Loose gear LC+ RS3

If you are still within the 1 year warranty period, contact Lionel and arrange for it to be repaired by Lionel free of charge. Arnold

Thanks Arnold. I bought this around 2014. I bought it from Charles Ro, and I know they do service. However, up until now, I have never had to have anything repaired, I guess I've been lucky! Do you know what a repair could potentially cost? 

No idea.

My strategy with new stuff like LC+ that is out of warranty, is only to run it when I have an audience, like my 7 year old granddaughter. That way, I feel like I'm minimizing the need and cost of possible future repairs.

For everyday train running, I usually run Postwar, which is very durable, reliable and fixable. Arnold

Oh my goodness. My whole world is Lionchief! Your strategy, while enviable, is not adaptable for me. 

Thanks again. 

First off post war trains break too. I should know. You have to become good at finding spare parts, making repairs and sometimes making your own tools. Or you send it out for repairs.

Which train do you actually have? Model number? Road name? Did it come in a set?

Is it just the one gear? Are you good at fixing things like this?

Cost of repair could be a few dollars for the gear or $50 to $100 to send it out. Of course this all depends on exactly what is broken.

I'm more into fixing my post war because they always break down. I have more than a few older RS-3's with plastic gears but even with hard use I haven't broken one.

I you give me more info maybe I can help you decide if you can repair or send it out.

I wouldn't characterize the strategy as enviable. I pay $300 plus whatever for an engine, I'm going to run it. No sense having a bunch of money tied up and then babying it.  Out of warranty, no problem. There are lots of people available to fix engines. 

The plastic gear has stripped on the gear axle, only repair is replace the gear. The gear is around 3.00 and all you have to do is tap the new gear on the shaft. Fairly simple repair you can do at home.  If Lionel has the gear.

Replace it with a Williams or MTH truck block. No excuse for using plastic gears

Just checked Lonel's parts list. Obsolete. Figures.

Can you push it back on and put a little jbweld on it?

I have a Lionchief Christmas set that has this very same problem but the gear has not fallen all the way off. It was so bad I decided to set up DCS for the Christmas layout and run an MTH engine this year. The LC only got used once for last years Christmas layout. 

This is an idler gear I believe that turns on a shaft between the drivers. No way that I can tell to keep it in place. Mine was this way from the factory. I'll stay away from LC in the future. Dislike plastic gears in drive applications.

Good morning, and thanks for all the replies that came in overnight. 

The engine in question is Chicago & North Western Lionchief™ Plus RS-3 Diesel #1621

I had just set her up to be an ore hauler; purchased the ore care 6 pack by that road name to match up. I didn't get far!

I am afraid I am not handy with repairs, and I may bring her to Charles Ro and get her fixed. However, that will burn the money earmarked for any new acquisitions, which I usually make this time of year. But that's neither here nor there, I want this running again.  

Here is some video that might flesh out some details, thanks for looking.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QQSCsPv75hxDjeQBA

What you need is this:

It is a $15 part but Lionel says it is "obsolete" and "unavailable" 

Installation of this shaft w/ gears is a simple 20min job (well, 15 min since you already have the shell off). 

Thank you Geysergazer. Obsolete and unavailable?! That doesn't bode well for resolution.

But that might make my future spending money on LionChief obsolete and unavailable! 

Kidding! I couldn't resist. I'm not that easily fazed and I do remain undeterred to get it going again. 

I've read that the Chinese vendors are no longer making production runs of parts only for purchase by the US train companies. That instead, they have to order extra items of the finished product and then disassemble them for parts. So I guess that must be true. I don't believe it was like this when Sanda Kan was the major train vendor/manufacturer in China.  I could be wrong on that, but parts for common items were certainly more readily available years ago.

Even more disheartening, is that this is a larger production run item aimed at a larger audience than some of the high end items. That it is both "obsolete" and "unavailable" is not very encouraging for anyone considering a LionChief plus locomotive purchase.

It could also be that the "formula" of the plastic has changed. As an example, I've got rolling stock from the MPC period of Lionel, where the plastic knuckle couplers still spring open when activated. I've got more recent production Lionel cars where the plastic knuckle couplers no longer spring open. They do open, but they don't spring open as my MPC era cars still do.

Heck, I've got plenty of lower-end types of locomotives with plastic gears that don't have all the latest electronic/digital features, but I've never encountered a problem with any of the plastic gears on them like this one here.

Thanks Brian, that is food for thought. And I agree, this is a common enough loco, and I believe it was a good seller, at least that's my sense of it. Interesting.

Now the repair shop, do you think it will be the same story with them? The part required is unavailable and obsolete, and therefore we can't fix it? 

It's "obsolete" because it is a bad design. It's "unavailable"because others have had the same failure and exhausted the parts supply.

There's a good chance the new part would fail again anyway.

I'd get it touch with Ro and see what your options are.

Thanks Rick. Wow, this problem is turning out to be surprisingly severe! I am going to move on this, up until now I didn't consider it urgent, but I plan to get over to Charlie Ro, no later than tomorrow. 

It was the Lionchief product line that brought me off the fence and back into the hobby. I had a set when I was young, and considered picking back up with it again, and the Lionchief engines and their wireless remotes was the compelling factor. And as such, that is all I have, a nice little roster of (2) RS3, (2) FT units, (2) GP7's.

I was going to add a NW2 this year, but that is on freeze for now.

Well that's interesting info Rick.

Out of curiosity, I looked on the Lionel parts website. I don't know the production runs: Which model is older and which is newer. But I do see an RS-3 LionChief truck assembly with a similar part, but a brass gear instead. Item #8 and this one is marked as available.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...3f-9901-63fd7c3bc9b0

The big question is whether the newer improved (?) part will work with your particular LionChief RS-3, or will you have to purchase an entirely new truck assembly. Maybe someone at Ro's would know the answer, but I'd think you'd be better off sending a question to the Lionel service department, or giving them a call to find out if the parts are compatible between the different model numbers.

Addendum: It sounds like you live near Ro's, and I see they have a repair department, so that would probably be a first bet.

Lionel Lionchief diesel trucks leave a lot to be desired. A club member has three identical C-420s. Even though the gear on the main drive shaft is brass, the shaft has too much play and the gear only engages half the surface of the idler gears. The idler gears are very loose on their bearings and hang off at an angle. As a result the gears no longer engage on one engine and the other two engines are not far behind.

I don't know of any other 3 rail diesel with trucks made as poorly other than early Weaver with their phenolic gears that split.

Pete

Thanks Norton. This is becoming downright grim now! 

Okay, first Sean you need this new part. I don't know if this would work with the LionChief engines, but @gunrunnerjohn made a post elsewhere on this forum about using the plastic snap closers from bread bags as a snap in spacer to help gears align better.

I had one engine with one axle that wasn't engaging the gear as good as it could. So I tried John's idea, so I took one of those bread bag closers, cut it down in size just a little bit, popped it in on the opposite side of the geared wheel on the engine, and it made a big improvement.

Granted, this doesn't excuse poor design engineering. And I'm talking about improving an engine I paid $35.00 for, not $250-$300. But John's idea certainly helped in my case, and he has had experience with train repairs, so maybe (?) he would know.

This here is one of the reasons I stick with "tried and tried" instead of "new and improved," which might not always necessarily add up to "improved" as much as "new."

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Well that's interesting info Rick.

Out of curiosity, I looked on the Lionel parts website. I don't know the production runs: Which model is older and which is newer. But I do see an RS-3 LionChief truck assembly with a similar part, but a brass gear instead. Item #8 and this one is marked as available.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...3f-9901-63fd7c3bc9b0

The big question is whether the newer improved (?) part will work with your particular LionChief RS-3, or will you have to purchase an entirely new truck assembly.

The answer is no.  Look at them side by side, the brass gear is much smaller to start.

Thanks again Brian, but I have decided that the first step on the resolution path will be a visit to Charles Ro, where I bought this and all my other stuff, and take it from there. 

I plan to update after my visit which will be no later than tomorrow.

Looks like you have 2 options. 1st is remove the gear assembly and use Lock-tite on the gear and shaft. I would use red Lock-tite over JB Weld in this situation as will have better gripping power on the slippery plastic. And depending how much you want to spend, replace the truck block and gear with the newer version.

Lionel announced last year that it would be going back to metal gears on its LionChief models after many hobbyists complained about the plastic gears failing in this manner. That’s why the plastic gear is now obsolete.

I suggest contacting Lionel to determine if a brass gear can be substituted. An experienced repair tech at a hobby shop might be able to answer that question as well.

The C-420 I referenced above had the small brass gear but was driving two larger idler gears. I suspect if you change out the plastic drive gear with the brass gear you would also have swap out the two idler gears assuming they can be replaced easily.

Pete

No metal equivalent. i have checked in the past.

Time for a cottage industry to spring up and make metal gears for LC+ locomotives.

Any chance, since it it out of warranty, to use cyanoacrylate glue or epoxy to reattach the gear to the shaft, even if it has a minor split in it?

Norton posted:

The C-420 I referenced above had the small brass gear but was driving two larger idler gears. I suspect if you change out the plastic drive gear with the brass gear you would also have swap out the two idler gears assuming they can be replaced easily.

Pete

No go there. I suspect the pin location for the idle gears would not be in the right position. 

SeanG posted:

I take a peak, and then I see this, attached.

I went to a local train show a couple of weekends ago.  Bought a new-in-box Lionchief Plus RS3 (Pennsylvania line).  Tried to run it and saw the same thing you saw.  Busted gear.  Vendor offered to switch shells on another new-in-box Lionchief Plus RS3.  Guess what we saw when we opened the box?  Yep, the same broken gear.  This isn't a one off problem.  It seems to be a systemic issue with these engines.

It would be interesting if someone with the gear problem would send it to Lionel for repair, and see what they do with it.

Thanks for all the replies. I will update tomorrow. Hopefully, I didn't bet on the wrong horse when I went all in with Lionchief. 

breezinup posted:

I would be interesting if someone with the gear problem would send it to Lionel for repair, and see what they do with it.

I suspect if it was under warranty, they would replace the whole truck, at least I hope they would. 

Pete

Sorry haven't had any time to look for the part. However it appears some have tried. Crazy work schedule with over 6 hours of drive time today.

I would think that an updated full truck assembly may fit. Then your probably looking as between $30 and $50 and it would be an easy swap. Now of course the updated one would have to fit and it is 100% my guess on the cost. If you send it for repair then of course it is going to be more.

If I get time I will see if I can find your part. But to be honest if the updated truck will fit that is a better choice. 

A shoemaker repair job is possible however it may or may not last. Might be worth a try.

The plastic used in those gears doesn't take CA adhesive at all, it won't adhere to the material.

Thanks for the all responses I really appreciate it.

I have an update, but unfortunately I am not any further along with this; I called over to Charles Ro before visiting, it is $60/hour plus parts for a repair.

Now I bought this engine in 2014 for 269.99 (plus MA state tax). At those rates, it won't be long before I turn a $269 engine into a $400+ engine! 

So I'm stuck for now, I am afraid. Maybe I will see another LC+ RS3 being sold for parts sometime.

Thanks again everybody.

SeanG posted:

Thanks for the all responses I really appreciate it.

I have an update, but unfortunately I am not any further along with this; I called over to Charles Ro before visiting, it is $60/hour plus parts for a repair.

Now I bought this engine in 2014 for 269.99 (plus MA state tax). At those rates, it won't be long before I turn a $269 engine into a $400+ engine! 

So I'm stuck for now, I am afraid. Maybe I will see another LC+ RS3 being sold for parts sometime.

Thanks again everybody.

I think you can buy a pair of replacement trucks for that engine for that price. Maybe even get the updated ones. They aren't that hard to replace. Much easier than a scale engine.

Pete

Since this seems to be a pandemic, I wonder if NorthWest Short Line possibly has or could design a suitable replacement/upgrade?

https://nwsl.com/

Order Inquiries: sales@nwsl.com

Technical Support: tech@nwsl.com

SeanG posted:

So I'm stuck for now, I am afraid. Maybe I will see another LC+ RS3 being sold for parts sometime.

I'd think about Pete's suggestion, any one of these being sold for parts probably has the same problem!

Thanks Pete  - do have you a link please?

This appears to show a truck with the brass drive gear. You would need the truck and gear assembly. Item 1 and item 8 in this link. Too bad you missed the half price sale. You could have gotten the pair for around 60 bucks.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...3f-9901-63fd7c3bc9b0

Pete

Remember, you will need to replace both power trucks so that they match if you use an alternate setup like what Pete is suggesting.

Thanks Pete.

And thanks BMoran4 for pointing that out, I thought I might only have to get one of each and I was off to the races!

They have half price sales from time-to-time you say? I might wait for the next one. I'm a Red Sox fan, I've learned to be patient!

Unfortunately you just missed the 1/2 price sale.  They don't have another till Nov 2020.  

Thanks Train Nut. Certainly not the first time I've had to "wait till next year", I will get that RS3 to run again at a future date.

For now I do have other locos to enjoy.

Kind of a letdown though, to learn the LC+ is not all that. Although it is my fault for buying into the "dual maintenance-free motors" feature, I should have known that was too good to be true!

The gear is not cracked, is it? Just loose on the shaft? Before investing money, I would try the Tite-Loc that I already suggested.

Well this is encouraging, I at least got it moving again!

To answer Chucks question, I took the rear truck apart to see if the gear is intact or not and it appears to be okay. I put the truck back together, and the RS3 is going, but reverse only! 

And if I didn't specify earlier, I apologize, but it is the front truck that lost the gear. 

Halfway there!

You could remove the gear and run it as a one-motor unit until you get the new trucks.  I'd disconnect the motor as well.

Thanks John, I think I will.

This strengthens my resolve!

I don't consider myself very mechanical, but I am learning that is an unwritten requirement for this hobby. I'm getting there and I have learned a lot by going through this.

Here is a question, on the front motor, why is that top piece not attached to anything? It comes right off! But I know my LC+ GP7, it's the same thing.

Please see attached to see what I'm getting at, thanks.

That is a flywheel - think of it like a mechanical capacitor. It allows for smoother operation of the motor and therefore the locomotive. Its only interface is the armature of the motor. (On some advanced models, there will be a stripped tape that is read by an optical sensor to get an actual tachometer reading)

Gotcha, thanks BMoran.

The flywheel shouldn't "lift off", it's pressed on the shaft.  If it's loose, that's not good.

Oh that flywheel lifts right off, two units of mine do that.

Well, the flywheel should NOT "lift right off", it's pointless to have it if it's freely slipping on the shaft!

I see hundreds of motors a year crossing my workbench, if the flywheel on any of them "lifts right off", I fix it!

I don't disagree, this is what I got. Please see link.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1W5w87XqZjdbaM1b8

I had that center gear strip a couple of teeth, and went through the same gyrations that you are facing.  Two things:  -  the original trucks (2015-16) have plastic center gears.  The newer metal ones are brass, but blackened, and LOOK like the plastic ones;  so you have to tap on them to see if they are metal or plastic.

- the newer ones (current part number trucks where the plastic gear ones are shown as "No Longer Available") are a different gear ratio than the originals, run slower.  So you have to replace them in pairs as an earlier response indicated.

Finally,  I was successful in getting a "parts locomotive" for a good price from a person on this site.  AFTER I had ordered a set of trucks (of course).  But I got that one running too, and now have two RS-3s.

Thanks Mike.

I do want to restore this engine to service, and getting it going in reverse only is a big step in that direction! But it's not my only loco, so I can be a little pragmatic and wait for the ideal economic situation to present itself. Another half off sale, a parts loco, it will bear out.   

Chuck,

The gear is indeed cracked. Is Loctite still an option?

Attached.

A split gear will be problematic no matter what you do, time to put this one in it's proper place, the round file.  Wait for the new trucks, trying to use a split gear is a waste of time, and I've wasted lots of time trying!

The gear is shot. I see some distortion of the teeth by the crack and Loc-Tite won't fix that. The only option is replace the truck. The little speed variance between the 2 will be minimal and won't have much effect on running.

And the tribe has spoken, new trucks it is. 

Thanks again everyone. 

Unfortunately, I don't have one of these engines or gears, otherwise I'd check with these guys on seeing what they have to offer

bmoran4 posted:

Since this seems to be a pandemic, I wonder if NorthWest Short Line possibly has or could design a suitable replacement/upgrade?

https://nwsl.com/

Order Inquiries: sales@nwsl.com

Technical Support: tech@nwsl.com

This would take some research but Stock Drive Parts will have a gear. I have gotten gears from them but its not easy matching what you have. You can get close enough by counting the number of teeth and measuring outer diameter. Get one with a hole smaller than what you have and drill to fit.

https://www.sdp-si.com/products/Gears/Index.php

Pete

I’d buy an RS-3 IF it had ALCo trucks!

Jon  

Measure the diameter of your gear. If it is 1/2 inch. .468'' to be exact, center hole .141" Part number 600-8010-117. I have a replacement gear. Have another one, 610-8501-117 that is only .002" larger, same size hole. This one is white and list available North Lima Trainworks by Lionel. The first one 8010-117 is black and available from Lionel. $3.00. Contact me and I can send you one. $3.00 shipped. 

Forest, here is what I got.

But I can spare the 3 bucks! It's no big deal if it doesn't work out, that only sets me back a medium coffee!

Can we use Paypal please?

If it has the same number of teeth, it might work.

That's a "well used" tape measure you're using, looks like the end is about to rust off!

Thanks John! Yeah, it's been with me a while now, good eye!

In the interim, I gave my GP7 the ore hauling job, I got a RR to run.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If it has the same number of teeth, it might work.

That's a "well used" tape measure you're using, looks like the end is about to rust off!

I counted the teeth on the gear he posted. 17 teeth. Both of the ones I have 17 teeth. It all comes down to the center hole.

SeanG posted:

Forest, here is what I got.

But I can spare the 3 bucks! It's no big deal if it doesn't work out, that only sets me back a medium coffee!

Can we use Paypal please?

Email me. Paypal should work. Edit: I got your E-mail. A response is waiting.

I wonder if the loose flywheel contributed to your shot gear?  

Jon  

I just sent payment and shipping info, we're doing this!

Thanks again.

SeanG posted:

I just sent payment and shipping info, we're doing this!

Thanks again.

I got the payment. I was running around all day promoting our annual RR Club Open House and failed to make it to the Post Office in time. I will get it out in the morning.

Forest.

I’ve been following this post for a while and I just have to say how awesome it is to see a bunch of guys come together to solve an issue. To most people they would be, like oh well it’s broke, that’s crummy, and bash away. But here, although it is not the best design, everyone just pulls together to get this loco back on the roster. So cool to be involved with a great group of fellow railroaders.

Kudos!

Well put JDFONZ, I feel the same.

I'm honored to be a recipient of all this help, thank you to everyone for reading and posting. I am somewhat new to the hobby (been at it since 2013) and this forum has been a tremendous resource for help, guidance, some good-natured humor and a general sense of camaraderie.

Thanks again.

The jury's still out about getting it on the road, but the willingness to help is very gratifying.

Thanks John.

It won't be a showstopper if I can't get the RS3 going again. I've learned a lot this week and it's been interesting the whole way.

But, it will bring me to decision point on future acquisitions. I fell hard for the Lionchief line, it brought me running back to the hobby, wallet wide open! No regrets, and there has not been a change of heart, but there could be change of engine brand going forward now that the curtain has been drawn back a bit.

Sean, just to be clear, I don't believe this is an issue related to the LionChief tier of products as much as this particular drive train has some potential design issues. There are many other LionCief tier of products that do not use this drive train and are great fun. Any brand, product tier, manufacturer can be susceptible to this.

Another component of this hobby is maintenance/repair - you can't escape it so you might as well embrace it (it seems you are well on your way!)

Yes BMoran, I have come to the conclusion you can't just sit back and gaze wistfully at them running all the time!

I do know that in the real world trains break down and have to be repaired, so in for a penny, in for a pound. 

Comforting to know the LC line is not poisoned, thank you.

I do love the LC stuff, especially my Rio Grande FT AA units. Any time I get the pleasure of showing them off my guests just look on with slack-jawed awe!

I have several LC+ locomotives (all steamers except the RS-3's) - and only problem ever has been the PRR RS-3, which had the plastic gear train.  The broken tooth I had, I believe, was due to a piece of ballast getting picked up by the locomotive. 

The parts RS-3 I got (also a 2015 PRR) also has a plastic gear, but it is running well.  With the new trucks, my original one is running fine (slower and noisier with the new trucks than with the plastic trucks), so now I have 2 PRR RS-3's AND a (new design w/ metal drivetrain) Peabody Coat unit.

The LC+ locos are great, especially when kids are running the trains.  They have a challenge understanding and using TMCC and Legacy units.  The handheld, simple remote IS the best thing for kids, I have found, including "conventional" transformer control.

The two-motor diesel LC+ models have had an excessive amount of issues with drivetrain, but most of the LC+ steam has been very good.

Forest, thanks again for shipping that.

SeanG posted:

Forest, thanks again for shipping that.

It's on its way. The enveloped cost more than the part. 

Well, I am extremely happy to report that I received the part from Forest today, put the gear on, and I've got my train back!

I tested everything; forward, backward, the electrocouplers, bell, horn, and everything checks out.

And when the engineer announced "Train Is Moving" while testing the crew talk, well that was certainly the truth!

Thank you Forest, and everybody else who jumped in to read and post.

Have a great Thanksgiving everybody.

I am glad that it worked for you. Happy to see you got it running. I better hurry up and buy a few more gears before they are all sold out.

Forest. 

Good to know. Thanks.

Wanted to update this, especially now that I have discovered cloud video!

Thanks again Forest and everybody else as well.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XVL7jrgx2YMHsKfy8

There’s nothing better than fixing your own train. Everybody should try it. Great job Sean’s. 

Thanks Rod, I couldn't have done it without this forum and it's members.

The HO world had a cracked gear issue that had surfaced a few years ago. Old, made around 2000ish, Life Like Proto 2000 engines would have a thump while running,. The gear in the truck would crack. Delrin type plastic. Fortunately an Athearn gear would work and also A Line makes a replacement. It is nice to see yours came to a happy ending and it is nice but of information to keep in mind if (when) this happens to others.  

Which gear was the fix and is it still available? I have a LC+ SF GP7 with loose drive gear on rear truck.

Hey Super Chief, a fellow forum member, Forest, was good enough to provide me with the part, and it was part number 8010-117 which did the trick. However, I don't know if it is available in Lionel Parts or not.

SuperChiefer84 posted:

Which gear was the fix and is it still available? I have a LC+ SF GP7 with loose drive gear on rear truck.

Check Seang's post on the previous page. He posted a picture of the gear that I supplied him. If that is the same one you need reply here and then e-mail me. I think I might still be able to help you.

Forest.