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14683B24-38E2-44D5-8DC5-E48E73D51FE517AEB1EA-70F8-436C-B5CC-C73ED810404DCFAEF492-C82D-4834-A87E-E539C611DF438B305210-7022-43DB-A5B5-F536DF229417AEF997D2-56AE-4095-8C5D-52D9E54B33D482F81E63-C690-4FC4-8286-E62AC056C0088A113C2C-2378-484A-9670-5C228689A667As an addendum, I’m trying to lower a 1997 F3 A-B, and the process was similar, but a few differences.  I couldn’t find anything on this site for this version so here it goes…

Once getting the pilot off the trucks, I ground away all the frame supports as well as the tops of the “pins” for the truck detail.   I also enlarged the back hole.

once everything was assembled the two screws that hold the light assembly were in the way, so I just CA glued the light assembly onto its posts

I have some very thin kadee coupler washers that  I’m going to put on the pilot to keep the trucks turning smoothly and also raised the motor with two 4mm washers (~2.1mm thickness) CA glued in place

very easy to do and I think it esthetically made a huge difference without that gap between the body and frame and getting the scale height of the overall loco spot on (3.5”)

thx for all the previous helpful comments on this thread!

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Last edited by vacuefactor
@vacuefactor posted:

14683B24-38E2-44D5-8DC5-E48E73D51FE517AEB1EA-70F8-436C-B5CC-C73ED810404DCFAEF492-C82D-4834-A87E-E539C611DF438B305210-7022-43DB-A5B5-F536DF229417AEF997D2-56AE-4095-8C5D-52D9E54B33D4

82F81E63-C690-4FC4-8286-E62AC056C008

8A113C2C-2378-484A-9670-5C228689A667

As an addendum, I’m trying to lower a 1997 F3 A-B, and the process was similar, but a few differences.  I couldn’t find anything on this site for this version so here it goes…

Once getting the pilot off the trucks, I ground away all the frame supports as well as the tops of the “pins” for the truck detail.   I also enlarged the back hole.

once everything was assembled the two screws that hold the light assembly were in the way, so I just CA glued the light assembly onto its posts

I have some very thin kadee coupler washers that  I’m going to put on the pilot to keep the trucks turning smoothly and also raised the motor with two 4mm washers (~2.1mm thickness) CA glued in place

very easy to do and I think it esthetically made a huge difference without that gap between the body and frame and getting the scale height of the overall loco spot on (3.5”)

thx for all the previous helpful comments on this thread!

Nice job!

Mario…thank for the thumbs up!  

one thing I’m now noticing is that something still looks “off” even though the overall loco scale height is correct….and that’s the fuel tank.  

the bottom, even with the lowered frame, is roughly 4mm too high off the tracks vs the scaled emd blueprint height…which makes the loco still look “high” to my eye.    

Going to see if I can design and print something to help correct that…unless you’ve come across another idea already?

also, I couldn’t find a dimension (scale or actual) for the height of the leading edge of the pilot from the rail (this is a freight F3 if that means anything)  do you know what that might be?

Last edited by vacuefactor
@vacuefactor posted:

Mario…thank for the thumbs up!  

one thing I’m now noticing is that something still looks “off” even though the overall loco scale height is correct….and that’s the fuel tank.  

the bottom, even with the lowered frame, is roughly 4mm too high off the tracks vs the scaled emd blueprint height…which makes the loco still look “high” to my eye.    

Going to see if I can design and print something to help correct that…unless you’ve come across another idea already?

also, I couldn’t find a dimension (scale or actual) for the height of the leading edge of the pilot from the rail (this is a freight F3 if that means anything)  do you know what that might be?

Well... I do have a thread on lowering the Atlas F unit fuel tanks, here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/40004360285616739

I don't think it'll help us on this side, but it may give you something to shoot for as far as height off the rail.  As for the pilot, I use a Kadee coupler height gauge to measure the pilot off the rail...  the little shelf on the front is meant for trip pin adjustment, but I use the lower one for pilot height off the rail.

Thanks!

- Mario

Awesome.  Thx for that link.  I wish it were that easy for the lionel tanks…but they are one piece with the base frame.

i designed a “cap” that I think will work as a blend in and it will visually lower the base of the tank 4mm.    

Hope to print it out and test install it this weekend.  I’ll add pics and a link to the STL file onto the fuel tank thread if it goes ok!  

sorry…I mistyped.  I have the kadee gauge for the coupler.   I was trying to figure out the distance between the rail and the leading edge of the whole assembly. 8DE8B00A-3300-4739-8DD0-493EE69D0DE6

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Last edited by vacuefactor
Update on modifying the stock Lionel pilot height.
After installing a new part, the leading edge of the pilot dropped from 0.021" to 0.080" above the rail, putting it near the midpoint of scale accuracy (0.0625-0.125")
Additionally, the gigantic coupler opening was modified to scale size and set up to accommodate a Kadee 745 coupler + gearbox.
Both parts for the conversion were designed in Fusion360 and printed on the Anycubic Mono X.
After test fitting and grinding the parts into their final contour, all seams and irregularities were filled with uncured resin, light cured, and ground down to be flush with the existing pilot framework.
Before painting, all surfaces were sanded with 120, 200, 400, and 2000 grit to ensure a smooth surface.
In hindsight...it may have been easier just to cut off the pilot and 3D print an entirely new one vs. do these modifications, but nonetheless here's where things currently stand!
If you would like the .stl files to print so you can convert your own F3 (personal use only, please!), email me (ryantamburrino@gmail.com) and I'll get them to you. This loco is a Lionel FullSizeRender-2IMG_7862FullSizeRender-1IMG_7846IMG_7844IMG_7845IMG_7853IMG_7854IMG_7834IMG_78351997 TMCC equipped model, but I cannot see why it wouldn't work on other Lionel F3 or F7 versions.

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@vacuefactor, that is fantastic!  There are decades' worth of F units that could use what you've designed!

Excellent work!

Thanks,

- Mario

Thanks Mario!   Appreciate all the work you’ve done in this arena too!  

I have 4 other F3 sets…and it’s really hard to “unsee” all the inaccuracies in scale now that I know they exist…and can be fixed

anyone that wants the parts for their own models just have them get in touch…pilot conversion wasn’t hard but there’s a few nuances in installation to make it blend and not look like a fly by night patch job.

Last edited by vacuefactor

Tell me about it!  I even filled the gaps in the nose door with black epoxy so light doesn't leak through!

Wow. That pilot detail is great.  Passenger F3?    Trying to figure out when to put a coupler lift bar / air /brake / MU lines vs the pilot door.  

yes the small things make the biggest difference.  Nice when others appreciate it!

Last edited by vacuefactor
@vacuefactor posted:

Wow. That pilot detail is great.  Passenger F3?    Trying to figure out when to put a coupler lift bar / air /brake / MU lines vs the pilot door.  

yes the small things make the biggest difference.  Nice when others appreciate it!

There were a lot of detail changes on the NYC through its order history...  First, the FTs and F2s were delivered with freight pilots, and then starting with 1606, the F3s and first orders of F7s were delivered with passenger pilots, although they were not used for passenger service. 

The passenger pilots had the coupler cut bars behind the pilot, but the levers were on the side of the pilots, just below the "F"...

AFter a while, the doors were removed and the passenger pilots were left open, like your pilot.

L-to-R; F2s, F3s, F7s...

Be careful; it's a slippery slope!

Very nice array showing the differences.  Beautiful work!  

Since the one I’m doing is a freelance loco, I’m not tied to history except for the history I make up

however, my layout will be set in 1958, so I’m guessing the short line railroad will have likely purchased / got a deal on an older mid-40s f-unit (to stay in budget of course)…and am anticipating the pilot to look like the one on your F2 when done.  

the fuel tank “cap” I made for the lionel locos came out well too.  Should have it painted this week and will post it when done.

Well, to round out the thread, here's the fuel tank drop....

Wanted to lower the fuel tank 4mm to have it be in scale and eliminate the "highwater" look, but, unfortunately, the Lionel tank/frame are one solid assembly so I couldn't modify it easily like with adding the spacer you did for the Atlas unit.

One option was to glue a printed/styrene block section to the base, but the two screws that held the electronic boards in place showed through underneath and the base wasn't flat. Additionally, the sides of the existing tank were slightly tapered, so it wouldn't have lined up and looked funky.
Ended up designing a "cap" with interior tapered walls to place over the tank with recessed screw holes to hide the screw heads and make them do double duty...both hold the "cap" on and keep the electronics boards in place.
I'll sand the seam and feather the "cap" in better, then repaint the frame...but, for tonight, I'll call it good enough.
"Before" and "after" tank heights in the pics below!
IMG_7874IMG_7875IMG_7866IMG_7868IMG_7876

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Last edited by vacuefactor
Update....rear end of A unit conversion.
Mario...your bracket would have worked for the Kadee, but there was no way to also get a scale diaphragm in place too...so...
Had to completely "gut" the rear of the loco with both from the frame and body.
After designing, printing, and modifying several versions of the conversion bracket, I'm pretty happy with the final result 🙂   
Fortunately it will hold for the modification of the rear of the stock Lionel F3 A-unit and both sides of the B-unit.
I decided to add underframe piping to "hook up" to the P&D air line castings, and installed a magnet into the glad hand for eventual linking to the B-unit's line.
Have a few thoughts for creating linked MU lines, but that's for another day!
For now, though, I'm calling it a night.
At this point, the scale height conversion of the frame, pilot, rear end, and fuel tank is finally complete.
Comments, thoughts, oIMG_7953IMG_7954IMG_7952IMG_7891IMG_7886IMG_7888IMG_7887IMG_7955IMG_7956IMG_7949IMG_7950IMG_7951r questions are definitely welcome!

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Last edited by vacuefactor
@vacuefactor posted:
Update....rear end of A unit conversion.
Mario...your bracket would have worked for the Kadee, but there was no way to also get a scale diaphragm in place too...so...
Had to completely "gut" the rear of the loco with both from the frame and body.
After designing, printing, and modifying several versions of the conversion bracket, I'm pretty happy with the final result 🙂   
Fortunately it will hold for the modification of the rear of the stock Lionel F3 A-unit and both sides of the B-unit.
I decided to add underframe piping to "hook up" to the P&D air line castings, and installed a magnet into the glad hand for eventual linking to the B-unit's line.
Have a few thoughts for creating linked MU lines, but that's for another day!
For now, though, I'm calling it a night.
At this point, the scale height conversion of the frame, pilot, rear end, and fuel tank is finally complete.
Comments, thoughts, or questions are definitely welcome!
IMG_7953IMG_7954IMG_7952

That is a dramatic improvement, and extremely well engineered; congrats on the work that you've done!

Thanks!

- Mario

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