looking into a KLine K3270-5343S motor upgrade

I think it's going to be a heavy lift improving that motor and retaining the existing frame.  You should probably chat with Pat @harmonyards and see what he has to say, he's certainly the guy that will know the options.

Sadly, I’ve run out of the 8000 series double shaft Pittmans for swapping the existing motor in the stock Kline chassis. I do still have plenty of parts for the complete chassis swaps. The small motor swap was very popular, but my supplies were limited. There is a Chinese motor available for swapping the existing 385 Mabuchi motor that does increase the power, but with one caveat, there’s no provision or room for a flywheel. So figuring out chuff can be a challenge for some DIY folks wishing to use the flywheel with products like John’s chuff generator. The stock Kline chassis does come equipped with a 2 lobe cam, that can be swapped out for a 4 lobe cam, that can be invasive to replace as one, or utilizing 3D printed split cams that have to be secured to the axle with cement. I am still offering the full blown MTH chassis swaps, and those interested in that program can reach me via profile ……

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think it's going to be a heavy lift improving that motor and retaining the existing frame.  You should probably chat with Pat @harmonyards and see what he has to say, he's certainly the guy that will know the options.

Thanks John, I'm chatting with Pat now via email. Was hoping to avoid the involved chassis swap, but we'll see. doesn't look like that's  an option so far....

Well, Pat will know the options, I know I've looked at the K-Line and also the similar driveline design Lionel locomotives, I don't see any easy way to do a motor swap.

@harmonyards posted:

Sadly, I’ve run out of the 8000 series double shaft Pittmans for swapping the existing motor in the stock Kline chassis. I do still have plenty of parts for the complete chassis swaps. The small motor swap was very popular, but my supplies were limited. There is a Chinese motor available for swapping the existing 385 Mabuchi motor that does increase the power, but with one caveat, there’s no provision or room for a flywheel. So figuring out chuff can be a challenge for some DIY folks wishing to use the flywheel with products like John’s chuff generator. The stock Kline chassis does come equipped with a 2 lobe cam, that can be swapped out for a 4 lobe cam, that can be invasive to replace as one, or utilizing 3D printed split cams that have to be secured to the axle with cement. I am still offering the full blown MTH chassis swaps, and those interested in that program can reach me via profile ……

Pat

Pat, can you tell me which Chinese motor that is? Just want to have all my options to ponder for a bit....I'm still waiting for this thing to show up in a few more days.

Frank

@Dank0 posted:

Pat, can you tell me which Chinese motor that is? Just want to have all my options to ponder for a bit....I'm still waiting for this thing to show up in a few more days.

Frank

Here ya go, ….I was turned onto this motor by another forum member. It does work very well, obviously it’s not a Pittman, and as you can see, there’s no provision for a flywheel. Not a game changer for some of us, but for some DIY folks, it can be an obstacle,…..

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, Pat will know the options, I know I've looked at the K-Line and also the similar driveline design Lionel locomotives, I don't see any easy way to do a motor swap.

I definitely trust that you guys know what your doing after seeing your experience on this forum. Thanks for the input. I just got into this several months ago. I started reminiscing about my childhood mpc steam loco from the 70's and things quickly spiraled out of control! Fortunately, the wife was supportive and so I made a table and a layout...I am finding that dealing with the Industry at large is not easy and guys like you and Pat are quite valuable to the community. I've been scanning this forum for months before joining. I'm adding one more aux loop to the top layer then starts the diorama!

Also, keep this in mind, ….this is not a bolt in solution! It still requires some machining and fitting of parts to make it work properly.

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Here ya go, ….I was turned onto this motor by another forum member. It does work very well, obviously it’s not a Pittman, and as you can see, there’s no provision for a flywheel. Not a game changer for some of us, but for some DIY folks, it can be an obstacle,…..

Pat

Cool, Thanks Pat! I'm guessing the challenge for me would be transferring the worm gear since I don't own a lathe...Looks like I got lots to think about... Feel free to give me a quote on a full chassis swap and eta just for laughs...

@Dank0 posted:

Cool, Thanks Pat! I'm guessing the challenge for me would be transferring the worm gear since I don't own a lathe...Looks like I got lots to think about... Feel free to give me a quote on a full chassis swap and eta just for laughs...

It is a bit more involved then just transferring the gear. Without specific knowledge of shaft diameters, hub diameters, etc,. it can turn into a wreck quickly.

Pat

I have a couple of Buehler motors that I've thought might be a good option, they're closer in size to the stock motors.  The Buehler motors are around 2mm larger in diameter than the Mabuchi 3xx motors, but they're about 12mm longer.  Also, the shaft is 3mm as opposed to the 2.3mm of the smaller motors.

Danko, here is the motor Pat pictured in my Hudson. You can find them at ebay and Amazon for 12-18 bucks. Make sure you use the 12v 8000 RPM version as it has the most torque.  Its rated at twice the torque as the Mabuchi. To use it you have to remove the gear from Mabuchi, drill it larger and use a set screw. Removing it usually means destroying the Mabuchi so its a commitment. Other mods include drilling new holes in the motor mount and grinding some material off the motion hanger mount. Your choice of fan smoke units will be limited though. The Lionel one shown is NLA.

I swapped chuff cams and its driven with a ERR Cruise M so lack of flywheel is not an issue.

Pete

I think the MTH smoke unit will fit with the longer motor.

That motor looks to be the size of the Buehler motor.

@Norton posted:

Danko, here is the motor Pat pictured in my Hudson. You can find them at ebay and Amazon for 12-18 bucks. Make sure you use the 12v 8000 RPM version as it has the most torque.  Its rated at twice the torque as the Mabuchi. To use it you have to remove the gear from Mabuchi, drill it larger and use a set screw. Removing it usually means destroying the Mabuchi so its a commitment. Other mods include drilling new holes in the motor mount and grinding some material off the motion hanger mount. Your choice of fan smoke units will be limited though. The Lionel one shown is NLA.

I swapped chuff cams and its driven with a ERR Cruise M so lack of flywheel is not an issue.

Pete

Pete, didn’t we also have to reduce the nose cap’s bearing housing diameter to fit the stock Kline motor mount? …..seems we had to something like this on this motor, …I know I had to turn down the Pittmans to fit the bore properly,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Pete, didn’t we also have to reduce the nose cap’s bearing housing diameter to fit the stock Kline motor mount? …..seems we had to something like this on this motor, …I know I had to turn down the Pittmans to fit the bore properly,…..

Pat

Yes, I forgot that step. CRS you know. Here is before and after of my motor. I removed most all of the bearing housing as I wasn’t sure it would fit and didn’t want to bore out the motor mount. Next time I would remove less material to keep at least some of the retainer and open up the mount. The bearing is a press fit so no worries about it slipping out.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Yes, I forgot that step. CRS you know. Here is before and after of my motor. I removed most all of the bearing housing as I wasn’t sure it would fit and didn’t want to bore out the motor mount. Next time I would remove less material to keep at least some of the retainer and open up the mount. The bearing is a press fit so no worries about it slipping out.

Pete

I'm guessing you did that with a lathe? Looks pretty clean. Certainly don't thin I'll be trying it with a Dremel tool! LOL

I do have lathes but if you bore out the mount you won’t have to modify the motor.

I didn’t want to modify the mount in case I had to put the Mabuchi back in.

Pete

@Dank0 posted:

I'm guessing you did that with a lathe? Looks pretty clean. Certainly don't thin I'll be trying it with a Dremel tool! LOL

It really has to be done on a lathe, …..that work pictured by Pete is what keeps the shaft centered on the motor mount, …..if it’s cockeyed, by trying an eyeball measurement, you’ll be there forever trying to get a good gear mesh,……hence why I said it’s a little more involved then just popping off a gear,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

It really has to be done on a lathe, …..that work pictured by Pete is what keeps the shaft centered on the motor mount, …..if it’s cockeyed, by trying an eyeball measurement, you’ll be there forever trying to get a good gear mesh,……hence why I said it’s a little more involved then just popping off a gear,…..

Pat

Understood..I was a machinist in another life, so that was my immediate assessment as well.

@Dank0 posted:

Understood..I was a machinist in another life, so that was my immediate assessment as well.

Oh, cool, then we’re in good company, ……proceed sir, you must be no stranger to danger then!…….when we go to cut something to shreds around here, our first words are “ oh well, here we go!!”

Pat

Also, I haven't gotten a close up look at it yet, so I don't have a good idea of what I'm dealing with regarding the mount. Soon enough though! Thank god I have other trains to run in the meantime... The real trouble for me is getting ahold of the command/control system. Just getting into this several months ago, I can't get Legacy control. MTH is also MIA and I wouldn't want to get an older TMCC option with the Base 3 looming.

I'm relegated to a universal remote and conventional for now. The industry appears to be having some serious problems, but that's a whole other can of worms so I'll digress...

@Dank0 posted:

I'm guessing you did that with a lathe? Looks pretty clean. Certainly don't thin I'll be trying it with a Dremel tool! LOL

BTW you might notice two threaded holes in the modified end bell that weren’t there originally. When I had it off to remove the bearing retainer I noticed two dimples on the inside of the cover. Turned out the spacing was identical to Mabuchi motor mount holes so it was easy to drill and tap the holes and the mount didn’t have to modified.

Pete

@harmonyards posted:

Oh, cool, then we’re in good company, ……proceed sir, you must be no stranger to danger then!…….when we go to cut something to shreds around here, our first words are “ oh well, here we go!!”

Pat

Then there's the old "if you can't find em grind em" which is kind of borrowed from motor sports.

And my personal favorite: "Ten atta boys don't add up to one oh ****"

I was in plastic injection tooling back in the late 90's as a younger man.

Thanks again everyone for the attention. I'm sure I'll find a solution eventually with the support here. Think I'll mess with the layout for a minute. Gotta work on the last aux loop for the upper layer so I can start building trusses to replace some of the 2x4 blocks that would otherwise remain visible...

A strangely addictive hobby! Never would have guessed if you'd asked me a year ago.

I'm wondering about motor voltages and rpm/speed. Should it be 12v or 24v? is it critical? should the motor speed be in a certain range as a rule of thumb? I saw a motor on amazon which is a pretty favorable size. dual 2.3mm shaft. Not perfect but its rated at  25,000 rpm at 24v! Guessing that would be bad..lol

@Dank0 posted:

I'm wondering about motor voltages and rpm/speed. Should it be 12v or 24v? is it critical? should the motor speed be in a certain range as a rule of thumb? I saw a motor on amazon which is a pretty favorable size. dual 2.3mm shaft. Not perfect but its rated at  25,000 rpm at 24v! Guessing that would be bad..lol

If you are doing this to increase pulling power you want a motor with more torque.

Some of the ebay sellers list the torque values of the 31ZY. The 12v 8000 RPM version has the greatest torque of the 6 versions its available in at the same voltage. A 24 v motor may show more torque but thats at 24v and the motor never sees a voltage that high in this engine.

31ZY

Pete

Pete, as I recall, your swap performed admirably with a good string of cars at the last show, ……no??…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Pete, as I recall, your swap performed admirably with a good string of cars at the last show, ……no??…..

Pat

It is definitely an improvement now. Ten 18” cars are no sweat. It has pulled 13 before the old traction tires spun off. I still have to do an endurance run for at least an hour to check for overheating but so far there is either not room or the couplers are not holding.

Pete

Awesome Pete.

@Norton posted:

If you are doing this to increase pulling power you want a motor with more torque.

Some of the ebay sellers list the torque values of the 31ZY. The 12v 8000 RPM version has the greatest torque of the 6 versions its available in at the same voltage. A 24 v motor may show more torque but thats at 24v and the motor never sees a voltage that high in this engine.

31ZY

Working voltage V(Optional)	6V	12V	12V	24V	24V	24V
No-load current mA	≤180	≤350	≤110	≤200	≤200	≤41
No-load speed  rpm	4000	8000	4000	5000	8000	3500
Rated moment of force gf.cm	100	200	100	200	200	150
Rated speed rpm	3200	6500	3200	4000	6600	2500
Rated current A	≤0.8	≤1.6	≤0.5	≤0.6	≤1.0	≤0.3
Locked-rotor moment of force gf.cm	≥500	≥1000	≥600	≥850	≥1200	≤400
Locked-rotor current A	≤3.3	≤6.5	≤2.3	≤2.0	≤4.4	≤0.8

Pete

Thanks Pete. I was goofing around late last night looking to see if I could find a double shafted motor with a 2.3mm shaft and dims close to 29x37mm. I still haven't quite figured out what torque value range I'm looking for or even what the torque specs of the original motor are. I'm gonna likely buy the Buehler motor from John and play around with it on my own first. Your motor is still an option of course. Worst case, I'll end up sending it to Pat if I decide to tap out which is likely I know. I just couldn't resist the challenge to see if I couldn't figure it out on my own. I still have more to learn about torque specs it would seem!

Your option is certainly viable. I won't get the engine till Monday so I don't know what the cam looks like with regards to the chuff. My brain was trying to avoid that and stick with the flywheel since its a blind spot. Fortunately, I'm at a point where I can change direction quite easily without much consequence.

I found what appear to be the specs for the original Mabuchi RS-385:

If I'm reading that correctly, that motor produces 103 g-cm of torque at 23.5v which is half the 31ZY. That's the best chart I've found so far. You can find these things 4-5$ so it's not hard to see where the cost cutting went on here. Now at least I have a slightly better understanding of the relationship between the rpm/torque/voltage values.

If I'm not mistaken, that would be further reduced by the actual operating voltages.. The reason you go with the 12v version on 31ZY.

Here are the specs for the various Mabuchi RS-385s. Most used is the RS-385PH.

https://product.mabuchi-motor....lt.html?t=1686238175

I bought a few of the smaller Buelhers but found their torque to be not significantly more than the Mabuchi.

I think if you could find a Pittman 8600 in 12v that would be ideal. It would fit with a thinner flywheel.

Pete

Ha ha,

looks like we both has the same idea about printing specs but you went to the source!

That there be a wimpy motor in contrast!

@Norton posted:

Here are the specs for the various Mabuchi RS-385s. Most used is the RS-385PH.

https://product.mabuchi-motor....lt.html?t=1686238175

I bought a few of the smaller Buelhers but found their torque to be not significantly more than the Mabuchi.

I think if you could find a Pittman 8600 in 12v that would be ideal. It would fit with a thinner flywheel.

Pete

Are you referring to the 24v Pittman in the photo? Find that in a 12v?

@Dank0 posted:

Are you referring to the 24v Pittman in the photo? Find that in a 12v?

Yes a 12v version of that motor. Lionel used that 24v motor in a TMCC Veranda but for the Hudson I think 12v would be better.

Pete

@Dank0 posted:

Are you referring to the 24v Pittman in the photo? Find that in a 12v?

Yes,…..even with electronics, you’ll never get near the 24V range where the torque is being made, ( probably 17-24V ) …..the gear ratio of the locomotive will never let you use a 24V motor to its full potential,…..

Pat

Thanks guys! I'm definitely glad to be going through this as a learning exercise. I new nothing of motors prior.

Is there an upper limit for rpm? is 11,250 rpm at 18v too high? I found this one last night as a possibility before you guys responded today. it doesn't show torque specifically, but the rpm/voltage seems to be in a similar range. Those Pittmans are elusive which Pat well knows!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...W2QP9EQYPC&psc=1

@Dank0 posted:

Is there an upper limit for rpm? is 11,250 rpm at 18v too high?

You need to know the basics, ….what rpm makes the most power at the sweet spot of the locomotive’s gear ratio, ……18K sounds awfully high, …..I’d think the Kline Hudson would approach sonic boom territory with that range, ……most scale steamers use motors in the 5-8K rpm range ……again, and as Pete already mentioned, 12V would be ideal given the size of the motor, ……the closer you get to peak power in a given range at the lower rpm scale the better it’ll perform,…..we look to make the most power, at the lowest rpm range possible, and not make heat, ……that’s the idea of it…..

Pat