little difference to the world.  

One thing that seems indisputable - the white stripe really changes the esthetics of the loco.  It is a brilliant accent concept as to appearance - whoever and whever it was added.  In particular since it matches in color and width the trim on the wheels it works at several levels to add nicely to the overall look.

I "removed" it, crudely I admit, in the photo below. Still a nice looking train, but not nearly as nice, in my opinion.  Whoever decided to add it had a good eye for esthetics.

I'm really suprised that Lionel nor MTH has done a model of the Southern Tennessean.

The Tennessean not only ran on the Southern it also ran over the N&W with the J.

So for me I was both honored and blessed to have acuire a Weaver Ps4 from fellow forum member Dewey Trogdon. I plan to have my Ps-4 returned to Weaver for a TMCC and smoke unit upgrade in the spring.

Sean

I now have two Ps-4 "Tennesseans" [again], one conventional and my original one with T/A's TMCC/RS4.0 installation.

Not too long ago I paid $950 plus packing,shipping and insurance for the conventional unit to a former East Tennessean and N&W fan who is even older than me and was vacating O-gauge and HO.

He is now in the Chicago area but we model railroaded together back in the late 1980s early 1990s when I was living in the Mountains near the Tennessee line and he was at the Ordnance Plant in Kingsport. 

I bet you say that to all the Pacifics.

Ah, Brian, this Pacific is in a class by herself.

Temporary esthetics, anyway. A white stripe in that location probably would be black after a month of road duty.  

Yeah - in fact the whole locomotive would look pretty dirty after what? Just a day of running, probably.  

But it sure looks good in a museum, I'll grant you that . . .

Here are some images of the 1401 being placed into the Smithsonian building. The pilot was removed for the move, but the color view from the 60s/70s definitely shows the white stripe.

Is there any information to prove that 1401 can be return back to service if and I do mean IF NS wanted to run her again? I thought the Southern only did a Cosmetic Restoration but internally she's a wreck.

Hey Dewey,

Just couldn't live without have two Tennesseans.

I'm thinking about getting the new Lionel Ps-4 but I know the 1st think I will do is paint that roof flat black!

I don't think it is a question of whether NS wants to run the locomotive, but if the Smithsonian would even allow it. I think you are right, though, that the 1401 was cosmetically restored by the Southern, but did not even worry about the condition of the boiler or firebox (and why would they?) 

Even if the 1401 was restored mechanically as well in 1961, over 40 years of sitting and the greater restrictions by the FRA on steam locomotive operation, would cause NS to spend close to $1,000,000 to return this back to service. Now, if they wanted something close to a Ps-4, then NS could try to obtain the A&WP 290 which pulled the Crescent back in the 40s and operate across the system.

Personally, I hope they restore the 611 if they want heavy mainline steam in the future. 

I don't remember now the exact details of the transaction involving the transfer of 1401 from the Southern to the Smithsonian (and don't have time to research it again), but I think I recall it involved Graham Claytor's efforts (wish he were still around). The 1401 was still fully operational, I believe, at the time the process began for the transfer. I don't believe the Southern (now NS, of course) retained any rights of ownership in the engine (railroads sometimes do), and am quite sure the Smithsonian is the full owner. 

Regardless, the 1401 is encased in the Smithsonian now, with the building being built around her after the engine was transported there. And there are, of course, no rail lines going to the Smithsonian. So it will never run on the rails again, no matter what. It's like the U-505 submarine in Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry, which will never float in the water again.

It's at least somewhat conceivable that under some miraculous circumstances 611 would take to the rails again. As Larry notes, that's what we should hope for.   

I believe the issue with 611 is that she was at the end of her flute time in 1994 when the Steam Program was canceled. I also heard that NS would allow the engine to operate on NS Rails but they will not put any money to the restoration or operations for 611. Another point have the FRA rule to steam locomotive changed since the last time 611 was running? Plus is 611 still own by the City of Roanoke?I know that an ultrasound inspection would be needed on the boiler and the same would apply to 1401. As for A&WP 290 I know that Graham Claytor tried to get her for the Southern Steam Program I'm not sure if the Southeastern Railway Museum wanted to part with her. I know many people like myself miss the day's of mainline steam on NS and the 21st Century Steam Program is a nice start just don't know how long NS plans on running the program. But some steam is better than no steam.

I believe I read that the FRA-mandated times for steam engine maintenance haven't changed at all since the heyday of steam - still the same requirements. The Milwaukee S-3 just completed her required maintenance and recertification, which took that organization 4 years to get done. Obviously a railroad could do it more quickly, but even the UP takes several years to get periodic maintenance done, which is why they alternate their two operational steamers. It has a lot to do with budget constraints as well, and parts availability, etc.

With respect to the Milwaukee S-3, its 15-year FRA boiler safety certification had expired, and therefore required re-certification. What this process entails, among other things, is the removal of all boiler lagging, the cab, and all of the flues inside the boiler. Thereafter, the interior is sandblasted, flues checked and replaced, and the whole boiler is sonar scanned for thickness of steel. Big job, and expensive. As Sean notes, that's probably what the J needs done as well.

The new NS steam program is a nice step, as you say, Sean. Smaller engines are used, which are considerably cheaper to maintain than big ones like the J. Hope it lasts, too, but I'm sure it depends on how the public relations value is measured by the NS.

I think it's fair to say that almost EVERY steam locomotive was fully operational right up until it was parked somewhere and allowed to rot.    (Not that the 1401 has been "rotting" in a climate controlled tomb.)

Depends on the definition of "fully operational," I suppose.  Before being sent on their final trip to for display somewhere, many times steam engines were not in operational condition. They had been stored various places, sometimes for decades, with parts rusted and removed, running gear cut, etc. In most cases running gear had been cut or removed to allow them to be towed to wherever they were sitting. There were instances were some had been sitting somewhere in use as stationary boilers for different purposes. There was at least one I heard of which was found sitting in some woods.

The 1401 was an unusual situation, in that it was relatively freshly shopped and off active operations when it was selected for preservation and donation to the Smithsonian, and then was carefully stored from that time until it was delivered to the Smithsonian. Here's the story (the Regent mentioned was Graham Claytor) :

 "1401 ended its days hauling local trains. It was last 'shopped' (fully repaired) at Spencer Shops in 1951.

The locomotive was retired from service in 1952. A Regent of the Smithsonian, who was also on the board of directors of the Southern Railway, headquartered in Washington, D.C., persuaded the Regents to accept the 1401 in 1953 as a gift from the Southern - to represent the 'age of steam railways' in American history.

From 1953 to 1961, the 1401 was stored at Alexandria, Va. When the new National Museum of History & Technology (now NMAH - under construction from 1959) was ready, the Southern gave the 1401 and its tender a full external restoration, with new paint and striping, in October-November 1961.

Two 250-ton-capacity railway steam cranes of the Southern lifted 1401 from a rail spur located about two miles from downtown, where 1401 had been moved. The two cranes set the engine (sans tender) on a special, 200-ton-capacity, multi-tire trailer. Late on the night of Nov 25/early on the morning of Nov 26, 1961, the engine and its tender were moved (part of the way on Constitution Ave.) to their new home in Washington.

Another eleven days were required to place the engine and tender in the museum. The east end of the new museum was completed around the installed 1401. In January 1964, the museum opened to the public."

So it is possible that 1401 could operate again.

I know she was stored outside of D.C. until the museum was ready for delievery.

Just didn't know that she was shopped to full repair before being stored.

Which brings up another question. If the Southern did all this work to a locomotive they knew that was going on display did someone think that maybe in the future they would remove the locomotive for limited operations?

ANY steam locomotive can be made operational! All it takes is a tremendous amount of money, a facility to do the overhaul/rebuild, and an experienced knowledgable crew to accomplish the job. 

That said, will the 1401 run again? No! Simply because the building was built around 1401, and would essentially have to be dismantled/destroyed in order to get 1401 to a rail head.

Re-read the information from the story I posted above, and you'll see that it wasn't retired from operation for a year after being shopped. And it was another year after that before arrangements were made to gift it to the Smithsonian. So there was no thought whatsoever by the Southern to shop it in order to make it ready for future operation after going to the Smithsonian.

Hot Water is totally correct in his statement that the 1401 will never run again. That's a daydream of the first order. It's encased in a museum in a building that was built around her, miles from the nearest railroad. Never mind the untold millions of dollars it would take, the Smithsonian would never consider tearing the building down and letting the engine be hauled out of the museum.